What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Etrurian emperor]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

This is definitely my take on it. It's a stupid explanation which isn't backed up by anything else in the game, and there's no hint of it in the dialog at the time. It also contradicts the in-game interface where the Chapter 27 Zelgius fight has the exact same stats as his previous appearances... which is consistent if he was holding back a bit all three times, but makes no sense if only the Chapter 27 fight should be weakened due to malfunctioning warp powder.

The explanation in the localization is consistent with the personality we see in both games. It's not as if the "obsessed with a duel with Greil at his full strength" wasn't already in the game. It's fine to not like that aspect of the character but it was always there:

Kinda but not entirely. 

The Black Knight loving a fight was clearly established in POR already but the game didn't really say that the Black Knight murdered Greil just for the thrill of a good fight. The game alluded that there were other motives at play and the Black Knight seems actually quite venomously towards Greil. He even celebrates the idea of being able to wipe out Greil's entire family in POR, while Radiant Dawn later suggests that there wasn't a single ounce of bad blood between the men. In POR he gloats ''Gawain's daughter, eh? Good. Now I can pull out the entire family tree by the root'' while in RD he's all ''Oh no! The general's children!'' when he sees them in danger. The writers do seem to have changed their minds of what they wanted to do with the Black Knight between the two games. POR suggested he had a grudge against Greil while RD made it a point to make it clear that he didn't, and that he just wanted a good fight. 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Etrurian emperor

[Dark Holy Elf]

 

19 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

In POR he gloats ''Gawain's daughter, eh? Good. Now I can pull out the entire family tree by the root'' while in RD he's all ''Oh no! The general's children!'' when he sees them in danger.

To be fair there are ~15 years separating those two lines (the RD line you quoted is from a distant flashback). Plenty of time for Zelgius to increasingly become obsessed with Greil in unhealthy ways. That said I agree that the PoR line there is a bit odd... and honestly is at odds with his characterization in PoR itself. If he actually wanted to kill Greil's family tree, he would have killed Ike in their earlier meetings. I can't recall any other line that actually suggests "bad blood" as you put it (beyond, y'know, wanting to fight someone to the death).

Regardless, even if you feel that parts of Zelgius's characterization changed significantly, it doesn't change my point that the particular plot point about Zelgius being obsessed with surpassing Greil (and later Ike, e.g. he orders the Daein soldiers in Chapter 27 not to help him) in a "fair" fight was always present. So it can't be considered out of character that he would want Ike to become Greil's equal before taking him down.

[Etrurian emperor]

7 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

To be fair there are ~15 years separating those two lines (the RD line you quoted is from a distant flashback). Plenty of time for Zelgius to increasingly become obsessed with Greil in unhealthy ways. That said I agree that the PoR line there is a bit odd... and honestly is at odds with his characterization in PoR itself. If he actually wanted to kill Greil's family tree, he would have killed Ike in their earlier meetings. I can't recall any other line that actually suggests "bad blood" as you put it (beyond, y'know, wanting to fight someone to the death).

I'm not sure. He already seemed pretty cruel to the Greil family during the duel. Even promising to torture Mist if he doesn't get the medallion. He seems thoroughly cold rather than just someone coming for a good sporting duel. I recall Greil also mumbling something about having made the Black Knight that way when he's dying. And Ike surviving could have been due to the Lion king forcing Zelgius into retreat. BK indeed laments his presence when he hears the roar. 

I think the spawn of time could definitely have made Zelgius harden his stance on Greil and the kids, but during the final duel it becomes clear that this isn't the case. He parts with Ike on mostly good terms with him never once suggesting he detests them or Greil.

11 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Regardless, even if you feel that parts of Zelgius's characterization changed significantly, it doesn't change my point that the particular plot point about Zelgius being obsessed with surpassing Greil (and later Ike, e.g. he orders the Daein soldiers in Chapter 27 not to help him) in a "fair" fight was always present. So it can't be considered out of character that he would want Ike to become Greil's equal before taking him down.

On its own I never minded that particular plot point and I more or less agree. Him grooming Ike as an opponent was always sensible enough, and in line with Daein's warrior culture. The problem was more that the joyride of a good battle turned out to be the only motive Zelgius had and the game not really understanding that this makes him kind of a monster rather than an honorable knight. 

[lenticular]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I wouldn't say he had an arc in Path of Radiance. He was more just a hurdle for Ike's arc than any real character of his own. We don't ever get any explanation for his motivations as to why he's serving Ashnard. They do intentionally make it a mystery and if he just never showed up in the sequel or was never mentioned then it would leave him as a weird sort of character in Path of Radiance whose doing the things he does for...reasons. That being said, it actually wouldn't be too difficult to write him out of Radiant Dawn. Most truly plot crucial actions he takes he does so as Zelgius in Part 3.

That's fair. It was probably a poor choice of words for me to describe him as having an "arc". You're right that he doesn't, really. But I did feel that his story was complete. But then, I think I'm generally happier with unanswered questions than a lot of people are, and I can see how it might be an issue for people who hate that sort of stuff. Except that what we ended up with was a lot of inconsistency between PoR and RD, which honestly feels like it asks more questions than it answers. At least, it does if you want to try to take the story seriously and not just brush it off as "the writers didn't know wha tthey were doing".

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

As far as the other revivals go, Oliver was obviously done for the sake of humor. So if one doesn't find his whole schitck funny then it's obviously not going to work.

Well, let's just say that I don't find Oliver even the tiniest bit funny and leave it at that.

27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

For Renning it is a bit more narratively dubious. I feel like that was an idea they had in Path of Radiance that they really wanted to fire off in Radiant Dawn, but had no idea how. Shoving him into Part 4 along with Izuka really brings down the act as a whole as it feels so blatantly like they're wrapping up loose ends that they just couldn't address elsewhere. This already exists to some extent with the senators being revived (despite Lehran hating them) and the blood pact and stuff, but Izuka and Renning showing up just kind of begs belief (and it also brings Elincia's crown kind of into question since Renning was the one both raised and publicly expected to be the next king, which I thought they actually addressed but I've never seen it looking thought he script). Renning was probably a case where it's best to just let an old idea you set up die rather than forcing some way to execute it. On the other hand people don't seem that pushed by Renning's survival and we got a decent gold knight out of it, so eh.

I also vaguely recall there being a line about how he isn't going to contest Elincia's reign, yes. Though I think it was just a single throwaway line somewhere, basically saying "we acknowledge that this could have been a plot point but we don't want to deal with it so we're just going to mention it quickly and hope that's enough". And for me, Renning on his own isn't the problem so much as the fact that it's that on top of the other characters who are brough back, and on top of all the other little inconsistencies or retcons. Each one on its own is acceptable, but in aggregate, they made me enjoy the game less.

(And yes, he's a perfectly serviceable unit, but it's not as if Radiant Dawn has a shortage of decent cavalry units or a shortage of end game units, so I don't think much would be lost from a pure gameplay perspective if he weren't around.)

[AnonymousSpeed]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Imagine if Ashnard, Petrine and Shiharam came back too and Sanaki became evil, then you'd have Mystery of the Emblem.

Sounds kind of cool tbqh.

[Dark Holy Elf]

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm not sure. He already seemed pretty cruel to the Greil family during the duel. Even promising to torture Mist if he doesn't get the medallion. He seems thoroughly cold rather than just someone coming for a good sporting duel. I recall Greil also mumbling something about having made the Black Knight that way when he's dying. And Ike surviving could have been due to the Lion king forcing Zelgius into retreat. BK indeed laments his presence when he hears the roar. 

I think the spawn of time could definitely have made Zelgius harden his stance on Greil and the kids, but during the final duel it becomes clear that this isn't the case. He parts with Ike on mostly good terms with him never once suggesting he detests them or Greil.

On its own I never minded that particular plot point and I more or less agree. Him grooming Ike as an opponent was always sensible enough, and in line with Daein's warrior culture. The problem was more that the joyride of a good battle turned out to be the only motive Zelgius had and the game not really understanding that this makes him kind of a monster rather than an honorable knight. 

He's trying to get the medallion, and Greil knows where it is. Threatening to kill or torture someone dear to a person you're interrogating is pretty standard villain protocol. Doesn't mean it's personal or that he holds particular malice for the person he wants information from.

In addition to Chapter 7, Zelgius lets Ike go in Chapter 24, as well, because he wants a "fair" duel with him (and Ike claims not to have Ragnell). Again, if killing Greil's bloodline was a priority, he had the chance to do so there; there's no Caingehis in sight this time.

And yeah he's a twisted person, not an "honourable knight". The game wants you to sympathize with him - he latched onto Greil because he had so much trouble forming bonds with people due to being Branded - but he's not remotely portrayed as a good guy. He helps Ashnard and Sephiran start bloody wars, and never shows the slightest remorse about the blood on his hands. Ike respects him as a warrior but he never says "too bad we killed him, he seemed like a good dude". He's happy to avenge his father. Sothe, who frequently comes closest to the voice of morality throughout the game, hates him.

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

That's fair. It was probably a poor choice of words for me to describe him as having an "arc". You're right that he doesn't, really. But I did feel that his story was complete. But then, I think I'm generally happier with unanswered questions than a lot of people are, and I can see how it might be an issue for people who hate that sort of stuff.

I dunno; I remember playing PoR and thinking there was no way his story was complete. Why does he take orders from Sephiran? What motivation did he have for helping Ashnard? What was his connection to Greil? What happened to him after a castle fell on him? (I can't imagine many players seriously thought he died there; I certainly didn't.) I'm definitely okay with some unanswered questions but this is way too many for me; everything screamed that this character had more of a role to play.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, lenticular said:

That's fair. It was probably a poor choice of words for me to describe him as having an "arc". You're right that he doesn't, really. But I did feel that his story was complete. But then, I think I'm generally happier with unanswered questions than a lot of people are, and I can see how it might be an issue for people who hate that sort of stuff. Except that what we ended up with was a lot of inconsistency between PoR and RD, which honestly feels like it asks more questions than it answers. At least, it does if you want to try to take the story seriously and not just brush it off as "the writers didn't know wha tthey were doing".

I think the writers did know what they were doing, plans just change because, well writing is hard. Specifically for the Black Knight, they do when making Path of Radiance that he was the same person as Zelgius. I think their ingame stats (Zelgius unseen) are identical and if the two of them weren't the same, then Zelgius would just be a weirdly minor character to include. There's an article from before Radiant Dawn on this very site talking about the then theory, so people were calling it at the time, it wasn't something retroactive. So what (little) we see of Zelgius in Path of Radiance is an element they had to work into the Black Knight's character going forward. The noble knight had to be a part of his character too, even if it were only a facade. Really I think all they truly needed to unite the two ideas of the character is a genuinely villainous mmoent in Radiant Dawn. Because aside from just siding with Ashera (or rather Lehran) at the end, he never actually does anything bad. His evil deeds in Radiant Dawn are about the same as Hetzel's.

8 hours ago, lenticular said:

I also vaguely recall there being a line about how he isn't going to contest Elincia's reign, yes. Though I think it was just a single throwaway line somewhere, basically saying "we acknowledge that this could have been a plot point but we don't want to deal with it so we're just going to mention it quickly and hope that's enough". And for me, Renning on his own isn't the problem so much as the fact that it's that on top of the other characters who are brough back, and on top of all the other little inconsistencies or retcons. Each one on its own is acceptable, but in aggregate, they made me enjoy the game less.

Indeed, but I think of the three Renning is just the most problematic to bring back, at least with how they handled his return in Part 4 of Radiant Dawn.

8 hours ago, lenticular said:

(And yes, he's a perfectly serviceable unit, but it's not as if Radiant Dawn has a shortage of decent cavalry units or a shortage of end game units, so I don't think much would be lost from a pure gameplay perspective if he weren't around.)

My point was more how bad writing can be more easily forgiven in a video game if it comes with material rewards.

[vanguard333]

Regarding Renning, to be fair, Renning being Bertram was planned as far back as Path of Radiance, as evidenced by his artwork in the game's files matching Bertram's, among other things. But I agree that his return could've been handled a lot better.

 

13 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

He's trying to get the medallion, and Greil knows where it is. Threatening to kill or torture someone dear to a person you're interrogating is pretty standard villain protocol. Doesn't mean it's personal or that he holds particular malice for the person he wants information from.

In addition to Chapter 7, Zelgius lets Ike go in Chapter 24, as well, because he wants a "fair" duel with him (and Ike claims not to have Ragnell). Again, if killing Greil's bloodline was a priority, he had the chance to do so there; there's no Caingehis in sight this time.

And yeah he's a twisted person, not an "honourable knight". The game wants you to sympathize with him - he latched onto Greil because he had so much trouble forming bonds with people due to being Branded - but he's not remotely portrayed as a good guy. He helps Ashnard and Sephiran start bloody wars, and never shows the slightest remorse about the blood on his hands. Ike respects him as a warrior but he never says "too bad we killed him, he seemed like a good dude". He's happy to avenge his father. Sothe, who frequently comes closest to the voice of morality throughout the game, hates him.

Pretty much all this. The Black Knight never shows ill will towards Ike and Mist; he only threatens to kill them because his mission was to get the medallion. Plus, him realizing something was off about his fight with Greil was established in Path of Radiance with him saying, "Is that... all there is? No challenge? No resistance?" after beating Greil in the cutscene.

[ping]

I wonder how Renning and Burger King would've worked as posthumous characters in Radiant Dawn. For the former, the game wouldn't have had to be changed too much, I guess - instead of succeeding in his rescue, Bastian would have found out that they had been tricked/forced to kill Renning in the previous war, which could've been another dramatic moment for Elincia.

BK is obviously more involved in the plot, and with PoR leaving too many questions open (Why did BK listen to Sephiran? What was his connection to Greil?), Ike/the player would have to find answers somehow. I personally don't find the BK's role in Radiant Dawn very satisfying to begin with, so revealing Zelgius's character and motivation through people who knew him could maybe have worked better than what we have.

Scratch that, removing BK would mean one less dude obsessing over protecting Micky, which would be a definite improvement. Can we somehow get rid of Sothe in the process of rewriting, too?

[Shadow Mir]

Killer weapons and brave weapons suck in Fates. Both are too unreliable and weak to justify the high price tag, and in the case of braves, that's on top of the defense drops (melee weapons) or halved strength/magic (ranged weapons).

[Alastor15243]

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Killer weapons and brave weapons suck in Fates. Both are too unreliable and weak to justify the high price tag, and in the case of braves, that's on top of the defense drops (melee weapons) or halved strength/magic (ranged weapons).

Killer weapons being unreliable I get, what with the random proc effect, but why does that apply to braves?

Edited January 3, 2022 by Alastor15243

[Dark Holy Elf]

44 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Killer weapons being unreliable I get, what with the random proc effect, but why does that apply to braves?

Braves are a bit on the inaccurate side (10 less than steel in each case). That said, since they're A rank, you tend to have decent accuracy with them by the time you get them, especially if you use them against weapon triangle advantage, and anyway -10 hit feels like a small price to pay for hitting twice. If you're in attack stance, you get a big accuracy boost, and if you're not, you're probably paired up and benefitting from the doubled shield gauge growth; either is good. I think Fates' Brave weapons are good once you get them, but A ranks generally come quite late in that game if at all.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Killer weapons being unreliable I get, what with the random proc effect, but why does that apply to braves?

They're too inaccurate for that stage in the game. The way I see it, 8000 gold for what is essentially an unforged iron with significantly lower accuracy screams "rip-off". And this is on top of the other negative effects they have.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

They're too inaccurate for that stage in the game. The way I see it, 8000 gold for what is essentially an unforged iron with significantly lower accuracy screams "rip-off". And this is on top of the other negative effects they have.

Damn, they do sound bad. Alas, if only Brave Weapons had some other effect that made them useful. Some effect that let them do far more damage than other weapons of comparable Might, in a reliable manner. What a shame that no such effect exists.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Typo.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Damn, they do sound bad. Alas, if only Brave Weapons had some other effect that made them useful. Some effect that let them do far more damage than other weapons of comparable Might, in a reliable manner. What a shame that no such effect exists.

Not sure if serious. Either way, 8000 gold isn't peanuts, and if I'm going to pay that much for something, it DAMN WELL BETTER BE WORTH IT! And far as I'm concerned, two consecutive attacks once a turn don't justify either the price tag, putting up with the shaky accuracy, or their negative effects.

[SnowFire]

5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Not sure if serious. Either way, 8000 gold isn't peanuts, and if I'm going to pay that much for something, it DAMN WELL BETTER BE WORTH IT! And far as I'm concerned, two consecutive attacks once a turn don't justify either the price tag, putting up with the shaky accuracy, or their negative effects.

 

[Jotari]

13 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

 

Careful reminding Mir Mozu exists, as that's likely to trigger him in an unrelated way.

As far as the conversation about Brave Weapons go, yeah, they're not as great in Fates...but that's kind of a good thing. Because they're just plain OP in most games they're in. Fates handles Brave Weapons rather well by giving them the weaknesses they have. And they absolutely need weaknesses, because the thing that usually limits OP brave weapons, durability, is completely absent in Fates. So if they did straight up work like a half way point between steel and silver that could attack twice per hit and never ran out, why would you ever choose any other weapon?

Edited January 3, 2022 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

14 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

 

Nice cherrypicking there, buddy. You probably had her kitted out with 3 level 15 skills there, too. Anyways, all this screams "NOT WORTH IT" in bright neon letters.

[DoomRPG]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Nice cherrypicking there, buddy. You probably had her kitted out with 3 level 15 skills there, too. Anyways, all this screams "NOT WORTH IT" in bright neon letters.

If that was Awakening Donnel I'd absolutely agree with you. But as is. Idk. My blind lunatic playthrough that died on ch.13 was able to make Mozu an A-lister with barely any effort. Just make her an archer. Its not that hard.

Here's my unpopular opinion. Mozu is actually pretty good. Easily the best Trainee in the series so far. (Unless you want to count 3H students as trainees which. Ehhhhhhh. Okay fine I guess they are better than Mozu on average.)

[Shadow Mir]

31 minutes ago, DoomRPG said:

If that was Awakening Donnel I'd absolutely agree with you. But as is. Idk. My blind lunatic playthrough that died on ch.13 was able to make Mozu an A-lister with barely any effort. Just make her an archer. Its not that hard.

Here's my unpopular opinion. Mozu is actually pretty good. Easily the best Trainee in the series so far. (Unless you want to count 3H students as trainees which. Ehhhhhhh. Okay fine I guess they are better than Mozu on average.)

I'd still say she's much closer to Donnel than the likes of the Ram villagers.

Disagree; the Heart Seal that the needs to become an archer can be put to better use by, among others, the first servant. It doesn't help her case that in two routes, she has to compete with Takumi.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Nice cherrypicking there, buddy. You probably had her kitted out with 3 level 15 skills there, too. Anyways, all this screams "NOT WORTH IT" in bright neon letters.

Mir's definition of "NOT WORTH IT": something which reliably one-rounds the boss of a map often considered difficult, particularly on Lunatic.

The only skill she needs to permanently table your concern-trolling about accuracy is a Level 5 one, anyway. (Certain Blow)

[Shadow Mir]

2 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Mir's definition of "NOT WORTH IT": something which needs a shitload of effort and valuable resources just to be passable.

Fixed that for ya. Because that describes Mozu to a T.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Mir's definition of "NOT WORTH IT": something which reliably one-rounds the boss of a map often considered difficult, particularly on Lunatic.

The only skill she needs to permanently table your concern-trolling about accuracy is a Level 5 one, anyway. (Certain Blow)

Don't forget the adage of "has never actually tried [thing] currently complaining about."

[DoomRPG]

11 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd still say she's much closer to Donnel than the likes of the Ram villagers.

Disagree; the Heart Seal that the needs to become an archer can be put to better use by, among others, the first servant. It doesn't help her case that in two routes, she has to compete with Takumi.

I don't know much about heart seal Felicia since it doesn't come up often in my reading. That or I just missed it, but I do know that Jacob is overvalued.
This isn't awakening.
Silas with VoF+Corrin support reaches every threshold just fine. Wyvern Elise helps too.

Villager is omega bad as a class. Mozu is fine once she's out of it. Even if you insist on not doing her re-class right away. All she needs is a forged bronze bow to ohko (or very nearly) pegasi units. Several a turn with either Azura support or attack stance.

I haven't played Echoes at all so I can't compare with the Ram villagers admittedly. Nor have I watched it enough to form an opinion in general.
But I'd say Donnel is well below Mozu. She's at her worst, closer to Ross.
(As for Takumi competition. Yeah fair enough but he has a pretty massive unfair advantage for any other competing archer. Beruka isn't bad just cuz Cam exists.)

[Shadow Mir]

55 minutes ago, DoomRPG said:

I don't know much about heart seal Felicia since it doesn't come up often in my reading. That or I just missed it, but I do know that Jacob is overvalued.
This isn't awakening.
Silas with VoF+Corrin support reaches every threshold just fine. Wyvern Elise helps too.

What does Awakening have to do with this? Anyway, the thing is that Felicia and Jakob can get level 15 skills long before anyone else, and can pass those down to children (personally, I prefer the air of Inspiration). And tbf, I think Wyvern Elise and Vow of Friendship are overrated. 

1 hour ago, DoomRPG said:

Villager is omega bad as a class. Mozu is fine once she's out of it. Even if you insist on not doing her re-class right away. All she needs is a forged bronze bow to ohko (or very nearly) pegasi units. Several a turn with either Azura support or attack stance.

Villager sucks, yes, but needing a heart seal that others could have put to better use says nothing good of Mozu at all.

1 hour ago, DoomRPG said:

But I'd say Donnel is well below Mozu. She's at her worst, closer to Ross.

Saying Mozu is closer to Ross doesn't make her sound worth it, to be blunt. I find Ross is rather bad (and overrated) too.