What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

10 hours ago, lenticular said:

Certainly, it's possible to come up with a coherent numbering scheme based on a specific set of answers to all these questions, but it will never be the one true numbering scheme. I know that if someone in the fandom refers to "FE13" then they probably mean Awakening, but if someone else thought they meant New Mystery (including BS in the numbering) or Three Houses (not including remakes) then I wouldn't blame them. And honestly, if someone thought "What the hell was the thirteenth game? Do you expect me to count them all?" then I wouldn't blame them for that either. Which I think is a bit of a problem because it makes the fandom somewhat exclusionary and impenetrable to outsiders.  Calling games by their actual names (or abbreviations like FE:SS and FE:RD if you're too lazy to type out the names in full) is more accessible, clearer and less ambiguous than using numbers.

Truth be told, BS and SS are both really bad acronyms, owing to their ambiguity - "Blazing Sword" was the common translation of FE7's subtitle Rekka no Ken, while FE6, or Fuuin no Tsurugi, was likewise known as "Sword of Seals". And of course there's the objection that now FE6 and FE7 are both abbreviated "BB" - generally, I prefer referring to them either by number, or as "Roy Emblem" and "Eliwood Emblem" respectively.

Otherwise I don't think the numbering system holds much utility beyond FE12. Games from the 3DS era onward have names that are easy to abbreviate. The one caveat to consider is, a uniform numbering scheme may ease discussion between fans who played different language versions - i.e. to the Japanese, FE13 is Kakusei, while FE14 is If. As such, I don't think it's possible to establish a universally acceptable abbreviation for each title - at least, not beyond the admittedly wide boundaries of English-language series discussion.

[NaotoUzumaki]

True enough not a flop but they are dealing with world wide sales now. They should be aware of it and fix it. Instead they made corrin the focus and controversy it’s them from the west and then made 3Houses by falling in the school/ persona trope with a silent Avatar the problem was making sais avatar being the host of god aka Sothis to explain they sweeping under the rug. What I mean by flop is that they SHOVE THEIR POLITICAL POV IN IT. Fates had Japan vs west with Norh and Hoshido while vallah was the germany of this world. When controversy hit them they backed into the school/trope they love so much to avoid it only to still NOT UNDERSTAND their fans. This is what I mean by flopped. They got caught with their pants down overseas and tried to sweep it away with 3Houses. Hell even Fire emblem Warriors was made with awakening fates in mind with Lyn and celica in there. People wanted to see Ike, the black Knight ephraim, erika and so much more.  Hell even their SMT Xover which is known Tokyo mirage sessions is a flop because of this reused cast overlooked and censorship because they didn’t think of the west. To me it is a flop especially rn because of the pandemic people are WAY LESS PATIENT for bs of ANY kind so rn they are threading in thin ice on in the west. If they don’t want to lose overseas audiences they NEED to understand them first before shelling another game. They are in the spotlight with Nintendo in the west so their future game should have western markets in minds foremost and tweaked for their Japanness version afterwards. FE has received too much exposure especially with the bad avatars to not avoid it anymore. This is why it is a flop in my book.

[Sunwoo]

I don't know why it's so difficult for some people to differentiate Hoshido from Japan.

While I'm not so naive to believe that Hoshido being portrayed as "pure white" has absolutely nothing to do with how Japan may view themselves, I rarely see people get nearly so up-in-arms about other FE countries that closely resemble a real country.

Adrestria has a very Germanic feel to it, in both visuals and naming, but the only time Germany really seems to come up in discussions about Adrestria are bad faith arguments comparing Edelgard to a certain dictator. Which are almost always in bad faith and really stupid and not even worth going into detail about. People seem generally content that Adrestria isn't actually fantasy Germany or something.

Or the Jugdral series, which are steeped very heavily in Norse and Irish mythology (thanks, that weird period in my life when I was super into Irish history). Heck, even Heroes, which is even more in-your-face about the Norse mythology in its naming and themes. No one ever calls Jugdral fantasy Ireland or fantasy Scandinavia. We're able to separate the fictional country from the real one. Same with all of the other FEs, not all of which are as obvious as the aforementioned but still have some resemblance to some IRL European culture.

So why is it that when we get a country based on Japan, a sizable portion of the fanbase acts like Hoshido is actually Japan and should be seen as Japan trying to whitewash their shitty actions in the past? Because yeah, I can see the logic there. I know Japan's kinda shitty in how they don't own up to the things they did. I get that seeing Hoshido portrayed as the "good nation" in comparison to "the bad Nohr" doesn't look good either.

But let's not act like this "good nation vs. bad nation" dynamic is new to FE. There's Ylisse and Plegia, where the game tries to say "but the Ylisseans did bad things too" but fails to stick the landing and is based entirely on Chrom's father. Whom we get absolutely no context on. We had the Loptyr Empire vs. everybody, where any attempts to humanize the Loptyr cult fall flat because except for like ... Salem (and Sara) they're all just horrible people. And Lewynseti makes a blanket statement about how Nal/Neir's descendants have shamed the crusaders, while saying nothing about the Thruds who are for some reason portrayed as more sympathetic despite being just as guilty if not more. Crimea vs. Daein gets a bit of a pass because Crimea is at least portrayed as being far more gray than other "good" countries, but Daein in PoR is still pretty much "the bad country" and RD didn't do much for my opinion on Daein other than to believe that its people are idiots. This is definitely a thing in other games.

Much as I hate to throw this out, I can't help but feel that there may be a bit of, ah ... racism involved. Or, at the very least, privilege. Something about how many of us are so used to European medieval fantasy settings being the norm that even a fictional country that is heavily or solely based on a specific country just seems normal, while a country based on Japan must be taken as it is actually Japan. Again, I get that because Hoshido is based on Japan and written by the Japanese, people may have more of a reason to believe that it's their own commentary of themselves. But even if that is the case, you can definitely read Hoshido as being independent of Japan, which it honestly should, while leaving any of the political stuff as a separate issue from the actual writing and portrayal of the country.

Neither Hoshido nor Nohr really work as countries, but not because of political commentary. It's because the writers didn't care enough about Fateslandia as a world to develop it beyond what we got.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Sunwoo

[Ottservia]

12 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Much as I hate to throw this out, I can't help but feel that there may be a bit of, ah ... racism involved. Or, at the very least, privilege. Something about how many of us are so used to European medieval fantasy settings being the norm that even a fictional country that is heavily or solely based on a specific country just seems normal, while a country based on Japan must be taken as it is actually Japan. Again, I get that because Hoshido is based on Japan and written by the Japanese, people may have more of a reason to believe that it's their own commentary of themselves. But even if that is the case, you can definitely read Hoshido as being independent of Japan, which it honestly should, while leaving any of the political stuff as a separate issue from the actual writing and portrayal of the country.

Man if you wanna talk about ethnocentrism in this community there’s far more to it than people being unable to separate Japan from Hoshido. I could go on a whole tirade about it believe you me. Something people tend to forget about this franchise is that these games are developed in Japan and as such will inevitably be influenced by Japanese beliefs, values, and culture. It’s the primary reason I hate the “Too anime” complaint like of fucking course these games are gonna take inspiration from popular Japanese media because they’re developed by Japanese nerds that read a lot of Manga on their commute to work. And then there’s the whole thing with Fates and how it takes heavy and I mean heavy inspiration from buddhism in its themes, motifs, and symbolism yet so many western fans criticize fates without taking any of that into account but that’s a rant for another time.

[NaotoUzumaki]

What I meant by that is them as developers not owning up to their mistakes. But fates has the most black and white conflict in the series. I don’t hate FE or it’s nerd influence. What I saying is that it affected their writing in general.  Edelgard does look like a certain germain dictator ngl but we see her have consequences like rhea for Both Path. It’s also why I their culture of Japan. In the game award the devs thanked the fan but to me it looked like I’m thanking you not because I MEAN IT but otherwise I’ll shame myself and everyone I represent. All im Asking is them taking their western audiences more into account for feedback. The reason is where I live most switch games cost me 79,99$ plus 15% taxes so already base 3House or any switch games cost me 95,67$ and the season pass cost me 49,99$ plus 15% taxes yet again so I had to shell An extra 57,48$ for the season pass which cost me 152.78$ for the game and dlc just saying they should be more receptive if people pay that much for their game 

 

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, NaotoUzumaki said:

True enough not a flop but they are dealing with world wide sales now. They should be aware of it and fix it. Instead they made corrin the focus and controversy it’s them from the west and then made 3Houses by falling in the school/ persona trope with a silent Avatar the problem was making sais avatar being the host of god aka Sothis to explain they sweeping under the rug. What I mean by flop is that they SHOVE THEIR POLITICAL POV IN IT. Fates had Japan vs west with Norh and Hoshido while vallah was the germany of this world. When controversy hit them they backed into the school/trope they love so much to avoid it only to still NOT UNDERSTAND their fans. This is what I mean by flopped. They got caught with their pants down overseas and tried to sweep it away with 3Houses. Hell even Fire emblem Warriors was made with awakening fates in mind with Lyn and celica in there. People wanted to see Ike, the black Knight ephraim, erika and so much more.  Hell even their SMT Xover which is known Tokyo mirage sessions is a flop because of this reused cast overlooked and censorship because they didn’t think of the west. To me it is a flop especially rn because of the pandemic people are WAY LESS PATIENT for bs of ANY kind so rn they are threading in thin ice on in the west. If they don’t want to lose overseas audiences they NEED to understand them first before shelling another game. They are in the spotlight with Nintendo in the west so their future game should have western markets in minds foremost and tweaked for their Japanness version afterwards. FE has received too much exposure especially with the bad avatars to not avoid it anymore. This is why it is a flop in my book.

Nintendo is based in Japan, and their target audience is Japan.  I'm very sorry if this revelation is upsetting.  You, of course, are free to wander to games that fit your taste, instead of posting things where I seriously have to question your motives.

And before you respond, keep in mind that I'm Japanese.

[NaotoUzumaki]

It’s not the revelation that’s upsetting for me and my friends. Its how they avoid feedback from their western fans. Hell sorry if I came across as an ass for this hell I love Japanese mythology and ramen shop. Hell for my birthday i trew a Yokai based masquerade party with my friends and I was a kitsune.I just wished they were more honest and receptive  towards their overseas audiences. 

 

[Ottservia]

12 minutes ago, NaotoUzumaki said:

It’s not the revelation that’s upsetting for me and my friends. Its how they avoid feedback from their western fans. Hell sorry if I came across as an ass for this hell I love Japanese mythology and ramen shop. Hell for my birthday i trew a Yokai based masquerade party with my friends and I was a kitsune.I just wished they were more honest and receptive  towards their overseas audiences. 

 

You know I’m surprised to hear this from a fellow Naruto fan(I’m just assuming based on your user name) because Naruto is also a story heavily steeped in buddhist and shinto philosophies. Fates and Naruto actually tackle similar ideas regarding duality and daoism(although if I were to compare fates to any shonen manga it would be Bleach cause they actually tackle the exact same idea regarding the truth of the water’s surface). If they want to appeal more to their domestic market first and their international audience second they have every right to do so. No artist is obligated to pander to you and to think otherwise is nothing short of entitled if you ask me

[Emperor Hardin]

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

But let's not act like this "good nation vs. bad nation" dynamic is new to FE. There's Ylisse and Plegia, where the game tries to say "but the Ylisseans did bad things too" but fails to stick the landing and is based entirely on Chrom's father. Whom we get absolutely no context on.

The game directly compares the anti Grimleal crusade by Ylisse to Walhart's crusade against the Grimleal. Walhart is depicted as the most sympathetic of the antagonists and the Grimleal are never humanized at any point, being even worse than the Loptous cult.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Emperor Hardin

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, NaotoUzumaki said:

It’s not the revelation that’s upsetting for me and my friends. Its how they avoid feedback from their western fans. Hell sorry if I came across as an ass for this hell I love Japanese mythology and ramen shop. Hell for my birthday i trew a Yokai based masquerade party with my friends and I was a kitsune.I just wished they were more honest and receptive  towards their overseas audiences. 

 

Because.  You're.  Not.  The.  Target.  Audience.  Repeat that to yourself until it sinks in.  Yes it sucks that we're not the target audience, so we can either deal with it or find a game where we are (Steam has some nice indie developers, support them if you feel so inclined).

[Florete]

55 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Because.  You're.  Not.  The.  Target.  Audience.  Repeat that to yourself until it sinks in.  Yes it sucks that we're not the target audience, so we can either deal with it or find a game where we are (Steam has some nice indie developers, support them if you feel so inclined).

We are, though. Maybe what you're saying was true before Awakening, but since then, Fire Emblem has been an international series. Fates was announced in a worldwide direct and was showcased at E3. This idea that because the developers are Japanese means they only care about Japanese audiences is not realistic; Nintendo is a major company with worldwide appeal. Blatantly ignoring a huge territory is not how these business work.

For the record, I don't agree with NaotoUzumaki's criticisms of Fates in this regard, I just wanted to say this.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Florete said:

We are, though. Maybe what you're saying was true before Awakening, but since then, Fire Emblem has been an international series. Fates was announced in a worldwide direct and was showcased at E3. This idea that because the developers are Japanese means they only care about Japanese audiences is not realistic; Nintendo is a major company with worldwide appeal. Blatantly ignoring a huge territory is not how these business work.

For the record, I don't agree with NaotoUzumaki's criticisms of Fates in this regard, I just wanted to say this.

If the complaints involve Japanese tropes in a Japanese video game, then that person isn't the target audience.  Apparently a lot of other people find appeal in the game despite the tropes.  I still find the gameplay fun.

[Emperor Hardin]

34 minutes ago, Florete said:

We are, though. Maybe what you're saying was true before Awakening, but since then, Fire Emblem has been an international series. Fates was announced in a worldwide direct and was showcased at E3. This idea that because the developers are Japanese means they only care about Japanese audiences is not realistic; Nintendo is a major company with worldwide appeal. Blatantly ignoring a huge territory is not how these business work.

For the record, I don't agree with NaotoUzumaki's criticisms of Fates in this regard, I just wanted to say this.

It should be noted, Fire Emblem Warriors choice of characters were very controversial in Japan, Awakening isn't one of the most popular FE games in Japan. 

Shadow Dragon fans also felt left off even though it was supposedly a focus game.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Emperor Hardin

[NaotoUzumaki]

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

You know I’m surprised to hear this from a fellow Naruto fan(I’m just assuming based on your user name) because Naruto is also a story heavily steeped in buddhist and shinto philosophies. Fates and Naruto actually tackle similar ideas regarding duality and daoism(although if I were to compare fates to any shonen manga it would be Bleach cause they actually tackle the exact same idea regarding the truth of the water’s surface). If they want to appeal more to their domestic market first and their international audience second they have every right to do so. No artist is obligated to pander to you and to think otherwise is nothing short of entitled if you ask me

True I guess I’m gonna find something else to support then. For the price of fate with dlc and 3Houses dlc being lackluster in my opinion imma drop it then. Don’t feel like paying 150$ for the new game in series every time.

[Jotari]

10 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

 

 

Again, I go to FE14 if I'm talking about all three at once or if the shortening has already been used. I'm not going to type out "Thracia 776 and Genealogy (or even GOHW) combined game" when I can just say "FE4/5 combined game" or SoS/BS" when FE 6/7 works well. And (again) if I'm already using the numbers, then switching to a different system in the middle of the conversation isn't usually needed unless it's a specific version of Fates. If I need to mention Revelation or Conquest or Brithright, I will. But those distinctions don't come up a lot in my conversations, since I don't talk about them like that. I usually don't need to break up the FE14 into its three games to talk about characters or relationships, which is my primary focus. Assuming I'm going to talk about Fates much at all. 

But you still have literally the exact same logic by referring to it as Fates. FE14 doesn't imply the whole title any more or less than saying Fates does.

9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Truth be told, BS and SS are both really bad acronyms, owing to their ambiguity - "Blazing Sword" was the common translation of FE7's subtitle Rekka no Ken, while FE6, or Fuuin no Tsurugi, was likewise known as "Sword of Seals".

You also have the issue there than when you say B.s. my mind actually goes to Archanea Saga.

(I think my new phone's overly aggressive spell correcting changed bs (which it probably thought of as bullshit), into Bachelor's of Science).

8 hours ago, NaotoUzumaki said:

True enough not a flop but they are dealing with world wide sales now. They should be aware of it and fix it. Instead they made corrin the focus and controversy it’s them from the west and then made 3Houses by falling in the school/ persona trope with a silent Avatar the problem was making sais avatar being the host of god aka Sothis to explain they sweeping under the rug. What I mean by flop is that they SHOVE THEIR POLITICAL POV IN IT. Fates had Japan vs west with Norh and Hoshido while vallah was the germany of this world. When controversy hit them they backed into the school/trope they love so much to avoid it only to still NOT UNDERSTAND their fans. This is what I mean by flopped. They got caught with their pants down overseas and tried to sweep it away with 3Houses. Hell even Fire emblem Warriors was made with awakening fates in mind with Lyn and celica in there. People wanted to see Ike, the black Knight ephraim, erika and so much more.  Hell even their SMT Xover which is known Tokyo mirage sessions is a flop because of this reused cast overlooked and censorship because they didn’t think of the west. To me it is a flop especially rn because of the pandemic people are WAY LESS PATIENT for bs of ANY kind so rn they are threading in thin ice on in the west. If they don’t want to lose overseas audiences they NEED to understand them first before shelling another game. They are in the spotlight with Nintendo in the west so their future game should have western markets in minds foremost and tweaked for their Japanness version afterwards. FE has received too much exposure especially with the bad avatars to not avoid it anymore. This is why it is a flop in my book.

They might not understand you, but they clearly understand their audience. Because Fire Emblem is doing better as a franchise than it ever has in the past. Both in and outside of Japan.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Jotari

[Venger_06]

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Awakening isn't one of the most popular FE games in Japan.

What?

https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2020/05/famitsu_poll_reveals_readers_favourite_fire_emblem_games

https://www.famitsu.com/news/202005/18198494.html

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

You also have the issue there than when you say B.s. my mind actually goes to Archanea Saga.

That's the point - that "BS" could refer to "BS Archanea Saga", OR to "Blazing Sword" (i.e. FE7). While "SS" could be either "Sword of Seals" (i.e. FE6) or "Sacred Stones".

16 hours ago, eclipse said:

Nintendo is based in Japan, and their target audience is Japan.  I'm very sorry if this revelation is upsetting.  You, of course, are free to wander to games that fit your taste, instead of posting things where I seriously have to question your motives.

And before you respond, keep in mind that I'm Japanese.

Huh, I learn something new every day. Oh, any opinion on my prior comment? Namely:

18 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Otherwise I don't think the numbering system holds much utility beyond FE12. Games from the 3DS era onward have names that are easy to abbreviate. The one caveat to consider is, a uniform numbering scheme may ease discussion between fans who played different language versions - i.e. to the Japanese, FE13 is Kakusei, while FE14 is If. As such, I don't think it's possible to establish a universally acceptable abbreviation for each title - at least, not beyond the admittedly wide boundaries of English-language series discussion.

I'd be curious to hear what a Japanese fan of the series thinks about the "names versus numbers" discussion, in light of many games being named differently in Japan.

[lenticular]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

You also have the issue there than when you say B.s. my mind actually goes to Archanea Saga.

Can confirm that Broadcast Satellite was what I actually meant in this case. (And yes, I did have to go and look up what the BS in Satellaview games actually stands for.)

[Acacia Sgt]

I've usually seen it as BSFE, with Blazing as FEBS.

[Jotari]

16 hours ago, eclipse said:

And before you respond, keep in mind that I'm Japanese.

Lies. Japanese people don't have pink hair. And don't tell me it's dyed!

31 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That's the point - that "BS" could refer to "BS Archanea Saga", OR to "Blazing Sword" (i.e. FE7). While "SS" could be either "Sword of Seals" (i.e. FE6) or "Sacred Stones".

Sword of Seals at least can be abbreviated as SoS (though that makes me think of Abba...which granted is never a bad thing).

Here's a unpopular opinion, the fanbase should broaden their mind and be willing to type more than four characters to refer to something.

[eclipse]

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'd be curious to hear what a Japanese fan of the series thinks about the "names versus numbers" discussion, in light of many games being named differently in Japan.

I'm one person.  IMO I don't care how people refer to games, as long as everyone knows which game is being talked about!

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

Lies. Japanese people don't have pink hair. And don't tell me it's dyed!

My IRL picture is sadly more disappointing.  My apologies~!

[Etrurian emperor]

On 10/4/2021 at 1:44 AM, Sunwoo said:

I don't know why it's so difficult for some people to differentiate Hoshido from Japan.

While I'm not so naive to believe that Hoshido being portrayed as "pure white" has absolutely nothing to do with how Japan may view themselves, I rarely see people get nearly so up-in-arms about other FE countries that closely resemble a real country.

I think its considered suspicious that in the most lopsided moral conflict in all of Fire Emblem the pure and benevolent nation is conveniently based on the writers own nation. The story repeatedly going out of its way to depict how Nohr isn't just bad but irredeemable, and rotten to the core without any sort of motive for their action doesn't really help either.

It a suspicious look, though for the most part I'm willing to chalk it up to IS just being completely disinterested in Fateslandia rather than any attempt to glorify Japan.

[Sunwoo]

12 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think its considered suspicious that in the most lopsided moral conflict in all of Fire Emblem the pure and benevolent nation is conveniently based on the writers own nation. The story repeatedly going out of its way to depict how Nohr isn't just bad but irredeemable, and rotten to the core without any sort of motive for their action doesn't really help either.

It a suspicious look, though for the most part I'm willing to chalk it up to IS just being completely disinterested in Fateslandia rather than any attempt to glorify Japan.

In all honesty, I feel like Nohr actually got off the hook a lot easier than other "bad nations". For one, the players could choose to side with Nohr. Something you couldn't do with Plegia or Grado or Bern. Also, while Garon and his goonies were definitely portrayed as being irredeemable, IS really went all out on the charm with the Nohrian royal siblings, trying to portray them as being "good people in a bad situation who love you above all else" or something like that and never letting them face consequences or criticism for their actions (or lack thereof). Also, with the exception of Peri, all of the other Nohrian retainers and non-royals still had some redeeming features.

Even if it didn't work on all players (I still strongly dislike Nohr as a faction and most of its characters), it was successful enough to keep all of the Nohrian royals pretty high up in the popularity charts and for enough of the fanbase to blindly defend the entirety of Nohr by making up shit about Hoshido that was never supported by any background material.

Really, it just felt like Fates was trying to push waifus and husbandos above all else. Especially any sort of logic to character motivations and shit.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Sunwoo

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 hours ago, eclipse said:

I'm one person.  IMO I don't care how people refer to games, as long as everyone knows which game is being talked about!

Fair enough! Seems a reasonable standard. My prior theory remains merely speculative. 

[Etrurian emperor]

3 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

In all honesty, I feel like Nohr actually got off the hook a lot easier than other "bad nations". For one, the players could choose to side with Nohr. Something you couldn't do with Plegia or Grado or Bern. Also, while Garon and his goonies were definitely portrayed as being irredeemable, IS really went all out on the charm with the Nohrian royal siblings, trying to portray them as being "good people in a bad situation who love you above all else" or something like that and never letting them face consequences or criticism for their actions (or lack thereof). Also, with the exception of Peri, all of the other Nohrian retainers and non-royals still had some redeeming features.

Even if it didn't work on all players (I still strongly dislike Nohr as a faction and most of its characters), it was successful enough to keep all of the Nohrian royals pretty high up in the popularity charts and for enough of the fanbase to blindly defend the entirety of Nohr by making up shit about Hoshido that was never supported by any background material.

Really, it just felt like Fates was trying to push waifus and husbandos above all else. Especially any sort of logic to character motivations and shit.

I don't think Nohr comes off well compared to other nations. Sure you can play as them but that doesn't change the fact that Nohr's actions stem solely from a seemingly instinctive need to be as evil as possible. Grado, Daein, Bern and even Dolhr all have at least some reason to act the way they do, but Nohr's only motivation is a desire to do harm for the sheer fun of it. Somewhere burried deep in the lore there is an aspect about Nohr's extreme poverty but no one in the game seriously tries to argue Nohr invades Hoshido because they need the resources to survive. I don't think the siblings come off very well in this either because their motivation for doing harm is idiocy if you're Xander and cowardice if you're Leo and Camilla.