What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Benice said:

Ignore I accidentally quoted twice and that's an irrevocable sin on mobile.

 

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

I mean is that not what Etruian thinks fates is. He literally says he can’t believe Fates is good because the developers are too busy pandering to the audience. Like he’s said that multiple times same with sunwoo who keeps saying that Waifusm is ruining FE stories because IS can’t have people’s precious waifus be bad people so they tack on a sympathetic backstory or something when there is literally zero evidence to support that claim and is just an assumption they’re making. I have plenty of grounds to be making statements like that. Hell even you have said this before. Something about Fates being some kind of trashy story solely meant to virtue signal. Yeah That statement has plenty of ground to stand on

The fact that you can't see the difference there really shows how much you're misunderstanding people. Me in particular, because I have never said anything remotely like "Fates can’t have a deeper meaning because it’s garbage and so anyone who likes it must be stupid or horny. Cause of course no one can actually like fates because they relate to it on a deeply personal level or anything. It’s just stupid anime tropes meant to pander to horny people" and if you genuinely think thats something I believe then, yes, you're absolutely strawmanning me. You also said something about me saying that Shadows of Valentia saved the series when that is also completely untrue. I am very critical of shadows of Valentia, probably more critical of it than I am of Fates (I'm highly critical against literally every game in the series), but you just don't see that because you see everything through a zero sum lenses of competition between Fates and Shadows of Valentia.

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I mean if you couldn’t comment on it you should’ve said do to begin with otherwise I wouldn’t have to assume. I know that’s bad faith debate but still it’s not a strawman because I never attacked an argument that was never made simply using it as an example to bolster my own point. Again I’m starting to think you don’t know what a strawman is. I mean you’ve strawmanned multiple times and I can prove it.

Sure, why not? Go ahead and prove it. I reckon I could compile far more evidence than you though, as it's something you do pretty much constantly. To be fair to you I don't think you intend to, but a massive amount if this 300+ page thread is you arguing against the exact same points that no one is actually making.

1 hour ago, Benice said:

Ah, it was a extremely abbreviated version. It was in French too, so it makes me a little less confident that I understood it.

I do agree that the references to Naruto are a little too specific for me to grasp, but I often can get the gist of what's going on.

Being in French would make it more clear in a way. Retranslating the Count of Monte Cristo into more easily readable English is something people have actually tried to in recent decades. Though im gussing from your phrasing it means French isn't your native language. I'm curious to see whatnyour divergent take on it is though as the story is pretty up front with how it treats it's themes, I think. Of course here isn't the right place for it, so send me a PM if you want to talk about it.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

-Offspring Seals are NOT worth it in Fates. The drastic strength increase enemies get after they promote means they are strong enough to threaten most units (which would generally encourage throwing out whatever Uber units you have at the enemy, primarily Ryoma or Xander [especially in Birthright, where reliable tanks are few and far between]), and side objectives, which generally have neat rewards, become harder to accomplish. And don't get me started on the shitfests that are Shiro and Ignatius's paralogues, where it's all too likely they die before you can even get the chance to do anything to stop it.

-Sol Master Ninja is overrated to holy hell and back. I already find Sol to be at its nadir in Fates, and "pray that your unit either dodges a lot and/or activates Sol frequently" is just a subpar strategy, especially when Sol only drains half the damage dealt (and is useless if you either don't do a lot of damage or it doesn't proc when whatever you're facing is healthy).

-Gunter isn't that good in Conquest. He's good in chapter 15, and usable in chapter 16, but after that? Whatever he has to offer is not enough to justify kicking someone who's not a failure out.

-Niles (and by extension, Kidnap) is overrated. He has excellent speed, but that's not good enough to make up for lacking almost everywhere else. There's no reason for me to consider it worth it to put up with him over the long term when Nina can do pretty much everything he can but better. Regarding Kidnap, I don't consider it worthwhile when most of what I get out of it is worse versions of units I get just by going through the story and playing paralogues.

[Kori]

9 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Yeah but that’s more a you problem cause me and many others can get up the mountain just fine without any issues because our suspension of disbelief is not so easily strained. Suspension of disbelief is entirely subjective so you can’t blame the story for your broken suspension of disbelief unless you can prove the story broke verisimilitude which fates doesn’t do. And even in regards to Corrin you can’t blame the story for not being able to relate to them because again that’s entirely subjective. Like a lot complaints towards Fates are either small nitpicks that really don’t matter or highly subjective things that while perfectly valid to have aren’t really objective faults with the story as it is that the story just is not for you.

See, you're doing it again. Did I say anything about not being able to relate to Corrin? Or about suspension of disbelief? I said "the plot is broken", and you're making up arguments to respond to instead, so that you can say they're subjective or unimportant. If you're willing to walk to the mountain, more power to you, but we have the right to complain that we shouldn't have to, because a piece of media is not just its themes, but the story through which it delivers whatever message it has, and Fates' story is shoddy in so many places.

There is no "anti-suspension of disbelief" conspiracy against Fates. When Fates came out, many people were excited for it; fans wanted to like it and for it to be good. Despite the already worrying elements like the designs or the avatar's central role, many approached the story in good faith, disbelief very much suspended, and the story still didn't measure up. That's why people are now "biased against Fates", not the reverse.

4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Ah yes because it’s fates I can’t write a 30 page essay on it because obviously I must be overthinking it. Fates can’t have a deeper meaning because it’s garbage and so anyone who likes it must be stupid or horny. Cause of course no one can actually like fates because they relate to it on a deeply personal level or anything. It’s just stupid anime tropes meant to pander to horny people. Stop overthinking it. Christ you people are so predictable 

And again. Nowhere was it said that it being Fates had anything to do with it, this was simply about the length. I personally don't see 30 pages as unbelievable, but again, the fact that you could write them is entirely irrelevant from whether or not you were right about what you wrote in them or projected things on the game.

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean if you couldn’t comment on it you should’ve said do to begin with otherwise I wouldn’t have to assume. I know that’s bad faith debate but still it’s not a strawman because I never attacked an argument that was never made simply using it as an example to bolster my own point. Again I’m starting to think you don’t know what a strawman is. I mean you’ve strawmanned multiple times and I can prove it.

So you admit bad faith?

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

23 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

-Gunter isn't that good in Conquest. He's good in chapter 15, and usable in chapter 16, but after that? Whatever he has to offer is not enough to justify kicking someone who's not a failure out.

I´m pretty sure his defense is usually PU bot and in terms of a physical Corrin that´s kinda correct, as well as minor weapon rank shenaningans. His support bonuses are +1DEF/STR/SKL and his classes give quite nice bonuses - Cav/Wyv for combinations of STR/DEF/MOV and Merc for some more SKL/SPD(/MOv if BK). Also his PS which is great. If you are looking to maximize dmg on Corrin, he is indeed your man. The nice thing is, I suppose, you don´t always need to bring your PU bot though that may reflect poorly on support rank.

Unless you don´t play with PU bots and have erveryone do something all the time.

By your standards, high dmg, high speed, supreme accuracy, tankiness about  4/5 of the cast of CQ isn´t usable anyway, so I´d be surpirsed if you didn´t have a few spots open for them failures.

54 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

-Offspring Seals are NOT worth it in Fates. [snip]

Is this a criticism of Fates paralogues or the OS, because I can´t tell.

They are there to immediately catch up your kid according to it´s average growths - there´s a considerable difference between any lvl 20 kid and it´s OS promoted counterpart. If you use an OS you got in chapter 20 in chapter 27 it´s your own fault, presuming you know how they work. Plus they are free which is always appreciated.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

-Niles (and by extension, Kidnap) [snip]

You don´t like Kidnap, got it. Out of curiosity, how do you feel about Orochi?

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Kori said:

And again. Nowhere was it said that it being Fates had anything to do with it, this was simply about the length. I personally don't see 30 pages as unbelievable, but again, the fact that you could write them is entirely irrelevant from whether or not you were right about what you wrote in them or projected things on the game.

And we actually have a bit of a case study for this, as a few weeks ago Ottservia was talking about his interpretation of the Yin and Yang themes in Fates only for me to point out that everything attributed to each of them are incompatible with actual symbolism of Yin and Yang.

On 10/30/2021 at 4:58 PM, Ottservia said:

This actually feeds into the daoist symbolism that Fates is trying to showcase. Nohr is supposed to represent Yin or darkness and earth. And when you look at it from the tiger and dragon idiom present in buddhism it starts to come together. The tiger in that idiom also represents Yin and tigers are said to be ruthless, relentless, tough, and indomitable. They stick low to the ground and are utterly relentless in their assault. Sound familiar? Yeah it sounds a lot like Nohr and Garon doesn’t it. Yang or heavenly dragons by contrast are more passive and wise. They bide their time and only strike when the opportunity presents itself much like how Hoshido is not the aggressor in this conflict and plays a more passive role until provoked. The daoist symbolism is even present on the covers of each game. Yin is represents more feminine qualities which is why Female Corrin is on Conquest’s cover art while yang represents masculinity and is why Male Corrin is on Birthright’s cover art. You see the story makes a lot more sense when you understand the religious symbolism behind it. Fates’s moral ambiguity comes from its daoist symbolism where the solution to the conflict isn’t in destroying one or the other but rather finding balance between the two which Corrin does in Revelation and that is the reason he’s able to kill Anankos the representation of wuji or emptiness. Like I said Fates that makes you question what you perceive as the truth that is reflected on the water’s surface. In that way I’d consider the story morally ambiguous.

 

On 10/30/2021 at 8:10 PM, Jotari said:

What? No. That's...that's just plain wrong. Yes, Yin is darkness, but Yin is the passive force while Yang is the active force. The tiger isn't the relentless one, the tiger is the wise one who hangs low to the ground, biding it's time waiting to strike. If they were intentionally using Yin and Yang and not just colour dualism then they just plain got them wrong. If they were actually adhering to the traits of Yin and Yang then it would be Hoshido that would be the aggressor while Nohr would be the force that bides it's time in waiting, though even the whole idea of an aggressor or victor between Yin and Yang completely misses the point. Nohr would absolutely be the, for want of a better term, good nation under a proper utilization of Yin and Yang philosophy, but there wouldn't even be an aggressor to begin with, it'd be an eternally stable conflict. Did you just dive into the merest top levels of Yin and Yang and miss the whole aspect of Yin being the passive force, or did you actually know and just choose to ignore the bits that don't fit into a symbolic reading of Fates? Or did you just read someone else talk about it elsewhere and parrot their views? Because it has to be one of those, as you're literally using the wrong words attributed to the wrong forces here, as in your explanation is inverted.

(Post hoc edit, I was genuinely being sincere and not slinging insulted with those last few sentences)

 

On 10/31/2021 at 8:20 AM, Jotari said:

No, Yin is the passive element. It's pretty standard sexism. Women are the passive gentle gender while men are strong active one. But even if the aesthetic if Nohr and Hoshido were swapped to actually match Yin and Yang, it still wouldn't be exploring the actual concept which, as I said, would have required and endlessly stable war with no aggressor at all. Conquest and Birthright would have straight up bad endings. Not, as they are now, ostensibly happy endings with some fridge logic as to what happens next that needed DLC to address.

So yeah, you can write a thousand pages on something and still be plain wrong. I can actually think of another pretty good academic example, someone wrote a book about how homosexuality was treated in Victorian London, poured over hundreds of old verdicts and discovered thousands of cases where people had been executed for homosexuality. Only she completely  misunderstood the old legal term, I think it was Death Recorded, which naturally sounds like it means a death sentence, but because Legaleese be Legaleese it actually means something that should be a death sentence is pardoned. So basically she was completely wrong about the entire premise due to the understandable lack of knowledge of nineteenth century British legal terminology.  So yeah you can write dozens of pages on something and tonnes research and still be just plain wrong. That's why the whole peer review system exists.

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

24 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

You don´t like Kidnap, got it. Out of curiosity, how do you feel about Orochi?

To be blunt; she's junk. Just like Niles. Unlike Niles, though, she has the offense; her issue is that she's slow as a Magcargo. She's also frail, but that's typical of mages, so I'm not holding that against her.

24 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

Is this a criticism of Fates paralogues or the OS, because I can´t tell.

They are there to immediately catch up your kid according to it´s average growths - there´s a considerable difference between any lvl 20 kid and it´s OS promoted counterpart. If you use an OS you got in chapter 20 in chapter 27 it´s your own fault, presuming you know how they work. Plus they are free which is always appreciated.

Both. I don't consider it worth it when I could've gotten better results with an earlier recruitment. And to be honest, if I'm planning on using the kids, I'd probably be picking them up before enemies promote anyway (Kana being the exception in the event I plan to have Corrin marry Flora; Kana's paralogue is easy anyway due to chokepoints galore).

24 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

I´m pretty sure his defense is usually PU bot and in terms of a physical Corrin that´s kinda correct, as well as minor weapon rank shenaningans. His support bonuses are +1DEF/STR/SKL and his classes give quite nice bonuses - Cav/Wyv for combinations of STR/DEF/MOV and Merc for some more SKL/SPD(/MOv if BK). Also his PS which is great. If you are looking to maximize dmg on Corrin, he is indeed your man. The nice thing is, I suppose, you don´t always need to bring your PU bot though that may reflect poorly on support rank.

Unless you don´t play with PU bots and have erveryone do something all the time.

I do use pair up when I feel that I'm about to get into a situation where I'll need it, or for movement purposes (like taking my army over the chasm in chapter 23, for example), but not pair up bots, who are only there to be paired up with someone else. And Gunter isn't good for much else, especially when by then Corrin has probably already gotten married.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[Etrurian emperor]

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Not because of how sexy she is or isn't, but more because she isn't visually designed to look like a villain.

In the student phase at least. But as Emperor Edelgard does look the part of a villain. That's probably why I prefer her later design. It calls back to previous antagonistic rulers and gives her an imposing appearance. 

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I mean is that not what Etruian thinks fates is. He literally says he can’t believe Fates is good because the developers are too busy pandering to the audience. Like he’s said that multiple times

Do take note that I never said any such about the gameplay. But yeah. I stand by all that I've said. The deeprealm pretty clearly reveals that the priority of the writing team was merely having a second gen rather than pulling it off well. Just as how romancing the Hoshidans reveals that shipping took priority over the basic premise of the game. Its not hard to find cases were marketing and artistic priorities clash horribly and where the later tend to lose out. 

[Sasori]

I have some complaints about the Tellius series that I don't see mentioned all that often.

First of all is the music. The Tellius series has some great tracks like Elincia's theme, Power hungry fool and most of the custscene music actually. But I find myself not liking the battle music at all in those games. Especially Clash with its loud...trumpets?

I also found the portraits to have made a big downgrade between POR and RD. The new characters are fine, but characters like Titania, Astrid or Boyd just don't look all that good to me. Its either the hair, the eyes or the much darker colour pallette that doesn't look good to me.

As for Fates. I do think that it does a lot of pandering and that it hurtx the story.  I don't think that is my biggest problem with Fates story though. My biggest problem is just how unintersted the game feels about its own world. The world not having a name is a bit of a meme, but I think it goes a bit further then that. The game's structure feels a bit episodic in nature and many of the more wordly characters being demoted to 'corrinsexual' just mean that many places such as Chev, Nestra and Izana's place feel kind of empty and irrelevent. Now that would be a very minor gripe normally. Every Fire emblem game has unimportant places. It would be fine if Hoshido and Nohr could pick up the slack and be compelling places themselves, but they don't really manange to do so for me. I do blame Garon too for being so evil that it kind of drains everything interesting about the conflict.

That is not to say Fates is devoid of good idea's, supports or merrit. I just found it had a great idea, but that it did't live up to its potential.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Sasori

[Eltosian Kadath]

6 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Actually meeting the story on it’s own terms and analyzing it for what it wants to say instead of dismissing on the grounds of popular concensus and subjective opinion? Pfffft fuck that that’s for losers. Why would I ever want to do that.

I remember reading part way through your Fates analysis, back when I thought your arguments about Fates, Awakening, and Echoes were being made in good faith, and was struck by how few quotes you used from Fates to support the themes you were claiming it has. I have come to you again, and again with actual quotes from Echoes, and you have dismissed them repeatedly, because despite the way you describe your analysis, and arguments, you don't meet either of those stories on their own terms. The way you argue, what was actually written in their stories are secondary to your own subjective opinion of it.

 

6 hours ago, Ottservia said:

The writers are all incompetent anyway who have no idea what they’re doing and I’m simply smarter than them.

There is a reason people think that, and to do so I will look at a couple of key points of Revelations, the biggest failure of Fate's themes (as I see it at least), and where Fate's shows its hand as towards why the writing is questionable. Lets start with that we are lied to in Revelation about how the "Curse of Valla" works in Revelation, and how it actually works is never revealed to us despite truth being a theme. At the end of Revelation chapter 10 Corrin has a chance to talk to Leo, but alas he simply can't Leo about Anakos because of that pesky curse (and looking at the quote below you can see that both are talking about people, Corrin starts with someone, and Leo asks who....)

Spoiler

• Corrin: Listen carefully. He didn't want to start a war with Hoshido. He's being controlled by our real enemy—someone hiding behind the scenes. This invisible foe is who we should really be after!
• Leo: I see. Well then, tell me who is pulling the strings. Name the manipulator!
• Corrin: I'm sorry, Leo... I can't say who it is.

The issue is, in Conquest Chapter 7

Spoiler

Corrin: The mystical dragon... Anankos?

Corrin names Anankos, and nothing happens. So we are either being lied to about the curse, and never discover the truth about it in defiance of the name hinting that the truth being revealed is a major theme of Revelation; the stories of the three parts of Fates aren't supposed to taken together as a whole; or the writers didn't notice this issue. I think there is a solid arguments to be made in any of those three, but the one I feel is strongest is that the writers...didn't do a good job. Issues like this crop up a fair bit, but another that immediately comes to mind is the big reveal that Gunter is the traitor in chapter 26, because he knew about the flower Scarlet pinned to her chest, that only Scarlet's killer could know about.

Spoiler

• Corrin: When we found Scarlet's body, does anyone remember seeing a flower?
• Ryoma: Now that you mention it... No, there wasn't one on her.
• Corrin: That's because the magical attack that she saved me from burned the flower away. And she had only put that flower on a moment before we jumped from the bridge. She and I were the last to jump, so the only ones who saw the flower on her were me...and whoever attacked her!

Again there is a big issue with this that the Rev team just overlooked...Corrin talked about Scarlet having pinned the flower on when they find her body in chapter 18

Spoiler

 

• Corrin: The flower she'd pinned on... It's been burned away.

and despite Gunter not having a single line of dialogue in that scene, the camera very deliberately pans past his model as the scene opens, emphasizing that he was there to hear this. This could have so easily been fixed, but there is a distinct lack of care with how Fate's story is written and presented. I could keep going over more, and more of these moments, where the more you look into it, the more apparent the faults in Fate's writing is, but I am building towards something, so lets jump to the biggest one, where this lack of care ends up destroying Fate's biggest theme. Fates goes a great job of building this strong theme: who is your real family, those you share blood, or those that raised you, centered around that iconic decision of which you the player chooses, with Birthright and Conquest showing us the folly of both extremes...which goes up in flames if you try to romance any of the Hoshidan family. Sure there is some side content that claims Lilith is Corrin's sister, and Revelation saying Azura is a cousin (that gets retconed out by some other side content), but Fate's story doesn't treat either of them as family, and I could spend pages upon page pointing out all the places it reinforces this dichotomy between the Hoshidan "blood" relatives, and adoptive Nohrian family. Its very easy to see Fates burning down its strongest, and best presented theme for some cheap pandering, but I think there is a clearer reason for why the Fate's team didn't bother wasting time, or resources on its story. Fate's really shows it hand with how little it cared about crafting an explanation for why you can recruit kids.

Spoiler

The little scene explaining is only shown once, it aesthetically looks out of place, and the explanation is poorly thought out, especially when compared to the other games that have child recruits. In both the games that used this mechanic previously, it is intrinsically tied to the story, and theme at work, and for good reason, it is an extreme mechanic to justify...but it is also a really fun one that leads to a lot of interesting gameplay decisions...and gameplay is what the Fate's team cared about more about than story. I don't think that was a bad decision, as they made what I consider the best FE gameplay in the entire series.

Whew...that was more effort then it was worth.

 

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

The themes of a story aren’t subjective. Like the themes of a story don’t change everytime you read it. It’s not a shrodinger’s cat situation.

...I mean they kinda are. Look at a work under different literary lenses and different themes come to light.

[Kori]

1 hour ago, Sasori said:

As for Fates. I do think that it does a lot of pandering and that it hurtx the story.  I don't think that is my biggest problem with Fates story though. My biggest problem is just how unintersted the game feels about its own world. The world not having a name is a bit of a meme, but I think it goes a bit further then that. The game's structure feels a bit episodic in nature and many of the more wordly characters being demoted to 'corrinsexual' just mean that many places such as Chev, Nestra and Izana's place feel kind of empty and irrelevent. Now that would be a very minor gripe normally. Every Fire emblem game has unimportant places. It would be fine if Hoshido and Nohr could pick up the slack and be compelling places themselves, but they don't really manange to do so for me. I do blame Garon too for being so evil that it kind of drains everything interesting about the conflict.

That is not to say Fates is devoid of good idea's, supports or merrit. I just found it had a great idea, but that it did't live up to its potential.

It's a shame, because you can tell they put thought and effort into differenciating Hoshido and Nohr on a design level: the aesthetics of the setting, the classes that are available and their designs (even their names in japanese, though that's somewhat lost in the localization), the weapons, even some trends in the characters' stats... I actually really like that. Unfortunately, that's about where it ends.

[Ottservia]

5 hours ago, Kori said:

So you admit bad faith?

I never said my argument was perfect 

 

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

The fact that you can't see the difference there really shows how much you're misunderstanding people. Me in particular, because I have never said anything remotely like "Fates can’t have a deeper meaning because it’s garbage and so anyone who likes it must be stupid or horny. Cause of course no one can actually like fates because they relate to it on a deeply personal level or anything. It’s just stupid anime tropes meant to pander to horny people" and if you genuinely think thats something I believe then, yes, you're absolutely strawmanning me. You also said something about me saying that Shadows of Valentia saved the series when that is also completely untrue. I am very critical of shadows of Valentia, probably more critical of it than I am of Fates (I'm highly critical against literally every game in the series), but you just don't see that because you see everything through a zero sum lenses of competition between Fates and Shadows of Valentia.

First of all, I’m not saying your argument is of those exact words just that each argument I listed is similar. You’re just being pedantic at this point. Both Etruian and Sunwoo are exactly that though and I don’t see how they can be interpreted any other way in that fates can’t have a deeper meaning because it’s just pandering to horny people. Your argument is mostly on the grounds of Fates cannot have a deeper meaning because it’s just there to virtue signal.

 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

So yeah, you can write a thousand pages on something and still be plain wrong.

I mean yeah I agree. I actually think my old Fates essay is terrible and I wanna rewrite it. 

 

2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I mean they kinda are. Look at a work under different literary lenses and different themes come to light.

Okay then tell me how Awakening’s story is a commentary on the flaws of democracy and capitalism or how it criticizes the judiciary system? Or how its a story about succumbing to your own fate. 

 

5 hours ago, Kori said:

See, you're doing it again. Did I say anything about not being able to relate to Corrin? Or about suspension of disbelief? I said "the plot is broken", and you're making up arguments to respond to instead, so that you can say they're subjective or unimportant. If you're willing to walk to the mountain, more power to you, but we have the right to complain that we shouldn't have to, because a piece of media is not just its themes, but the story through which it delivers whatever message it has, and Fates' story is shoddy in so many places.

There is no "anti-suspension of disbelief" conspiracy against Fates. When Fates came out, many people were excited for it; fans wanted to like it and for it to be good. Despite the already worrying elements like the designs or the avatar's central role, many approached the story in good faith, disbelief very much suspended, and the story still didn't measure up. That's why people are now "biased against Fates", not the reverse.

Yeah but what are those plot issues? You’re not specifying. Cause from where I’m standing those plot issues don’t exist. If it’s the plot contrivance of the Valla curse. Then that’s subjective because contrivance is a suspension of disbelief thing. There are a couple if places where it does break verisimilitude but aside from one they’re all small instances that don’t really matter all that much. If it’s Leo’s teleport tome again that’s suspension of disbelief. If it’s world building then that’s a subjective thing because the story had no intention on expanding on the world in the way you wanted it too. It only goes down to aesthetics. Okay why is that a bad thing? Not every story needs to explore their setting with a huge amount of depth. Like what plot issues are you talking about? Cause I don’t see any

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Sasori said:

I also found the portraits to have made a big downgrade between POR and RD. The new characters are fine, but characters like Titania, Astrid or Boyd just don't look all that good to me. Its either the hair, the eyes or the much darker colour pallette that doesn't look good to me.

Funny, I'm the opposite. I like Radiant Dawn's portraits a lot more. First time bias might factor in though as I played Radiant Dawn first so it's how I was first introduced to the characters.

12 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

First of all, I’m not saying your argument is of those exact words just that each argument I listed is similar. You’re just being pedantic at this point. Both Etruian and Sunwoo are exactly that though and I don’t see how they can be interpreted any other way in that fates can’t have a deeper meaning because it’s just pandering to horny people.

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what Strawmanning is. "This isn't your exact argument, but I'm going to argue as if it were by generally saying I have seen people say that." And no, neither Etrurian Emperor or Sunwoo are exactly that. If you want to know what they really think, or at least Etrurian, look at his response to your post where he said he stands by what he said. Because despite how it looks, him summing up how he feels there is significantly different from the argument you're presenting.

12 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Your argument is mostly on the grounds of Fates cannot have a deeper meaning because it’s just there to virtue signal.

It's not though. In fact I've done a search through the entire forum to see if I've ever even used the term virtue singaling, since it's not a phrase I'd typically use and in my ten years of being here (tenth anniversary next week if anyone wants to get me a present) I've used the term once. Here.

On 6/15/2021 at 12:09 AM, Jotari said:

Oh of course there are more ways to challenge it. But it still needs to be challenged in some way, or at least be a guiding force of decision. I don't think that's really true for Corrin though. Since the story bends over backwards to try and justify literally invading a peaceful country as a pacifistic decision. If Corrin was about as pacifistic as they are in Birthright, ie not having any desire to kill at all but still wishing to save lives and using their power they have to do so in the way that leads to the lowest casualties, then absolutely nothing would change about Conquest's story. In fact the story would probably be better as Corrin would have to sacrifice more to strive for victory. But instead they made Corrin more pacifistic because what they actually do in Conquest is laughably unjustified and a counter balance was deemed necessary to make them something resembling a good person. Which turns pacifism from a tenet to a Path of Radiance style yes no choice. And in turn as the consequence of making Birthright Corrin and basically every other character seem stupid at best and more evil at worse for not selecting the objectively more moral choice of using a taser sword by just choosing to be a pacifist because it's just that easy a thing to do without ever compromising any goals. I don't say any of this because I think pacifism is stupid or because it necessarily needs to be depicted as a hard thing to do, in fact pacifism is something very important to me. And it's for that reason I think Fates is a trashy story for using something I deem important for quite literal virtue signaling.

So if you can read that and all you get from it is "Fates cannot have a deeper meaning because it’s just there to virtue signal" then you have misunderstood me. Because that's literally the final line of a post that's like 300 words long. This is a specific criticism of a specif plot point of Fates. Boiling down to my opinion (and my opinions of Fates are much larger than what's summed up in this quote, some good, some bad) "virtue signalling" is completely  misleading. I thought you were suggesting I was complaining about it's LGBT characters or something (which no doubt can be complained about, though it's not something I'm really interested enough in). So I'll say it here clearly. I do not believe "Fates cannot have a deeper meaning because it’s just there to virtue signal." I think it fails to have deeper meaning on making any point about pacifism and it's attempts to are virtue signalling. This in  no way means Fates exists purely to virtue signal as you suggest.

[Ottservia]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what Strawmanning is. "This isn't your exact argument, but I'm going to argue as if it were by generally saying I have seen people say that." And no, neither Etrurian Emperor or Sunwoo are exactly that. If you want to know what they really think, or at least Etrurian, look at his response to your post where he said he stands by what he said. Because despite how it looks, him summing up how he feels there is significantly different from the argument you're presenting.

First of all that’s not what strawmanning means. Strawmanning is creating a strawman or a fake argument and attacking that instead of the actual point being made. I’m not doing that. Again Etruian says he stands by what he says in that Fates sidelines quality for the sake of pandering. How is that not the same as saying “fates can’t have deeper themes or ideas because it’s too busy pandering” it’s more or less the same argument and I don’t understand how you can try and tell me otherwise 

 

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So if you can read that and all you get from it is "Fates cannot have a deeper meaning because it’s just there to virtue signal" then you have misunderstood me. Because that's literally the final line of a post that's like 300 words long. This is a specific criticism of a specif plot point of Fates. Boiling down to my opinion (and my opinions of Fates are much larger than what's summed up in this quote, some good, some bad) "virtue signalling" is completely  misleading. I thought you were suggesting I was complaining about it's LGBT characters or something (which no doubt can be complained about, though it's not something I'm really interested enough in). So I'll say it here clearly. I do not believe "Fates cannot have a deeper meaning because it’s just there to virtue signal." I think it fails to have deeper meaning on making any point about pacifism and it's attempts to are virtue signalling. This in  no way means Fates exists purely to virtue signal as you suggest.

I mean you’re right but it’s not like the argument you actually made is that much better but I don’t have the time or energy to go into why. 

[Eltosian Kadath]

43 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Okay then tell me how Awakening’s story is a commentary on the flaws of democracy and capitalism or how it criticizes the judiciary system?

You jokes, but I have been looking at reviving my old Awakening LP, and this was a bit that I had written before, and decided to cut from it as being a bit too politically charged:

Quote

Gangrel has effectively used his pretend bandits as a way of establishing this blatant lie...kinda like the way Trump attacked the validity of mail-in votes, encourage his supporters to vote in-person despite the pandemic, and arranged for many Republican states to only count them later to sell the blatant lie about election fraud...

Honestly Trump's Plegia is a reading I could probably do... I don't plan on it, but there is a fair bit I could point to even in that first meeting...

 

 

[Ottservia]

3 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

You jokes, but I have been looking at reviving my old Awakening LP, and this was a bit that I had written before, and decided to cut from it as being a bit too politically charged:

Honestly Trump's Plegia is a reading I could probably do... I don't plan on it, but there is a fair bit I could point to even in that first meeting...

 

 

That still doesn’t take into account how Walhart, Validar, or Grima play into all of that. If you’re gonna say awakening is about that then you have to make all the pieces fit otherwise it’s not really an overarching theme because none of it connects. Also Gangrel being an allegory for trump is ridiculous because these games came out in japan 4 years before he came into office and 9 years before the whole invading the capital fiasco so any connection is either fitting a square peg into a round hole or just a general similarity in what awakening’s story is actually about and what it has to say about the corruption of truth and perpetuating conflict.

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

First of all that’s not what strawmanning means. Strawmanning is creating a strawman or a fake argument and attacking that instead of the actual point being made. I’m not doing that. Again Etruian says he stands by what he says in that Fates sidelines quality for the sake of pandering. How is that not the same as saying “fates can’t have deeper themes or ideas because it’s too busy pandering” it’s more or less the same argument and I don’t understand how you can try and tell me otherwise

But yes, that's what you were doing, both to Etrurian and to me. Because I didn't say "Fates cannot have a deeper meaning because it’s just there to virtue signal". That's the fake argument you created to argue against. Now both me and Etrurian stand by the points we made that lead you to come to this conclusion, but the argument you're arguing against is literally not what the argument is. And this is something you do absolutely all the time. Misunderstand the genuine criticism people actually have, argue against what you think they're saying, which is something along the lines of "It's impossible for Fates to be deep or meaningful because I don't like it and people" and then make a Naruto parallel and get Shadows of Valentia roped into it even though the vast majority of people who have issues with Fates probably also have significant issues with Shadows of Valentia.

[Ottservia]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But yes, that's what you were doing, both to Etrurian and to me. Because I didn't say "Fates cannot have a deeper meaning because it’s just there to virtue signal". That's the fake argument you created to argue against. Now both me and Etrurian stand by the points we made that lead you to come to this conclusion, but the argument you're arguing against is literally not what the argument is. And this is something you do absolutely all the time. Misunderstand the genuine criticism people actually have, argue against what you think they're saying, which is something along the lines of "It's impossible for Fates to be deep or meaningful because I don't like it and people" and then make a Naruto parallel and get Shadows of Valentia roped into it even though the vast majority of people who have issues with Fates probably also have significant issues with Shadows of Valentia.

Alright I’ll bite name one genuine criticism of fates and I’ll actually try to debunk it with no strawmanning or anything. I can guarantee two things.

1. No matter what argument I make you’re gonna call it a strawman

2. the criticism you bring up is probably gonna be a highly subjective point that cannot be argued.

[Eltosian Kadath]

5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That still doesn’t take into account how Walhart, Validar, or Grima play into all of that.

Just for the hypothetical I think it would work to fit Emmeryn as the ultimate failure of the Democrats to accomplish what they claim to be for, insisting on a progressiveness/peacefulness which is more illusion than fact; Walhart embodying the ultimate failures of communism, promising ideals of fairness, and economic rquality crushed beneath the interests of dictators, and oligarchs; Grima as the god-like gnawing and consuming beast of capitalism driving us all to its doom; and Validar as the seemingly sane part of the Republican party remaining, more effectively selling our future to feed that Grima/capitalism beast.

 

14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Also Gangrel being an allegory for trump is ridiculous because these games came out in japan 4 years before he came into office and 9 years before the whole invading the capital fiasco so any connection is either fitting a square peg into a round hole or just a general similarity in what awakening’s story is actually about and what it has to say about the corruption of truth and perpetuating conflict.

The timeless quality of art is that its meaning isn't fixed by its creator, people can view, and connect with it using their own perspective, circumstance, and world view.

 

8 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

 

2. the criticism you bring up is probably gonna be a highly subjective point that cannot be argued.

...its almost like the analysis of art tends to be subjective...

[Ottservia]

13 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The timeless quality of art is that its meaning isn't fixed by its creator, people can view, and connect with it using their own perspective, circumstance, and world view.

Yeah but that doesn’t mean that awakening was intentionally written with that allegory in mind. Also death of the author is stupid. I personally don’t believe in it.

 

13 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Just for the hypothetical I think it would work to fit Emmeryn as the ultimate failure of the Democrats to accomplish what they claim to be for, insisting on a progressiveness/peacefulness which is more illusion than fact; Walhart embodying the ultimate failures of communism, promising ideals of fairness, and economic rquality crushed beneath the interests of dictators, and oligarchs; Grima as the god-like gnawing and consuming beast of capitalism driving us all to its doom; and Validar as the seemingly sane part of the Republican party remaining, more effectively selling our future to feed that Grima/capitalism beast.

I mean sure you can kind of read that. Though I don’t think there’s enough concrete evidence within the narrative itself to really make a coherent thesis.

 

13 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

its almost like the analysis of art tends to be subjective...

I mean it’s like every time you open book the words suddenly change context. That’s not how that works. How one relates to a piece of art is subjective that much I will agree. But like again if you say Naruto is about hard work vs talent that just isn’t true. Like that claim is just wrong and provably so. It’s like saying SoV is hard work vs talent because it never really was about that and there’s zero evidence to really suggest that it is.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Ottservia

[Jotari]

33 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Alright I’ll bite name one genuine criticism of fates and I’ll actually try to debunk it with no strawmanning or anything. I can guarantee two things.

1. No matter what argument I make you’re gonna call it a strawman

2. the criticism you bring up is probably gonna be a highly subjective point that cannot be argued.

I don't think you can guarantee either of those points. And to be honest, I just don't feel like debating with you, because you're just plain not good at it. Why are we here? What are we doing? I'm trying to have fun and legitimately analyze plot and gameplay in the series. That's something I don't have the  fate (pun partially intended) that we can do together. It's not fun to discuss fates with you nor is it interesting. It's boring, repetitive and stale. So what motivation do I have to do so? It's not a hill I'm trying to die on. I don't have an issue with Fates. I have issues, as in criticisms of it, but like I said, I can say the same thing for literally every game in this series. I don't have an issue with Fates though, as in some kind of bone to pick. I don't think Fates even has the worst plot in the series. So why bother? Do you get any actual get fun spinning this yarn for three hundred pages? Or do you genuinely think you can change people's minds by using the exact same tactics? Like I said, I'm not trying to jump down your throat, I'm genuinely trying to help you understand other people. But the fact that your response is to try and argue more means you're just not willing to actually listen.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I don't think you can guarantee either of those points. And to be honest, I just don't feel like debating with you, because you're just plain not good at it. Why are we here? What are we doing? I'm trying to have fun and legitimately analyze plot and gameplay in the series. That's something I don't have the  fate (pun partially intended) that we can do together. It's not fun to discuss fates with you nor is it interesting. It's boring, repetitive and stale. So what motivation do I have to do so? It's not a hill I'm trying to die on. I don't have an issue with Fates. I have issues, as in criticisms of it, but like I said, I can say the same thing for literally every game in this series. I don't have an issue with Fates though, as in some kind of bone to pick. I don't think Fates even has the worst plot in the series. So why bother? Do you get any actual get fun spinning this yarn for three hundred pages? Or do you genuinely think you can change people's minds by using the exact same tactics? Like I said, I'm not trying to jump down your throat, I'm genuinely trying to help you understand other people. But the fact that your response is to try and argue more means you're just not willing to actually listen.

Honestly you don’t wanna debate this anymore that’s fine because you’re right these debates do go no where. As for why you think I don’t listen. The answer is quite simple. I’ve heard these arguments a million times before maybe not in regards to Fates specifically but other stories as well. If you genuinely think I don’t understand the arguments being presented then I’m sorry you’re wrong. When you hear the same argument repeated a million different times in slightly different ways then it starts to get a little annoying. Hearing how Lilith’s death is dumb because it’s underdeveloped is similar to criticism of how some people feel about [REDACTED]’s death in One Piece. People saying Ryoma’s death is stupid is like saying pain’s death in Naruto is stupid. Like I’ve heard these arguments before trust me just in slightly different contexts. Then there are the world building complaints and “plot contrivance” which are also really stupid. And the complaints about the game being too anime can actually be seen as somewhat xenophobic but I’ll leave that where it lies.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Both. I don't consider it worth it when I could've gotten better results with an earlier recruitment. And to be honest, if I'm planning on using the kids, I'd probably be picking them up before enemies promote anyway (Kana being the exception in the event I plan to have Corrin marry Flora; Kana's paralogue is easy anyway due to chokepoints galore).

Yeah, but also no stat screwage + (easy) weapon ranks. 

To cut it short: I think OS are an oh-shit-button in case something goes wrong down the line and for that they work. Maybe not great, maybe not terrible, useful nevertheless.

[Jotari]

13 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Honestly you don’t wanna debate this anymore that’s fine because you’re right these debates do go no where. As for why you think I don’t listen. The answer is quite simple. I’ve heard these arguments a million times before maybe not in regards to Fates specifically but other stories as well. If you genuinely think I don’t understand the arguments being presented then I’m sorry you’re wrong. When you hear the same argument repeated a million different times in slightly different ways then it starts to get a little annoying. Hearing how Lilith’s death is dumb because it’s underdeveloped is similar to criticism of how some people feel about [REDACTED]’s death in One Piece. People saying Ryoma’s death is stupid is like saying pain’s death in Naruto is stupid. Like I’ve heard these arguments before trust me just in slightly different contexts. Then there are the world building complaints and “plot contrivance” which are also really stupid. And the complaints about the game being too anime can actually be seen as somewhat xenophobic but I’ll leave that where it lies.

You prove my point there with your lumping together arguments from "people" instead of actually listening to the people you're really talking to. The phrase "Ryoma's death is stupid" has been made on this site precisely once, by you, just now. And now twice with me in this post. Literally no one on Serenes has ever said "Ryoma's death is stupid". Maybe they've said some variation of it with extra context that you just axe because you're not listening. Even doing a google search of "Ryoma's death is stupid", the only relevant Fire Emblem result that comes up is a GameFaqs thread about Ryoma's death being better than Xander's.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

17 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

When you hear the same argument repeated a million different times in slightly different ways then it starts to get a little annoying. Hearing how Lilith’s death is dumb because it’s underdeveloped is similar to criticism of how some people feel about [REDACTED]’s death in One Piece

I think that's more a case of apples and oranges personally. Because even if redacted could have used some more screentime he's still a part of the One Piece World and the One Piece story. A defined place in the pirating world, a clash with one of the most prominent villains, an arc dedicated entirely around his situation and even some spin off stories dedicated to his exploits. 

It would me more similar if redacted's only role in the story was giving Luffy a Vivri card and then disappearing until it was time for him to randomly died. And he then remained around to goof off with Luffy after he had died.

17 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

And the complaints about the game being too anime can actually be seen as somewhat xenophobic but I’ll leave that where it lies.

It might be for the layman. But if you're a Fire Emblem fan then that implies you enjoy anime inspiration. Fire Emblem has always been anime so we can safely assume that this in itself is not a deal breaker for any Fire Emblem fan. But there is a difference between being anime and being ''skinship with your real little sister and oh yeah mom gave me this letter'' anime. Or more concretely: One can indulge oneselves in everything Japanese through Persona 5 and appropriate the anime aesthetics of Fire Emblem while at the same time that the large focus on Idols and high school students is a step too much in Tokyo mirrage. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[Eltosian Kadath]

24 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Also death of the author is stupid. I personally don’t believe in it.

Then you are blinding yourself to a fair bit of art criticism, despite your lofty talk about how people should look past their biases and explore every angle.

 

19 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean it’s like every time you open book the words suddenly change context. That’s not how that works.

With the best art, it kinda does. You can come back to a good piece of art, and find it has been re-contextualized in a way that brings forth new meaning.

 

36 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

But like again if you say Naruto is about hard work vs talent that just isn’t true. Like that claim is just wrong and provably so.

I neither know enough, nor care enough about Boruto's dad, and his army of frienemies, to really comment one way or another on this topic.

 

7 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

It’s like saying SoV is hard work vs talent because it never really was about that and there’s zero evidence to really suggest that it is.

...Isn't one of your major complaints about SoV is how Alm's talent undermines the contrast between Nobles, and peasants? The noble and peasant themes are so linked to hard work vs. talent, that its rather easy to find evidence for hard work vs. talent being a thematic component of SoV.