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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?


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2 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

This may get your rage pumping, but I think Gay/Lesbian S-Supports were a mistake.

Imo, S Supports were a mistake. Kind of boiled supports down to one specific trajectory, which becomes jarring when you do it with multiple characters and only reach the goal with one. It either comes across as incomplete support chain without S or, more commonly, the S support being a pointless BTW let's get hitched. Now A+ supports, they were a genius idea and should always have been what S supports were.

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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Imo, S Supports were a mistake. Kind of boiled supports down to one specific trajectory, which becomes jarring when you do it with multiple characters and only reach the goal with one. It either comes across as incomplete support chain without S or, more commonly, the S support being a pointless BTW let's get hitched. Now A+ supports, they were a genius idea and should always have been what S supports were

Sorry if I seem like an idiot, but what makes you think A+ supports is a genius ideas, but S supports were a mistake?

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2 minutes ago, Metal Flash said:

Sorry if I seem like an idiot, but what makes you think A+ supports is a genius ideas, but S supports were a mistake?

Probably because A+ Supports could take more routes than S Supports could - an S Support is more or less always marriage, but an A+ Support could take things in other directions.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Imo, S Supports were a mistake. Kind of boiled supports down to one specific trajectory, which becomes jarring when you do it with multiple characters and only reach the goal with one. It either comes across as incomplete support chain without S or, more commonly, the S support being a pointless BTW let's get hitched. Now A+ supports, they were a genius idea and should always have been what S supports were.

You know, I didn’t really think about that. Now I’m gonna have to go back and reread all the Support chains I’ve got so far and see if any of them were actually done alright.

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1 hour ago, Metal Flash said:

Sorry if I seem like an idiot, but what makes you think A+ supports is a genius ideas, but S supports were a mistake?

I thought I made that clear. Having S as a final support either means the entire support chain is leading to an S support and then is suddenly cut off, or it resolves at A and then the S is more like an addendum. While A+ has no support content to it, you're just deciding which characters to pair together for the ending/extra gameplay benefits. I'll illustrate with an example.

Lyn has support chains with Marth, Alm and Sigurd. She S supports with Marth, having a support chain that builds from C to S. Then she also supports with Alm, building from C to A. She's already married to Math, yet she's having an obviously romantic interaction and set up with Alm that is never resolved in that playthrough. Fortunately her uspport with Sigurd doesn't build romantically, so it's fine for that playthrough. But then if you do S support Lyn and Sigurd suddenly their seemingly platonic friendship was romantic all along and he's proposing to her.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather leave the whole final resolution as being something that's part of the Character endings rather than the support chains themselves. Leave the support chains as vague and focused, ending on an A support that promises more, but not more that we need to see and something more that could go in any direction, and then just use an A+ support to decide which paired ending you actually want for the characters.

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1 hour ago, SoulWeaver said:

Probably because A+ Supports could take more routes than S Supports could - an S Support is more or less always marriage, but an A+ Support could take things in other directions.

Okay, that makes sense. A+ supports can be platonic, not so much with A supports (unless you`re Gilbert or Alois I guess).

 

Not sure if these are unpopular opinions or not, but here goes regardless:

- I wish we had more infantry lance wielders aside from soldier

-I prefer Fates class system over Three Houses one

 

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I thought I made that clear. Having S as a final support either means the entire support chain is leading to an S support and then is suddenly cut off, or it resolves at A and then the S is more like an addendum. While A+ has no support content to it, you're just deciding which characters to pair together for the ending/extra gameplay benefits. I'll illustrate with an example.

Lyn has support chains with Marth, Alm and Sigurd. She S supports with Marth, having a support chain that builds from C to S. Then she also supports with Alm, building from C to A. She's already married to Math, yet she's having an obviously romantic interaction and set up with Alm that is never resolved in that playthrough. Fortunately her uspport with Sigurd doesn't build romantically, so it's fine for that playthrough. But then if you do S support Lyn and Sigurd suddenly their seemingly platonic friendship was romantic all along and he's proposing to her.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather leave the whole final resolution as being something that's part of the Character endings rather than the support chains themselves. Leave the support chains as vague and focused, ending on an A support that promises more, but not more that we need to see and something more that could go in any direction, and then just use an A+ support to decide which paired ending you actually want for the characters.

That is fair, thanks for clarifying your stance. I see what you mean better now. I wished that`s what Three Houses did with it`s paired endings, instead of mixing the GBA and 3DS support systems, making getting character endings, pre DLC, needlessly random

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If its one thing that I'm greatful about Gaiden/Echoes is that Snipers are very useful compared to all entries before 3H. Had FE2 not showed up, Snipers would be the same worthless class like how its always been.

 

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I think Snipers are actually really good in FE6, but it's just that most unmounted archers you get in that game suck.

In a game like FE6 where you want to kill as much as possible on player phase, classes that are usually overlooked like SwordMasters and Snipers are actually pretty good compared to other games.

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23 minutes ago, Koops said:

I think Snipers are actually really good in FE6, but it's just that most unmounted archers you get in that game suck.

In a game like FE6 where you want to kill as much as possible on player phase, classes that are usually overlooked like SwordMasters and Snipers are actually pretty good compared to other games.

Binding Blade also has a disproportionate amount of flying enemies compared to other games too making bow users even more useful. Unfortunately in addition to Archers they also give you Nomads which are just better all around as a class, and has better units attached to the class too.

50 minutes ago, Harvey said:

If its one thing that I'm greatful about Gaiden/Echoes is that Snipers are very useful compared to all entries before 3H. Had FE2 not showed up, Snipers would be the same worthless class like how its always been.

 

Snipers were pretty decent in Fates if I recall correctly.

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Just now, Jotari said:

Snipers were pretty decent in Fates if I recall correctly.

There's still the issue of being basically locked to player phase, meaning they're a few levels lower than your enemy phase fighters, but they are quite useful for player phase, especially since they can reliably deal with ninjas.

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1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

There's still the issue of being basically locked to player phase, meaning they're a few levels lower than your enemy phase fighters, but they are quite useful for player phase, especially since they can reliably deal with ninjas.

There are options for 1-2 range weapons in that game at least. Especially if you're willing to go DLC and get Point Blank.

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1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

There's still the issue of being basically locked to player phase, meaning they're a few levels lower than your enemy phase fighters, but they are quite useful for player phase, especially since they can reliably deal with ninjas.

But enemy phase got nerfed hard in Fates though

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4 minutes ago, UNLEASH IT said:

But enemy phase got nerfed hard in Fates though

In the sense that it limited who can do it. But with proper rallies and auras, Leo, Xander and Corrin (and Camilla sometimes if there aren't any bows) can do it just fine.

37 minutes ago, Jotari said:

There are options for 1-2 range weapons in that game at least. Especially if you're willing to go DLC and get Point Blank.

Bows aren't the best weapons for enemy-phasing even then. The defensive stats of bow-using classes are kinda poor.

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15 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

In the sense that it limited who can do it. But with proper rallies and auras, Leo, Xander and Corrin (and Camilla sometimes if there aren't any bows) can do it just fine.

Bows aren't the best weapons for enemy-phasing even then. The defensive stats of bow-using classes are kinda poor.

Between the poison strike and debuffs, I found enemy phase strategies to be near impossible on Lunatic

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3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

In the sense that it limited who can do it. But with proper rallies and auras, Leo, Xander and Corrin (and Camilla sometimes if there aren't any bows) can do it just fine.

Bows aren't the best weapons for enemy-phasing even then. The defensive stats of bow-using classes are kinda poor.

Well no, you're probably not going to throw a sniper into a massive pile of enemies, but they're not so bad in Fates as to be outright inferior like in most games. They're not broken, they're not useless, they just compete fine.

Edited by Jotari
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7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well no, you're probably not going to throw a sniper into a massive pile of enemies, but they're not so bad in Fates as to be outright inferior like in most games. They're not broken, they're not useless, they just compete fine.

Yeah, like I said, player-phase units actually have their place in Conquest, which goes a long way to making them okay.

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11 hours ago, UNLEASH IT said:

But enemy phase got nerfed hard in Fates though

 

11 hours ago, UNLEASH IT said:

Between the poison strike and debuffs, I found enemy phase strategies to be near impossible on Lunatic


This! Conquest is extremely Player-Phase based. If anything, the problem in Conquest is that there are not enough Snipers!

One gets Mozilla, her man and Effie as possible Snipers. Then Cornflakes and her man, but I honestly believe that she performs better in a more rounded class. And one can complete Conquest (Hard and Lunatic) with no DLC, path bonuses or such, using four Snipers, four spell casters and two “tanks.”

Precisely because the game relies heavily on Player Phase is that Snipers are overpowered. They will always deal more physical damage than any other bow wielder and most other classes, at any given point.
Snipers and Berserkers are your best physical attackers, walking Delete buttons. But a Sniper will never fail, regardless of the Weapon Triangle situation, reverse weapons, tile bonuses or whatever. It is fast, accurate, strong and wields high-might weapons. And since it wipes enemies from 2-range, “one-hit“ and “one-round“ are synonymous in most instances. Moreover, precisely because its 2-range is that strong-yet-fragile units can perfectly be great Snipers; as Azura and her negative-HP daughters can attest.
Sniper’s greatest foe is actually a sturdy Wary Fighter unit. But that is when you send a Sorcerer with Lightning and keep advancing.
 

The whole “but Snipers have no 1-range” complain makes little sense in a game that has only two “open” maps: Chapters 19 and 24. One can hold a position in every other map with only two “tanks.”
(Chapter 20 is definitely not open; 90 % of the enemies walk across long, narrow corridors, and you always have the first move after the winds.)
Chapter 24 is the only one where the player is repeatedly surrounded, and even then, one can hold any one Enemy Phase in a cross formation with five pairs (one at the centre.) Meaning that you only need to focus on four units, and two of them already are your “tanks”!
As fragile as a Sniper may be, it is a matter of Tonics, bonuses and planning. The defensive thresholds in Conquest are never that high.

Edited by starburst
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19 hours ago, Jotari said:

Binding Blade also has a disproportionate amount of flying enemies compared to other games too making bow users even more useful. Unfortunately in addition to Archers they also give you Nomads which are just better all around as a class, and has better units attached to the class too.

 

And besides that, you have mages and druids that can sweep them out easily. You don't even need to sweep out a large portion of them since you can bypass most of them and by then, you get units that can sweep them out.

6 hours ago, starburst said:

As fragile as a Sniper may be, it is a matter of Tonics, bonuses and planning. The defensive thresholds in Conquest are never that high.

There are still several other classes that outweigh snipers simply because of their merits being fat bettar than snipers. As you said, fragility is something a sniper doesn't want to have when dealing with mages or fliers. Snipers aren't something that you'd want to use unless you have maps that have fliers. And even then, you have mages and mercenaries who can dish them out pretty easily.

 

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7 hours ago, starburst said:

And one can complete Conquest (Hard and Lunatic) with no DLC, path bonuses or such, using four Snipers, four spell casters and two “tanks.”

This sounds kind of fun, I may try this in a future playthrough. I'll start planning weird builds for it.

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7 hours ago, Harvey said:
There are still several other classes that outweigh snipers simply because of their merits being fat bettar than snipers. As you said, fragility is something a sniper doesn't want to have when dealing with mages or fliers. Snipers aren't something that you'd want to use unless you have maps that have fliers. And even then, you have mages and mercenaries who can dish them out pretty easily.

Did you even read a word they said?

Snipers are amazing in Conquest, because their weaknesses are mitigated by the map design.  Conquest is a very player phase heavy game, where bows have relatively high might and are extremely accurate (Certain Blow is a godsend against bosses). Fragility doesn't matter all that much when your goal is to delete everything from a safe distance (which Snipers usually do, even against non-flying enemies).  

Honestly Sniper's only real problem in CQ is Mozu can be a pain to train.

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14 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Did you even read a word they said?

Snipers are amazing in Conquest, because their weaknesses are mitigated by the map design.  Conquest is a very player phase heavy game, where bows have relatively high might and are extremely accurate (Certain Blow is a godsend against bosses). Fragility doesn't matter all that much when your goal is to delete everything from a safe distance (which Snipers usually do, even against non-flying enemies).  

Honestly Sniper's only real problem in CQ is Mozu can be a pain to train.

That still doesn't matter in the end when you have the excuse that they can't hit within one range unless you get the mini bow I think? And on top of that, its exclusive to birthright so unless you rely on waifu, you're stuck with one sniper in the whole of conquest. Why would I waste time with that crap when Conquest gives you units that have more advantages than snipers.

Its only from Echoes onwards that make snipers far better due to them being able to hit more than just two range and that they can hit one range as well.

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6 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

This sounds kind of fun, I may try this in a future playthrough. I'll start planning weird builds for it.

As I said, the biggest problem is that there are not enough Snipers in Conquest. More importantly, there might not be enough fitting candidates within your pool. Say, Mozu and Effie are good Snipers, and Azura could get it from Corrin, but Mozu's man is a bet. A Sniper must be strong and fast, or they will not meet the offensive thresholds. Effie can afford missing a couple of Speed points because she can actually one-hit Master Ninjas, Sorcerers and such, but other units would not.

Sophie with Aptitude, Sophie (Effie's), any Velouria and many Soleil and Nina builds are great Snipers, but they would only get it from Corrin, and all but Velouria already have natural access to bow-wielding classes. Thus, even if Sniper would make them better units, you might prefer to spare the hassle and just go with Bow Knight or Adventurer.

It is a fun ride, though. It shows you that Conquest is purely Player-Phase based.

 

9 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Did you even read a word they said?

Snipers are amazing in Conquest, because their weaknesses are mitigated by the map design.  Conquest is a very player phase heavy game, where bows have relatively high might and are extremely accurate (Certain Blow is a godsend against bosses). Fragility doesn't matter all that much when your goal is to delete everything from a safe distance (which Snipers usually do, even against non-flying enemies).  

Honestly Sniper's only real problem in CQ is Mozu can be a pain to train.

Thanks, mate, you save me some minutes with your explanation (which I thought that I had already given; oh, well...)

As you say, Conquest's map design makes it so that on the immense majority of maps, one can hold a position (and thus face an Enemy Phase) with only one or two "tanks." Moreover, since the defensive thresholds are never that high, these "tanks" can easily be Silas or +Magic Cornflakes or Paladin Sophie or whatever Velouria... One does never need to rely on Generals or the overpowered Xander-Siegfried combo.

Player Phase depends entirely on the capacity of your team to wipe areas and keep moving. And that is like 90 % of Conquest.

Oh!, and it takes you fifteen minutes to raise Mozu from Level 1 to Level 7-8 in her own map. But it obviously requires favouritism that not everyone may want to follow.


We could continue talking about this on the Fates's section, to not clog this thread.

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1 hour ago, Harvey said:

That still doesn't matter in the end when you have the excuse that they can't hit within one range unless you get the mini bow I think? And on top of that, its exclusive to birthright so unless you rely on waifu, you're stuck with one sniper in the whole of conquest. Why would I waste time with that crap when Conquest gives you units that have more advantages than snipers.

Its only from Echoes onwards that make snipers far better due to them being able to hit more than just two range and that they can hit one range as well.

The class isn't exclusive to Birthright, the post you were responding to already went over that.    

Being unable to hit at one range doesn't actually matter all that much in Conquest, because 90% of the action in Conquest happens during the player phase (where Snipers shine).  The reason it's important in other games (like say, Path of Radiance or Blazing Blade) is those are enemy phase games, most of the action is about tanking things and killing on the counterattack and having 1-2 range is important to do that.  In Conquest, trying to run an enemy phase team on any difficulty higher than normal (maybe Normal too, but I've never played CQ Normal, just Hard) you will get murdered easily because enemies in Conquest run skills/have weapons that punish that kind of play hard.  Like debuffing Ninjas.

Meanwhile Snipers (as they are in Fates) have things that benefit greatly from the player phase oriented playstyle that Conquest encourages, high hit rate, high might weapons, 2 range, and a boost to crit rate.  It's the exact sort of game where traditional Snipers thrive, because their usual disadvantage of not being able to counterattack murder half the map in a turn isn't really a thing.

This isn't complicated or hard to understand.

Edited by Glaceon Mage
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