What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Shrimpica]

45 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

What about Micaiah? She's a strong main character overall. She does get overshadowed a bit, which is a shame, but she still is a strong character.

falls into the Tellius exception

She's pretty well written, yeah, and while i have a personal gripe with her, that one can be explained with her role in the Story as the Avatar of Order.

Infact i wanted once to write a big wall o text on Ike and Miccy, explaining how they both represent Chaos and order respectively, and how that fits with the story themes so well, but i was too lazy to do it...Maybe one day i will get to writing this. 

I honestly also don't think Ike overshadows her, because it's more like Yune does steal her role later on rather than Ike.

Also helps that she's one of my fav. lords to use gameplay wise (even if she needs alot of bexp to fix her spd), with being one of the rare mage lords and sacrifice ultility until she gets staves. Well, Celica is kinda similar gameplaywise, but Celica has Gaiden maps

Edited December 24, 2021 by Father Shrimpas

[vanguard333]

14 minutes ago, Father Shrimpas said:

falls into the Tellius exception

That's the reason I also mentioned Lucina from Awakening.

 

17 minutes ago, Father Shrimpas said:

Also helps that she's one of my fav. lords to use gameplay wise (even if she needs alot of bexp to fix her spd), with being one of the rare mage lords and sacrifice ultility until she gets staves. Well, except Celica, but Celica has Gaiden maps

Micaiah is one of my favourite lord characters to use gameplay-wise as well. I like the idea of a light mage lord and she is a pretty good unit outside of her speed.

[Dark Holy Elf]

We need more mage lords in general. They're very fun.

2 hours ago, Samz707 said:

And at least in Mathilda's case, it does lead to a kinda interesting encounter where you have a friendly unit in distress/constant attack that functions as soft-time limit of sorts. (even if the Echoes CG Art for when Fernand visits her is dumb, at least it's one scene as opposed to the awful "sexy" character design in Heroes/Awakening that you constantly see so it bothers me less as opposed to waifu'd Lyn in Heroes.)

I'm not really sure how Lyn's design is any "worse" than Mathilda's to be honest. But regardless I care much more about general portrayal than design specifics. The problem with Mathilda is clear from the quote I presented earlier, and additionally I find the CG art hard to forgive. Even compared to other needlessly sexualized scenes, it's way creepier to sexualize imprisonment. I don't dislike Mathilda per se, but I do dislike the game for the way it treats her, especially considering that she's supposed to be a badass warrior.

I also don't find the "Myson helps rescue the kids at the start" remotely comparable to the other damselfication examples, nor the Valbar trio where they're actively fighting back. But I suspect we may have to agree to disagree on that one.

[joevar]

8 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

So it really wouldn't surprise me if some of the writers have outdated beliefs on what a woman's role should be and it seeps into the writing, one way or another.

are you not surprised all FE took place in "outdated" era all this time 😄

6 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The double standard is more that the characters created to blatantly appeal to female attracted individuals are far more mainstream than characters made to blatantly appeal to male attracted individuals. Note that both mainstream and blatantly is an important parts of that sentence.

my two cents about this: the amount of female gamer who invested/immersed themselves deep in the games are still statistically way lower than male gamer. so asking things to be perfect equal on everything seems already fail. so a little bit of double standard in general audience games seems unavoidable.

 

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 this may be unpopular opinion or actually sexist comment:

Its better for female characters (in FE ofc) to do what female char can do best, rather than trying to replace male character roles.

in other words, i dont think making an "Alm" character female, while making "Celica" character male will solve bad writing in regards to strong/good characterization between male and female char. so a "celica" character should be doing what she did best for half of the game, while the later part changed to something else that still in line with the first half. in other words, the best course of action is to not make the other look bad so someone can look better

extreme bad joke case

Spoiler

remember Hector in FE6? would you see him in a hypothetical remake getting saved from jail (after losing against zephiel) with an artwork showing him stripped naked after torture in jail cell when saved, just to see that male char be in weak position that so many female char in FE suffer from, to equalize the bad treatment count number?

i think someone like mathilda getting saved in disgraceful art even tho she's big deal not the start of problem since she lost after all, but not getting any meaningful role and sidelined, thats where the problem start

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by joevar

[vanguard333]

22 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

We need more mage lords in general. They're very fun.

I agree. In fact, one idea I had for a while was that there should be a Fire Emblem game about two brothers: the older brother is a typical swordsman lord and is the crown prince, while the younger brother is a frail and sickly mage lord.

[joevar]

5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I agree. In fact, one idea I had for a while was that there should be a Fire Emblem game about two brothers: the older brother is a typical swordsman lord and is the crown prince, while the younger brother is a frail and sickly mage lord.

but make sure the frail and sickly mage lord does have low HP cap, take damage more than average people, and/or have diminishing HP for almost each turn. or the setting will be just lip service

[vanguard333]

Just now, joevar said:

but make sure the frail and sickly mage lord does have low HP cap, take damage more than average people, and/or have diminishing HP for almost each turn. or the setting will be just lip service

I was thinking low HP and extremely low strength. I was also thinking of a moment where, after a grueling march to a fortress, he vomits and passes out; worrying everyone in the army.

[Acacia Sgt]

On a similar subject, personally I've had on the mind that FE should do a pure-support Lord for at least one game. Absolutely no means of fighting back, but instead can heal/refresh/rally/whathaveyou, having some at start and gaining the rest at promotion.

[Florete]

38 minutes ago, joevar said:

are you not surprised all FE took place in "outdated" era all this time 😄

FE doesn't take place in any real historical era, so this argument holds no water.

38 minutes ago, joevar said:

my two cents about this: the amount of female gamer who invested/immersed themselves deep in the games are still statistically way lower than male gamer. so asking things to be perfect equal on everything seems already fail. so a little bit of double standard in general audience games seems unavoidable.

And part of the reason for that is these common sexist tropes that a lot of potential female gamers don't want to see. It's circular logic. Why aren't games made for girls? Because girls don't play games. Why don't girls play games? Because games aren't made for girls.

(Note that this isn't necessarily the case today, it's just the logic the above quote results in)

42 minutes ago, joevar said:

 this may be unpopular opinion or actually sexist comment:

Its better for female characters (in FE ofc) to do what female char can do best, rather than trying to replace male character roles.

in other words, i dont think making an "Alm" character female, while making "Celica" character male will solve bad writing in regards to strong/good characterization between male and female char. so a "celica" character should be doing what she did best for half of the game, while the later part changed to something else that still in line with the first half. in other words, the best course of action is to not make the other look bad so someone can look better

While that last sentence on its own is good advice, this is a pretty horrible way overall to go about it, if I'm understanding it right. If you're stuck in the idea that there are "male character roles" and "female character roles" and that characters should stick to them, you'll always be seeing the same characters with little diversity. You don't need a "female Alm," you can just have a female character who shares traits with Alm (but hopefully not too many because Alm is awful). Same for Celica.

[Eltosian Kadath]

2 hours ago, joevar said:

my two cents about this: the amount of female gamer who invested/immersed themselves deep in the games are still statistically way lower than male gamer. so asking things to be perfect equal on everything seems already fail. so a little bit of double standard in general audience games seems unavoidable.

 

The number don't agree with you there, statistically female gamers are more likely to play games specifically for a sense of immersion (of both world and story), and seeking completion than male gamers. Now if your argument was about female gamers being less interested in online competitive games with toxic communities (FPS, Fighting Games, Racing games, Sports games etc.) then you would be closer to right.

 

2 hours ago, joevar said:

remember Hector in FE6? would you see him in a hypothetical remake getting saved from jail (after losing against zephiel) with an artwork showing him stripped naked after torture in jail cell when saved, just to see that male char be in weak position that so many female char in FE suffer from, to equalize the bad treatment count number?

Terrible example there, as I think you could make something like that work with Hector given FE7. Hector was all about being strong to his own detriment, and to have his end coming after him being stripped of his own strength has a tragic irony to it. Now for other characters, like Eliwood, that really wouldn't work...

 

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

What about Micaiah? She's a strong main character overall. She does get overshadowed a bit, which is a shame, but she still is a strong character.

There's also Lucina. I can't believe I'm about to compliment Awakening, since I'm rather placid on it overall, but the story does utilize Lucina very well, all things considered, and she is a strong main character.

Eh. It utilizes her decently well. Waaaaay better than any of the other child units who basically don't exist as far as the story is concerned (and I think that's a bit of a missed opportunity). But Lucina does have a hard time fitting into the Valm arc. Less her fault and more Valm arc having trouble fitting into the game as a whole. Would have been nice at least for Lucina to interact personally with Tiki, but I guess they just had planned out the whole Future Past scenario yet to know Lucina had already met Tiki.

4 hours ago, Father Shrimpas said:

falls into the Tellius exception

She's pretty well written, yeah, and while i have a personal gripe with her, that one can be explained with her role in the Story as the Avatar of Order.

Infact i wanted once to write a big wall o text on Ike and Miccy, explaining how they both represent Chaos and order respectively, and how that fits with the story themes so well, but i was too lazy to do it...Maybe one day i will get to writing this. 

I honestly also don't think Ike overshadows her, because it's more like Yune does steal her role later on rather than Ike.

Also helps that she's one of my fav. lords to use gameplay wise (even if she needs alot of bexp to fix her spd), with being one of the rare mage lords and sacrifice ultility until she gets staves. Well, Celica is kinda similar gameplaywise, but Celica has Gaiden maps

But Micaiah is the literal avatar of chaos?

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I also don't find the "Myson helps rescue the kids at the start" remotely comparable to the other damselfication examples, nor the Valbar trio where they're actively fighting back. But I suspect we may have to agree to disagree on that one.

I was the one that brought up the Valbar squad and I did that mainly because I expected people to point to Palla and Catria as pattern examples of women that need to be saved when the two of them are in, basically, the exact same situation as Valbar's threesome (innuendo intended).

21 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The number don't agree with you there, statistically female gamers are more likely to play games specifically for a sense of immersion (of both world and story), and seeking completion than male gamers. Now if your argument was about female gamers being less interested in online competitive games with toxic communities (FPS, Fighting Games, Racing games, Sports games etc.) then you would be closer to right.

There's a difference in statements there. Statistically female games can be more likely to play games for a sense of immersion than male games, while also statistically the amount of female gamers who want to play games for immersion can be lower than the amount of male gamers. Because if there are 2 girls playing video games and both of them want to play for immersion, that makes for 100% of girls that want to play for immersion. But if there are 10 boys playing video games and only 4 want to play for immersion, that's 40% that want to do so, but it's also twice the player base of the girls.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Jotari

[Eltosian Kadath]

13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

There's a difference in statements there. Statistically female games can be more likely to play games for a sense of immersion than male games, while also statistically the amount of female gamers who want to play games for immersion can be lower than the amount of male gamers. Because if there are 2 girls playing video games and both of them want to play for immersion, that makes for 100% of girls that want to play for immersion. But if there are 10 boys playing video games and only 4 want to play for immersion, that's 40% that want to do so, but it's also twice the player base of the girls.

The difference between number of female gamers and male gamers simply isn't that great, its about 45% female 55% male last I checked, and scaling all the female demographic I was using by the 9/11 ratio of population difference we see there this all holds true.

[Jotari]

28 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The difference between number of female gamers and male gamers simply isn't that great, its about 45% female 55% male last I checked, and scaling all the female demographic I was using by the 9/11 ratio of population difference we see there this all holds true.

I wasn't making a comment on that, just on the fact that the two statements made were different and not mutually exclusive. Though I am dubious about that ratio.

[joevar]

 

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The number don't agree with you there,

 

really? is that the newest statistic? i guess im still using very old argument / statistic/ poll unconsciously right there.

maybe i will ask my families whos still teenager about how many of their female classmate games, and how serious they are about it nowadays. since wherever that poll took place pretty sure its not including my country

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Terrible example there, as I think you could make something like that work with Hector given FE7. Hector was all about being strong to his own detriment, and to have his end coming after him being stripped of his own strength has a tragic irony to it. Now for other characters, like Eliwood, that really wouldn't work...

sorry i think i don't get what you mean there. please elaborate it a little bit more, unless you want me to misunderstand your point.

also just in case, you do understand my point/intention in my " extreme bad joke case "  there, dont you?

3 hours ago, Florete said:

FE doesn't take place in any real historical era, so this argument holds no water.

alright. half joking about that after all, if that argument goes straight to trash bin i dont mind.

3 hours ago, Florete said:

And part of the reason for that is these common sexist tropes that a lot of potential female gamers don't want to see. It's circular logic. Why aren't games made for girls? Because girls don't play games. Why don't girls play games? Because games aren't made for girls.

i agree it come from bad circular logic. I even use a reverse point of that logic 10 years ago when my gf ask "why boy like to play games so much" to me. (because its made by boys that grows up, it contain what boy like/aspire, etc etc). And its not like im really oblivious to recent effort such as report of IS hiring more female developer than male in recent year. which means some changes are expected.

but before someone point it out, i admit i dont give any solution for that matter.

3 hours ago, Florete said:

While that last sentence on its own is good advice, this is a pretty horrible way overall to go about it, if I'm understanding it right. If you're stuck in the idea that there are "male character roles" and "female character roles" and that characters should stick to them, you'll always be seeing the same characters with little diversity. You don't need a "female Alm," you can just have a female character who shares traits with Alm (but hopefully not too many because Alm is awful). Same for Celica.

at least you seems agree with last sentence

part of the reason why im saying it like that because some comments above my original post were comparing how many versus how many (in terms of getting bad writing/bad personalization/etc) , to me it sounds like if we reverse it exactly until it reach same numbers, then it would stop being a bias problem. hence why i use alm and celica for easy use of swapping role. i deliberately not said anything about what Alm or Celica did, or what role exactly it is.

another reason is I'm a bad writer like i already said in some previous post, so bad wording and example will be mixed in.. but surely it wont be convincing argument...

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I was thinking low HP and extremely low strength. I was also thinking of a moment where, after a grueling march to a fortress, he vomits and passes out; worrying everyone in the army.

uhh unless it use stat calculation im not familiar with, low strength or even 0 str for that matter should not impede a Mage lord that much. unless you meant strength as in attack power equivalent

[Eltosian Kadath]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Though I am dubious about that ratio.

If you find it dubious, you can always seek out statistics you find more trustworthy on the subject.

 

1 minute ago, joevar said:

 

really? is that the newest statistic? i guess im still using very old argument / statistic/ poll unconsciously right there.

About 5 years ago. Do you have more recent numbers about motivation for playing videogames delineated by gender?

 

3 minutes ago, joevar said:

 

maybe i will ask my families whos still teenager about how many of their female classmate games, and how serious they are about it nowadays. since wherever that poll took place pretty sure its not including my country

It was US numbers for what that is worth. The way you are describing asking for second hand accounts makes me doubt you will see any results at all, but good luck I guess ?

 

7 minutes ago, joevar said:

sorry i think i don't get what you mean there. please elaborate it a little bit more, unless you want me to misunderstand your point.

Hector's character is centered around the ways his strength is to his detriment. At FE7's start he is ashamed that his reputation as a lout only good for fighting has left him unable to help his brother in the Ostian courts; he admits to Lyn the pain of being unable to cry at his parent's death because he had to be strong in front of others, only to be haunted by his inability to do so even in private; he willingly trades his right to a peaceful death amongst family and friends to the ghost of Durban for the strength of Armads, etc.. Hector is all about strength, and its brutal costs on a person, and to see him so dis-empowered is a visceral way of showing Hector's death even without gore.

[Jotari]

23 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

If you find it dubious, you can always seek out statistics you find more trustworthy on the subject.

I don't think any good statistics have been made for the subject.

[Alastor15243]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I don't think any good statistics have been made for the subject.

Also, which genres are male and female dominated would be good information to have as well, because it can't possibly be a uniform ratio across the board and has to vary wildly.

[Jotari]

59 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Also, which genres are male and female dominated would be good information to have as well, because it can't possibly be a uniform ratio across the board and has to vary wildly.

Yeah, if you count Candy Crush then those numbers are more likely to be correct.

[Metal Flash]

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

We need more mage lords in general. They're very fun.

Absolutely, I would love to have another pure Mage Lord. Hell, maybe the next gave could have three, one who uses Anima, one who uses Dark and one that uses Light. Either way, more Mage Lords please, pure mage Lords would be best.

[Lightcosmo]

I dunno if this is unpopular, but i would like to see RD's magic triangle(s) come back, alotta depth there imo.

[Etrurian emperor]

12 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

What about Micaiah? She's a strong main character overall. She does get overshadowed a bit, which is a shame, but she still is a strong character.

I think she's a good character. I think she's an interesting character. But ''strong'' isn't exactly the word I'd use. I'd say she stands out as pretty fragile. 

[joevar]

5 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Hector's character is centered around the ways his strength is to his detriment. At FE7's start he is ashamed that his reputation as a lout only good for fighting has left him unable to help his brother in the Ostian courts; he admits to Lyn the pain of being unable to cry at his parent's death because he had to be strong in front of others, only to be haunted by his inability to do so even in private; he willingly trades his right to a peaceful death amongst family and friends to the ghost of Durban for the strength of Armads, etc.. Hector is all about strength, and its brutal costs on a person, and to see him so dis-empowered is a visceral way of showing Hector's death even without gore.

oh my guess were correct... im afraid that not my point at all. for my Extreme Bad Joke case to be understood you need to assume FE7 doesnt exist, or the character history need to be put aside. its a headache to explain, thats why i set it aside in spoiler not in the argument

5 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

It was US numbers for what that is worth. The way you are describing asking for second hand accounts makes me doubt you will see any results at all, but good luck I guess ?

Figures, im at the exact opposite of the earth from US. also its not to replace statistic authenticity, but just for personal curiosity. thankfully im not dumb enough to butthead people who use statistic with argument made from asking some (small number of) random teenager. more like want to know if those statistic apply to my area

Edited December 24, 2021 by joevar

[vanguard333]

7 hours ago, joevar said:

uhh unless it use stat calculation im not familiar with, low strength or even 0 str for that matter should not impede a Mage lord that much. unless you meant strength as in attack power equivalent

Are you familiar with weight? Spells sometimes have weight in FE, so low strength can impede a mage in those games.

[AnonymousSpeed]

2 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

I dunno if this is unpopular, but i would like to see RD's magic triangle(s) come back, alotta depth there imo.

I honestly didn't like it. I think a lot of people remember it fondly, but I never found it very impactful.

[Alastor15243]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Are you familiar with weight? Spells sometimes have weight in FE, so low strength can impede a mage in those games.

Depends on what stat offsets weight. That's varied between strength, constitution, and nothing at all.