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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

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44 minutes ago, Harvey said:

There have always been cases where characters talk or marry one another even in the earlier games.

Until Awakening, only FE4 had that as a part of the actual gameplay, as all the other games had certain couples marry after the game had finished. The re-introduction of marriage as part of the gameplay is why the recent titles have been dubbed "waifu dating simulators".

48 minutes ago, Harvey said:

and argue that for any game that does not have it, is gonna bomb.

Put it this way: Shadows of Valentia didn't have the "waifu dating elements" that the two previous titles (Awakening and Fates) did, and comparatively didn't do all that well sales wise. So there is some justification there.

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1 hour ago, Harvey said:

I'm personally sick of those who attack FE as a waifu dating game at all and argue that for any game that does not have it, is gonna bomb.

First of all, Fire Emblem is a Simulation RPG which has elements of simulation between characters. There have always been cases where characters talk or marry one another even in the earlier games. Its not even remotely possible for all units to marry one another as only specific ones can.

Its sickening because they fail to realise the whole point of Fire Emblem which is to keep units alive or train them to be better. Its really scary if the next fire emblem game fails because it had no "waifu" to begin with and fail to realise that it was not that but more than that.

 

Here’s my thing about the whole “waifu emblem” criticism people like to throw around. They frame as if it’s a bad thing when it’s not. Like yeah wanna know about 50% of the reason I play these games? It’s for the cute anime girls(and boys I don’t discriminate) and I don’t see what’s so wrong about wanting to marry my waifu or husbando so long as it isn’t intrusive anyway. I mean I like cute anime girls I don’t see what’s so wrong about that.

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1 hour ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Until Awakening, only FE4 had that as a part of the actual gameplay, as all the other games had certain couples marry after the game had finished. The re-introduction of marriage as part of the gameplay is why the recent titles have been dubbed "waifu dating simulators".

Put it this way: Shadows of Valentia didn't have the "waifu dating elements" that the two previous titles (Awakening and Fates) did, and comparatively didn't do all that well sales wise. So there is some justification there.

Shadows of Valentia was also a remake and the third game released on the console that was six years old already. I think it's sales are basically to be expected and the lack of waifu plays a small role, if any, in that. And Shadows of Valentia did do pretty well, maybe not as well as Fates, but it far from underperformed.

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1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Here’s my thing about the whole “waifu emblem” criticism people like to throw around. They frame as if it’s a bad thing when it’s not. Like yeah wanna know about 50% of the reason I play these games? It’s for the cute anime girls(and boys I don’t discriminate) and I don’t see what’s so wrong about wanting to marry my waifu or husbando so long as it isn’t intrusive anyway. I mean I like cute anime girls I don’t see what’s so wrong about that.

Although I'm sure you've heard it a billion times before, it's a matter of "where has the game put its priorities?". Good gameplay, plot, world, and characters, or has it all been wasted on harems and titillation? Although Fates in general consensus has both good gameplay and harem, so it's not impossible to have both the bad harem and the good things.

 

I'll add that while the term is fairly recent, objectifying FE characters b/c personal fantasies likely isn't new, if not so pronounced due to the absence of an avatar character. I'm sure Mia and Nephenee were appearing in peoples' wet dreams a half-decade before Awakening.

Likewise, having problematic fantasies about fictional people isn't new. Wholesome old World War II, where men painted naked ladies onto the sides of their fighter planes and bombers. Some of them might have been fantasizing about real women in the form of actresses, but how different is it from pixels when said ordinary men had realistically a slim-to-none chance of banging the actresses?

And, there is there is the ancient Roman tale of Pygmalion and Galatea, a man who had no interest in real women, but became attracted to a female statue he had sculpted, to the point Venus made it real. Sure is it only a fictional story, but I would think this might indicate that even back then, men were fantasizing about women who don't actually exist. And was Zeus, the father of so many in Greek mythos, a projection of all the sex with hot ladies the ancient bards wished to have? Wikipedia lists at least 93 women he had sex with (including Nemesis and Lysithea😏).

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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1 hour ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Until Awakening, only FE4 had that as a part of the actual gameplay, as all the other games had certain couples marry after the game had finished. The re-introduction of marriage as part of the gameplay is why the recent titles have been dubbed "waifu dating simulators".

Whether couples marry at the end or whether the supports allow you to do so does not matter because its the same thing. For earlier games, if you want them to get married, you'd keep them alive and really, keeping them all alive is part of the idea of Fire Emblem.

1 hour ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Put it this way: Shadows of Valentia didn't have the "waifu dating elements" that the two previous titles (Awakening and Fates) did, and comparatively didn't do all that well sales wise. So there is some justification there.

Can't agree with this because Shadows of Valentia was released in a time where the Switch was ahead and that many wanted it to be ported on Switch for those extra sales.

Cannot see how lack of waifus would make this game bomb.

 

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1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Whether couples marry at the end or whether the supports allow you to do so does not matter because its the same thing. For earlier games, if you want them to get married, you'd keep them alive and really, keeping them all alive is part of the idea of Fire Emblem.

Can't agree with this because Shadows of Valentia was released in a time where the Switch was ahead and that many wanted it to be ported on Switch for those extra sales.

Cannot see how lack of waifus would make this game bomb.

 

Not to mention that it was a remake of a game that didn't have the best reputation to begin with. The original Gaiden is probably considered one of the most unplayable games from the Famicom library. Add in that reputation with the declining 3DS and the result was pretty much expected.

As for my take on the above argument, I'd say one of the above posters had it right that it basically comes down to judging what the developers are prioritizing. To put it one way, do Sacred Stones and Path of Radiance have cute anime girls? Yes they absolutely do, but the idea of "dating them" in such a personal matter wasn't a factor. They were basically characters first if anything else.

Awakening and Fates dialed up the idea of "dating" characters with more explicit character tropes, romance scenes, and a whole bunch of other stuff. It gives off the impression that they focused more on these "intimate" elements as opposed to the actual meat of these games which are the strategic battles. That's pretty much how this whole thing got a bad rep in the first place, as many people got the idea that Intelligent Systems was intentionally simplifying the series to pander to certain fetishes. I imagine that's not the nicest way to phrase it, but I would say that's why so many people came to detest these games for it.

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11 hours ago, Sentinel07 said:

Awakening and Fates dialed up the idea of "dating" characters with more explicit character tropes, romance scenes, and a whole bunch of other stuff. It gives off the impression that they focused more on these "intimate" elements as opposed to the actual meat of these games which are the strategic battles. That's pretty much how this whole thing got a bad rep in the first place, as many people got the idea that Intelligent Systems was intentionally simplifying the series to pander to certain fetishes. I imagine that's not the nicest way to phrase it, but I would say that's why so many people came to detest these games for it.

For Awakening, I can understand why they would have done the marriage thing as they would want to add everything in the game considering that it was to be the last in the series. But I can't understand why that was added in Fates for some reason.

Unless you play conquest, there is no reason for the marriage and kids to exist since all it does is just give you units that are just on par with your main units and adds little insentive. And yet despite that, Conquest has the best gameplay since Thracia imo which means that Intelligent Systems are more than capable of making great map designs but decided to go into the birthright route for the future series due to birthright selling well and that one had bland maps imo.

 

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2 hours ago, Harvey said:

But I can't understand why that was added in Fates for some reason.

People liked it in Awakening, so why wouldn't they bring it back in the next game?

15 hours ago, Harvey said:

Whether couples marry at the end or whether the supports allow you to do so does not matter because its the same thing.

It's not the same thing. Pairing up Kent with Lyn has no bearing on what happens in FE7 at all. Pairing two characters in Awakening, gets you a new chapter to play, and a new character to customise, and as one of those characters is a self-insert for the player, its obvious that the whole "waifu dating sim" thing is going to rear it's head.

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3 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

People liked it in Awakening, so why wouldn't they bring it back in the next game?

Because again, it made no sense whatsoever and really it doesn't do much and that's wh 3H did not have it.

3 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

It's not the same thing. Pairing up Kent with Lyn has no bearing on what happens in FE7 at all. Pairing two characters in Awakening, gets you a new chapter to play, and a new character to customise, and as one of those characters is a self-insert for the player, its obvious that the whole "waifu dating sim" thing is going to rear it's head.

The context of two characters getting married is the same nonetheless as the endings show them as paired. Older games have units marry and so do the later games when paired up. The only difference is you get a kid in Awakening and Holy war.

 

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On 11/2/2019 at 4:15 AM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Although I'm sure you've heard it a billion times before, it's a matter of "where has the game put its priorities?". Good gameplay, plot, world, and characters, or has it all been wasted on harems and titillation?

Having the right priorities are indeed the most important thing when including ''harem features'' into the plot. 

People finding tomboy Hinoka or prettyboy Takumi attracted is all fine and dandy but them being Corrin's siblings makes Corrin not being able to romance them the logical outcome. The premise of Fates is choosing between your adopted family and your blood family. The Hoshidans are your blood family and thus have no place getting into Corrin's pants. That's how it should have always been, but the Hoshidans suddenly not being Corrin's siblings after all is a very unwelcome reminder that the Fates team didn't think the story was very important. There was a choice between sticking to Fates premise or twisting it to ensure everyone got could be romanced. 

I don't mind Fates having an increased amount of ''harem'' but Fates strangling its entire premise just to include everyone into the harem is a clear case of extremely wrong priorities. And for me this does make it harder to give Fates a pass when it screws up. With Three Houses and Echoes I believe everyone involved had the best of intentions and that the flaws of those games are a result of mistakes or time and budget eventually running out. But if Fates dismantles its premise just so a shy little sister and a manly Samurai can get into Corrin's pants I start to wonder how much of Fates bad writing is a result of mistakes and how much was the result the team happily ignoring the story just to put more waifu stuff in. With other games I think its flaws are born from mistakes, with Fates I believe the flaws are the result of very deliberate decisions that stem from very wrong priorities. 

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On 11/2/2019 at 10:18 PM, Harvey said:

Because again, it made no sense whatsoever

Awakening sold well, IS thought it was due to the "waifu dating sim" elements, so they included them in the following title. There you go, there's some sense for you.

On 11/2/2019 at 10:18 PM, Harvey said:

and that's wh 3H did not have it

I know this isn't Wikipedia, but [citation needed]

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54 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

I know this isn't Wikipedia, but [citation needed]

Their claim is that a second gen doesn't fit TH's story so it wasn't included, which I think is a fair guess.

EDIT: Maybe they're just talking about the gameplay element, in which case, ignore this.

Edited by NekoKnight

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On 11/3/2019 at 8:13 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

Having the right priorities are indeed the most important thing when including ''harem features'' into the plot.

[...] if Fates dismantles its premise just so a shy little sister and a manly Samurai can get into Corrin's pants I start to wonder how much of Fates bad writing is a result of mistakes and how much was the result the team happily ignoring the story just to put more waifu stuff in. With other games I think its flaws are born from mistakes, with Fates I believe the flaws are the result of very deliberate decisions that stem from very wrong priorities.

Priorities. Clever argument, mate. Another view into that mess that is Fates.

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I think an FE 4 remake could stomach gameplay changes as far as "pursuit being universally available" - I see the constant defense of the original game's balance on this and other things - but FE4 Is actually pretty easy - I think the reaction to Three Houses - Normal/Hard - showing that the Fandom actually can pick up on games being a too easy nowadays - An faithful remake of FE4's design   whatever people's feelings on it being boring and/or unique - would definitely be an EASY one both for its fans and its critics - 

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17 minutes ago, Reality said:

I think an FE 4 remake could stomach gameplay changes as far as "pursuit being universally available" - I see the constant defense of the original game's balance on this and other things - but FE4 Is actually pretty easy - I think the reaction to Three Houses - Normal/Hard - showing that the Fandom actually can pick up on games being a too easy nowadays - An faithful remake of FE4's design   whatever people's feelings on it being boring and/or unique - would definitely be an EASY one both for its fans and its critics - 

The original game was not balanced in the slightest lol. There is not a single non pursuit user that would suddendly became op whit pursuit, Quan being the only one that would really benefit from it, but would make many low tier useable. It would make some fathers way better, but bot to the point of game breaking(the biggest thing is Jamka becomjng way better than Midir as a father). The higher overall powerlevel can be addressed by a hard mode.

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23 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

There is not a single non pursuit user that would suddendly became op whit pursuit, Quan being the only one that would really benefit from it, but would make many low tier useable. It would make some fathers way better, but bot to the point of game breaking(the biggest thing is Jamka becomjng way better than Midir as a father).

Lewyn!Arthur. That is all.

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8 hours ago, EdelgardHresvelgTargaryen said:

I like Azel!Arthur better than Lewyn!Arthur

He would like to have better weight value in ElFire and Bolganone.

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9 hours ago, EdelgardHresvelgTargaryen said:

I like Azel!Arthur better than Lewyn!Arthur

I think Lewyn!Arthur has like a higher potential but Azel!Arthur just comes with pursuit which is nice and I prefer Lewyn!Ced too. 

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Just now, SubwayBossEmmett said:

I think Lewyn!Arthur has like a higher potential but Azel!Arthur just comes with pursuit which is nice and I prefer Lewyn!Ced too. 

The main thing I like about Lewyn!Arthur is that on top of eventually getting a mount and having no difficulty getting there, it also means you have Forseti in your party in time to fight Ishtar, and not just barely afterward.

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23 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

The main thing I like about Lewyn!Arthur is that on top of eventually getting a mount and having no difficulty getting there, it also means you have Forseti in your party in time to fight Ishtar, and not just barely afterward.

Two things:

When is it easy to train him? He should be watching Seliph hoard chapter 6 to himself and Chapter 7 should be dedicated to Leif. 

Also iirc I think Faval can kill Ishtar as base after being recruited so she isn’t really much of a threat. Also Brave Sword Seliph or Ares and his holy weapon are stronk 

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17 minutes ago, SubwayBossEmmett said:

Two things:

When is it easy to train him? He should be watching Seliph hoard chapter 6 to himself and Chapter 7 should be dedicated to Leif. 

Also iirc I think Faval can kill Ishtar as base after being recruited so she isn’t really much of a threat. Also Brave Sword Seliph or Ares and his holy weapon are stronk 

I'm assuming you mean "efficient", not "easy", because training someone who has Forseti is trivially easy, they rip the whole enemy army to shreds. But yes, assuming you give all sorts of crazy shit to Seliph, including the leg ring, and have him rush every castle as fast as possible, Arthur isn't going to be contributing much, but then, neither is anyone on foot, and Arthur at least has the ability to get on a horse and has no trouble killing enemies to get there. Sety doesn't exactly beat Arthur in this regard, at any point really. He's never going to be fast enough to keep up with the horses, unless you give him the leg ring, but then if you're willing to do that, why not give it to Arthur?

As for Faval... I just crunched the numbers, and it looks like you might be right, depending on pairing, and assuming you do a lot of aura abuse to get his hit rate up, because at base it's garbage. Holyn!Faval, who has the best base skill, has 112 hit with Ichival, compared to Ishtar's 58 avoid with Mjölnir. That's 54 hit, which is 94 hit assuming both charms and Seliph's leadership. It could be a pretty shaky 80 though if you're using someone like Jamke as his father, with an extremely high chance of death if you miss.

Edited by Alastor15243

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On 11/6/2019 at 2:45 PM, EdelgardHresvelgTargaryen said:

I like Azel!Arthur better than Lewyn!Arthur

But of course. Any other type of Arthur than Azel! Arthur means Tailtiu ended up with someone other than Azel. And that's terrible!

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1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

That's 54 hit, which is 94 hit assuming both charms and Seliph's leadership. It could be a pretty shaky 80 though if you're using someone like Jamke as his father, with an extremely high chance of death if you miss.

If you didn't pair Sylvia, than the extra charisma user can push that up to 100-90 range.

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