What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Icelerate]

Fates is not objectively worse in the story department compared to any other FE game because the quality of a story is subjective as it is based on opinions which are by definition subjective. 

[Ottservia]

I’ll agree that fates isn’t bad but story telling being entirely subjective. I’m not so sure about that one. Unless you can say my six year old cousin could write something in 5 min and have it be of the same quality as anything made by George R. R. Martin. 

[Icelerate]

8 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I’ll agree that fates isn’t bad but story telling being entirely subjective. I’m not so sure about that one. Unless you can say my six year old cousin could write something in 5 min and have it be of the same quality as anything made by George R. R. Martin. 

I'm saying writing quality doesn't objectively exist so no I don't agree that your cousin can write on the same level as George R. R. Martin objectively. 

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

An interesting point but then you have the morally ambiguous instances like death note(not Fire Emblem I know but it’s the best example I have for this sort of thing). Where Light Yagami is very much so a sociopathic serial killer with a god complex. Thing is though the story actively rewards him for a lot of his morally questionable/heinous crimes like the killing 12 members of the FBI for the sake of self-preservation. It’s not necessarily glorifying his actions per say but it’s not portraying them as a bad thing either. The point of a narrative like that is to get you to question the idea of justice and whether or not Light or L is right in their pursuit of justice. The story never really leans one way or the other but it certainly gets you to think and that’s very much so the intent.

Ehh Adachi’s whole motivation was that he was bored and that he hates people and well Gilgamesh just has a superiority complex yet they still work imo. Villain writing is weird.

Well different strokes for different folks, but I thought the imagery in Death Note ad the characters out right saying it made it very clear that Light's actions were to be seen as wrong. Closest to even leaning in the middle would be his repeated assertions that if he wins he gets to control moral rightness.

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well different strokes for different folks, but I thought the imagery in Death Note ad the characters out right saying it made it very clear that Light's actions were to be seen as wrong. Closest to even leaning in the middle would be his repeated assertions that if he wins he gets to control moral rightness.

What I mean is that he is able to get quite far in the narrative by doing horrible things. I mean He was able to kill his biggest threat in L, right? I consider that a narrative reward at least which again doesn't necessarily portray his actions as good but y'know and that's not to mention all the morally questionable things L does in the story. I'll leave it at that though. It's straying a bit off topic. PMs are open if you wanna discuss Death Note in greater detail though.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

What I mean is that he is able to get quite far in the narrative by doing horrible things. I mean He was able to kill his biggest threat in L, right? I consider that a narrative reward at least which again doesn't necessarily portray his actions as good but y'know and that's not to mention all the morally questionable things L does in the story. I'll leave it at that though. It's straying a bit off topic. PMs are open if you wanna discuss Death Note in greater detail though.

I mean of course he succeeds. Villains usually succeed. It's a trope called You Can't Thwart Stage One. And he's also the protagonist to boot which also comes with a certain amount of success by virtue (though of course Light does face some pitfalls too throughout the story). Saying a story doesn't reward immoral behavior doesn't mean characters can never, ever profit from their misdeeds. Otherwise there'd never really be any stories as villains would fail before they even get started. What ultimately matters is the main thrust of the narrative, that is to say how the conflict is resolved in the end. Which in Death Note ends with Light's death.

That's all I really have to say on the matter.

[Ottservia]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I mean of course he succeeds. Villains usually succeed. It's a trope called You Can't Thwart Stage One. And he's also the protagonist to boot which also comes with a certain amount of success by virtue (though of course Light does face some pitfalls too throughout the story). Saying a story doesn't reward immoral behavior doesn't mean characters can never, ever profit from their misdeeds. Otherwise there'd never really be any stories as villains would fail before they even get started. What ultimately matters is the main thrust of the narrative, that is to say how the conflict is resolved in the end. Which in Death Note ends with Light's death.

That's all I really have to say on the matter.

fair enough and I will agree the narrative does ultimately deem him wrong in the end. I'm just saying a story doesn't necessarily have to follow the same moral codes you put onto it. Just look at lovecraft, by and large the father of eldritch horror who is also a racist and often has racially harmful undertones in his work. Whether or not that makes his stuff any worse is not my call though.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Ottservia

[Tediz64]

On 1/24/2020 at 9:09 AM, ciphertul said:

My unpopular thoughts: Heroes is the worst thing to have the FE name on, and is a disgrace to the FE series. I feel like it only exists to be a mockery of the main games.

I'm so glad I'm not alone. I'd hug you in person if I met you. (If it didn't turn out terribly awkward and silent afterwards)

On 1/27/2020 at 6:59 AM, Jotari said:

Am I going to have to be that guy who brings up visual novels and old school adventure games?

I recently started liking these games. It's like a picture book with great music. And they have so many kinds of stories. Slice of life ones, comedy, romance, and etc. But of course occasionally you stumble upon works that the creators intent was to scar you for life and make you question love's existence (White Album 2, School Days, Myself; Yourself, and a few others). I need steam and other sources to properly tag their games 😞

I'm also shocked at sheer amount of how many games exist in one genre but not the other. Like holy poop the ratio of vanilla/smut to NTR/cheating is staggering. Supply and Demand 101 economics tell me that basically this stuff is super popular. It leaves my mind numb. We live in a dark world. Where those games are massively produced and bought more than romcoms. Like one search result for NTR on this one site had over 22 pages while "childhood friend" had 2 pages. Each page had like 20 results. That's like about 440 compared to 40. 

On 1/28/2020 at 6:31 AM, Rose482 said:

I'm not sure if this really counts or not, but here goes:

Fire Emblem is better than Final Fantasy, which is a very overrated series if you ask me.

Again, I'm so glad I'm not alone. Hell I think even the Tales serie is better than the FF (example Tales of Symphonia, Tales of Legendia, Tale of Xillia, etc)

On 1/29/2020 at 7:43 PM, Shrimperor said:

I really don't want a return to Single lord Emblem. I've seen alot of people over the net wanting ''Simple stories'' back, but honestly, until FE16, with the exception of FE9/10 (and let's not forget the blood pact), every story so far was meh thanks to being ''We good guys, other bad guys being controlled by dragon''. I really really don't want a return to that. Ever. Even Jugdral gen2 gets ruined thanks to that.

That doesn't necessarily mean i want route splits forever, but i atleast want multipe prespectives and lords ala Echoes and FE10. Preferably with them facing each other and being enemies.

Some say simple stories can be done well, but that has never been the case in FE. I want a fight between character, ideals, nations, and not we go kick some Dragon's ass.

I agree. Although if I could be greedy I'd want both. Like every other 2 games with spilt perspectives release one with a evil dragon bad guy. That way we can take a break from the arc-ing paths.

It'd too be stressful to face characters I like and have to hurt them. I was surprised at how much it made me feel sad to kill Ryoma in Fates and to see Elise die. I just couldn't stop crying when Elise died. That kinda fucked me up inside a little. Knowing her destiny I made sure to pamper her alot in my other subsequent runs and made sure she wasn't even hit by the enemies. 

For some reason I was a little more resilient to kill people in 3 Houses so it didn't make me feel bad but I don't want to gamble on that for the next FE. 

Enough digressing. My unpopular FE opinion is the mounted units are awful. I don't mean utility wise as far as if they get the job done or do it better. But like the idea of mounted combat itself is so broken.

I went to RenFaire and got a chance to joust. That's horseback riding with spear polearm. It is beyond difficult to control and fight effectively like that. I'd rather dismount and swing it on the ground. I couldn't even begin to imagine how hard it it must be to swing using a flying mount in the fantasy world. If I'm not mistaken swinging isn't even an option. You should be limited to thrusts. What if you accidentally hit the wing of your mount? Not to mention those little acrobatic flips for criticals and how they spin. I'm done. 

[Rose482]

2 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

Again, I'm so glad I'm not alone. Hell I think even the Tales serie is better than the FF (example Tales of Symphonia, Tales of Legendia, Tale of Xillia, etc)

 

As someone who is playing the Tales series right now, I 100% agree with you there. 

And this might be just me, but I honestly feel like Fire Emblem and  the Tales series tries much harder, while all that FF does is remake/remaster their games and call it a day.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Rose482

[Tediz64]

2 hours ago, Rose482 said:

 

As someone who is playing the Tales series right now, I 100% agree with you there. 

And this might be just me, but I honestly feel like Fire Emblem and  the Tales series tries much harder, while all that FF does is remake/remaster their games and call it a day.

Which one are you on? And which ones have you played so far? 😄

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I love Tales of and dislike Final Fantasy, but it's odd to compare them each other since their genre is very different. 

 

Anyways regarding the topic getting rid of a lord or at least an unit which causes permanently a Game Over once it's dead. I do not think it is necessary that a game has to rely on one or two characters the entire time.

[Saint Rubenio]

20 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

If I didn't know about the game beforehand, you could have told me that Three Houses was a Playstation 2 title released in the early 2000's, and I would have believed you.

Reminder that Berwick Saga was released in 2005. You know, the game that looks like this? Yeah. I know you've already seen this, just throwing it out there for everybody else.

Incidentally, my unpopular FE opinion (not entirely sure if it's unpopular, but whatever) is that FE should never have made the jump to 3D. Due to the nature of the genre, the series gained absolutely nothing from 3D, and has since been suffering from subpar visuals. It's a problem that stands to this day: Three Houses is a very strong contender for the most hideous triple-A game on the Switch. Heck, plenty of indie games on the eshop are nicer on the eyes. You pretty much have to bring up budget shovelware for Three Houses to even stand a chance, when it comes to graphics. Then there's the fact that it's got a 30 FPS cap and still runs like crap, with the FPS dropping constantly.

I can't help but wonder how gorgeous FE games would be if they remained 2D. I mean, just look at Berwick Saga. That game is beautiful.

[ZeManaphy]

A lot of people call Corrin the worst lord, but to me Celica is the worst lord. Corrin had at least some smart incidents like warning their family that if they did not come back when they left with Anthony. 
 

Celica, on the other hand, makes horrible decisions like giving up her life when believing Jedah’s lies, despite Conrad, Mae, and Boey literally yelling at her and despite her promise to Conrad. What’s worse, her allies end up being surrounded by Terrors due to her mistake. In the end, she becomes nothing more than a damsel in distress for Alm to rescue. 
 

In fact, the whole story of Echoes could have been written without Celica. All you had to make some minor edits like: Alm goes to Nuibaba after hearing from a villager that the Rigelian Army is fighting due to blackmail, the water gate could have been taken over by the Duma Faithful to prevent the Deliverance from invading Rigel to name a few.

[Ottservia]

13 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

A lot of people call Corrin the worst lord, but to me Celica is the worst lord. Corrin had at least some smart incidents like warning their family that if they did not come back when they left with Anthony. 
 

Celica, on the other hand, makes horrible decisions like giving up her life when believing Jedah’s lies, despite Conrad, Mae, and Boey literally yelling at her and despite her promise to Conrad. What’s worse, her allies end up being surrounded by Terrors due to her mistake. In the end, she becomes nothing more than a damsel in distress for Alm to rescue. 
 

In fact, the whole story of Echoes could have been written without Celica. All you had to make some minor edits like: Alm goes to Nuibaba after hearing from a villager that the Rigelian Army is fighting due to blackmail, the water gate could have been taken over by the Duma Faithful to prevent the Deliverance from invading Rigel to name a few.

Honestly I find Alm to be the worse written of the two lords cause when you get right down to it the only reason Celica looks as dumb as she is is because of Alm and Conrad. Celica’s arc is actually pretty good all things considered because it does a good job of emphasizing the flaws in her ideals and punishing her for it. Alm doesn’t do that. 
 

The whole point of this narrative is that Alm and Celica are two imperfect halves of a greater whole when in actuality Alm is perfect and Celica is the dumbass damsel in distress he must save. Like Alm is almost never portrayed as in the wrong which is a problem because he’s supposed to be if they want this story to work. I mean you could argue that he does get punished for it when he kills his father but it’s not framed in that way. Where as Celica is constantly punished for doing dumb things. Like I’m made to believe that these two are supposed to complement each other but they don’t because Alm is already perfect. He doesn’t need Celica. She definitely needs him though. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Ottservia

[Deathcon]

 

10 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

A lot of people call Corrin the worst lord, but to me Celica is the worst lord. Corrin had at least some smart incidents like warning their family that if they did not come back when they left with Anthony. 
 

Celica, on the other hand, makes horrible decisions like giving up her life when believing Jedah’s lies, despite Conrad, Mae, and Boey literally yelling at her and despite her promise to Conrad. What’s worse, her allies end up being surrounded by Terrors due to her mistake. In the end, she becomes nothing more than a damsel in distress for Alm to rescue. 
 

In fact, the whole story of Echoes could have been written without Celica. All you had to make some minor edits like: Alm goes to Nuibaba after hearing from a villager that the Rigelian Army is fighting due to blackmail, the water gate could have been taken over by the Duma Faithful to prevent the Deliverance from invading Rigel to name a few.

 Apparently I am terrible at linking videos on my chromebook but go watch Ghast's video on Celica to see why she isn't completely terrible and is in fact a okay lord.

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

Honestly I find Alm to be the worse written of the two lords cause when you get right down to it the only reason Celica looks as dumb as she is is because of Alm and Conrad. Celica’s arc is actually pretty good all things considered because it does a good job of emphasizing the flaws in her ideals and punishing her for it. Alm doesn’t do that. 
 

The whole point of this narrative is that Alm and Celica are two imperfect halves of a greater whole when in actuality Alm is perfect and Celica is the dumbass damsel in distress he must save. Like Alm is almost never portrayed as in the wrong which is a problem because he’s supposed to be if they want this story to work. I mean you could argue that he does get punished for it when he kills his father but it’s not framed in that way. Where as Celica is constantly punished for doing dumb things. Like I’m made to believe that these two are supposed to complement each other but they don’t because Alm is already perfect. He doesn’t need Celica. She definitely needs him though. 

Yeah. Alm and Corrin are the worst-written lords because they are Mary Sues, and Shadows of Valentia is a thematic mess due to the development team disagreeing on whether it should be a faithful remake or one that modernized and expanded upon the source material. 

I wouldn't say that Celica's arc is great; it is a victim of SoV's conflicted writing just like the rest of the game, but it is certainly serviceable and, at the very least, it is somewhat thematically appropriate. 

[Ottservia]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah. Alm and Corrin are the worst-written lords because they are Mary Sues, and Shadows of Valentia is a thematic mess due to the development team disagreeing on whether it should be a faithful remake or one that modernized and expanded upon the source material. 

I wouldn't say that Celica's arc is great; it is a victim of SoV's conflicted writing just like the rest of the game, but it is certainly serviceable and, at the very least, it is somewhat thematically appropriate. 

ehhh I'll disagree that Corrin is a mary sue simply because there's a thematic reason as to why everyone tends to trust them(Cause that's kinda the point of fate's entire story. the idea of trust, truth, and deception)  also there's an in-universe explaination so it isn't just because they are corrin. There are reasons for it and they do get punished for their mistakes in birthright and conquest not in revelations because they aren't really supposed to make mistakes in revelations as it's the path that absolves them of their character flaws really.

[Hanes]

5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

ehhh I'll disagree that Corrin is a mary sue simply because there's a thematic reason as to why everyone tends to trust them(Cause that's kinda the point of fate's entire story. the idea of trust, truth, and deception)  also there's an in-universe explaination so it isn't just because they are corrin. There are reasons for it and they do get punished for their mistakes in birthright and conquest not in revelations because they aren't really supposed to make mistakes in revelations as it's the path that absolves them of their character flaws really.

You dropped a bunch of hints about how Corrin isnt the worst Lord but could you please elaborate?

[Ottservia]

Just now, This boi uses Nino said:

You dropped a bunch of hints about how Corrin isnt the worst Lord but could you please elaborate?

I've already written a 27 page essay on this. I don't feel like elaborating further than that

[Hanes]

Just now, Ottservia said:

I've already written a 27 page essay on this. I don't feel like elaborating further than that

Oh fuck, alright. Got a link?

[Ottservia]

Just now, This boi uses Nino said:

Oh fuck, alright. Got a link?

it's in my sig if you want to read it. I always encourage good discussion on that so leave feedback. I'd appreciate it.

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

ehhh I'll disagree that Corrin is a mary sue simply because there's a thematic reason as to why everyone tends to trust them(Cause that's kinda the point of fate's entire story. the idea of trust, truth, and deception)  also there's an in-universe explaination so it isn't just because they are corrin. There are reasons for it and they do get punished for their mistakes in birthright and conquest not in revelations because they aren't really supposed to make mistakes in revelations as it's the path that absolves them of their character flaws really.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Having in-universe explanations for feats or fawning does not automatically make them no longer a trait of a Sue. For an example outside of Fire Emblem, Rey in the Star Wars Sequels is given all kinds of explanations for her feats, but they are still a sign of her being a Mary Sue as those things still exist for free and unearned and enable her to outclass everyone around her in everything that they are supposed to be good at. 

In the case of Corrin, I can understand the siblings fawning over them to some extent, as he is part of the family. But everyone except for those like Takumi who are portrayed as in the wrong for feeling how they do, and the extent to which they fawn over Corrin (like what Ryoma does early on in Conquest to get Corrin back) is seriously pushing it. 

Can you give even one example of Corrin getting punished for their mistakes in Birthright or Conquest? I certainly can't think of any. They are never shown to be in the wrong about anything; it's always miraculously never their fault, and they never fail. 

[Ottservia]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Having in-universe explanations for feats or fawning does not automatically make them no longer a trait of a Sue. For an example outside of Fire Emblem, Rey in the Star Wars Sequels is given all kinds of explanations for her feats, but they are still a sign of her being a Mary Sue as those things still exist for free and unearned and enable her to outclass everyone around her in everything that they are supposed to be good at. 

In the case of Corrin, I can understand the siblings fawning over them to some extent, as he is part of the family. But everyone except for those like Takumi who are portrayed as in the wrong for feeling how they do, and the extent to which they fawn over Corrin (like what Ryoma does early on in Conquest to get Corrin back) is seriously pushing it. 

Can you give even one example of Corrin getting punished for their mistakes in Birthright or Conquest? I certainly can't think of any. They are never shown to be in the wrong about anything; it's always miraculously never their fault, and they never fail. 

okay since both you and @This boi uses Nino asked I'll provide a couple examples. one from birthright and one from conquest if you want my full thoughts click the link in my sig.

Birthright: There are a lot of examples in birthright but the most prominent one is with Zola. Corrin chooses to trust Zola after escaping Izumo and as a result they're planned assasination of Garon fails and they forced to flee. Corrin later chooses to blindly trust Flora. She ends up betraying them and killing herself in grief. Yeah I don't think the game is saying Corrin right by those two instances.

Conquest: Corrin chooses to trust Garon and for this they are forced to watch the slaughtering of dozens of innocent lives to which they can do nothing about it. For choosing to side with with Nohr, Corrin fails to build trust with Takumi which leads him down a road of despair that ultimately gets him killed(Which is a plot point also brought up in birthright). 

I don't think the game really tries to say Corrin is right in any of these scenarios.

[Alastor15243]

2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Conquest: Corrin chooses to trust Garon and for this they are forced to watch the slaughtering of dozens of innocent lives to which they can do nothing about it. For choosing to side with with Nohr, Corrin fails to build trust with Takumi which leads him down a road of despair that ultimately gets him killed(Which is a plot point also brought up in birthright).

Takumi dies in Conquest because Azura wasn't around to purify him in the early stages of possession, which is barely even tangentially Corrin's fault. That's not an example of Corrin being punished for his mistakes, and if it is, that's even worse, because literally nobody blames him for it, not even Takumi himself.

[Ottservia]

6 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Takumi dies in Conquest because Azura wasn't around to purify him in the early stages of possession, which is barely even tangentially Corrin's fault. That's not an example of Corrin being punished for his mistakes, and if it is, that's even worse, because literally nobody blames him for it, not even Takumi himself.

Yeah but Azura's song only worked fully once in birthright. The second time it happened in birthright, Azura was unable to sing but Takumi was able to break out of it anyway(Or at the very least resist it enough to allow Azura to sing) due to his trust in Corrin. Something that is explicitly stated by Takumi himself.

Spoiler

• Takumi: *cough* *cough* It's OK, everyone... I'm myself again. Thank you, Azura.
• Corrin: Yes! I knew you'd snap out of it!
• Takumi: Thank you for believing in me, Corrin.
• Corrin: Of course.
• Iago: What just happened?
• Takumi: I just woke up for good. That's what happened. You were able to exploit some of my deepest fears and flaws, but that's over. My brothers and sisters need me, and I won't let them down. I'm a proud prince of Hoshido, and from now on I will live up to the title!
• Iago: How disappointing.
• Corrin: This is it for you, Iago. You're on the wrong side of history. Peace is coming, and you can't stand in its way any longer. WE WILL GRIND YOU TO DUST!

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Ottservia