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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?


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1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

You know how autistic people can hyper fixate on something to the point where they become complete experts in that subject like being able to memorize all the roads in california or more relatably be able to recite almost every fact about a specific animal, tv show, or video game. Stuff like that.

Ah; that's what you meant. Ah; that's far more common with people on the opposite end of the autism spectrum than me; the form of autism I have mainly amounts to stuff like increased difficulty in learning social skills, sensitive hearing, and being a bit better at memorization than I probably would be without it.

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11 hours ago, Ottservia said:

True, but you also have to remember that at its core Fire Emblem is still a Japanese game developed by Japanese nerds. The fact that they play into a lot of tropes found in other Japanese media even ones made specifically for Otaku is an inevitability. Especially because the majority people playing these games are other Japanese nerds. You don’t have to like it but that’s just how it works. I just don’t like people being dismissive of that context to bolster some kind of weird ethnocentric moral highground.

I don't find the idea of treating Japan and Japanese nerds as a monolith much less ethnocentric. Context is important, yes, including the culture in and for which something is made, and these games are for Japanese nerds, but that doesn't mean that all Japanese nerds want to reduce female characters to their little waifus, or else no other kind of content would get made. This particular subtype of otaku are just the ones who spend the most, so they get pandered to (and thus get more visibility, and the group grows, and gets more pandering, etc).

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And just because someone makes this stuff doesn't mean they're actually into it. Miyazaki famously hates oktaku culture, yet has made some of the most beloved and I inspirational films in nerd circles. I'd say most of the people working on these games are (very) hard working family men who just like video games in general.  And I think you can see specifically that the modern staff of IS are people that grew up playing the original Fire Emblem games, chiefly with how overly loyal Shadows of Valentia was to Gaiden and with the attempt to recapture Jugdral in Three Houses.

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12 hours ago, Ottservia said:

True, but you also have to remember that at its core Fire Emblem is still a Japanese game developed by Japanese nerds. The fact that they play into a lot of tropes found in other Japanese media even ones made specifically for Otaku is an inevitability. Especially because the majority people playing these games are other Japanese nerds. You don’t have to like it but that’s just how it works. I just don’t like people being dismissive of that context to bolster some kind of weird ethnocentric moral highground.

The bolded part just isn't true. Modern Fire Emblem sells significantly more copies internatinally than in Japan. According to Nintendo's own data, Awakening had sold 0.5M in Japan and 1.4M internationally; Fates had sold 0.5M in Japan and 1.1M internationally; Three Houses sold 0.58M in Japan and 2.29M internationally. (source 1, source 2). (While the absolute sales figures have likely increased a little since those reports, I don't see any reason to suspect that the ratio of Japanese to internatioinal sales has shifted meaningfully.)

Indeed, the 2017 document specifically states that "[Fire Emblem] has become especially popular overseas since the titles on the Nintendo 3DS." Japanese nerds are no longer the primary audience for Fire Emblem, and Nintendo knows it.

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9 hours ago, Ottservia said:

You know how autistic people can hyper fixate on something to the point where they become complete experts in that subject like being able to memorize all the roads in california or more relatably be able to recite almost every fact about a specific animal, tv show, or video game. Stuff like that.

I think the term your looking for is Savant?

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11 hours ago, Jotari said:

Samurai's not otaku. He has a wife!

I mean so does the creator of nekopara(though in her case it’s a husband) and if you know what nekopara is well that fact may be a little surprising. She’s also a prominent member a pretty popular doujin group and she’s married with like 2 kids. The mangaka of “To Rent A Girlfriend” is married and that’s like an ecchi harem series. I’m just saying.

 

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

And just because someone makes this stuff doesn't mean they're actually into it. Miyazaki famously hates oktaku culture, yet has made some of the most beloved and I inspirational films in nerd circles. I'd say most of the people working on these games are (very) hard working family men who just like video games in general.  And I think you can see specifically that the modern staff of IS are people that grew up playing the original Fire Emblem games, chiefly with how overly loyal Shadows of Valentia was to Gaiden and with the attempt to recapture Jugdral in Three Houses.

I mean still doesn’t change the fact that they’re nerds. Also Maeda’s favorite female character in awakening is Tharja so that kind of explains a lot as to the kinds of things he likes. Also keep in mind the director of both 3H and SoV also drew bunny Loki in feh arguably the most horny design in that game. 

 

4 hours ago, Kori said:

I don't find the idea of treating Japan and Japanese nerds as a monolith much less ethnocentric. Context is important, yes, including the culture in and for which something is made, and these games are for Japanese nerds, but that doesn't mean that all Japanese nerds want to reduce female characters to their little waifus, or else no other kind of content would get made. This particular subtype of otaku are just the ones who spend the most, so they get pandered to (and thus get more visibility, and the group grows, and gets more pandering, etc).

But they aren’t doing that. To some degree they are, but to reduce these characters down to “shallow waifu bait” says more about you than the work in question. Regardless, you can’t create art without being a fan of art and it’s clear to me that these developers watch a lot of anime or read a lot of manga/light novels which is why you see so many common tropes of those things found in their games. I mean the fact that every FE game has an Ojou in it kind of speaks for itself. Also I remember hearing Kaga himself was inspired by the likes of Gundam. And you cannot convince me that Ike wasn’t at least somewhat inspired by Guts. The influence is apparent and even Miyazaki himself has stated that there are too many otaku in the industry. I’m just saying the fact that these tropes exist at all in these games shouldn’t come as a surprise honestly. What I mean to say is that because these games are made in Japan you shouldn’t be surprised they want to pander to Japanese audiences nor should they be looked down upon because of it.

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55 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

The mangaka of “To Rent A Girlfriend” is married and that’s like an ecchi harem series.

Rent-A-Girlfriend is a romcom, not a harem and/or ecchi series.

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31 minutes ago, Ghost_06_ said:

Rent-A-Girlfriend is a romcom, not a harem and/or ecchi series.

Is it I was under the impression that it was at least a harem series but I stand corrected 

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21 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Technically no there isn’t because an Otaku is defined as a person with an unhealthy obsession with something on the level of autistic special interests. It’s basically Japan’s word for nerd, geek, basement dweller, whatever. There’s a lot of overlap between those special interests mind you which leads to overlap of different otaku communities like for example idol otaku are likely gonna be pretty big anime fans as well. Even so, do you really think Sakurai isn’t Otaku? The man is the one who helped design Palutena’s modern design and also fought against not being able to put panty shots in smash. I’m just saying. Also nier doesn’t have those tropes because Yoko Taro didn’t want to put them there. It’s as simple as that. The FE dev team clearly did tho.

I think its mostly a question of semantics. One could view otaku's as the Japanese equivalent for nerds but I think its more common not to just view them as nerds, but instead nerds on steroids. Not just a big nerd you'd see in every day life but an extreme version of that which basically shuts himself off entirely.

Sakurai seems too....mmh well adjusted for lack of a better phrase to be an otaku, or at least an otaku in how their reputation depicts them as. He always seems presentable, has indicated to have a social life and his passion usually comes across more as wholesome than obsessive. And while Palutena certainly has an objectively attractive design and certain reasons why you shouldn't google her in the work place for I don't think her design is very otaku inspired. There's some degree of fanservice but relatively mild and more the sort anime has always had rather than the more extreme otaku variant. As a whole Kid Icarus wears its anime inspiration on its sleeve but it still comes across more as a kiddy Saterday morning cartoon than an Otaku inspired show. 

21 hours ago, Ottservia said:

True, but you also have to remember that at its core Fire Emblem is still a Japanese game developed by Japanese nerds. The fact that they play into a lot of tropes found in other Japanese media even ones made specifically for Otaku is an inevitability. Especially because the majority people playing these games are other Japanese nerds. You don’t have to like it but that’s just how it works. I just don’t like people being dismissive of that context to bolster some kind of weird ethnocentric moral highground.

Fire Emblem has always had anime influences and I think that's why its western and eastern fans alike appreciate the series. But there's a difference between standard anime influences and ''skinship with your little sister and by the way there's this letter mom gave me...''. It stands to reason that even people who really like the anime influences would be very uncomfortable with those new influences. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think its mostly a question of semantics. One could view otaku's as the Japanese equivalent for nerds but I think its more common not to just view them as nerds, but instead nerds on steroids. Not just a big nerd you'd see in every day life but an extreme version of that which basically shuts himself off entirely.

Not really because that is the literal definition of the term. The only reason the words otaku and nerd aren’t quite synonymous is because of the cultural implications associated with each one. A “nerd on steroids” as you call them is more akin to what you would call a hikkikamori or neet because they are actual shut ins which is what hikkikamori translates to. An Otaku is more akin to an obsessive comic book collector or movie buff. Someone who owns every piece of star wars merchandise, DVD, VHS, comic, etc. and could recite the entirety of the lore to you with 100% accuracy that’s the equivalent of what an Otaku is over here. 

 

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Sakurai seems too....mmh well adjusted for lack of a better phrase to be an otaku, or at least an otaku in how their reputation depicts them as. He always seems presentable, has indicated to have a social life and his passion usually comes across more as wholesome than obsessive. And while Palutena certainly has an objectively attractive design and certain reasons why you shouldn't google her in the work place for I don't think her design is very otaku inspired. There's some degree of fanservice but relatively mild and more the sort anime has always had rather than the more extreme otaku variant. As a whole Kid Icarus wears its anime inspiration on its sleeve but it still comes across more as a kiddy Saterday morning cartoon than an Otaku inspired show. 

It’s not like most Otaku aren’t well adjusted. A lot of them hold stable jobs and have families. Again, the creator of Nekopara has a husband with 2 kids. On your kid icarus point there could be a number of reasons for the lack of extreme pandering the most prominent is the age rating and the fact that it’s on a Nintendo system. You can only get away with so much. There is also the target demographic to consider. Is it for a shounen audience? Or a seinen one? Which again dictates what you can get away with. You also have localization to consider which leads into my next point. Kid icarus is very self-aware and self-referential a staple in a lot otaku media nowadays. A lot of that humor could’ve been lost in translation for example you can’t convince me they didn’t outright call Viridi a tsundere in the Japanese script. Tsundere as a term does not translate at all into English so treehouse might’ve decided to change the script of that portion entirely. Though again this is mostly speculative because the audience they were aiming may not understand what that word means. For a similar FE example, in the hot springs scramble dlc Morgan says that boys these days are into “girls who are tough on the outside but sweet on the inside” which is essentially what a tsundere is which makes me wonder if Morgan actually outright called Severa  a “tsundere” in the original Japanese script and 8-4 just decided to translate it in the way they did. The whole “Saturday morning cartoon” vibe you described could’ve just been a result of localization and knowing treehouse it likely was.

 

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Fire Emblem has always had anime influences and I think that's why its western and eastern fans alike appreciate the series. But there's a difference between standard anime influences and ''skinship with your little sister and by the way there's this letter mom gave me...''. It stands to reason that even people who really like the anime influences would be very uncomfortable with those new influences. 

True but that’s not gonna stop the developers from implementing those things, now is it? Well unless of course they receive immense backlash for it like they did for the petting minigame in fates. 

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8 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean so does the creator of nekopara(though in her case it’s a husband) and if you know what nekopara is well that fact may be a little surprising. She’s also a prominent member a pretty popular doujin group and she’s married with like 2 kids. The mangaka of “To Rent A Girlfriend” is married and that’s like an ecchi harem series. I’m just saying.

Yeah, that was a joke.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/28/2021 at 1:00 PM, Use the Falchion said:

I like the Monastery in Three Houses. 

 

I'm not playing for LTCs or speed-runs or Iron Mans, so the adding of stuff to do in the game that allows me to not only immerse myself in the game, but also get to know the characters, is always a win for me. This is one of the biggest things I love about the Mass Effect games as well, particularly 2 & 3 - I can travel around the ship (and 3, the Citadel as well) and talk to my crew between missions. I'd get a sense of how they're doing, what they're feeling, and what their relationship with Shepard, the war, and the world itself is like. They wouldn't always have new dialogue, but it was good to see. ME 3 even added some incentives to do this, like having a choice of Bonus Powers. 

Me too. It was nice to see how people would react to what was happening throughout the game.

Come to think about it, there are two things that I really enjoyed with Three Houses:

  • Koei Techmo calling on IS's bullshit addiction with male lord worship was just simply way overdue. Even though there were some rough edges around, I'm really glad Edelgard's story was the way it was, and I'm also glad that CYL voters voted for her. Hopefully this would be a wakeup call for IS to stop treating female lords as just some afterthought and start giving them the proper treatment in their own right.
    • Yes, I don't have a massive problem with Edie waging war, at least not from a story-writing view. People did that for the majority of history for far more selfish reasons (*1), even the Catholic Church joined in on the fun (*2), and there's good evidence that sometimes fundemental change only happens with big upheavals on society. (*3) Besides, even if all of that wasn't the case, she's fictional. People need to calm down and just accept that it's just a story. 
  • I enjoyed having to walk around the monastery to find out info about Fodlan. It feels more like I'm being an archaeologist or a historian.

*1 - Britain's Opium War against China, and the subsequent colonization of Hong Kong, which is now (or at least until last year) ironically cherished as the last bastion of democracy in China.
*2 - As a general entry knowledge video, see The Pope Fights and The Pope Fights 2 from Overly Sarcastic. I'm sure there are other videos you can look up for further research about the politickings and warmongering Popes of the Catholic Church too.
*3 - Modernization of Japan from the Boshin War; Revolutions of 1848 and gradual democratization of Europe from then on thanks to the Napoleonic Wars; and how economic inequality in general can only be erased from any traumatic event.

I don't think Three Houses (or at least Crimson Flower) is as easy as people says - at least with Normal Mode. There are a lot of factors at play with the damage and hit calculations, and there is also the absurdly powerful weapons enemies (former classmates) use against you. Come to think about it, I think I ended up not resetting as much with Fates Conquest than I divine-pulsed with Crimson Flower.

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7 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

Me too. It was nice to see how people would react to what was happening throughout the game.

Come to think about it, there are two things that I really enjoyed with Three Houses:

  • Koei Techmo calling on IS's bullshit addiction with male lord worship was just simply way overdue. Even though there were some rough edges around, I'm really glad Edelgard's story was the way it was, and I'm also glad that CYL voters voted for her. Hopefully this would be a wakeup call for IS to stop treating female lords as just some afterthought and start giving them the proper treatment in their own right.
    • Yes, I don't have a massive problem with Edie waging war, at least not from a story-writing view. People did that for the majority of history for far more selfish reasons (*1), even the Catholic Church joined in on the fun (*2), and there's good evidence that sometimes fundemental change only happens with big upheavals on society. (*3) Besides, even if all of that wasn't the case, she's fictional. People need to calm down and just accept that it's just a story. 
  • I enjoyed having to walk around the monastery to find out info about Fodlan. It feels more like I'm being an archaeologist or a historian.

*1 - Britain's Opium War against China, and the subsequent colonization of Hong Kong, which is now (or at least until last year) ironically cherished as the last bastion of democracy in China.
*2 - As a general entry knowledge video, see The Pope Fights and The Pope Fights 2 from Overly Sarcastic. I'm sure there are other videos you can look up for further research about the politickings and warmongering Popes of the Catholic Church too.
*3 - Modernization of Japan from the Boshin War; Revolutions of 1848 and gradual democratization of Europe from then on thanks to the Napoleonic Wars; and how economic inequality in general can only be erased from any traumatic event.

I don't think Three Houses (or at least Crimson Flower) is as easy as people says - at least with Normal Mode. There are a lot of factors at play with the damage and hit calculations, and there is also the absurdly powerful weapons enemies (former classmates) use against you. Come to think about it, I think I ended up not resetting as much with Fates Conquest than I divine-pulsed with Crimson Flower.

I have issues with it from a writing perspective in regards to her actual motivations. Like simultaneously she's meant to have decent points and reasons for waging war, while also being manipulated by the Agarthans to do it to fullfill their personal motivations. Simultaneously she's meant to be deeply affected by her torture backstory for it to be a primary motivator for her actions...which are to ally and help the people who tortured her (and it's not like they even attempt to depict it as Stockholm Syndrome). Meanwhile the Agarthans are depicted as so powerful that their help is absolutely crucial to Edelgard winning the war, yet also so non threatening that she's completely confident she can just deal with them as an after thought (apparently because they're arrogant, which is so hypocritical it's hard to believe the writers didn't realize the irony of it). I adore the idea of Edelgard, but I think they honestly were still wearing the kiddie gloves when it comes to characterizing her. Her torture backstory comes across as less something that's required for her character or the plot to function and more just a cheap underhanded writing trick to make her sympathetic. Her and the Agarthrans as a whole would have been better off without it. Then she's actually waging this war because these are tenets she holds and she's allying with some shady folks, rather than because some non state actors decided to torture her, so she declared war on everyone in the world except those very people. It's not like anything would even need to be changed if you remove her C support, she could do all the same stuff, her actions would just make a lot more sense (okay well the Hegemon form would need some slight tweaking to make sense as that's credited to her  twin crests, but even as it is, Maurice lays precedent for a crest bearer becoming a beast).

Also her and all the lords absolutely needed more presence in Part 1. Because if you're playing Verdant Wind first, who the hell even is Edelgard?

I like the story of Three Houses more than Fateswakening because it is more ambitious and at least tries to be something other than fluff. But despite the more mature facade, it doesn't really pull off the execution of its story any better than the 3DS games.

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1 hour ago, henrymidfields said:

Come to think about it, there are two things that I really enjoyed with Three Houses:

  • Koei Techmo calling on IS's bullshit addiction with male lord worship was just simply way overdue. Even though there were some rough edges around, I'm really glad Edelgard's story was the way it was, and I'm also glad that CYL voters voted for her. Hopefully this would be a wakeup call for IS to stop treating female lords as just some afterthought and start giving them the proper treatment in their own right.
    • Yes, I don't have a massive problem with Edie waging war, at least not from a story-writing view. People did that for the majority of history for far more selfish reasons (*1), even the Catholic Church joined in on the fun (*2), and there's good evidence that sometimes fundamental change only happens with big upheavals on society. (*3) Besides, even if all of that wasn't the case, she's fictional. People need to calm down and just accept that it's just a story. 
  • I enjoyed having to walk around the monastery to find out info about Fodlan. It feels more like I'm being an archaeologist or a historian.

If I recall correctly, the story and characters were handled by IS; Koei Tecmo's job was the programming. 

 

Anyway, I also enjoyed the Monastery stuff. It was neat being able to essentially freely explore and interact with the characters, and it helps a lot with immersion by reinforcing that the player character is a teacher. I liked a lot of the different features, though I'm not sure if it really needed a fishing minigame.

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24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I have issues with it from a righting perspective in regards to her actual motivations. Like simultaneously she's meant to have decent points and reasons for waging war, while also being manipulated by the Agarthans to do it to fullfill their personal motivations. Simultaneously she's meant to be deeply affected by her torture backstory for it to be a primary motivator for her actions...which are to ally and help the people who tortured her (and it's not like they even attempt to depict it as Stockholm Syndrome). Meanwhile the Agarthans are depicted as so powerful that their help is absolutely crucial to Edelgard winning the war, yet also so non threatening that she's completely confident she can just deal with them as an after thought (apparently because they're arrogant, which is so hypocritical it's hard to believe the writers didn't realize the irony of it). I adore the idea of Edelgard, but I think they honestly were still wearing the kiddie gloves when it comes to characterizing her. Her torture backstory comes across as less something that's required for her character or the plot to function and more just a cheap underhanded writing trick to make her sympathetic. Her and the Agarthrans as a whole would have been better off without it. Then she's actually waging this war because these are tenets she holds and she's allying with some shady folks, rather than because some non state actors decided to torture her, so she declared war on everyone in the world except those very people.

While I'll have to follow up tomorrow, there are generally real reasons why you can't easily get rid of undesirable factions without blowback on your end. CGP Grey does an explanation of that which breaks down how power politics work

My impression is that for whatever reason, the Agarthans at least had the political power to influence the government - I think they had the approval of the nobles - and while Edie would like to get rid of them, she is unable to because of the basic principles of political power as explained in the above video. It would also explain part of why postwar Germany had ex-Nazi members working in the government, and it'll also explain the same thing with postwar Japan rehiring former members of the prewar fascist government too. And as far as I am aware, I see nothing fundementally different with Edie's scenario.

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43 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

While I'll have to follow up tomorrow, there are generally real reasons why you can't easily get rid of undesirable factions without blowback on your end. CGP Grey does an explanation of that which breaks down how power politics work

My impression is that for whatever reason, the Agarthans at least had the political power to influence the government - I think they had the approval of the nobles - and while Edie would like to get rid of them, she is unable to because of the basic principles of political power as explained in the above video. It would also explain part of why postwar Germany had ex-Nazi members working in the government, and it'll also explain the same thing with postwar Japan rehiring former members of the prewar fascist government too. And as far as I am aware, I see nothing fundementally different with Edie's scenario.

I don't really see the comparison. In fact it seems to be the opposite of what Edelgard is trying to do. Because she is trying to get rid of one of the factions. It's not like exNazis, it's in fact killing all the exNazis as soon as the war is over. Only the exNazis are molemen whom the world doesn't even know exists. You say it's difficult to get rid of undesirable factions and I say yes, that's exactly the point. She shouldn't be confidently striding around sure she can out espionage the people who have been playing the game for ten thousand years, can disguise themselves as anyone and have freaking nukes. But any real world parallels aside from being possible due to the pretty specific super natural elements, is moot, as in universe the Agarthans can be written to be as easy or as difficult to purge as they need to be. That's not the issue. The issue is that the story is trying to have things both ways. Either the Agarthans are easy to get rid of, or they're not, but the game says, they are difficult to get rid of, until we defeat the narratively more appropriate final boss, by which point they're an absolute cinch to get rid of to the extent that it's not even worth talking about.

All this really amounts to as far as the story is concerned is that there is no actual conflict between the Agarthans and Edelgard. But the game still wants Edelgard to be sympathetic, so she can't be onboard with the plans of the people who have been deemed irredeemably evil. The result is for the story to basically pretend that there is a conflict between Edelgard and the Agarthans. Every two chapters or so it pays lip service to the notion, but nothing ever actually comes of it. There is no political maneuvering, there is no espionage subplot, there is no clever political swaying of allies or betrayals or really anything at all. As far as what happens in the story, Edelgard and Thales are completely on the same side, the game just pretends it's not the case so as not to sully Edelgard's character. I say to hell with that. Make Edelgard an actual ally of the Agarthans, and if she is to betray them, let it be to consolidate her own power for her own reasons, not because they're bitter enemies whom are still working together because the story says so. Let the Agarthans killing Jearlt be an actual source of conflict between Edelgard and Byleth. Let the Agarthans be treated less blatantly evil with an actual vision for the post war world that revolves around their tech that can't flourish under Rhea's rule. Let there be actual something that justifies the whole existence of these mole men beyond requiring someone to fight in Part 1, because we also can't have Edelgard be behind any of the events in Part 1 either, as that would also sully her character.

Much like the contradiction in her motivations and her relationship to the Agarthans and the power of the Agarthans themselves, my prime issue with Edelgard is that she's also an example of them wanting it both ways. They wanted to have a morally complex warlord as a protagonist, but they also wanted that character to be sympathetic and not evil. This leads to a character who is not morally complicated, yet still does bad things, yet isn't meant to be seen as a straight up villain. Of course it's absolutely possible to make a morally complex warlord who is also sympathetic, Lelouch from Code Geas is a pretty decent example, but much like Alvis, Lelouch actually owns his actions, while with Edelgard the writers go out of their way and even need to invent an entire other faction to basically soak up and blame any evil deeds Edelgard might commit (which never actually stops her doing any thing bad, the game just doesn't treat it as such).

But probably the most frustrating thing about how poorly Edelgard is handled is that it doesn't really matter. Because the character is a complete success. A pretty face and a slightly non standard character arc for a Fire Emblem protagonist is enough to get legions of fans to fall completely in love with her (and I say arc loosely as she doesn't really change at all throughout the course of her story, like ostensibly she learns to trust people more due to Byleth's influence, but that's handled so subtly as to basically be nonexistent).

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

But probably the most frustrating thing about how poorly Edelgard is handled is that it doesn't really matter. Because the character is a complete success. A pretty face and a slightly non standard character arc for a Fire Emblem protagonist is enough to get legions of fans to fall completely in love with her (and I say arc loosely as she doesn't really change at all throughout the course of her story, like ostensibly she learns to trust people more due to Byleth's influence, but that's handled so subtly as to basically be nonexistent).

People would've fallen in love with her almost no matter what. Main character in a game that moves many copies. Not saying exceptions to the rule don't exist, but for Fire Emblem, I haven seen any exceptions so far. FEH bears this out. CYL has been dominated by lords, Sigurd, Seliph, Leif -the Japan-only Jugdral trio- and the Krise, Robins, Corrins, and Byleths -the avatars- are the only ones who haven't won it. And even then the Robins and Byleths are fairly popular.

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Its always been rather curious how the lords dominated the CYL contests. Sure, they're the characters with the most screentime but its extremely rare for the lord to be the most interesting person in any conversation they're involved with. They're almost all kinda simplistic and they take after each other way too much. Barring a few exceptions of course. 

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3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

If I recall correctly, the story and characters were handled by IS; Koei Tecmo's job was the programming. 

This is probably true, at least to some degree; Koei Tecmo didn't create the entire game, after all.

But even if it's not true, "calling on IS's bullshit" is a pretty massive logical leap as to KT's supposed intentions with Edelgard.

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3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

If I recall correctly, the story and characters were handled by IS; Koei Tecmo's job was the programming. 

 

That's possible but it would also be a little strange. The overall structure seems very similar to the Three Kingdoms and especially its Dynasty Warriors incarnation which would make it odd if Koei wasn't as involved. 

In general Three Houses feels very much like a koei game, for better and certainly for worse. Not just the Three Kingdoms inspiration but things like Baron Dominic being a generic and the common map recycling has Koei's handprints all over them.

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27 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Its always been rather curious how the lords dominated the CYL contests. Sure, they're the characters with the most screentime but its extremely rare for the lord to be the most interesting person in any conversation they're involved with. They're almost all kinda simplistic and they take after each other way too much. Barring a few exceptions of course. 

I mean with every popularity poll on the series the lord characters have consistently placed first on them. Chrom placed first on the awakening polls, F!Corrin placed first on the fates polls, Dimitri placed first on the 3H polls, etc. the lords get the most character development after all so of course they’re gonna be popular even if you don’t see a whole lot of discussion about them.

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2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean with every popularity poll on the series the lord characters have consistently placed first on them. Chrom placed first on the awakening polls, F!Corrin placed first on the fates polls, Dimitri placed first on the 3H polls, etc. the lords get the most character development after all so of course they’re gonna be popular even if you don’t see a whole lot of discussion about them.

True. In every popularity the lords are at the topic and its always been really curious. Comparing Sigurd to Arvis for instance its very easy to see who's the more nuanced and interesting character, and the same goes if you compare Sigurd with Lewyn or Azelle, Or Corrin to Xander and Takumi, or Eirika to Duessal and Joshua. 

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4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I have issues with it from a righting perspective in regards to her actual motivations. Like simultaneously she's meant to have decent points and reasons for waging war, while also being manipulated by the Agarthans to do it to fullfill their personal motivations. Simultaneously she's meant to be deeply affected by her torture backstory for it to be a primary motivator for her actions...which are to ally and help the people who tortured her (and it's not like they even attempt to depict it as Stockholm Syndrome). Meanwhile the Agarthans are depicted as so powerful that their help is absolutely crucial to Edelgard winning the war, yet also so non threatening that she's completely confident she can just deal with them as an after thought (apparently because they're arrogant, which is so hypocritical it's hard to believe the writers didn't realize the irony of it). I adore the idea of Edelgard, but I think they honestly were still wearing the kiddie gloves when it comes to characterizing her. Her torture backstory comes across as less something that's required for her character or the plot to function and more just a cheap underhanded writing trick to make her sympathetic. Her and the Agarthrans as a whole would have been better off without it. Then she's actually waging this war because these are tenets she holds and she's allying with some shady folks, rather than because some non state actors decided to torture her, so she declared war on everyone in the world except those very people. It's not like anything would even need to be changed if you remove her C support, she could do all the same stuff, her actions would just make a lot more sense (okay well the Hegemon form would need some slight tweaking to make sense as that's credited to her  twin crests, but even as it is, Maurice lays precedent for a crest bearer becoming a beast).

Also her and all the lords absolutely needed more presence in Part 1. Because if you're playing Verdant Wind first, who the hell even is Edelgard?

I like the story of Three Houses more than Fateswakening because it is more ambitious and at least tries to be something other than fluff. But despite the more mature facade, it doesn't really pull off the execution of its story any better than the 3DS games.

I don’t disagree with the overall point here just with how it’s being said because to me it just sounds your problem is that the story is manipulating you into thinking Edelgard is sympathetic. Which is kind of stupid Because all of fiction is manipulative. Good manipulation is just good storytelling. Like don’t get me wrong I have my problems with how Edelgard’s conflict with the agarthans is handled as well mostly in that it’s just never resolved. But a story is not bad because it tries to manipulate you into thinking a certain way because every story tries to do that. If stories didn’t do that then you wouldn’t feel any emotion when watching/reading it

Edited by Ottservia
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1 hour ago, Florete said:

This is probably true, at least to some degree; Koei Tecmo didn't create the entire game, after all.

But even if it's not true, "calling on IS's bullshit" is a pretty massive logical leap as to KT's supposed intentions with Edelgard.

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That's possible but it would also be a little strange. The overall structure seems very similar to the Three Kingdoms and especially its Dynasty Warriors incarnation which would make it odd if Koei wasn't as involved. 

In general Three Houses feels very much like a koei game, for better and certainly for worse. Not just the Three Kingdoms inspiration but things like Baron Dominic being a generic and the common map recycling has Koei's handprints all over them.

I just tried to do a bit more research into which parts of the game were handled by Koei Tecmo and which were handled by IS, and I have actually been having a lot of trouble figuring out which parts were handled by which company. The shortest answer that I read a lot is that Koei Tecmo mainly helped with the technical and programming side of things while IS remained in charge of design and the other aspects of development. However, whenever I look for more details, it seems that it was actually a lot more complicated than that, and it quickly gets a bit confusing.

What I have found was that the scenario writing team was led by one of the two directors; namely Toshiyuki Kusakihara, and both directors work for IS. However, that scenario writing team consisted of Yuki Ikeno, Ryohei Hayashi and Mari Okamoto; all three of whom were brought in from Koei Tecmo. However (again), apparently, they were originally brought in just to assist IS in writing the social segments of the game. See what I mean by it getting complicated and confusing? And this was just stuff that I found in the first 20 minutes of researching.

As far as inspiration goes, apparently, the school sections and the timeskip (particularly the former students being at war with each other after the timeskip) were taken directly from Genealogy of the Holy War, but Kusakihara later admitted to also taking some inspiration from Three Kingdoms; apparently when Koei Tecmo recommended the Kou Shibusawa team to IS for helping with Three Houses, IS naturally looked over the games that team had made, which included Koei Tecmo's adaptation of Three Kingdoms, and that's how they ended up looking at Three Kingdoms and taking some inspiration from it. I cannot find whether or not they already had the Genealogy-inspired elements of the game in mind before then or not.

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