What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Strullemia]

8 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I agree with you. A similar case happens in Naruto. What do you think of this video? 

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Jiraiya ends up dying but through sheer willpower he comes back to life temporarily. While randomly coming back to life doesn't make logical sense, it works in arousing one's emotions, showing his badassery and will of fire, which is a theme of Naruto. So what is generally considered bad writing actually ends up being good writing IMO. 

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His ideals and worldview are challenged a lot more than Edelgard in CF though. Now that I think about it, Edelgard is a bit overrated as a protagonist since everyone follows her orders without question. Compare that to Dimitri and Micaiah, the two other morally grey lords who encountered far more internal opposition. We don't even see the pros and cons of Edelgard's ideals in depth either. I still think she's the best written character in the series though due to being the best villain and one of the best protagonists. But her arc revolves too much around Byleth to be considered to have an excellent character arc compared to the aforementioned examples. 

 

Spoiler

Same in BL, everyone follows Dimitri without question.  Someone found out that in hidden files this wasn't the case at some point in development but in the end they still chose to have all the BL follow a guy who acts insane. Which shows the difference between the way they handled Micaiah and Dimitri. In FE10 units like Jill and Zihark can end up leaving Daen's army. They should have done something similar in the BL route with Felix/Anette like they originally planned to do. 

Eh, Edelgard has more depth than him and is a far subtler example of someone with mental issues than Dimitri and since Dimitri's arc relies heavily on his mental issues I think that his arc works against him. 

Every lord needs Byleth for their arc and in Dimitri's case he ends up dying sooner than Claude or Edelgard if he doesn't have Byleth on their side. So he's just as reliant on Byleth as the other two lords are.

 

[SubwayBossEmmett]

1 minute ago, NekoKnight said:

My opinion concerning the lords, having played through Crimson Flower and Azure Moon (stop reading here if you've not played those)

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is that they work a lot better on paper than they do in the story execution. I like Edelgard for being determined to change the world by any means necessary but her methods are not well justified by the story. Edelgard does a lot of shady stuff while acting as the Flame Emperor and when she makes her move on the church, virtually no one in the cast has good cause to join her. She looks like a villain for all concerned and her best argument is "Rhea is evil because she's a dragon."

As you mentioned, she doesn't have much of a character arc and while I think it's meaningful that she seeks out Byleth because she feels like she's not strong enough to make the future she wants on her own, Byleth doesn't really do much to earn it and neither really develop as people.

 

I agree on her generally being someone who works better in-concept than in practice overall. Honestly I feel this way for most of 3H overall sadly, and what I care about in stuff is execution primarily.

[Arachnofiend]

1 minute ago, NekoKnight said:

My opinion concerning the lords, having played through Crimson Flower and Azure Moon (stop reading here if you've not played those)

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is that they work a lot better on paper than they do in the story execution. I like Edelgard for being determined to change the world by any means necessary but her methods are not well justified by the story. Edelgard does a lot of shady stuff while acting as the Flame Emperor and when she makes her move on the church, virtually no one in the cast has good cause to join her. She looks like a villain for all concerned and her best argument is "Rhea is evil because she's a dragon."

As you mentioned, she doesn't have much of a character arc and while I think it's meaningful that she seeks out Byleth because she feels like she's not strong enough to make the future she wants on her own, Byleth doesn't really do much to earn it and neither really develop as people.

  

Spoiler

Her best argument is "Rhea is an immortal monster that has been manipulating Fodlan's history to ensure humanity is oppressed and that crests continue to dictate the way society is run". Which is an argument that appeal to a lot of characters, there are honestly more characters in the cast who agree with the idea that "the crests are to blame" than not. Lysithea sticks out as someone that it's honestly odd that she doesn't defect when she reads Edelgard's manifesto - the two have nearly identical visions for the future, it's just Edelgard is better poised to implement it.

 

[Jotari]

56 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

 That is a contrived scenario, no matter how you slice it but I don’t take issue with it simply because it helps to perpetuate and emphasize the themes of the game, the idea of overcoming failure through the connections you’ve forged. The contrivance itself does not take away from the thematic idea but in fact enhances it. Cliche? Maybe but that’s cause it works. The characters are able to win due to learning and applying the overall message of the story which is fine. There’s depth and nuance to the contrivance creates the emotional impact that the narrative is trying to invoke. That is what I mean when I say contrivance doesn’t really overall matter. So long as the idea and characters are interesting enough to supplement my suspension of disbelief I might just be able to buy into anything.

You're going to have to justify why you see that as contrived, because it doesn't seem contrived in the slightest to me. Cliché, definitely, disinteresting, wel yeah I useually skip it, but contrived, no. Nothing contrived about it. The enemy makes an attack and the hero defends themself. That Grima can make an attack in such a manner and Robin's defense manifests in that way, maybe, a very weak maybe, you can call that contrived, but the manner of it doesn't actually cause the plot to swerve. If fits in neatly with where the plot is at that point. If anything it's negligible as it plays no real part in the following battle. I don't think it's possible for a plot point to even be contrived and negligible at the same time. That's just a really weird aside.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Jotari

[SubwayBossEmmett]

1 minute ago, Arachnofiend said:

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Her best argument is "Rhea is an immortal monster that has been manipulating Fodlan's history to ensure humanity is oppressed and that crests continue to dictate the way society is run". Which is an argument that appeal to a lot of characters, there are honestly more characters in the cast who agree with the idea that "the crests are to blame" than not. Lysithea sticks out as someone that it's honestly odd that she doesn't defect when she reads Edelgard's manifesto - the two have nearly identical visions for the future, it's just Edelgard is better poised to implement it.

 

Spoiler

Like we the audience knows about Rhea, but....

How does Edelgard convince literally anyone else that doesn't know about TWSITD, she literally is just telling people to revolt against the church without proof.

 

[NekoKnight]

Just now, Arachnofiend said:

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Her best argument is "Rhea is an immortal monster that has been manipulating Fodlan's history to ensure humanity is oppressed and that crests continue to dictate the way society is run". Which is an argument that appeal to a lot of characters, there are honestly more characters in the cast who agree with the idea that "the crests are to blame" than not. Lysithea sticks out as someone that it's honestly odd that she doesn't defect when she reads Edelgard's manifesto - the two have nearly identical visions for the future, it's just Edelgard is better poised to implement it.

 

Spoiler

It would have been great if she provided proof for that claim. None of this is known in CF.

 

[Arachnofiend]

1 minute ago, SubwayBossEmmett said:

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Like we the audience knows about Rhea, but....

How does Edelgard convince literally anyone else that doesn't know about TWSITD, she literally is just telling people to revolt against the church without proof.

  

Spoiler

Rhea being a dragon proves she's an immortal being that's ran the church herself through its entire existence. The rest of the stuff is well within the range of things the other characters already know; they've seen the way Rhea treats dissidents, and they know the miserable effects of crests on society whether you have one or not. This isn't going to convince everyone, no, but it's likely to convince those most disgusted with the current system.

 

[Strullemia]

7 minutes ago, SubwayBossEmmett said:

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Like we the audience knows about Rhea, but....

How does Edelgard convince literally anyone else that doesn't know about TWSITD, she literally is just telling people to revolt against the church without proof.

 

Spoiler

She sent her manifesto to every lord in Fodlan.

 

[SubwayBossEmmett]

5 minutes ago, Hekselka said:

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She sent her manifesto to every lord in Fodlan.

 

Spoiler

If the governor of a state wrote the the leader of a country was actually a really old wizard who has been corrupting the world since forever, would I believe them? Like even if it was true, those words mean nothing without tangible proof in a world where Wizards are just ancient myths

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by SubwayBossEmmett
kinda spoiler?

[NekoKnight]

Just now, Arachnofiend said:

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Rhea being a dragon proves she's an immortal being that's ran the church herself through its entire existence. The rest of the stuff is well within the range of things the other characters already know; they've seen the way Rhea treats dissidents, and they know the miserable effects of crests on society whether you have one or not. This isn't going to convince everyone, no, but it's likely to convince those most disgusted with the current system.

 

Spoiler

Rhea being a dragon is irrelevant to her morality. Her being immortal is irrelevant. Her relationship with crests and her sinister intentions are impossible to prove and are unstated. They have seen how she treats dissidents but said dissidents are never shown to have a valid reason for wanting to kill Rhea. There is no proof of oppressing humanity or warping history for her benefit.

Rhea's crimes, as far as they are examined or proven in CF, are being an authority figure and killing people who try to kill her.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Spoiler

I guess if you throw out all of Edelgard's evidence then sure, she doesn't have any evidence.

 

[SubwayBossEmmett]

1 minute ago, Arachnofiend said:

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I guess if you throw out all of Edelgard's evidence then sure, she doesn't have any evidence. 

 

What evidence? Word of mouth isn't evidence

[NekoKnight]

Just now, Arachnofiend said:

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I guess if you throw out all of Edelgard's evidence then sure, she doesn't have any evidence.

 

Spoiler

What is her evidence? When does she show this evidence?

 

[Ottservia]

35 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You're going to have to justify why you see that as contrived, because it doesn't seem contrived in the slightest to me. Cliché, definitely, disinteresting, wel yeah I useually skip it, but contrived, no. Nothing contrived about it. The enemy makes an attack and the hero defends themself. That Grima can make an attack in such a manner and Robin's defense manifests in that way, maybe, a very weak maybe, you can call that contrived, but the manner of it doesn't actually cause the plot to swerve. If fits in neatly with where the plot is at that point. If anything it's negligible as it plays no real part in the following battle. I don't think it's possible for a plot point to even be contrived and negligible at the same time. That's just a really weird aside.

Perhaps that was a bad example and thinking this whole debate over now I think I’m finally starting  to understand what you’re trying to say here(you can thank @vanguard333 for that because of the code geass example) and to an extent I agree but I don’t think it applies to fates in the way you’re saying it does. I’m not saying it doesn’t cause it does I just think you could’ve argued the point better.

Cause from my understanding, you’re saying the story flows in way that lacks nuance and that they should’ve thought of a more cohesive, nuanced, and character driven way for the story to progress in the way they wanted which to an extent I agree. They could’ve come up with a better way for Corrin and Azura to discover that truth and have it be more in line with the themes of the story and their characters. Cause yeah I can agree that Azura going into the lake for no other reason than to foreshadow valla is a very shallow and forced way to have handled that. They could’ve thought of a more nuanced and natural way for that to happen. The same goes for the Vallite curse. They could’ve come up with a more organic reason to really tie these plot points together. I still don’t find the the plan to get Garon to sit on the hoshidian throne to be contrived though. It’s how the narrative kinda forced it into that being the only option is the problem not the fact that they go through with the plan at all. Cause I like that plan from a thematic angle. However, I do agree that the writers could’ve come up with a more nuanced explanation as to why that plan had to be put into action.

[Jotari]

44 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Perhaps that was a bad example and thinking this whole debate over now I think I’m finally starting  to understand what you’re trying to say here(you can thank @vanguard333 for that because of the code geass example) and to an extent I agree but I don’t think it applies to fates in the way you’re saying it does. I’m not saying it doesn’t cause it does I just think you could’ve argued the point better.

Cause from my understanding, you’re saying the story flows in way that lacks nuance and that they should’ve thought of a more cohesive, nuanced, and character driven way for the story to progress in the way they wanted which to an extent I agree. They could’ve come up with a better way for Corrin and Azura to discover that truth and have it be more in line with the themes of the story and their characters. Cause yeah I can agree that Azura going into the lake for no other reason than to foreshadow valla is a very shallow and forced way to have handled that. They could’ve thought of a more nuanced and natural way for that to happen. The same goes for the Vallite curse. They could’ve come up with a more organic reason to really tie these plot points together. I still don’t find the the plan to get Garon to sit on the hoshidian throne to be contrived though. It’s how the narrative kinda forced it into that being the only option is the problem not the fact that they go through with the plan at all. Cause I like that plan from a thematic angle. However, I do agree that the writers could’ve come up with a more nuanced explanation as to why that plan had to be put into action.

Yes, you finally get it. We just needed to give you an example you could empathize with (I too thought that moment was a massive blemish on Code Geas). And I never intended to suggest the plan was bad it's the fact the Hoshidon Throne happens to have this unique magical property that exists only for this singular reason. None of the plot points as concepts are inherently contrived, that's why I think the made up examples Vanguard was trying to use didn't quite work. It's the execution that matters. If we're given more info on the material the Hoshidon Throne is made of, history on how it's been used and why they have it that way, if it comes up in other parts of the work where characters suggest using it for other purposes, if it even got more visual focus in the intro, then it would feel less contrived as it'd seem like an actual element of the world, rather than being something that was shoved in for this singular reason, even though it's existence is still primarily doing the same thing.

[Interdimensional Observer]

42 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If we're given more info on the material the Hoshidon Throne is made of, history on how it's been used and why they have it that way, if it comes up in other parts of the work where characters suggest using it for other purposes,

Hoshido and Nohr are built over two separate giant networks of Dragon Veins that channel the magical energies of the world throughout it. These networks have each have a central point, a terminus- the Dawn Vein and the Dusk Vein respectively.

Where are these great Dragon Veins? Well, long ago, humanity identified them and built shrines over them. People gathered to the shrines for their blessings. People of ambition and armies sought the power and authority the shrines could bestow, they conquered the shrines. Thus, the capitals of Hoshido and Nohr were established. The shrines were bulldozed and castles were built in their exact places. And by order of Their Majesties, the singular terminal access points of the entire Dragon Vein networks, from which one could play god with the entirety of their realm, were each rerouted to be directly beneath the throne.

Thus, the reveal of Metal King Slime comes from using the full power of the Dawn Vein. -But it creates a small point that then has to be explained as to why Cori couldn't just pop the Dusk Vein on Father Flan. And another point needing explanation of how RinRin would command the Dawn Vein to work its magic. Although for the former point, I could write in that Pale Pudding Potentate was being a knockoff of the Nohr King, the undisputed "master" of the Dusk Vein, trying to fight him with it would be a losing proposition. On the other hand, he could have no ability with the Dawn Vein, so a naturally-talented 'Ori and 'Ura could overwhelm Evil Eton Mess with the Dawn Vein. 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Hoshido and Nohr are built over two separate giant networks of Dragon Veins that channel the magical energies of the world throughout it. These networks have each have a central point, a terminus- the Dawn Vein and the Dusk Vein respectively.

Where are these great Dragon Veins? Well, long ago, humanity identified them and built shrines over them. People gathered to the shrines for their blessings. People of ambition and armies sought the power and authority the shrines could bestow, they conquered the shrines. Thus, the capitals of Hoshido and Nohr were established. The shrines were bulldozed and castles were built in their exact places. And by order of Their Majesties, the singular terminal access points of the entire Dragon Vein networks, from which one could play god with the entirety of their realm, were each rerouted to be directly beneath the throne.

Thus, the reveal of Metal King Slime comes from using the full power of the Dawn Vein. -But it creates a small point that then has to be explained as to why Cori couldn't just pop the Dusk Vein on Father Flan. And another point needing explanation of how RinRin would command the Dawn Vein to work its magic. Although for the former point, I could write in that Pale Pudding Potentate was being a knockoff of the Nohr King, the undisputed "master of the Dusk Vein, trying to fight him with it would be a losing proposition. On the other hand, he could have no ability with the Dawn Vein, so a naturally-talented 'Ori and 'Ura could overwhelm Evil Eton Mess with the Dawn Vein. 

Seems it's automatic though. No one with Dragon blood uses a dragon vein to unmask Garon. He's sitting there all slimey when they go in. Unless he unmasked himself.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Just now, Jotari said:

Seems it's automatic though. No one with Dragon blood uses a dragon vein to unmask Garon. He's sitting there all slimey when they go in. Unless he unmasked himself.

I changed that up then, might have gone too far then. I was just roughly borrowing from the fanfic rewrite I did once.

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Yes, you finally get it. We just needed to give you an example you could empathize with (I too thought that moment was a massive blemish on Code Geas). And I never intended to suggest the plan was bad it's the fact the Hoshidon Throne happens to have this unique magical property that exists only for this singular reason. None of the plot points as concepts are inherently contrived, that's why I think the made up examples Vanguard was trying to use didn't quite work. It's the execution that matters. If we're given more info on the material the Hoshidon Throne is made of, history on how it's been used and why they have it that way, if it comes up in other parts of the work where characters suggest using it for other purposes, if it even got more visual focus in the intro, then it would feel less contrived as it'd seem like an actual element of the world, rather than being something that was shoved in for this singular reason, even though it's existence is still primarily doing the same thing.

Really my main issue with the argument is that people kept framing it in a way that that felt like saying something was bad because the story took a direction they personally did not like which I cannot agree with because a story shouldn’t be judged based on how others wanted it to be cause it’s not their story to write it’s the author’s and an author can write the their story however they want cause it’s their story. Like you said it’s execution that matters most.

However, I can agree with an argument that says a plot point is lacking in nuance cause that’s actual legitimate criticism cause that is something that can be proven unlike suspension of disbelief which cannot. I don’t like it when people say my suspension of disbelief should be broken cause you can’t dictate my personal tastes. Maybe it was me misinterpreting things but that’s what this debate felt like to me.

[Eltosian Kadath]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

If we're given more info on the material the Hoshidon Throne is made of, history on how it's been used and why they have it that way, if it comes up in other parts of the work where characters suggest using it for other purposes, if it even got more visual focus in the intro, then it would feel less contrived as it'd seem like an actual element of the world, rather than being something that was shoved in for this singular reason, even though it's existence is still primarily doing the same thing.

We know a little of the throne's history, in that it was a gift from the Kingdom of Valla to the Kingdom of Hoshido

I would speculate that Anankos used some secret art of crafting magical items, like those the Rainbow Sage used to create the legendary weapons, to create it and its special qualities, but that isn't explicit.We also see Mikoto suggest using it to cure the memory of Corrin, which is presumably what gave him the idea, and her being a secret Vallanite princess may be why she knows its power, while other might not know enough about it to use it.

[NekoKnight]

28 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

We know a little of the throne's history, in that it was a gift from the Kingdom of Valla to the Kingdom of Hoshido

I would speculate that Anankos used some secret art of crafting magical items, like those the Rainbow Sage used to create the legendary weapons, to create it and its special qualities, but that isn't explicit.We also see Mikoto suggest using it to cure the memory of Corrin, which is presumably what gave him the idea, and her being a secret Vallanite princess may be why she knows its power, while other might not know enough about it to use it.

Still seems pretty contrived to me. Despite it being a gift from Valla, no one in Hoshido is aware that Valla exists which (apart from not making any sense) kind of eliminates the gift giving as important for anything other than it being used as a plot device for the story. A throne with the power to apparently restore memories and reveal slime monsters is awfully specific for the problem they have in Conquest. Is that a utility this Vallite king thought would be useful?

[Jotari]

55 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

We know a little of the throne's history, in that it was a gift from the Kingdom of Valla to the Kingdom of Hoshido

I would speculate that Anankos used some secret art of crafting magical items, like those the Rainbow Sage used to create the legendary weapons, to create it and its special qualities, but that isn't explicit.We also see Mikoto suggest using it to cure the memory of Corrin, which is presumably what gave him the idea, and her being a secret Vallanite princess may be why she knows its power, while other might not know enough about it to use it.

Those elements are helpful, but the very fact that I have no memory of them shows how weakly they were expressed.

[Eltosian Kadath]

11 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Despite it being a gift from Valla, no one in Hoshido is aware that Valla exists which (apart from not making any sense) kind of eliminates the gift giving as important for anything other than it being used as a plot device for the story.

Yeah the nonsensical curse, and it being the reason people don't mention Valla, is by far the most contrived and worst part of Fates plot.

11 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

A throne with the power to apparently restore memories and reveal slime monsters is awfully specific for the problem they have in Conquest. Is that a utility this Vallite king thought would be useful?

I have the vague memory of them saying it returns people to their true body and mind, which are related and useful abilities that have been creatively applied to accomplish those two specific tasks.

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Those elements are helpful, but the very fact that I have no memory of them shows how weakly they were expressed.

Yeah they talk about the origin of the throne after Revelation's story has plummeted into nonsense, and the fixing of Corrin's memories is the prologue that you can skip with the path of Fate so I am not surprised. Saving secrets for Revelations did the Fate's plot no favors.

[NekoKnight]

Just now, Eltosian Kadath said:

I have the vague memory of them saying it returns people to their true body and mind, which are related and useful abilities that have been creatively applied to accomplish those two specific tasks.

Maybe. I'm just trying to think of what would be the specific intention for such a power.  "Return people to their true body" Would that be a something that fixes wounds and cures illnesses? "True mind" Is that the ability to restore sanity...cure Alzheimer's... dispel magic curses...? Situational and useful things but they really need to elaborate on the history of the chair and the specific utility/reason why it was given if they want to make it feel like a significant part of the narrative.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Maybe. I'm just trying to think of what would be the specific intention for such a power.  "Return people to their true body" Would that be a something that fixes wounds and cures illnesses? "True mind" Is that the ability to restore sanity...cure Alzheimer's... dispel magic curses...? Situational and useful things but they really need to elaborate on the history of the chair and the specific utility/reason why it was given if they want to make it feel like a significant part of the narrative.

Sounds like Anankos could do with sitting in that chair himself. Maybe not having it is why he went crazy in the first place.