What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Florete]

12 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

I'm not playing for LTCs or speed-runs or Iron Mans

What? This has nothing to do with most people's dislike of the monastery.

[Use the Falchion]

6 hours ago, Florete said:

What? This has nothing to do with most people's dislike of the monastery.

I've seen it stated as a reason, but admittedly not a common one. My point is more that many people complain about it disrupting the gameplay for a myriad of reasons that I don't necessarily have or care for. 

[LJ_Reflet]

I'm pretty sure there's been a lot of discourse on this already, but here's my unpopular opinion:

I think Byleth should have been at least a little bit more customizable. I don't really mind that their appearance isn't customizable, but I wish they had customizable stats and weapon proficiencies at the least.

It would be nice to choose which weapons/movement types Byleth could be proficient in cause it would make building them a lot more versatile and make the process a lot less of a drag. Despite already having the ability to build Byleth however the player wants, it'd just make life easier if you could change up his boons so that the paths to, for example, Wyvern Lord or Dark Knight (which Byleth has none of the boons for) would be much smoother.

And I know it's very unpopular, but I think I personally would have enjoyed the avatar stat boon/bane mechanic that was present in Awakening and Fates for Byleth. I say this because I tried out a magic-Byleth once and it was quite upsetting since his magic was never high enough, and I think bringing back the boons/banes again would once again add more versatility.

Byleth is supposed to be an avatar character anyways, as opposed to other main characters like Alm for example, so I don't think that more customization would be unfitting.

Edited August 30, 2021 by LJ_Tenma

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 hours ago, LJ_Tenma said:

I think Byleth should have been at least a little bit more customizable. I don't really mind that their appearance isn't customizable, but I wish they had customizable stats and weapon proficiencies at the least.

Not sure this one is unpopular. I mean, I agree, and I've found it to be a common point in discussion of Three Houses. Teach may be the most avatar-like in narrative (in that you can control their dialogue), but the least avatar-like in terms of gameplay (all priors have customizable stats and classes).

[Cosmic_Dragon]

Okay, not really sure if this counts as an "unpopular" opinion nowadays, but I don't really think that Robin/Lucina is "creepy" or "wrong" like some people say it is, and I say that as someone who doesn't ship them together (I prefer pairing Robin with Cherche). Now, I know that this is one of those cases where it comes mostly down to everyone's own perspectives, but I don't really see the arguments against the pairing. Or well, I guess it'd be more accurate to say that I do see them but don't really agree with them.

I mean, for one, people say it "breaks the bro code" and I'm not really sure whether they're just joking when they say that, but in the case they're not, I... really don't see how? I mean, how is Robin sincerely falling in love with Lucina akin to betraying Chrom's trust in any way? I'd agree if Robin's interest in Lucina was purely sexual in nature, or if he was just using her to make some kind of ends meet (but that sounds more like Grima than anything), but the bond Robin and Lucina can form comes from a place of genuine affection and care for one another. Don't see why Chrom would be opposed to that.

Another argument I see being thrown around in there is "he knew her as a baby!", but (and this might be REALLY controversial), I don't really understand why that apparently matters so much? I mean, yeah, he may have known her as a baby for a little while, but the Lucina he's falling in love with is one that is grown and is a young woman, it's not like she's a kid whom he personally raised and groomed with the intention of making her his girlfriend later on (hell, he didn't even see her growing up as a kid), or like he somehow fell in love with her baby self a la Jacob Black.

Again, I understand this is all up to personal opinion, I'm not saying that my thoughts are Word of God or anything, (and granted, for all I know some people might just be joking with those takes), anyone's free to disagree with me, just putting the thought out there.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Cosmic_Dragon

[vanguard333]

19 minutes ago, Cosmic_Dragon said:

I mean, for one, people say it "breaks the bro code" and I'm not really sure whether they're just joking when they say that, but in the case they're not, I... really don't see how? I mean, how is Robin sincerely falling in love with Lucina akin to betraying Chrom's trust in any way? I'd agree if Robin's interest in Lucina was purely sexual in nature, or if he was just using her to make some kind of ends meet (but that sounds more like Grima than anything), but the bond Robin and Lucina can form comes from a place of genuine affection and care for one another. Don't see why Chrom would be opposed to that.

I'm pretty sure that people are usually joking when they say that Robin's "breaking the bro code". I've seen a ton of different jokes along that line, and I only ever see jokes about it; never serious arguments. A lot of people evidently think that it's funny.

Even the other argument you mentioned is also used for humour more often than not. If you don't believe me, I could list examples. But honestly, all you have to do is look at the comments section under a video showing Robin and Lucina's s-support; almost all the comments are different variations of these three jokes:

1. Robin is breaking the bro code (often with the punchline involving Chrom behaving like a stereotypical overprotective dad)

2. Robin being in a room with Baby Lucina and feeling awkward

3. Chrom is now a grandfather

[X-Naut]

I think the Robin/Child pairings can be called into question with another question: Why is Robin the only first gen character that can marry second gen characters? If these children are adults then why aren't they pairing up with the other adults?

I'm sketchy on Avatar pairings in general, especially when people try to assert a "best", because of the self-insert self-indulgence factor. This bit plays into that, but it also challenges the notion that this is ethically okay, at least in-universe.

[Ottservia]

2 hours ago, X-Naut said:

I think the Robin/Child pairings can be called into question with another question: Why is Robin the only first gen character that can marry second gen characters? If these children are adults then why aren't they pairing up with the other adults?

I'm sketchy on Avatar pairings in general, especially when people try to assert a "best", because of the self-insert self-indulgence factor. This bit plays into that, but it also challenges the notion that this is ethically okay, at least in-universe.

I mean at the end of the day it’s just wish fulfillment for lonely otaku to feel better about themselves. Nothing wrong with that. It’s fiction and if people wanna use fiction to indulge in their fantasies then why not let them so long as they aren’t hurting anyone 

[Cosmic_Dragon]

12 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I'm pretty sure that people are usually joking when they say that Robin's "breaking the bro code". I've seen a ton of different jokes along that line, and I only ever see jokes about it; never serious arguments. A lot of people evidently think that it's funny.

Even the other argument you mentioned is also used for humour more often than not. If you don't believe me, I could list examples. But honestly, all you have to do is look at the comments section under a video showing Robin and Lucina's s-support; almost all the comments are different variations of these three jokes

Thanks for clearing that up. It's just that it's kinda hard to tell (for me at least) who's joking and who's being serious on the internet nowadays, especially with how sensitive some people in the FE fandom can be when it comes to shipping.

[Etrurian emperor]

9 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean at the end of the day it’s just wish fulfillment for lonely otaku to feel better about themselves. Nothing wrong with that. It’s fiction and if people wanna use fiction to indulge in their fantasies then why not let them so long as they aren’t hurting anyone 

That depends on who you are. If you have a low tolerance for Otaku related tropes than it might be rather vexing to see it intrude into series you like. 

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That depends on who you are. If you have a low tolerance for Otaku related tropes than it might be rather vexing to see it intrude into series you like. 

I mean I just see it as an inevitability considering the people making these games are likely otaku themselves. You have to realize that these games are made by Japanese nerds so seeing those kinds of things crop up in the media they create is inevitable 

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean I just see it as an inevitability considering the people making these games are likely otaku themselves. You have to realize that these games are made by Japanese nerds so seeing those kinds of things crop up in the media they create is inevitable 

Nah, these games are made under the purview of capaitalists who have clinically determined the most optimal things to put in a game in order to receive maximum profits.

[Etrurian emperor]

15 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean I just see it as an inevitability considering the people making these games are likely otaku themselves. You have to realize that these games are made by Japanese nerds so seeing those kinds of things crop up in the media they create is inevitable 

That certainly plays a part in the sense that there was a team B which was really striving to put such things in. But there was also a group A who felt they needed to reign that in. I also suspect the marketing department has a much larger say in what gets in a game then the ones actually making it. 

[Ottservia]

20 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That certainly plays a part in the sense that there was a team B which was really striving to put such things in. But there was also a group A who felt they needed to reign that in. I also suspect the marketing department has a much larger say in what gets in a game then the ones actually making it. 

The whole A and B team is actually a misconception. If I recall the A and B team thing was only for the Live2D stuff. I don’t necessarily remember the specifics. Secondly, I doubt marketing has that big of a say in the matter. From what little I understand about Japanese game development the one with the final say on anything is the director(being Maeda in this case) and everyone else just has to go along with what they say is and isn’t allowed. Then again until we have actual statements from the staff themselves this is all only speculative. But still it wouldn’t surprise me if a vast majority of the people who worked on these games were otaku themselves. I mean just look at Sakurai. He’s one of the biggest video games nerds you’ll ever meet and he’s one of the most influential directors in the industry.

and if you also wanna view it from a political angle, loneliness is a very big problem in Japan to the point where there is an administrative executive for it in the government. It’s why services like renting a girlfriend and stuff exist over there. All this stemming from Japan’s unhealthy work culture. So if you want anything to blame then blame that.

[Venger_06]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That certainly plays a part in the sense that there was a team B which was really striving to put such things in. But there was also a group A who felt they needed to reign that in. I also suspect the marketing department has a much larger say in what gets in a game then the ones actually making it. 

But this was for Fates, not Awakening.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

The whole A and B team is actually a misconception. If I recall the A and B team thing was only for the Live2D stuff. I don’t necessarily remember the specifics. Secondly, I doubt marketing has that big of a say in the matter. From what little I understand about Japanese game development the one with the final say on anything is the director(being Maeda in this case) and everyone else just has to go along with what they say is and isn’t allowed. Then again until we have actual statements from the staff themselves this is all only speculative. But still it wouldn’t surprise me if a vast majority of the people who worked on these games were otaku themselves. I mean just look at Sakurai. He’s one of the biggest video games nerds you’ll ever meet and he’s one of the most influential directors in the industry.

and if you also wanna view it from a political angle, loneliness is a very big problem in Japan to the point where there is an administrative executive for it in the government. It’s why services like renting a girlfriend and stuff exist over there. All this stemming from Japan’s unhealthy work culture. So if you want anything to blame then blame that.

Sakurai is also openly at the behest of the producers though (ie Nintendo). The producers are always the ones who dictate how things really go as that's where the money comes from.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Sakurai is also openly at the behest of the producers though (ie Nintendo). The producers are always the ones who dictate how things really go as that's where the money comes from.

Well that’s also because smash is a huge money maker for Nintendo. Fire Emblem is relatively niche by comparison. I won’t say producer meddling doesn’t happen but when compared to the juggernaut that is smash I doubt it’s as bad as with what Sakurai has to deal with. And even then smash is made for mass market appeal. Fire Emblem by comparison is made to appeal to a specific subset of people not nearly as large which overlap with fanbases typically full of Otaku like seinen anime and jrpgs. also Fire Emblem has always appealed to a seinen/josei demographic even since the beginning. The difference now is that what those audiences are into has changed. Though I suppose you can still kind of see the Berserk influences particularly in characters like Dimitri.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Well that’s also because smash is a huge money maker for Nintendo. Fire Emblem is relatively niche by comparison. I won’t say producer meddling doesn’t happen but when compared to the juggernaut that is smash I doubt it’s as bad as with what Sakurai has to deal with. And even then smash is made for mass market appeal. Fire Emblem by comparison is made to appeal to a specific subset of people not nearly as large which overlap with fanbases typically full of Otaku like seinen anime and jrpgs. also Fire Emblem has always appealed to a seinen/josei demographic even since the beginning. The difference now is that what those audiences are into has changed. Though I suppose you can still kind of see the Berserk influences particularly in characters like Dimitri.

I'm not saying Nintendo directly determines the way Fire Emblem games are made, but the same sort of people do. It's all business. These things are made to make money and you can betcha there are people analysing market research of exactly which elements across the industry as a whole work and don't work.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

The whole A and B team is actually a misconception. If I recall the A and B team thing was only for the Live2D stuff. I don’t necessarily remember the specifics. Secondly, I doubt marketing has that big of a say in the matter. From what little I understand about Japanese game development the one with the final say on anything is the director(being Maeda in this case) and everyone else just has to go along with what they say is and isn’t allowed. Then again until we have actual statements from the staff themselves this is all only speculative. But still it wouldn’t surprise me if a vast majority of the people who worked on these games were otaku themselves. I mean just look at Sakurai. He’s one of the biggest video games nerds you’ll ever meet and he’s one of the most influential directors in the industry.

That's the example they gave but I think you can see this push and pull between ''moderates'' and ''hardliners'' a lot in the game. Its easy to spot a lot of compromises or aspects the devs couldn't really agree on.

There are aspects of Fates that must have been demanded by the marketing department. I suspect the Hoshidans not being your siblings after all was decreed to avoid depriving any shipper of their preferred outcome for instance, and the second gens seem like something tacked on at the very last moment when the marketing team gave a memo about how popular they were last time around. A lot of it is speculation to be sure, but there's a lot to feed such speculation.

There's also a difference between being an otaku and putting such tropes in your game. There's probably also a difference between otaku's and big video game nerds. Whichever of the two he is Sakurai is mostly a ''wholesome'' creator. Smash being for ''good boys and girls'' and all that, and even the more niche Kid Icarus where Sakurai would have had more free reign is very innocent. 

Yoko Taro of Nier fame is on the record as being an otaku but he hasn't really gone for the common trope. You can see a bit of otaku traits in 2b's outfit but at no point does Nier ever decide he wants to have some skinship with his real little sister. In fact rather than the very standard otaku tropes he even takes the more risky decisions for his character designs, things even the west would probably find too risky a lot of the time. 

 

Quote

Fire Emblem by comparison is made to appeal to a specific subset of people not nearly as large which overlap with fanbases typically full of Otaku like seinen anime and jrpgs. also Fire Emblem has always appealed to a seinen/josei demographic even since the beginning. The difference now is that what those audiences are into has changed. Though I suppose you can still kind of see the Berserk influences particularly in characters like Dimitri.

There are tropes in anime and jrpg's that are very appealing to otakus. But there are also many fans who aren't into that and who often role their eyes at certain conventions that draw in otakus. So its a balance to maintain. Doubling down too much on otaku tropes can be lucrative since Otaku spend more but it can also drive other fans away. 

So it things companies must be very careful with or they risk splitting their fanbase. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[NaotoUzumaki]

To me threes houses world building is shit and character are never called out on their bs problems. Look at Rhea, she expiremented on people for her mother’s return but banned technology to avoid second coming of zanado but Solon managed to infiltrate her church. She made nemesis 10 elites heroes and never told the truth of it until way too late to be impactful. Hell she censored history for her benefit and the church is supposed to be a neutral party but they have an insane mommy girl who leads and when people question her about her misdeeds on Byleth she silences them. That not world building this is deus ex machina to fit the plot to make her the good route. Say what you will about fates world building but at the very they were honest about its lore being shitty unlike fodlan trying to sweep it under the rug with other mechanics and gameplay to hide it. Hell the Agarthan/Nabatean is just a massive cat fight of “ no your wrong fuck you and die for about a millennia 

[Ottservia]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

There's also a difference between being an otaku and putting such tropes in your game. There's probably also a difference between otaku's and big video game nerds. Whichever of the two he is Sakurai is mostly a ''wholesome'' creator. Smash being for ''good boys and girls'' and all that, and even the more niche Kid Icarus where Sakurai would have had more free reign is very innocent. 

Yoko Taro of Nier fame is on the record as being an otaku but he hasn't really gone for the common trope. You can see a bit of otaku traits in 2b's outfit but at no point does Nier ever decide he wants to have some skinship with his real little sister. In fact rather than the very standard otaku tropes he even takes the more risky decisions for his character designs, things even the west would probably find too risky a lot of the time. 

Technically no there isn’t because an Otaku is defined as a person with an unhealthy obsession with something on the level of autistic special interests. It’s basically Japan’s word for nerd, geek, basement dweller, whatever. There’s a lot of overlap between those special interests mind you which leads to overlap of different otaku communities like for example idol otaku are likely gonna be pretty big anime fans as well. Even so, do you really think Sakurai isn’t Otaku? The man is the one who helped design Palutena’s modern design and also fought against not being able to put panty shots in smash. I’m just saying. Also nier doesn’t have those tropes because Yoko Taro didn’t want to put them there. It’s as simple as that. The FE dev team clearly did tho.

 

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That's the example they gave but I think you can see this push and pull between ''moderates'' and ''hardliners'' a lot in the game. Its easy to spot a lot of compromises or aspects the devs couldn't really agree on.

There are aspects of Fates that must have been demanded by the marketing department. I suspect the Hoshidans not being your siblings after all was decreed to avoid depriving any shipper of their preferred outcome for instance, and the second gens seem like something tacked on at the very last moment when the marketing team gave a memo about how popular they were last time around. A lot of it is speculation to be sure, but there's a lot to feed such speculation.

Yeah but it’s still speculative. Sure, there’s enough evidence there to make the argument but what I don’t like about it is the general dismissiveness of the argument as if that’s the only reason those things were put into the game. It could’ve been but there could also be another reason and I don’t think we should dismiss the possibility of those reasons without trying to find them first. Maybe there is a deeper meaning to it all and you’re just not seeing it that is totally possible. 

 

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

There are tropes in anime and jrpg's that are very appealing to otakus. But there are also many fans who aren't into that and who often role their eyes at certain conventions that draw in otakus. So its a balance to maintain. Doubling down too much on otaku tropes can be lucrative since Otaku spend more but it can also drive other fans away. 

So it things companies must be very careful with or they risk splitting their fanbase. 

True, but you also have to remember that at its core Fire Emblem is still a Japanese game developed by Japanese nerds. The fact that they play into a lot of tropes found in other Japanese media even ones made specifically for Otaku is an inevitability. Especially because the majority people playing these games are other Japanese nerds. You don’t have to like it but that’s just how it works. I just don’t like people being dismissive of that context to bolster some kind of weird ethnocentric moral highground.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Ottservia

[Cosmic_Dragon]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

True, but you also have to remember that at its core Fire Emblem is still a Japanese game developed by Japanese nerds. The fact that they play into a lot of tropes found in other Japanese media even ones made specifically for Otaku is an inevitability. Especially because the majority people playing these games are other Japanese nerds. You don’t have to like it but that’s just how it works. I just don’t like people being dismissive of that context to bolster some kind of weird ethnocentric moral highground.

Personally, I don't see why one should be discouraged by that. I mean, even if something is made by Japanese nerds for other Japanese nerds, I don't think that's any reason for why someone out of that audience wouldn't find something they enjoy from that.

Like you said, there's always the possibility of things having a deeper meaning, and whether someone finds that deeper meaning on something that seems to be made solely to "pander to otakus", well that's entirely up to people. Everyone can have their own perspective on things they like and things they don't, and whether someone else finds that agreeable or not it doesn't really have to take away validity from your own opinion. I mean, another apparently unpopular opinion from me (or maybe it's not, really don't know how to gauge these things), I like the Byleth/Rhea pair and think it's one of the best endings in Three Houses. That doesn't change the fact that some people find it rather distasteful or think it's just a kink, and well, I can't really go around telling people what to think, I just don't agree with that and have my reasons for liking the pairing (and while I personally think it's one of the best endings, I won't say it should be that for everyone else), but if someone wants to think like that, they're welcome to it.

My point is, there's many opinions out there, but something being made "for otakus" by other Japanese nerds doesn't mean someone who isn't that can't find some deeper meaning in said tropes, or that it's wrong to like them even if they don't find anything of the sort. I mean, I don't really ship Corrin/Camilla, but I won't say that it's wrong for someone else to ship them either. Yeah, their interactions were clearly meant to invoke the "mommy kink" trope, but I mean, someone else who does like that pair could also be seeing something that I (or other people) are missing, and that's pretty cool really (at least, I think it is).

[Ottservia]

38 minutes ago, Cosmic_Dragon said:

Personally, I don't see why one should be discouraged by that. I mean, even if something is made by Japanese nerds for other Japanese nerds, I don't think that's any reason for why someone out of that audience wouldn't find something they enjoy from that.

Like you said, there's always the possibility of things having a deeper meaning, and whether someone finds that deeper meaning on something that seems to be made solely to "pander to otakus", well that's entirely up to people. Everyone can have their own perspective on things they like and things they don't, and whether someone else finds that agreeable or not it doesn't really have to take away validity from your own opinion. I mean, another apparently unpopular opinion from me (or maybe it's not, really don't know how to gauge these things), I like the Byleth/Rhea pair and think it's one of the best endings in Three Houses. That doesn't change the fact that some people find it rather distasteful or think it's just a kink, and well, I can't really go around telling people what to think, I just don't agree with that and have my reasons for liking the pairing (and while I personally think it's one of the best endings, I won't say it should be that for everyone else), but if someone wants to think like that, they're welcome to it.

My point is, there's many opinions out there, but something being made "for otakus" by other Japanese nerds doesn't mean someone who isn't that can't find some deeper meaning in said tropes, or that it's wrong to like them even if they don't find anything of the sort. I mean, I don't really ship Corrin/Camilla, but I won't say that it's wrong for someone else to ship them either. Yeah, their interactions were clearly meant to invoke the "mommy kink" trope, but I mean, someone else who does like that pair could also be seeing something that I (or other people) are missing, and that's pretty cool really (at least, I think it is).

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here because you’re kind of preaching to the choir. When did I ever imply that it isn’t okay for other perspectives to exist? I never did. Quite the opposite in fact. My point is the exact same as yours in that we shouldn’t be dismissive of other perspectives especially the ones involving how the work was created in the first place. Again, keep in mind these games are made by Japanese nerds for Japanese nerds and that context shouldn’t be ignored or disrespected. Whether you like it or not that’s a matter of personal preference but that’s a fact that cannot be denied and it’s important to keep that context in mind when criticizing it. Because at the end of the day we’re analyzing the work of a foreign country which needs to be looked at through the lens of that country’s cultural beliefs and values because those are inevitable influences on that work. I’m not saying that the Japanese perspective is the only perspective but it is an important when trying to understand a piece of art that comes from Japan.

[vanguard333]

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Technically no there isn’t because an Otaku is defined as a person with an unhealthy obsession with something on the level of autistic special interests. It’s basically Japan’s word for nerd, geek, basement dweller, whatever. There’s a lot of overlap between those special interests mind you which leads to overlap of different otaku communities like for example idol otaku are likely gonna be pretty big anime fans as well. Even so, do you really think Sakurai isn’t Otaku? The man is the one who helped design Palutena’s modern design and also fought against not being able to put panty shots in smash. I’m just saying. Also nier doesn’t have those tropes because Yoko Taro didn’t want to put them there. It’s as simple as that. The FE dev team clearly did tho.

I am autistic, and I'm a bit confused as to what you're referring to by, "autistic special interests".

[Ottservia]

12 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I am autistic, and I'm a bit confused as to what you're referring to by, "autistic special interests".

You know how autistic people can hyper fixate on something to the point where they become complete experts in that subject like being able to memorize all the roads in california or more relatably be able to recite almost every fact about a specific animal, tv show, or video game. Stuff like that.