What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Kori]

4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Dude I wrote a 30 page essay on the themes of Fates’s story and I do have it posted on this site and I have been pointing out these themes and ideas for a good while now but people always dismiss them because “Fates bad”. It doesn’t matter how many times I point out the fact that Xander is intentionally supposed to be hypocritical and how his obligation to Garon and Nohr parallel the blood family vs bond themes of Birthright’s narrative. Everyone just retorts with “ph but you’re just over analyzing fates can’t have deep ideas like that” so at this point I’ve just begun to give up. No one acknowles any of my points no matter how much evidence I have to support my claims.

No one acknowledges your points because they often don't respond to the actual criticisms people have, and not the interpretation you make of them. Like here, where you answer the question "are you sure you aren't making this up?" with "I wrote 30 pages about it". Yeah, and? That doesn't adress the question in a meaningful way. You could have been making it up for 30 pages. See?

All this talk of themes and messages, which aren't the main problem of Fates's writing, comes across as you pointing to a mountain and yelling about how people just refuse to go there for some reason even though the view there is so beautiful, while people are trying to tell you that the car to go on the mountain (the plot) has square wheels.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Kori

[Ottservia]

Just now, eclipse said:

Because in the end, it really is an opinion.  And if others are consistently having issues understanding your opinion, then I strongly suggest that you retool it so that it's not so misunderstood.

And that’s what I was trying to do and I thought I gave a reasonable enough explanation but then it still gets misunderstood by you saying “well my opinion won’t change even if I try to look at something differently” which duh that’s obvious. You can’t change your personal preference that easily. Like it’s not like my argument doesn’t take that into account. But the fact is that’s not what my point is nor was that ever my point. To repeat. My point is that criticism should be devoid of personal bias and preference. It doesn’t matter what your personal opinion on a story is, that shouldn’t give you the right to spread misinformation or criticize it for not being something that it was never intended to be. My argument has little to do with personal preference and opinion because that’s all subjective and I’m not trying to change your mind. It’s more about being able to separate criticism from personal bias. If you don’t like something then you don’t like it. I cannot change your mind. But if you don’t like something for a reason that’s not true and provably so then there’s a problem. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

32 minutes ago, Florete said:

What? There are certainly people who think that way, but I don't think "generally agreed to be bad characters" is accurate for any of them. Especially Lucina.

Yeah they're if anything a set of relatively praised/popular characters. If someone says they think all of them are bad characters my immediate thought is that this person has an issue with female characters generally, and if they actually think this opinion is "generally agreed upon" then I'm going to assume they're hanging out in pretty misogynist community. (Which, just to be very clear, is not a comment on this community. I've seen plenty of fans of all of those characters here.)

[Ottservia]

35 minutes ago, Kori said:

ll this talk of themes and messages, which aren't the main problem of Fates's writing, comes across as you pointing to a mountain and yelling about how people just refuse to go there for some reason even though the view there is so beautiful, while people are trying to tell you that the car to go on the mountain (the plot) has square wheels.

Yeah but that’s more a you problem cause me and many others can get up the mountain just fine without any issues because our suspension of disbelief is not so easily strained. Suspension of disbelief is entirely subjective so you can’t blame the story for your broken suspension of disbelief unless you can prove the story broke verisimilitude which fates doesn’t do. And even in regards to Corrin you can’t blame the story for not being able to relate to them because again that’s entirely subjective. Like a lot complaints towards Fates are either small nitpicks that really don’t matter or highly subjective things that while perfectly valid to have aren’t really objective faults with the story as it is that the story just is not for you.

[Furosemide]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

basic literary rhetoric

what books would you recommend to someone who wants to educate himself

[Florete]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

There's plenty of arguments about Micaiah/Celica.  Lyn wasn't exactly the bastion of strong character writing, either.  Which leaves Eirika (I think Lyon's the bigger problem in her story), Caeda (who doesn't get enough screen time IMO) and Lucina (not my favorite, but hardly the worst character out of a FE game).

If there are arguments about them then they're not "generally agreed" to be anything. You can think whatever you want of the others, but that's just you. I don't think any of them are worse than average.

[AnonymousSpeed]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

Can you think of a female character in the past seven years who was referred to by her body parts?  Because I can.

Seven years is a pretty long time to thing back on, but I can at least recall this video and the Little Red-Haired Girl from Charlie Brown. Why did you bring up pars pro toto?

1 hour ago, Florete said:

What? There are certainly people who think that way, but I don't think "generally agreed to be bad characters" is accurate for any of them. Especially Lucina.

Hm, I suppose they do get a lot of votes in Heroes. I guess I was confusing the fanbase and the playerbase with that one.

26 minutes ago, Florete said:

If there are arguments about them then they're not "generally agreed" to be anything. You can think whatever you want of the others, but that's just you. I don't think any of them are worse than average.

I mean, kind of a low bar. Fire Emblem protagonists don't tend to be particularly interesting in my opinion.

[vanguard333]

Regarding the support conversations argument, recently, I decided to revisit and finish my first playthrough of Verdant Wind. Because of how characters are paired up at the end, my strategy for seeing the character endings I wanted was to have the different characters only a-support those I wanted them to have a paired ending with until the final mission, where I would then watch the remaining a-supports. One thing I will say is that going through each of these a-supports all at once is very much a slog, regardless of their quality.

I guess I'm not really making any kind of point by bringing this up, but I thought it worth mentioning because I immediately thought of this argument when I noticed that I was getting sick of going through all these support conversations all at once.

[joevar]

9 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Look man, I don't want to sound too mean when I point this out, but this is exactly how other people feel when they try to explain their positions to you.

we're running on circles. really.

6 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

To be quite honest, and maybe this is just were I choose to sow my seeds, but in all my years of shitposting, I don't think I've ever seen a discussion of Lyn, Eirika, Micaiah, Celica, or Caeda's body type. Now Lucina I have seen plenty of discussion because flat chest does not go brrr and quite frankly that's still funny.

maybe its just in my mind, but i thought theres a liiittle bit of discussion regarding Lyn?  i mean, look at dem thighs man. her outfit looks like it need pants to complement whats with waist-high opening. but cant draw her without showing her thighs so pants become a no-no in every artwork. digging deeper than that will make me a bigger pervert (pun intended)

7 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

EDIT: Oh yes, I am aware that there is a discussion related to character going on. I thought about participating in it, but I don't see any way my presence will improve anything. So I'll just leave this here: Awakening, Fates, and 3H support systems don't work because it's only structured that way so the avatar can boink everyone. Which will always lead to things turning out subpar.

oh boi, someone gonna be pissed at that statement. i agree tho, those game dont want to have a support with MC that doesnt converge into horny teenager romance in the end. altho the severity of it become a bit less in 3H thankfully with the introduction of limited support level, which means its anything but romance, and the exclusion of S support so the end of support chain doesnt boils down to "i like you, you like me, lets hook up"

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10 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Try looking at it from someone else’s perspective for once. If the story doesn’t make sense trying looking at it from a different angle until it makes sense.

sorry i dont agree with this. in context of fates maybe theres some sense that people dont get.  but "until it makes sense." phrase is just wrong imo. you're doing what you told others not to do because you cant have it any other way than  it has to make sense. 

despite repeatedly saying you understand/respect opinion, you cant stand or frustrated that others can not get same level of understanding as you, and those people are in the wrong. then circle back to "oh you may have your opinion, its groundless" "it does meet literature/intelligent level of argument" etc etc and its not targeted to one or two person, but people as general.

that's just being passive aggressive, not acceptance of differing opinion

6 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I’m not trying to have you change your opinion on anything just understand that your opinion shouldn’t impact your ability to meet and judge the story on it’s own terms and what it’s trying to say.

again, being passive aggressive.  dont want to people change opinion while bombarding them whats wrong with their opinions

10 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Dude I wrote a 30 page essay on the themes of Fates’s story and I do have it posted on this site and I have been pointing out these themes and ideas for a good while now but people always dismiss them because “Fates bad”. It doesn’t matter how many times I point out the fact that Xander is intentionally supposed to be hypocritical and how his obligation to Garon and Nohr parallel the blood family vs bond themes of Birthright’s narrative. Everyone just retorts with “ph but you’re just over analyzing fates can’t have deep ideas like that” so at this point I’ve just begun to give up. No one acknowles any of my points no matter how much evidence I have to support my claims.

you just reinforce my idea that you "fill in the blanks" seeing that you even wrote 30-page essay on that matter. so many international scientific journals dont even need that many page to convey their point.

Edited December 22, 2021 by joevar

[AnonymousSpeed]

6 minutes ago, joevar said:

maybe its just in my mind, but i thought theres a liiittle bit of discussion regarding Lyn?  i mean, look at dem thighs man. her outfit looks like it need pants to complement whats with waist-high opening. but cant draw her without showing her thighs so pants become a no-no in every artwork. digging deeper than that will make me a bigger pervert (pun intended)

I don't know. Can you count your run-of-the-mill hornyposting as "discussion"? Especially in the context of Three Houses possibly offering a change of pace. It's sort of inevitable for any main character, regardless of sex, that people will get horny for them. I'm sure Edelgard and Claude each have armies of thirsty fans.

[joevar]

2 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't know. Can you count your run-of-the-mill hornyposting as "discussion"? Especially in the context of Three Houses possibly offering a change of pace. It's sort of inevitable for any main character, regardless of sex, that people will get horny for them. I'm sure Edelgard and Claude each have armies of thirsty fans.

now that you mention it. its not so much a discussion but like "show your fetish"

but wait

6 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

but in all my years of shitposting, I don't think I've ever seen a discussion of Lyn, Eirika, Micaiah, Celica, or Caeda's body type.

im specifically referring to this. so its not being a discussion actually... uh good? would you discuss thoroughly and seriously every female character body type ? it will get uncomfortable for the average person, unless its limited only for giggles lol

[Ottservia]

11 minutes ago, joevar said:

again, being passive aggressive.  dont want to people change opinion while bombarding them whats wrong with their opinions

Look man it doesn’t matter how much you say it’s your opinion that Naruto is a story about hard work vs talent that doesn’t make you any less wrong about it. All I ask is that if you make a claim then cite your shit. It really isn’t much all things considered. It’s really not that hard to follow up on the burden of proof. 

 

14 minutes ago, joevar said:

despite repeatedly saying you understand/respect opinion, you cant stand or frustrated that others can not get same level of understanding as you, and those people are in the wrong. then circle back to "oh you may have your opinion, its groundless" "it does meet literature/intelligent level of argument" etc etc and its not targeted to one or two person, but people as general.

What frustrates me is people criticizing shit without trying to understand it. I hate criticisms of stories made in bad faith and that’s exactly what most criticism I see is 

 

17 minutes ago, joevar said:

you just reinforce my idea that you "fill in the blanks" seeing that you even wrote 30-page essay on that matter. so many international scientific journals dont even need that many page to convey their point.

Ah yes because it’s fates I can’t write a 30 page essay on it because obviously I must be overthinking it. Fates can’t have a deeper meaning because it’s garbage and so anyone who likes it must be stupid or horny. Cause of course no one can actually like fates because they relate to it on a deeply personal level or anything. It’s just stupid anime tropes meant to pander to horny people. Stop overthinking it. Christ you people are so predictable 

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, eclipse said:

I may look at something from a different angle and not change my opinion.  That also happens.

EDIT: The things I go through just to make quote boxes play nicely!

Can you think of a female character in the past seven years who was referred to by her body parts?  Because I can.

It's not like Three Houses is exempt from that though, not that it was exlucisvely the only role of female characters previously. I've seen the joke made more than once that "I'd be religious if Rhea were my pope!" And the cynic in me says that Edelgard's design  is a major part in why people like her. Not because of how sexy she is or isn't, but more because she isn't visually designed to look like a villain. I think if she had Ashnard's shut eating grin  more people would be less sweet on her.

[Sunwoo]

ITT: Everyone forgets that Camilla existed. Except for eclipse and me.

[Jotari]

55 minutes ago, joevar said:

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sorry i dont agree with this. in context of fates maybe theres some sense that people dont get.  but "until it makes sense." phrase is just wrong imo. you're doing what you told others not to do because you cant have it any other way than  it has to make sense. 

despite repeatedly saying you understand/respect opinion, you cant stand or frustrated that others can not get same level of understanding as you, and those people are in the wrong. then circle back to "oh you may have your opinion, its groundless" "it does meet literature/intelligent level of argument" etc etc and its not targeted to one or two person, but people as general.

that's just being passive aggressive, not acceptance of differing opinion

again, being passive aggressive.  dont want to people change opinion while bombarding them whats wrong with their opinions

you just reinforce my idea that you "fill in the blanks" seeing that you even wrote 30-page essay on that matter. so many international scientific journals dont even need that many page to convey their point.

Dont forget strawmans. Lots and lots of strawmans. Like has anyone other than Otts even mentioned Naruto in this thread? Im not even sure if Fates was ever the discussion of the most recent topic. Thought it was old versus modern support systems with a Stahl Tobin comparison. Only one I recall referencing Fates other than ottservia or in direct relation to his points was myself saying the 3DS games have good pacing for how their supports are unlocked.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

19 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Dont forget strawmans. Lots and lots of strawmans. Like has anyone other than Otts even mentioned Naruto in this thread? Im not even sure if Fates was ever the discussion of the most recent topic. Thought it was old versus modern support systems with a Stahl Tobin comparison. Only one I recall referencing Fates other than ottservia or in direct relation to his points was myself saying the 3DS games have good pacing for how their supports are unlocked.

I don’t understand how that’s a strawman. I’m starting to think you don’t understand what a strawman is. I only bring up Naruto a lot because it’s the story I’m most familiar with so it’s an easy example for me to talk about in relation to other topics. I brought up fates because as a way to jab at Etruian’s double standard. Guy can read that much out of Tobin’s character but refuses to apply that same rhetoric to Fates because apparently it’s short comings come from the devs intentionally sidelining quality for pandering when he has zero evidence to back that up which is the definition of a bad faith.

like bringing up Naruto as an example to help strengthen my argument is not a stawman because I’m not using it to attack a point that was never made. It’s just an easy example I can point too as a story that people have misinterpreted for really dumb reasons. At worst it’s a false analogy but it’s not.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Ottservia

[Jotari]

15 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I don’t understand how that’s a strawman. I’m starting to think you don’t understand what a strawman is. I only bring up Naruto a lot because it’s the story I’m most familiar with so it’s an easy example for me to talk about in relation to other topics. I brought up fates because as a way to jab at Etruian’s double standard. Guy can read that much out of Tobin’s character but refuses to apply that same rhetoric to Fates because apparently it’s short comings come from the devs intentionally sidelining quality for pandering when he has zero evidence to back that up which is the definition of a bad faith.

Unless you can find someone other than yourself in the last dew pages saying "Fates can’t have a deeper meaning because it’s garbage and so anyone who likes it must be stupid or horny. Cause of course no one can actually like fates because they relate to it on a deeply personal level or anything. It’s just stupid anime tropes meant to pander to horny people." then I feel fairly secure saying your strawmanning, because I haven't seen anyone even remotely making that claim. And I don't think Fates's story was even the topic conversation until you made it so.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jotari

[Benice]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Ah yes because it’s fates I can’t write a 30 page essay on it because obviously I must be overthinking it. Fates can’t have a deeper meaning because it’s garbage and so anyone who likes it must be stupid or horny. Cause of course no one can actually like fates because they relate to it on a deeply personal level or anything. It’s just stupid anime tropes meant to pander to horny people. Stop overthinking it. Christ you people are so predictable 

I think that the point that they're trying to get across is "if it takes 30 pages of arguments to talk about why Fates is good, but it can't be done in any less than that, then that's kind of a problem." Or, "The game's not giving me anything to like but a theme that wasn't effectively conveyed for one reason or another."

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, @joevar.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

What frustrates me is people criticizing shit without trying to understand it. I hate criticisms of stories made in bad faith and that’s exactly what most criticism I see is 

I think part of the problem is that there are things in a story or game that aren't really quantifiable- I cannot come up with a number that shows or explains my disdain for Three Houses, nor can I show a figure that explains why I adore Binding Blade. And for Fates, I think what put people off to begin with is the characters.* There's technically nothing objectively wrong about them, but for one reason or another, people do not like them. In my uneducated opinion, taste indeed has a place in debate on art like video games. People can certainly make objectively untrue statements, but especially when discussing something as subjective as a story, limiting a discussion only to what is objective makes things really dull to discuss.

*That being said, a lot of FETubers and LPers were incredibly quick to dismiss the characters and story simply because of the preceding reputations, and those opinions probably also marred Fates' luck amongst the general populace.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Look man it doesn’t matter how much you say it’s your opinion that Naruto is a story about hard work vs talent that doesn’t make you any less wrong about it. All I ask is that if you make a claim then cite your shit. It really isn’t much all things considered. It’s really not that hard to follow up on the burden of proof. 

And this does bring up a good point. Even if themes are things created intentionally by authors and artists, interpretation of themes can be subjective for a variety of reasons. The major one I'll talk about is failure to effectively convey themes by the author and/or obscure intentions by the author. This can be through not particularly caring about a theme, (Something like Crash Bandicoot, for example, doesn't put much stock into its themes), making it too subtle or nebulous to be appreciated whilst playing for most people, or flaws on top of a theme that distract people from noticing it. Themes can be kind of like a murder mystery whodunnit-style novel's culprit. Care generally has to be taken that it's not plainly obvious who indeed did it, but also that it makes sense once it's revealed. There's a line that is most often aimed for in this form of storytelling. I don't know if you are familiar with Ace Attorney or RTGame, but just based on his reaction to a certain twist in the middle of Ep. 3 of Justice For All, it kind of shows what happens when a twist goes too far, relying on things too obscure to really be appreciated and often seems like clumsy writing by the author. Whenever an artist presents a theme within a story, it's also part of the author's job to use the theme well to enhance, or at least manipulate, the audience's experience. While a theme can be misinterpreted for a lot of reasons (such as a popular figure talking about their interpretation of the themes), there's nearly always reason for the misinterpretation. I read The Count of Monte-Cristo as part of a class recently, and what I got out of what the author was trying to say was different from what some others got. While I don't know what Mr. Dumas' intentions were or if my interpretation of the novel was correct, I can cite reasons for why I interpreted the subjects the way I did or felt the way I did about characters.

For Fates, it seems that often people think the themes were obscured by poor dialogue or weak characters and find that, even if there are themes, they aren't prevalent to the way they experienced the story. In my limited experience on Fates' story, I definitely think that the author has something to say, and I think they succeeded very well in some spots across all three routes. I can also definitively state that things like the baby realms, Camilla's design* and certain events (which I won't mention specifically because my formatting is horrid enough without spoiler boxes) all detracted from the way I interpreted and felt about the story; It can be hard to respect the author's vision for the story, because there are some things in the game I do not respect-and these elements which people don't respect are likely why they're more willing to defend someone like Tobin than someone like Camilla, even if the latter is a much deeper character.

*There is a part of me that very much likes Camilla's design, but he is kept in a box in the basement.

Lastly, while my imput to the author means nothing because they will never see this conversation, from my own perspective, it really helps if someone tells me as a creating something that's subjective and their opinion of the story or game: Things like "hey, I feel that x character is too tropey", or "Oh, you meant the story to be about hope? I thought it was about the dangers of the abuse of power." There is nothing objective stated here, but because someone subjectively suggested some things, it's worth at least considering why they felt the way they did about the narrative, even if I ultimately disagree. I understand that what I'm about to ask is really weird, but why do you think nobody seriously analyzes the stories and characters of games like Santa Claus Saves the Earth or The Wand of Gamelon, but instead dismiss them as laughable? While comparing these terrible games to Fates is not fair to Fates, given that Fates is actually a functional game, it does kind of show that despite authorial intent, there's aspects to enjoyment and qualities of stories beyond things that can be objectively stated, or at least logical reasons for which people dismiss games.

29 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Dont forget strawmans. Lots and lots of strawmans. Like has anyone other than Otts even mentioned Naruto in this thread?

Hey now, to be fair, Naruto is just something prevalent to them-plenty of people have made comparisons to games or media outside of FE because it's something they're familiar with. I know nothing about Naruto, but comparison is fair IMO, especially since there haven't been any arguments requiring an understanding of Naruto.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Benice

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, Benice said:

I think that the point that they're trying to get across is "if it takes 30 pages of arguments to talk about why Fates is good, but it can't be done in any less than that, then that's kind of a problem." Or, "The game's not giving me anything to like but a theme that wasn't effectively conveyed for one reason or another."

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, @joevar.

I think part of the problem is that there are things in a story or game that aren't really quantifiable- I cannot come up with a number that shows or explains my disdain for Three Houses, nor can I show a figure that explains why I adore Binding Blade. And for Fates, I think what put people off to begin with is the characters.* There's technically nothing objectively wrong about them, but for one reason or another, people do not like them. In my uneducated opinion, taste indeed has a place in debate on art like video games. People can certainly make objectively untrue statements, but especially when discussing something as subjective as a story, limiting a discussion only to what is objective makes things really dull to discuss.

*That being said, a lot of FETubers and LPers were incredibly quick to dismiss the characters and story simply because of the preceding reputations, and those opinions probably also marred Fates' luck amongst the general populace.

And this does bring up a good point. Even if themes are things created intentionally by authors and artists, interpretation of themes can be subjective for a variety of reasons. The major one I'll talk about is failure to effectively convey themes by the author and/or obscure intentions by the author. This can be through not particularly caring about a theme, (Something like Crash Bandicoot, for example, doesn't put much stock into its themes), making it too subtle or nebulous to be appreciated whilst playing for most people, or flaws on top of a theme that distract people from noticing it. Themes can be kind of like a murder mystery whodunnit-style novel's culprit. Care generally has to be taken that it's not plainly obvious who indeed did it, but also that it makes sense once it's revealed. There's a line that is most often aimed for in this form of storytelling. I don't know if you are familiar with Ace Attorney or RTGame, but just based on his reaction to a certain twist in the middle of Ep. 3 of Justice For All, it kind of shows what happens when a twist goes too far, relying on things too obscure to really be appreciated and often seems like clumsy writing by the author. Whenever an artist presents a theme within a story, it's also part of the author's job to use the theme well to enhance, or at least manipulate, the audience's experience. While a theme can be misinterpreted for a lot of reasons (such as a popular figure talking about their interpretation of the themes), there's nearly always reason for the misinterpretation. I read The Count of Monte-Cristo as part of a class recently, and what I got out of what the author was trying to say was different from what some others got. While I don't know what Mr. Dumas' intentions were or if my interpretation of the novel was correct, I can cite reasons for why I interpreted the subjects the way I did or felt the way I did about characters.

For Fates, it seems that often people think the themes were obscured by poor dialogue or weak characters and find that, even if there are themes, they aren't prevalent to the way they experienced the story. In my limited experience on Fates' story, I definitely think that the author has something to say, and I think they succeeded very well in some spots across all three routes. I can also definitively state that things like the baby realms, Camilla's design* and certain events (which I won't mention specifically because my formatting is horrid enough without spoiler boxes) all detracted from the way I interpreted and felt about the story; It can be hard to respect the author's vision for the story, because there are some things in the game I do not respect-and these elements which people don't respect are likely why they're more willing to defend someone like Tobin than someone like Camilla, even if the latter is a much deeper character.

*There is a part of me that very much likes Camilla's design, but he is kept in a box in the basement.

Lastly, while my imput to the author means nothing because they will never see this conversation, from my own perspective, it really helps if someone tells me as a creating something that's subjective and their opinion of the story or game: Things like "hey, I feel that x character is too tropey", or "Oh, you meant the story to be about hope? I thought it was about the dangers of the abuse of power." There is nothing objective stated here, but because someone subjectively suggested some things, it's worth at least considering why they felt the way they did about the narrative, even if I ultimately disagree. I understand that what I'm about to ask is really weird, but why do you think nobody seriously analyzes the stories and characters of games like Santa Claus Saves the Earth or The Wand of Gamelon, but instead dismiss them as laughable? While comparing these terrible games to Fates is not fair to Fates, given that Fates is actually a functional game, it does kind of show that despite authorial intent, there's aspects to enjoyment and qualities of stories beyond things that can be objectively stated, or at least logical reasons for which people dismiss games.

Hey now, to be fair, Naruto is just something prevalent to them-plenty of people have made comparisons to games or media outside of FE because it's something they're familiar with. I know nothing about Naruto, but comparison is fair IMO, especially since there haven't been any arguments requiring an understanding of Naruto.

Yeah but the way Ottservia uses Naruto is "don't say this about Naruto because it's wrong" and the only response I cwould possible give is "I have no idea if that's true because I know nothing about Naruto." And when I just didn't say anything on the matter in this instance (because I really have nothing to say on the matter) he came back a few posts later and accused me of ignoring his points as if me not saying anything about Naruto somehow proved him right about Naruto. Comparisons are good and all, I think you even did a decent one with the Count of Monte Cristo there, I didn't have to know anything about the book to understand your comparison (though into know a lot about it and I have to say that's one big was book for a class assignment!).

[vanguard333]

I don't know if this is unpopular or not, but I think that, in terms of the gameplay mechanics, Three Houses is at its best in the earlier chapters, when the numbers are small and when all the teaching mechanics are arguably at their most rewarding and least tedious. Exploring the monastery, interacting with students, and instructing them all feel worthwhile early on, but by the time of the last few chapters, those things become less rewarding and become more tedious as a result.

It's kind-of like how Breath of the Wild's physics and weapon durability are arguably best-utilized in the Great Plateau when the numbers are small enough that you want to conserve & scavenge weaponry without feeling too bad when a weapon breaks, as any weapon or physics exploit will do enough damage against the foes you fight in the Plateau.

[Benice]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

I didn't have to know anything about the book to understand your comparison (though into know a lot about it and I have to say that's one big was book for a class assignment!).

Ah, it was a extremely abbreviated version. It was in French too, so it makes me a little less confident that I understood it.

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Yeah but the way Ottservia uses Naruto is "don't say this about Naruto because it's wrong" and the only response I cwould possible give is "I have no idea if that's true because I know nothing about Naruto." And when I just didn't say anything on the matter in this instance (because I really have nothing to say on the matter) he came back a few posts later and accused me of ignoring his points as if me not saying anything about Naruto somehow proved him right about Naruto. Comparisons

I do agree that the references to Naruto are a little too specific for me to grasp, but I often can get the gist of what's going on.

[Ottservia]

37 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Unless you can find someone other than yourself in the last dew pages saying "Fates can’t have a deeper meaning because it’s garbage and so anyone who likes it must be stupid or horny. Cause of course no one can actually like fates because they relate to it on a deeply personal level or anything. It’s just stupid anime tropes meant to pander to horny people." then I feel fairly secure saying your strawmanning.

I mean is that not what Etruian thinks fates is. He literally says he can’t believe Fates is good because the developers are too busy pandering to the audience. Like he’s said that multiple times same with sunwoo who keeps saying that Waifusm is ruining FE stories because IS can’t have people’s precious waifus be bad people so they tack on a sympathetic backstory or something when there is literally zero evidence to support that claim and is just an assumption they’re making. I have plenty of grounds to be making statements like that. Hell even you have said this before. Something about Fates being some kind of trashy story solely meant to virtue signal. Yeah That statement has plenty of ground to stand on

 

30 minutes ago, Benice said:

think part of the problem is that there are things in a story or game that aren't really quantifiable- I cannot come up with a number that shows or explains my disdain for Three Houses, nor can I show a figure that explains why I adore Binding Blade. And for Fates, I think what put people off to begin with is the characters.* There's technically nothing objectively wrong about them, but for one reason or another, people do not like them. In my uneducated opinion, taste indeed has a place in debate on art like video games. People can certainly make objectively untrue statements, but especially when discussing something as subjective as a story, limiting a discussion only to what is objective makes things really dull to discuss.

*That being said, a lot of FETubers and LPers were incredibly quick to dismiss the characters and story simply because of the preceding reputations, and those opinions probably also marred Fates' luck amongst the general populace.

And that’s totally fair. Like if you don’t something then you don’t like something. Like I can say all day that awakening’s themes of defying fate and overcoming the cycle of conflict we’re all trapped in resonates with me on an emotional level but that doesn’t mean others will think the same way. That’s just how personal taste works. It’s when people start trying to justify their subjective tastes with objective reasoning that bothers me. I can say all day how boring Demon slayer is but I’m not gonna say it’s bad because the side characters are underdeveloped because they’re not underdeveloped. I just find whatever development they go through to be completely uninteresting. And that’s fine because that’s my opinion. That doesn’t mean the story is bad though.

30 minutes ago, Benice said:

And this does bring up a good point. Even if themes are things created intentionally by authors and artists, interpretation of themes can be subjective for a variety of reasons.

I’mma have to disagree on themes being subjective. You can only really interpret a single sentence so many ways and in regards to storytelling which is just a collection of sentences, events, and other things dependent on the medium they work much the same way. You can only really interpret a story so many different ways. To suggest awakening is not a story about overcoming fate through the power of bonds is just wrong cause it’s not exactly subtle about that fact. 

 

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah but the way Ottservia uses Naruto is "don't say this about Naruto because it's wrong" and the only response I cwould possible give is "I have no idea if that's true because I know nothing about Naruto." And when I just didn't say anything on the matter in this instance (because I really have nothing to say on the matter) he came back a few posts later and accused me of ignoring his points as if me not saying anything about Naruto somehow proved him right about Naruto. Comparisons are good and all, I think you even did a decent one with the Count of Monte Cristo there, I didn't have to know anything about the book to understand your comparison (though into know a lot about it and I have to say that's one big was book for a class assignment!).

I mean if you couldn’t comment on it you should’ve said do to begin with otherwise I wouldn’t have to assume. I know that’s bad faith debate but still it’s not a strawman because I never attacked an argument that was never made simply using it as an example to bolster my own point. Again I’m starting to think you don’t know what a strawman is. I mean you’ve strawmanned multiple times and I can prove it.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Ottservia

[joevar]

6 minutes ago, Benice said:

I think that the point that they're trying to get across is "if it takes 30 pages of arguments to talk about why Fates is good, but it can't be done in any less than that, then that's kind of a problem." Or, "The game's not giving me anything to like but a theme that wasn't effectively conveyed for one reason or another."

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, @joevar.

YES thank you. almost point it out myself. More or less what Benice said. 

i thought my recent comment in this thread avoid referencing fates as much as possible, but just a general comment. dunno why it seems im focusing fates specifically

59 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

What frustrates me is people criticizing shit without trying to understand it. I hate criticisms of stories made in bad faith and that’s exactly what most criticism I see is

again, i'll advice to avoid generalizing people as much as possible. even if the part about "making criticism based of bad faith is not good"  is something i can agree. but cant agree with it being most

but forget it. thats the last i'll say about it for a while at least

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

43 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Dont forget strawmans. Lots and lots of strawmans. Like has anyone other than Otts even mentioned Naruto in this thread? Im not even sure if Fates was ever the discussion of the most recent topic. Thought it was old versus modern support systems with a Stahl Tobin comparison. Only one I recall referencing Fates other than ottservia or in direct relation to his points was myself saying the 3DS games have good pacing for how their supports are unlocked.

i wonder why it devolve into that too. referencing other medium criticism done by people not related to this thread

on another note i was surprised people dont know naruto. altho thats beyond the point. lul

2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Three Houses is at its best in the earlier chapters, when the numbers are small and when all the teaching mechanics are arguably at their most rewarding and least tedious. Exploring the monastery, interacting with students, and instructing them all feel worthwhile early on, but by the time of the last few chapters, those things become less rewarding and become more tedious as a result.

NGL, i was excited about it actually. before the game comes out, that is

[vanguard333]

Just now, joevar said:

NGL, i was excited about it actually. before the game comes out, that is

Oh; to be clear, I still enjoy the later parts of Three Houses for the most part, just like I enjoyed Breath of the Wild after leaving the Great Plateau. I'm just saying that I think that the core mechanics of Three Houses are at their most rewarding when the numbers are low and diminish in reward as the game goes on.

[joevar]

18 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Oh; to be clear, I still enjoy the later parts of Three Houses for the most part, just like I enjoyed Breath of the Wild after leaving the Great Plateau. I'm just saying that I think that the core mechanics of Three Houses are at their most rewarding when the numbers are low and diminish in reward as the game goes on.

yes, thats clear enough. which is to say thats not unpopular opinion (imo). since so many people who come to hate it was also excited about it afaik. put it simply, it is good, but just not for replayability