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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

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19 hours ago, Ottservia said:

You know what. I'm just gonna go out and say it. Fates is a much better story than SoV by a laaaaarge margin. Fates's story just has so much more nuance to it than what it seems like. It stumbles a bit here or there(chapter 15 of conquest I'm looking at you) yeah but the story is actually pretty good all things considered. Also I don't get the claim that Corrin is a mary sue cause they're not at all at least by my metric. Sure the story revolves around but that's kind of the idea behind the story. I dunno just playing through the game again and I just can't see a lot of the criticisms people have with this story. I can certainly see some of them but most of the really don't hold much weight either because:

1. that's the fucking point so of what the story was trying to get you to feel

2. It just flat out doesn't make any sense if you paid any attention

Both Fates and SoV have terrible writing. I have honestly gone back-and-forth on which one I think is worse, but I think I've landed on Fates being worse, and the reason for this is that, while Shadows of Valentia had specific writing failures in theme, character writing & progression, etc., Fates fails almost across the board. Based on your description, to you, Fates' writing is like Code Geass: an enjoyable nuanced story weakened by specific moments (looking at you Lelouch accidently using his geass on Euphemia), whereas to me, Fates' writing is more like Star Trek The Motion Picture: an interesting concept executed horrifically in almost every single way. I could list a huge number of issues big and small off the top of my head, but for now, I'll talk about the Corrin being a Gary Stu since you brought it up. 

A lot of people give different definitions of a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, and they tend to point out more a specific symptom, leading people to say stuff like, "Couldn't you say that about any protagonist?" A Mary Sue/Gary Stu, by the best definition I could find, is a character that unnaturally distorts the plot around themselves in a way that often leads to gratification/glorification of the character taking precedence over actually writing the character. A protagonist will usually be the main focus of the story, but they are not supposed to be the be-all-and-end-all that the story revolves around. Common side-effects of a Mary Sue include:

  • The character being talented at tasks beyond what the story establishes as normal or without training that is usually required by other characters; I.e. a character being "too perfect".
  • An absence of character flaws, or any flaws present not being treated by the story as genuine character flaws.
  • Every other character gravitating around the character in a way that doesn't feel "earned"; friends and siblings will adore everything they say and do, friends will admit to being envious of them, everyone immediately likes them and those that don't like them do so because they have issues that are their fault; not the protagonist's. 

Corrin is absolutely a Gary Stu. Corrin being the main focus would be fine, but they aren't just the main focus; they're the sole focus. Everything takes a backseat to Corrin. Hoshido's being invaded? Doesn't matter. Ryoma will go all the way into Nohr and hold vital medicine for a little girl hostage just to get Corrin to come home. Your a blob of the old Garon whose sole purpose is to set Hoshido and Nohr against each other? Corrin knowing the truth and needing to be eliminated (even though they can't say the truth) takes precedence. And this just scratches the surface. 

Right at the beginning, Corrin is established as being sheltered and never even fought a real fight, much less led anyone into battle. The moment they are in a position to take charge, they're a natural, and Ryoma and Xander defer to them. All their supposed struggles are really non-struggles most of the time: They're never hurt, they never lose, they're never outsmarted in a way that hinders things long-term (or even short-term), they have nothing to learn from, grow from, no bar to clear that they can't clear instantly and easily, etc. 

All of Corrin's flaws: naivete, inexperience, etc., never get properly explored or addressed in a way that the story actually treats them like flaws to overcome. They're established, acknowledged, and then everyone moves on. 

Perhaps most obviously, everyone instantly loves them except Takumi (who has huge issues), Garon (who is a slime monster that doesn't love anyone or anything), and Anankos (who's a senile hate-filled dragon trying to destroy the world). 

Corrin is absolutely a Gary Stu. 

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16 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Every other character gravitating around the character in a way that doesn't feel "earned"; friends and siblings will adore everything they say and do, friends will admit to being envious of them, everyone immediately likes them and those that don't like them do so because they have issues that are their fault; not the protagonist's. 

Okay first of all this right here that’s the entire point of the story. The reason the royals are so quick to trust Corrin is due to a number of factors all revolving around the idea of familial trust and bias through that trust. One thing that’s clearly emphasized is all three routes is the idea of trust. In both BR and CQ Corrin tries to gain the trust of the other side but it doesn’t work because she sided against them. They feel betrayed by the one person they considered family. Which is why in revelations they are able to recruit people so easily because the have sided against anyone and their actions speak to the idea of not betraying that trust.

23 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Your a blob of the old Garon whose sole purpose is to set Hoshido and Nohr against each other? Corrin knowing the truth and needing to be eliminated (even though they can't say the truth) takes precedence

 

Once again that’s the point of the narrative. The whole idea of the story is about looking past the water’s surface in order to find the truth. Corrin’s whole arc revolves around this. Birthright especially emphasizes this point as throughout the story they fail to see through deception and every time they do they get in trouble or someone dies as a result(for example in failing to see through Zola’s deception well he rats them out and they forced to escape. In failing to see through Flora’s deception, she kills herself out of grief). Garon is a physical embodiment of deception so him trying to prevent the truth from getting out makes sense in that context.

31 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

All of Corrin's flaws: naivete, inexperience, etc., never get properly explored or addressed in a way that the story actually treats them like flaws to overcome. They're established, acknowledged, and then everyone moves on. 

Inexperience I’ll grant is something that isn’t addressed but their Naivete most certainly is. Once again I bring up Zola and Flora. They trust both of them fairly quickly and you know what happens because of that well they fail to see through the deception before them. In the case of Zola, they are ratted out and are forced to flee. In the case of Flora, they are ambushed by the ice tribe and fail to save Flora from her grief to which she kills herself. In conquest they trust Garon and are rewarded by being blamed for genocide. 

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I like Peri.

Ive heard her denounced for being a killer doll, a monster, amoral and maybe if we are being serious there are very negative implications about Xander’s character that he would hire a psycho killer for a retainer.

While I will acknowledge and concede all these flaws to her detractors, at the end of the day...

I find her personality so fricking hilarious.

Just the image of a child going on a killing spree appeals to my macabre sense of humor. 

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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Imo, Dark Bishop isn't even that great on Hubert. You're likely never going to run out of offensive spells on him anyway and Life Taker isn't all that great anyway since if you're using Hubert right (that is to say increasing his already great range with a staff) he's not going to be at risk from enemies to begin with. Plus it only goes to tier 3 classes when ultimately you're going to want to stick him in a tier 4 class *cough, Dark Knight, *cough*

I agree Lifetaker sucks, but it having innate Fiendish Blow should count for something, because it means not needing to master Mage.

7 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

Imo, Dark Bishop isn't even that great on Hubert. You're likely never going to run out of offensive spells on him anyway and Life Taker isn't all that great anyway since if you're using Hubert right (that is to say increasing his already great range with a staff) he's not going to be at risk from enemies to begin with. Plus it only goes to tier 3 classes when ultimately you're going to want to stick him in a tier 4 class *cough, Dark Knight, *cough*

The thing is, Lysithea alone probably won't be enough, meaning that I'd have to have someone else weaken him, probably putting them at risk in the process. Looking at chapter 18 VW, he has 61 Hp/28 Resistance on Hard. Yeah...

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9 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Yes but again to betray Hoshido would be to betray that blood relation because if Corrin truly did view Mikoto as a mother like they say they do then they would view their Hoshidian siblings as their real siblings because of the mother they share. Mikoto wanted to live with Corrin and be their mother but she couldn’t do that. Mikoto sought peace and to protect Hoshido. To side with Nohr would be to betray those wishes. You should trust and side with your blood-related mother that is the message here. To side with Nohr would be to side against that blood-relation. Corrin siding with Nohr is basically the argument you’re making. Hoshido is a stranger to her therefore she shouldn’t have to follow the ideals of her biological mother. To side with Hoshido would mean that she does want to follow the ideals of her biological mother but in turn betrays the years of trust she had with her Nohrian siblings. In revelations she sides with neither but in turn sides with both. Corrin does not betray either side which is why it’s the correct path.

I mean I know it sounds like I’m repeating myself here but I just have no idea how else to explain it.

I can't repeat myself more succinctly then again saying it's an adjacent versus an adjacent of an adjacent. Changing Corrin's parentage makes the Hoshidons, undeniably, more distant as familial figures. You can still throw off step children of a mother he/she knows nothing about, but it's of a magnitude more distant than direct blood relation or direct personal connection. And there's really no great reason for it in the plot.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

 

I agree Lifetaker sucks, but it having innate Fiendish Blow should count for something, because it means not needing to master Mage.

The thing is, Lysithea alone probably won't be enough, meaning that I'd have to have someone else weaken him, probably putting them at risk in the process. Looking at chapter 18 VW, he has 61 Hp/28 Resistance on Hard. Yeah...

Yeah, innate Fiendish Blow is nice when it's around, but unless you want to keep him in an intermediate class during endgame, you'll want to have learned Fiendish Blow anyway. It also depends on what skills you've already mastered. I already had Fiendish Blow on my Hubert and when I made him a Dark Bishop and had an open skill slot I had nothing really useful to put there. I think I just stuck on Battalion Vantage or Renewal or something (which per the life taker thing, isn't all that great on him as he's probably not going to see many attacks launched against him due to out ranging enemies). If you could double down on Fiendish Blow and have two equipped simultaneously, now that would be excellent.

Edited by Jotari

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13 hours ago, Jotari said:

The blood angle doesn't work at all because the bulk of Mikoto's relationship with the Hoshidon's happens after Corrin is separated from them. Her experiences don't transfer to him psychically.

Well, wouldn't this make for a funny and novel twist.:

 

Ryoma: Corrin, my brother, how wonderful it is to see you after all these years apart.

Corrin: How I have longed to see you in person Ryoma, to hear your voice with my own ears, to run my hand through your hair.

Ryoma: You act as if you have known me before, I thought such few memories as we had were banished from your mind?

Corrin: They were, but as I slept in the terrible land of eternal darkness, I dreamt through our mother's waking eyes when she was awake. When she slept as I slept, her memories flowed into me. And there I saw the land to which I belonged, I understood it not for so long, but I do now.

Ryoma: Then come brother! Let us be as brothers should!

Corrin: Could we not do brotherly things?

Ryoma: Whatever is the matter, dear sibling?

Corrin: It's hard to explain, but, well, I think of you more as my child.

Ryoma: Oh... then how should I address you, Corrin-...?

Corrin: And I've been meaning to ask, did Mother ever get to telling Takumi she'd love him no matter who he was or who he loved? As long as it was consensual and safe?

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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9 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well, wouldn't this make for a funny and novel twist.:

 

Ryoma: Corrin, my brother, how wonderful it is to see you after all these years apart.

Corrin: How I have longed to see you in person Ryoma, to hear your voice with my own ears, to run my hand through your hair.

Ryoma: You act as if you have known me before, I thought such few memories as we had were banished from your mind?

Corrin: They were, but as I slept in the terrible land of eternal darkness, I dreamt through our mother's waking eyes when she was awake. When she slept as I slept, her memories flowed into me. And there I saw the land to which I belonged, I understood it not for so long, but I do now.

Ryoma: Then come brother! Let us be as brothers should!

Corrin: Could we not do brotherly things?

Ryoma: Whatever is the matter, dear sibling?

Corrin: It's hard to explain, but, well, I think of you more as my child.

Ryoma: Oh... then how should I address you, Corrin-...?

Corrin: And I've been meaning to ask, did Mother ever get to telling Takumi she'd love him no matter who he was or who he loved? As long it as was consensual and safe?

Pure gold.

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19 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well, wouldn't this make for a funny and novel twist.:

Corrin: How I have longed to see you in person Ryoma, to hear your voice with my own ears, to run my hand through your hair.

Corrin: Could we not do brotherly things?

Corrin:  As long it as was consensual and safe?

"Would it really be weird considering we're not related by blood?
Haha, just kidding!
                                                        unless?"

Now is the time to run, Ryoma. That boy aint right.

Edited by NekoKnight

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48 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Now is the time to run, Ryoma. That boy aint right.

Corrin only wanted to place his hand through Ryoma's hair as Mikoto had done when Ryoma was only a child. Corrin had memories of the sweet young boy with his first shinai, and wanted to relive them in person. It was the longing of a parent for their child.

There are even weirder ways I could take this gender-age role disconnection. Weirder than Ryoma trying to pin down the proper language to use when speaking with his brother-"mother", and having a sex and sexuality talk with Takumi in case Mikoto didn't. But I'll, like Hinoka, lacking for words to address Corrin's... unique questions... tap him on the head with the blunt end of a Silver Naginata so he can't ask any more for the next few hours, or maybe ever.

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12 hours ago, Jotari said:

I can't repeat myself more succinctly then again saying it's an adjacent versus an adjacent of an adjacent. Changing Corrin's parentage makes the Hoshidons, undeniably, more distant as familial figures. You can still throw off step children of a mother he/she knows nothing about, but it's of a magnitude more distant than direct blood relation or direct personal connection. And there's really no great reason for it in the plot.

And I can’t explain any better than that’s the fucking point!! Like okay what you’re saying here is that Corrin shouldn’t have any personal attachment to the Hoshidian royals because they share no blood or bond relation correct? And that Mikoto’s familial relations shouldn’t transfer over because Corrin only has a blood relation to her otherwise she’s a stranger, am I right? Well that’s the goddamn point. Like how else do I explain this to you. The message of the game is that(and I’m gonna try and say this as explicitly as I can): Corrin should view the Hoshidian royals as their family because they are blood-related to Mikoto who viewed the Hoshidian Royals as her children just as she does Corrin. That is the idea. Not saying you have to agree with it. I’m just saying that’s the idea the game is trying to push. You saying Corrin shouldn’t view the Hoshidian royals as family for the reasons you do is essentially you disagreeing with the message the story is trying to convey. A story is not bad because you disagree with it nor is it bad because a character makes a choice you can’t relate to. I’m sorry if that’s not what you’re arguing here but that’s certainly what it sounds like.

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3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

And I can’t explain any better than that’s the fucking point!! Like okay what you’re saying here is that Corrin shouldn’t have any personal attachment to the Hoshidian royals because they share no blood or bond relation correct? And that Mikoto’s familial relations shouldn’t transfer over because Corrin only has a blood relation to her otherwise she’s a stranger, am I right? Well that’s the goddamn point. Like how else do I explain this to you. The message of the game is that(and I’m gonna try and say this as explicitly as I can): Corrin should view the Hoshidian royals as their family because they are blood-related to Mikoto who viewed the Hoshidian Royals as her children just as she does Corrin. That is the idea. Not saying you have to agree with it. I’m just saying that’s the idea the game is trying to push. You saying Corrin shouldn’t view the Hoshidian royals as family for the reasons you do is essentially you disagreeing with the message the story is trying to convey. A story is not bad because you disagree with it nor is it bad because a character makes a choice you can’t relate to. I’m sorry if that’s not what you’re arguing here but that’s certainly what it sounds like.

Well first off, calm down. There's no need to get angry.

Second, no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying Corrin has less personal attachment because they're Mikoto's step children and not his own relatives. Corrin has a direct connection to the Nohr siblings, but has a connection of another connection with the Hosido siblings. That is lesser. Consider three scenarios. Number 1, you discover the son you've been raising for fifteen years is not biologically your own due to a mix up at the hospital. 2. You discover an affair you had fifteen years ago produced a son you never knew of. 3. The mother you never knew because you were raised in an orphanage has just died and you've inherited her step son. Do you see how the first two examples have a greater degree of personal connection than the third? It doesn't mean in the third scenario you should abandon the child, but there is no personal connection, only a responsibility.

Thirdly, no, I don't think that's the message the game is trying to impart at all. If it were, then it would have been clear from the start. Ryoma wouldn't have lied and told Corrin they were siblings when he knows they're not. Mikoto's desires would have been the only thing affecting his decision making. This information is not available before the choice. That makes the choice willfully and purposefully uninformed. I think the reason to change Corrin's parentage was done primarily so there could be S supports with the Hoshidon siblings and to a lesser extent to make Anankos feel more relevant and personal a villain.

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Sacred stones is better than Blazing blade, and I have a whole list of reasons why I think that.

Of the lords in BB, the only one I was even mildly invested in was Eliwood. Lyn was okay, and Hector was an exceedingly boring character. In SS, I found Eirika to be a very good lord character, especially with her character development throughout the story on her route. Even though Ephraim was sort of similar to Hector, he demonstrated great growth throughout the story, and doesn't kill people for fun and I think  that Eirika and Ephraim had better interactions with each other throughout the story than the BB lords did.

From a gameplay standpoint, I enjoyed SS more than BB also.  First of all, Lyn mode exists and the game forces you to play it  in your first playthrough. . I found the defense chapter with Dorcas and Natalie fun, as well as the side chapter searching for Ninis's grace. The worst chapters were 9 and 10 though. Both bosses were completely over-leveled, and the only  person on my team who could deal more than 3 points of damage in  a round for either boss was Lucius. And then his tomes broke. Eventually, I did beat both bosses, although it was a a very long process and broke down the momentum the story was getting.

 

The rest of the game was littered with "Merely okay" chapters,  alongside a few good  ones. Some of the chapters, I did not enjoy at all. (I was playing Eliwood mode.)

CHAPTER 17, Pirate ship: This was less interesting than the skirmishes in SS. On one side we have: a bunch of mercenaries and one archer! On the other, we have a handful of shamans! WOW! I cleared  the map from enemies in three turns, then waited for two more turns so I could heal people and watch for reinforcements and exp. I then polished the boss off and finished the map.

 

18x: Imprisoner of magic: At first glance, this looked like it would be a fun chapter: the boss had a seige tome, and there were a good amount of enemies. Then Kishuna shows up, at which point I just waltzed up to the boss, Slapped him, then left. There was pretty much no point to this chapter, especially since nils did not get to lvl 7, (I don't understandf how you would get him to lv. 7) and I was playing Eliwood's route.

 

Ch.21: A defense chapter where the boss spawns right in front of you. I could have beaten this chapter real fast, but I needed to recruit Heath and Rath. After I recruited them, I used Canas to OHKO The the boss and ended the chapter.

Ch. 22: A chapter that shouldn't exist. Pent broke this chapter. I killed exactly three enemies in this chapter: The mage near Fae's house, Paul and one of the wyvern rider reinforcements. Pent killed everything else. I didn't want to waste my time getting 700 exp with Ninian, and Pent killed the last enemy before I could find most of the items. (I got the ocean seal...)

Ch. 24: Another poorly designed Defense chapter! Hooray!! About twenty generic Soldiers and an overpowered boss!!! I accidentally Aggro'd Vaida with Hector on turn 4 when almost everything else was dead. I essentially just put Hector on the forts and used Pent's psychic to keep him alive. (Hector had capped def on a fortress and Vaida still dealt 14 dmg a hit.) I was trying to break Vaida's lance with Hector's face, but the chapter ended before the Spear broke. I found the chapter appallingly boring. At leat ch. 22 ended in about four turns, this one lasted 11.

Kenneth Ch. 25: Another incredibly boring chapter! The snow makes it so nobody can move at all for about 7 turns, (including the enemies) so I just wait for the Purge user and the Bolting user to break their tomes. The Wyvern riders try to charge my units, but get slapped and clapped by Florina. After that, there was essentially no threats. I walked up to the boss after beating the few enemies who were in my way and ORKO'd him with Canas. (This was quite the pattern. Canas was one of four units who turned out well and could double everything with Luna equipped.)

Ch. 26: Unlike the other chapters I have listed here, this wasn't on the list for annoying or gimmicky. I actually despise this chapter with all my being. One, as I previously stated, only four of my units were any good, and I didn't want to use Florina in a fog of war/ darkness map where there was a good chance an archer could sneak up on her and kill her. Canas was incredibly powerful, and was nearly undammageable by anything. Kent was fairly well-rounded and Hector could tank every physical object thrown at him, and had a good chance at OHKO'ing most enemies. Unfortunately for me, everyone else was terrible, which meant that I had to put a lot of effort into protecting my weak units while moving forward.  Two, Jaffar had bad A.I and bad luck. His killing edge broke on turn 4 because he only critted one enemy, who would have died on the hit anyways. At which point he stopped moving even though he was ajacent to an empty pillar. I couldn't even take the fast route to get to him because all of my other units needed my good ones, and Sain Lv. 19 cav likely would have been ORKO'd by the mercenary guarding the door near the sport where Jaffar was. Jaffar got killed seven times before I gave up on restarting the chapter and started using save states to ensure that he wouldn't die that fast. I finally managed to get Jaffar alive into turn 10, but I couldn't get Nino to talk to Jaffar because A) Jaffar was completely surrounded by powerful enemies who would easily kill her and B) I had to kill Ursula before Nino could start moving. Canas was the one doing all the heavy lifting this chapter, so ittook me three turns to get him into a range where he could attack ursula. (Canas was my only option since everyone else was tacking Chunky-thick damage from the bolting) I never did get Nino to talk to Jaffar, because nobody could have gotten to Jaffar in time and the fog of war kept on getting  Lyn or Ninian surrounded. (Ninian was far sturdier than Lyn, which was sad because lyn was lv. 20) After a lot more time and effort, I beat the chapter but Jaffar was unobtainable. I moved onto the next chapter feeling upset about the previous chapter. Then I realized I also didn't recruit Dart because I slapped him in 16x. I gave up on the game and consoled myself by jumping on a trampoline.

 

I have already written too much, so to be consice, I'll state that I played Eirika's route of SS a second time just to promote one unit a different way. I also understand I'm gonna get zapped for this opinion.

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16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Second, no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying Corrin has less personal attachment because they're Mikoto's step children and not his own relatives. Corrin has a direct connection to the Nohr siblings, but has a connection of another connection with the Hosido siblings. That is lesser. Consider three scenarios. Number 1, you discover the son you've been raising for fifteen years is not biologically your own due to a mix up at the hospital. 2. You discover an affair you had fifteen years ago produced a son you never knew of. 3. The mother you never knew because you were raised in an orphanage has just died and you've inherited her step son. Do you see how the first two examples have a greater degree of personal connection than the third? It doesn't mean in the third scenario you should abandon the child, but there is no personal connection, only a responsibility.

You see that makes more sense and that is correct but family is still family regardless and that’s what I feel the story is trying to convey. Corrin may have less of a personal attachment to them but they are still family to them regardless of that fact cause they are connected through Mikoto. That is the message I feel the game wants to get across.

 

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Thirdly, no, I don't think that's the message the game is trying to impart at all. If it were, then it would have been clear from the start. Ryoma wouldn't have lied and told Corrin they were siblings when he knows they're not. Mikoto's desires would have been the only thing affecting his decision making. This information is not available before the choice. That makes the choice willfully and purposefully uninformed. I think the reason to change Corrin's parentage was done primarily so there could be S supports with the Hoshidon siblings and to a lesser extent to make Anankos feel more relevant and personal a villain.

Ryouma lying to Corrin actually does make sense if you look at the story with the idea that the path of Birthright is wrong. If Ryoma told the truth that would actually go against the ideas of “finding the truth” that the game is going for. That is a claim I can 100% back up. Ryoma essentially tries to convince Corrin through Surface level half truths, lies, and bias. Nohr is responsible for Mikoto’s death, Nohr lied to you, why would you fight for Nohr who are full of lies and deception. The hypocrisy here with Ryoma I think is intentional cause the entirety of BR’s story has Corrin failing to see through deception(see Iago’s illusions, Zola, and Flora) but in the end they fail to grasp the truth because they’re only looking the surface level information and jumping to conclusions. This is why Birthright’s ending feels so unsatisfying cause it is. Corrin failed to find the truth because they chose the wrong path further emphasized by Azura dying cause she’s a physical representation of the truth(see how in every route she’s the only one Corrin can truly trust). Ryoma being a hypocrite is supposed to emphasize the fact that he shouldn’t be fully trusted and that siding with Hoshido is the wrong choice.

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4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

A story is not bad because you disagree with it nor is it bad because a character makes a choice you can’t relate to.

You really need to check yourself. Everyone is free to argue their position but few on this forum are so arrogant to get angry about people disagreeing with their interpretation of what the game is trying to say. It should have been clear as day that people don't disagree with what the game is saying. They're disagreeing with what YOU think the game is saying.

21 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Ryouma lying to Corrin actually does make sense if you look at the story with the idea that the path of Birthright is wrong. If Ryoma told the truth that would actually go against the ideas of “finding the truth” that the game is going for. That is a claim I can 100% back up. Ryoma essentially tries to convince Corrin through Surface level half truths, lies, and bias. Nohr is responsible for Mikoto’s death, Nohr lied to you, why would you fight for Nohr who are full of lies and deception. The hypocrisy here with Ryoma I think is intentional cause the entirety of BR’s story has Corrin failing to see through deception(see Iago’s illusions, Zola, and Flora) but in the end they fail to grasp the truth because they’re only looking the surface level information and jumping to conclusions.

Here you're arguing that Ryoma lying makes sense because it fits a theme you're imagining instead of why it makes sense for the character. Which do you think was the intention of the writers, that Ryoma is a horrible person who lied about something so critical to Corrin's identity and loyalty, or that they decided later on to make all of the siblings fuckable and didn't think about the implications for the characters?

People who insist on Fates hidden depth remind me of the people who believe in the "Darth JarJar" theory. Chances are, if the rest of the writer's ideas were awful, they probably didn't have some brilliant secret story that was just way too subtle for the public to understand.

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37 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

You really need to check yourself. Everyone is free to argue their position but few on this forum are so arrogant to get angry about people disagreeing with their interpretation of what the game is trying to say. It should have been clear as day that people don't disagree with what the game is saying. They're disagreeing with what YOU think the game is saying.

Okay first of all that’s not what I meant by that statement at all. I know I can come off as a bit arrogant and pretentious in how I view stories and I deeply apologize for that but I have nothing against people having different interpretations of a narrative. I’m all about the discussion. Despite everything, I don’t care if you disagree with me and argue your case. I am totally okay with a difference of opinion and criticism of my own arguments. What I don’t like is when people say something is objectively bad simply because they don’t like it or don’t agree with it. 
 

What I mean is just because you subjectively don’t like something that doesn’t make it objectively terrible. Now that is pretentious. The reverse is also true. Just because you subjectively like something that does not make it objectively good. And that’s how I’m interpreting these arguments. If I’m wrong, then please correct me and I apologize. 
 

37 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Here you're arguing that Ryoma lying makes sense because it fits a theme you're imagining instead of why it makes sense for the character. Which do you think was the intention of the writers, that Ryoma is a horrible person who lied about something so critical to Corrin's identity and loyalty, or that they decided later on to make all of the siblings fuckable and didn't think about the implications for the characters?

People who insist on Fates hidden depth remind me of the people who believe in the "Darth JarJar" theory. Chances are, if the rest of the writer's ideas were awful, they probably didn't have some brilliant secret story that was just way too subtle for the public to understand.

Okay first of all, No, I am not imagining this theme nor am I over analyzing it. There’s no such thing as over analyzing a story so long as you have enough evidence from the text to back up your claim which I do. God I despise when people say “oh you’re just overthinking it” cause that’s just a stupid statement no matter how you look at it. Intentional or not the evidence to make such a claim is there. Otherwise I would not be able to make the claim. Just because you’re not seeing that doesn’t mean it’s not there but no, it’s obviously because I’m overthinking it and there’s nothing there at all.

Though what I hate especially about what you’re saying here is the fact that you seem to be downplaying stories for their ideas. Every story has an idea or message it wants to convey. Because story telling is an artform and like all art is a form of expression. All art conveys values to invoke emotion. Again, just because you’re not seeing it that doesn’t mean it’s not there. Also there is no such thing as a “bad” idea in regards to story telling. It’s all in the execution of said idea. Why would you personally downplay an author’s craft because you personally view it as lesser? No story should be judged less than another simply because it’s “too simple to have a deeper meaning”. Christ do I hate that mentality. Ugh I’m sorry for the rant.

on the topic of Ryoma, I feel it’s a little of both. Obviously the devs wanted everyone to be fuckable, I won’t deny that but I don’t think it detracts from the themes of the narrative either. I certainly have my own issues with writers making every royal romanceable but that’s besides the point. Also it does make sense for Ryoma as a character to be that way. His father isn’t much different. It’s basically taking the whole “I’ll do anything for my family” mentality to its extreme. Also I have to ask, what’s so wrong about a character being a “horrible person”? If it fits the character then it fits the character. I don’t see anything wrong with it. There’s nothing wrong with hypocrisy in a character either so long as it’s acknowledged and addressed by the narrative anyway.

Edited by Ottservia

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Just now, Ottservia said:

Okay first of all, No, I am not imagining this theme nor am I over analyzing it. There’s no such thing as over analyzing a story so long as you have enough evidence from the text to back up your claim which I do. God I despise when people say “oh you’re just overthinking it” cause that’s just a stupid statement no matter how you look at it.

The definition of "overthinking" is looking for deeper meaning when there isn't one. "The curtains are blue hinting at the protagonist's depression and lingering regrets about their falling out with their mother" Or maybe they have blue curtains because that's what they were selling at IKEA. I'm not going to tell you that you can't theorize hidden meanings, but sometimes things just aren't deeper than their surface value.

Just now, Ottservia said:

Though what I hate especially about what you’re saying here is the fact that you seem to be downplaying stories for their ideas. Every story has an idea or message it wants to convey.

I don't deny the existence of themes, but plot/character coherency can't be ignored when considering the theme. Otherwise SoV would actually be a good story.

You didn't answer my question. Do you think it was the intention of the writers for Ryoma to be a horrible person? Because he is for telling that lie. I don't think the authors intended for that to be a reflection of who he was as a person because Corrin doesn't react negatively when the truth is revealed. He says "Huh, neat" instead of freaking out that he betrayed the siblings he grew up with for a different set of not-blood-related siblings he barely knew. That's not how humans behave, so I call it bad writing. 

7 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Also there is no such thing as a “bad” idea in regards to story telling. It’s all in the execution of said idea. Why would you personally downplay an author’s craft because you personally view it as lesser? No story should be judged less than another simply because it’s “too simple to have a deeper meaning”. Christ do I hate that mentality. Ugh I’m sorry for the rant.

Bad ideas include character/plot inconsistency and unbelievable events. Those are valid things to criticize in an author's craft.

And yes, I think we can dismiss "a super brilliant hidden story" when most of the writer's ideas faceplant on the landing. But I don't do that out of hand, I explain why I don't believe these theories.

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@Ottservia and @NekoKnighty'alls need to calm down a little. This is a place for unpopular opinions to be stated, not preceptions of family be debated angrily. We get the idea, you disagree about what fates is about, but this is going a little bit too far. Also, keep things civil. Instead of saying, "your idea is f****** wrong" just agree to disagree. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Benice
Accidentally put in photo

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17 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

FE4 is not that great of a story. People were hyping it up as the best story in the series but I don't see how. 

I have a similar opinion, imo the only the first half of FE4's story is any good, and the second half is awful. Definitely an overrated story, I think it's because a) large scale so distracts, and b) so few people actually know the story well and just go off what they've heard and a desire to sound like a "proper" elitist FE fan. 

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Just now, Benice said:

@Ottservia and @NekoKnighty'alls need to calm down a little. This is a place for unpopular opinions to be stated, not preceptions of family be debated angrily. We get the idea, you disagree about what fates is about, but this is going a little bit too far. Also, keep things civil. Instead of saying, "your idea is f****** wrong" just agree to disagree. 

 

 

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lol, I'm not angry. I'm not the guy dropping F bombs because people don't agree with me. I suppose I technically did when I said the writers wanted to make the siblings 'fuckable.'

Don't think you're coming away from this unscathed, Benice! I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the SS lords had better interactions than the BB lords!!

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12 minutes ago, Fire Brand said:

I have a similar opinion, imo the only the first half of FE4's story is any good, and the second half is awful. Definitely an overrated story, I think it's because a) large scale so distracts, and b) so few people actually know the story well and just go off what they've heard and a desire to sound like a "proper" elitist FE fan. 

Wouldn't say the second half is awful, just decent by FE standards. Sacred Stones has a more impressive plot than gen 2 IMO. The large scale is a double edged sword as it also means the countries aren't as well developed as say the Tellius games. I think FE4's plot should get as scrutinized as Radiant Dawn's and Three Houses. 

11 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Don't think you're coming away from this unscathed, Benice! I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the SS lords had better interactions than the BB lords!!

Okay I'll state my unpopular opinion. Eirika is a better lord than Lyn. This opinion is unpopular because Lyn won CYL1 and Eirika has yet to win so it stands to reason most people consider Lyn to be better. 

Edited by Icelerate

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10 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Wouldn't say the second half is awful, just decent by FE standards. Sacred Stones has a more impressive plot than gen 2 IMO. The large scale is a double edged sword as it also means the countries aren't as well developed as say the Tellius games. I think FE4's plot should get as scrutinized as Radiant Dawn's and Three Houses. 

Okay I'll state my unpopular opinion. Eirika is a better lord than Lyn. This opinion is unpopular because Lyn won CYL1 and Eirika has yet to win so it stands to reason most people consider Lyn to be better. 

Funny, the Tellius series also had a large scale yet pulled it off much better. Though that was largely due to PoR's solid setup, RD alone wasn't great for fleshing out the world of Tellius. Fire Emblem stories are generally pretty bad, I wouldn't consider FE4 Gen 2 the worst but I'd certainly consider it terrible.

I also agree with the Eirika > Lyn opinion, I find Eirika a very overhated character and don't see the problem so many have with her decisions in the story. I believe the reason Lyn is so much more popular is thighs and jiggle physics, however. This is the FE fandom we're talking about. 

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Fire emblem doesn't really have very many good characters, and the plots aren't really worth my time imo. Also the most fun way to play it is warpskipping and going quickly. 3h is one of my least favorite fes just because you go so damn slow in it (mages have like 4 mov until master class), still fun to play tho. 

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28 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Bad ideas include character/plot inconsistency and unbelievable events. Those are valid things to criticize in an author's craft.

I agree those are valid criticisms. What isn’t though is saying a story can’t have those ideas because it’s “too simple”. Again I’m under the belief that overanalysis doesn’t really exist so long as there is enough evidence to back up the claim of course.

 

31 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I don't deny the existence of themes, but plot/character coherency can't be ignored when considering the theme. Otherwise SoV would actually be a good story.

Well that was certainly the impression I got when you said:

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

People who insist on Fates hidden depth remind me of the people who believe in the "Darth JarJar" theory. Chances are, if the rest of the writer's ideas were awful, they probably didn't have some brilliant secret story that was just way too subtle for the public to understand.

Now this is a statement, I just flat out cannot agree with. It may not have been your intention but the way this is worded gives me the impression that because a few ideas stumble execution that means every idea fails in execution which I can’t agree with. Just because an idea fails to land that doesn’t mean the idea didn’t have meaning behind it nor does it take away from the meaning of the other ideas present well strictly speaking anyway. For me personally, I’m more concerned with why an idea fails rather than the fact that it did fail. Like for example chapter 15 just doesn’t work but I can at least see what they were trying to do there and I can appreciate it on that front even if it didn’t quite pan out. I know that’s just my opinion but that’s generally how I feel.

regardless another reason I don’t like this statement is that it does indeed imply that “I didn’t see it therefore I’m overthinking it” which I hate. Again, not saying it was intentional, just saying that’s the impression I got.

41 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

You didn't answer my question. Do you think it was the intention of the writers for Ryoma to be a horrible person? Because he is for telling that lie. I don't think the authors intended for that to be a reflection of who he was as a person because Corrin doesn't react negatively when the truth is revealed. He says "Huh, neat" instead of freaking out that he betrayed the siblings he grew up with for a different set of not-blood-related siblings he barely knew. That's not how humans behave, so I call it bad writing

Fair point fair point. But intentional or no, I still think it adds the idea regardless. I won’t deny the primary reason for that revelation has more to do with fanservice than anything else but I do believe the whole Anankos being Corrin’s dad was an intentional thematic point from the beginning without much relation to fanservice. There are a couple reasons I can cite but the primary one is Corrin’s design cause apparently the reason Kozaki designed Corrin barefoot was because he was told they were gonna be part dragon so he did it to make them look more feral. Fates has its issues definitely and the fanservice is definitely one of them. It stumbles a lot but I feel like it has ideas and those ideas are executed at least decently if you ask me. It’s not amazing or anything but it’s better than people give it credit for.

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6 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Okay I'll state my unpopular opinion. Eirika is a better lord than Lyn. This opinion is unpopular because Lyn won CYL1 and Eirika has yet to win so it stands to reason most people consider Lyn to be better. 

Icey, I thought we were friends, y u do dis?

I'm curious to hear why you think so. I think Lyn is actually one of the most unique lords in the series. Her story is divided into two phases, the first like a classical story where she gathers friends, retakes her kingdom and overthrows her wicked grand uncle (Gruncle Lundgren) and then the second where all of her values and identity as a mixed race person come into question. Eirika, from what I can recall is another naive female lord.

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Now this is a statement, I just flat out cannot agree with. It may not have been your intention but the way this is worded gives me the impression that because a few ideas stumble execution that means every idea fails in execution which I can’t agree with. Just because an idea fails to land that doesn’t mean the idea didn’t have meaning behind it nor does it take away from the meaning of the other ideas present well strictly speaking anyway.

This is why we stand on opposite sides of the debate. If you think a work is 90% solid, you might be more forgiving of their mistakes and try to see them in the best light. But if you thought 90% was awful, theories about the secret brilliance of a work seem doubtful. To go back to the the Darth JarJar example, I find it doubtful because:
1. If Lukas were capable of writing something so subtle and brilliant, why do we not see that quality in the characters/dialogue/story structure?
2. If he actually had this idea, why didn't he develop it in the movies? He just happened to scrap the one good idea he had because people hated JarJar?

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

For me personally, I’m more concerned with why an idea fails rather than the fact that it did fail. Like for example chapter 15 just doesn’t work but I can at least see what they were trying to do there and I can appreciate it on that front even if it didn’t quite pan out. I know that’s just my opinion but that’s generally how I feel.

I'm curious about why you don't think SoV is a good story with that mindset. You've said in a thread you created that you value thematic resonance more than plot structure so shouldn't you be able to handwave the flaws of SoV in the name of the theme?

"Celica trusting Jedah when she obviously shouldn't is the point of SoV! Celica's story theme is about the dangers of blind devotion and over-reliance on the gods!" or "Alm's story theme is the circumstances of one's birth do not determine their value. It doesn't matter if he's secretly the son of the emperor and a chosen one with super blood, the point of the story is that he was raised a commoner and achieved great things!" I've seen these exact opinions by other users on Serenes. Do you disagree with them?

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Fair point fair point. But intentional or no, I still think it adds the idea regardless. I won’t deny the primary reason for that revelation has more to do with fanservice than anything else but I do believe the whole Anankos being Corrin’s dad was an intentional thematic point from the beginning without much relation to fanservice. There are a couple reasons I can cite but the primary one is Corrin’s design cause apparently the reason Kozaki designed Corrin barefoot was because he was told they were gonna be part dragon so he did it to make them look more feral. Fates has its issues definitely and the fanservice is definitely one of them. It stumbles a lot but I feel like it has ideas and those ideas are executed at least decently if you ask me. It’s not amazing or anything but it’s better than people give it credit for.

Even if Anankos being the father were one of the original ideas, I think it's a good guess that Mikoto was originally the birth mother of the Hoshidans. Apart from her looking strongly Japanese (and not looking anything like the other Vallite royals we know of), her not being the real mother creates a screwy timeline where Mikoto is in Hoshido and romantically involved with Sumeragi while the latter is still married and has two more children with Ikona after Corrin is born. The change drags Sumeragi and Ryoma's characterization through the mud and destroys the parity of Conquest and Birthright. Corrin's real birthright is to Valla (but even that's a lie if you believe what the art book said about Mikoto and Arete not being siblings). It's not like Corrin not being Hoshidan is meant to be a important plot point in Birthright. It's only understood if you get one of four S supports (they still call you brother/sister after marrying you and having at least one child, hmmm), and Corrin doesn't react negatively to the revelation as you might expect.


 

Edited by NekoKnight

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