What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[DragonFlames]

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I wouldn't mind if Fire Emblem took a note from Trails of Cold Steel and given NPCs character arcs that make you care about them.

To the point where you care more about the NPCs than the characters you're forced to engage with, which then makes you wish you could have them playable instead.

Semi-facetiousness aside, I think this is a neat idea, but... Fire Emblem has enough issues just giving its playable characters stuff to do half the time.
Echoes and Three Houses took steps in the right direction, but if we're being honest, it still comes down to two or three plot-important characters whereas everyone else is background noise for the most part. Based on this, I don't think Fire Emblem is the right game for this, to be honest.

Not to mention the Trails of Cold Steel saga itself suffers from its overbloated playable cast, of which literally nobody but Rean (maybe) matters in the grand scheme of things.

Edited October 2, 2020 by DragonFlames

[Shrimpica]

7 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Echoes and Three Houses took steps in the right direction, but if we're being honest, it still comes down to two or three plot-important characters whereas everyone else is background noise for the most part. Based on this, I don't think Fire Emblem is the right game for this, to be honest.

And i blame FE6 and it starting the support system for this

I will just qoute someone from reddit here

Quote

supports are just an excuse for FE writers to not even attempt to integrate side characters into the flow of the main story. FE6 created a system for characterization and development that is completely closed off from both the story and even other supports. As a result, 18 years later, we still have the same incredibly simplistic and formulaic system where only 2 characters can have dynamics with each other, which don't ever influence them outside of an ending slide.

I would be fine with supports existing to provide additional fluff for characters, but as is, it's one of the most stagnant elements in the franchise and, in my view, is actively holding the storytelling back, since IS doesn't ever have to try to do anything interesting or new with their side characters, because people only ever bring up supports as something positive or even a "core feature" of FE.

 

[DragonFlames]

3 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

And i blame FE6 and it starting the support system for this

I will just qoute someone from reddit here

Though to be fair, if FE11 is a faithful remake of FE1, side characters not mattering in the slightest isn't exactly a new thing since FE6.

Though I can see that person's (and your) point.

[Shrimpica]

2 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Though to be fair, if FE11 is a faithful remake of FE1, side characters not mattering in the slightest isn't exactly a new thing since FE6.

Though I can see that person's (and your) point.

FE1 is the start of the series so it gets a pass.

FE11 on the other hand...

Let's just say i don't think remakes should be faithful

Edited October 2, 2020 by Shrimperor

[DragonFlames]

3 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Let's just say i don't think remakes should be faithful

This, I agree with.

3 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

FE1 is the start of the series so it gets a pass.

It could still be levied as criticism toward the game as a whole if you look at it from the angle of someone just starting out and wanting to begin with the game that started it all.
And it's not like that ever improved from what I've seen.

Edited October 2, 2020 by DragonFlames

[omegaxis1]

19 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

To the point where you care more about the NPCs than the characters you're forced to engage with, which then makes you wish you could have them playable instead.

Semi-facetiousness aside, I think this is a neat idea, but... Fire Emblem has enough issues just giving its playable characters stuff to do half the time.
Echoes and Three Houses took steps in the right direction, but if we're being honest, it still comes down to two or three plot-important characters whereas everyone else is background noise for the most part. Based on this, I don't think Fire Emblem is the right game for this, to be honest.

Not to mention the Trails of Cold Steel saga itself suffers from its overbloated playable cast, of which literally nobody but Rean (maybe) matters in the grand scheme of things.

I would not agree with that. Because I think that isn't actually true.

Fire Emblem very much CAN do it, but they are basically too unwilling to do the extra work or hire extra hands to do the programming necessary to work around the permadeath and program things to involve the other characters. But they really could have handled the NPCs like Cold Steel had by simply making the cast of characters interact with the NPCs. Honestly, having main characters be able to interact with the environment would have been idea. 

This especially would have been perfect for 3H, given how we're in a school setting.

And in regards to how no one else matters but Rean, that is very much untrue. Every character does have a role, and even are connected to the plot with their own motivations in the game, which you very much learn and appreciate as you play. Yeah, Rean might be the MC, but the other characters get plenty of focus and their character arcs expressed that it makes them able to stand out very easily. 

[DragonFlames]

15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I would not agree with that. Because I think that isn't actually true.

Fire Emblem very much CAN do it, but they are basically too unwilling to do the extra work or hire extra hands to do the programming necessary to work around the permadeath and program things to involve the other characters. But they really could have handled the NPCs like Cold Steel had by simply making the cast of characters interact with the NPCs. Honestly, having main characters be able to interact with the environment would have been idea. 

This especially would have been perfect for 3H, given how we're in a school setting.

It could be a possibility, but all I'm saying is that if they haven't managed to make the side characters relevant for more than two chapters, I wouldn't count on IntSys' capability to suddenly develop the NPCs. I think this is making the second step before the first.

I do agree that Three Houses could have made it work, but as I said before, that game couldn't keep its side characters relevant to the plot for very long, either, though it is slightly better than in past games where characters have maybe one line of dialogue and completely vanish from proceedings afterwards.

15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And in regards to how no one else matters but Rean, that is very much untrue. Every character does have a role, and even are connected to the plot with their own motivations in the game, which you very much learn and appreciate as you play. Yeah, Rean might be the MC, but the other characters get plenty of focus and their character arcs expressed that it makes them able to stand out very easily. 

And then they get utterly and completely devalued by the BS Deus Ex Machina saves out of nowhere for nearly every single gosh darn boss fight in CS2, at which point I just stopped caring about them entirely.
It's not a good sign when I beat a boss and the first thing I ask is either "Okay, what bullcrap will they pull now to say 'I won, actually!'" or "Now how are we gonna get saved this time?".
Not to mention in CS3, where there are NPC characters that are depicted as so powerful they're basically instant-win buttons, which just kills the stakes entirely on top of devaluing the playable cast.

Edited October 2, 2020 by DragonFlames

[Benice]

37 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I wouldn't mind if Fire Emblem took a note from Trails of Cold Steel and given NPCs character arcs that make you care about them.

Berwick saga did this quite well, in my opinion. Basically every side character and NPC, (except for the spear seller, for some reason?) gets a character arc, and it is really cool. Another thing Berwick did was that the main lord simply was the plot-important character, but he gets not much more screentime than the other characters. Berwick Saga shows you life from the perspective of multiple groups.

And I guess my unpopular opinion is that the next FE should be more like a traditional FE than like Three Houses, maybe keeping a few things but scrapping the rest. I'd also really like a linear, one route, (or an SS-style route split at the most) FE game that just has everything put into that one route being high quality and well-presented. Whether you like Three Houses or not, it is easy to see that the four routes spread things out really thin, and I'd really like to avoid problems like this in future FEs.

[Shrimpica]

Cold Steel is the very last Fire Emblem needs to learn from. 

1 minute ago, Benice said:

And I guess my unpopular opinion is that the next FE should be more like a traditional FE than like Three Houses, maybe keeping a few things but scrapping the rest. I'd also really like a linear, one route, (or an SS-style route split at the most) FE game that just has everything put into that one route being high quality and well-presented. Whether you like Three Houses or not, it is easy to see that the four routes spread things out really thin, and I'd really like to avoid problems like this in future FEs.

I prefer more RD or echoes like with split armies and lords

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Nice to see Trails here.

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Julian Teehee

[Benice]

1 minute ago, Shrimperor said:

I prefer more RD or echoes like with split armies and lords

For me, as long as the next one is linear and has everything put into making one game good, then I don't particularly mind if they do SoV and SS style splits.

[DragonFlames]

2 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

I prefer more RD or echoes like with split armies and lords

Same. I liked that.

If they ever remake Sacred Stones, I hope they go that route, too (even though I harp on that game, I still think it has potential).
Though then we'd have to see which unit goes with which character and that might be difficult.

Edited October 2, 2020 by DragonFlames

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, DragonFlames said:

And then they get utterly and completely devalued by the BS Deus Ex Machina saves out of nowhere for nearly every single gosh darn boss fight in CS2, at which point I just stopped caring about them entirely.
It's not a good sign when I beat a boss and the first think I ask is either "Okay, what bullcrap will they pull now to say 'I won, actually!'" or "Now how are we gonna get saved this time?".
Not to mention in CS3, where there are NPC characters that are depicted as so powerful they're basically instant-win buttons, which just kills the stakes entirely on top of devaluing the playable cast.

I don't know why you actually think that's bad. I mean, I get the frustration, because of how we get humbled way too quickly in CS1 and deserved some wins of our own, but do you really think that a bunch of school kids would actually be able to solve things that easily? Come on, if anything, it's far more realistic and not needing to suspend your disbelief that school kids actually need to be helped and aren't actually the strongest. 

There's enough grounding to make you understand that you are still learning and have a long way to go. It's silly if you, the kids, actually can accomplish far more than the adults and talented individuals that have much more experience than you guys do. 

4 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

It could be a possibility, but all I'm saying is that if they haven't managed to make the side characters relevant for more than two chapters, I wouldn't count on IntSys' capability to suddenly develop the NPCs. I think this is making the second step before the first.

I do agree that Three Houses could have made it work, but as I said before, that game couldn't keep its side characters relevant to the plot for very long, either, though it is slightly better than in past games where characters have maybe one line of dialogue and completely vanish from proceedings afterwards.

I agree that for Fire Emblem, they haven't necessarily done the best in that regard, but that doesn't mean that they still don't have the ability to learn and make the next game better. But so far, I would appreciate if they at least decided to stop limiting themselves to the permadeath to not involve or develop characters outside of supports. They really do deserve to have more involvement in stories. 

Frankly, the split routes was actually perfect to have them be more involved, by having the "main" cast of characters be split as a result.

6 minutes ago, Benice said:

Berwick saga did this quite well, in my opinion. Basically every side character and NPC, (except for the spear seller, for some reason?) gets a character arc, and it is really cool. Another thing Berwick did was that the main lord simply was the plot-important character, but he gets not much more screentime than the other characters. Berwick Saga shows you life from the perspective of multiple groups.

Kaga games have definite potential and Fire Emblem really oughta try to learn. Only problem with Kaga games is that they really don't handle moral grey nearly as well as they think. Frankly, 3H basically blows every Kaga games out of the water in terms of moral greyness, and that's despite there being Agarthans. 

5 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

I prefer more RD or echoes like with split armies and lords

Definitely Radiant Dawn. A single story, but actually have multiple perspectives built on it.

[Benice]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Kaga games have definite potential and Fire Emblem really oughta try to learn. Only problem with Kaga games is that they really don't handle moral grey nearly as well as they think. Frankly, 3H basically blows every Kaga games out of the water in terms of moral greyness, and that's despite there being Agarthans. 

Kaga likes his dragons too much, and overall the presentation ain't very good in most of his games, I agree. (Although I think Berwick Saga does a very good job of being morally grey.)

 

My problem with Three Houses, though, is more that it doesn't really feel like a game. Like, playing through the same 12 maps four times just to see the whole story is highly unappealing to me, especially if they're really not interesting maps. Like, if they continue to write stories of this style, (especially if one of the main characters and stories is irrelevant) I...Don't see myself playing any new entries to the series, that's for sure. Morally grey stories can be written without sabotaging the rest of the game.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Benice said:

Kaga likes his dragons too much, and overall the presentation ain't very good in most of his games, I agree. (Although I think Berwick Saga does a very good job of being morally grey.)

Generally Kaga's moral grey is simply making a tragic backstory for the evil people, but they are doing something like worshipping or reviving some evil god that will destroy the world. I mean, he tries to make FE4 be morally grey, but the Loptr Church is a bunch of zealots that perform child hunts to sacrifice to a dark god. Hell, he only gave them some semblance of moral greyness in FE5 with two characters, and that's it. 

Not sure how Berwick Saga's is, so you'll have to tell me about how that goes. Maybe Kaga has learned to give better reasons to support the antagonist.

3 minutes ago, Benice said:

My problem with Three Houses, though, is more that it doesn't really feel like a game. Like, playing through the same 12 maps four times just to see the whole story is highly unappealing to me, especially if they're really not interesting maps. Like, if they continue to write stories of this style, (especially if one of the main characters and stories is irrelevant) I...Don't see myself playing any new entries to the series, that's for sure. Morally grey stories can be written without sabotaging the rest of the game.

Oh 100% agreement here. 

Would have been more interesting if each House had their own type of story in both Part 1 and Part 2. Like you learn about the Insurrection of the Seven if you're in the Black Eagles, the Almyran slavery and Alliance feud issue in the Golden Deer route, etc. 

I think the reason that this game suffers from being so "samey" is due to having not enough staff to give for the Switch game. IS needs to give a larger budget and hire more people.

[Benice]

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not sure how Berwick Saga's is, so you'll have to tell me about how that goes. Maybe Kaga has learned to give better reasons to support the antagonist.

Berwick Saga is kinda neat because it's told from the perspective of one side 98% of the time, but you get glimpses into the enemy nation's culture on occasion, and you realize pretty quick that what you see of them isn't what they are.

The game's plot is centered around two nations, (more or less) one of which, (protagonist's side) worships the church of Veria and the other side, the church of Raze. Everyone on the Verian side sees the Razites as cruel cultists who sacrifice people and rule tyrannically over the people, but we learn that the Razites see the Verians the same way. (Basically, Kaga subverts the whole evil cultist thing by showing that they're neither evil nor cultists for the most part, and you are just seeing it as a Verian.)

Edited October 2, 2020 by Benice

[Ottservia]

I feel like people don’t understand the point of moral ambiguity. It isn’t necessarily about getting the audience to question which side is right or wrong. It’s more so about getting the audience to understand that the situation isn’t always so black and white. It really is just a matter of nuance at the end of the day. I feel like people toss this term around too much without really understanding what it actually means. 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

I feel like people don’t understand the point of moral ambiguity. It isn’t necessarily about getting the audience to question which side is right or wrong. It’s more so about getting the audience to understand that the situation isn’t always so black and white. It really is just a matter of nuance at the end of the day. I feel like people toss this term around too much without really understanding what it actually means. 

Yeah, problem is that there are people that try rather hard to perform "grey erasure" by basically removing any sense of moral ambiguity by insisting that one side is morally black, evil, wrong, etc. 

Honestly, I think that players have gotten so used to villains in Fire Emblem being morally grey in regards to simply them having a tragic backstory, but are objectively wrong, that they can't accept that there can be people doing legitimately good things by doing something that would be considered "morally wrong".

4 minutes ago, Benice said:

Berwick Saga is kinda neat because it's told from the perspective of one side 98% of the time, but you get glimpses into the enemy nation's culture on occasion, and you realize pretty quick that what you see of them isn't what they are.

The game's plot is centered around two nations, (more or less) one of which, (protagonist's side) worships the church of Veria and the other side, the church of Raze. Everyone on the Verian side sees the Razites as cruel cultists who sacrifice people and rule tyrannically over the people, but we learn that the Razites see the Verians the same way. (Basically, Kaga subverts the whole evil cultist thing by showing that they're neither evil nor cultists for the most part.)

So hint at one side not being necessarily evil. Well, in terms of Kaga games, that's definitely a step up.

[Florete]

2 hours ago, Shrimperor said:

And i blame FE6 and it starting the support system for this

I will just qoute someone from reddit here

Quote

supports are just an excuse for FE writers to not even attempt to integrate side characters into the flow of the main story. FE6 created a system for characterization and development that is completely closed off from both the story and even other supports. As a result, 18 years later, we still have the same incredibly simplistic and formulaic system where only 2 characters can have dynamics with each other, which don't ever influence them outside of an ending slide.

I would be fine with supports existing to provide additional fluff for characters, but as is, it's one of the most stagnant elements in the franchise and, in my view, is actively holding the storytelling back, since IS doesn't ever have to try to do anything interesting or new with their side characters, because people only ever bring up supports as something positive or even a "core feature" of FE.

Blame permadeath. Permadeath is holding the storytelling back, not supports. You can't give a side character major involvement in the story when they could be dead at any given time, and every time a dead character is "not actually dead" it further defeats the purpose of having permadeath at all.

Supports are what enable the entire cast to get some depth while keeping permadeath an option. I'm not going to say they couldn't be better, but if permadeath stays, supports or something like them is necessary.

[Shrimpica]

2 minutes ago, Florete said:

You can't give a side character major involvement in the story when they could be dead at any given time

You can, with the story slightly changing to account for their death.

2 minutes ago, Florete said:

something like them

Something like them, where it isn't only 1 on 1 convos, would be good enough.

[Florete]

1 minute ago, Shrimperor said:

You can, with the story slightly changing to account for their death.

You say that like it's so easy.

If a game has 30 playable characters (low by FE standards) and 5 of them are major characters, that's 25 characters to try to involve in some other way. Imagine one of them being available at the very beginning and you give them multiple involvement points throughout the game, but in every single instance you have to change things in case they're actually dead, and if you just have some other character say their lines then did it even mean anything?

Now do the same for the other 24 characters. There's a reason these kinds of complex webs of choice-based narratives tend to stick to visual novels with little to no actual gameplay and a small cast of characters.

But Three Houses actually does do something like this where every student in your house will have a line or two in each chapter and after a while it's just kind of cringe because of how obviously unnecessary they are.

I guess it's my unpopular opinion - and position, considering I'm a series veteran since 2003 - that permadeath can just die for all I care. It's restrictive for storytelling and there are other ways you can incentivize players not letting their units fall in battle.

[Shrimpica]

1 minute ago, Florete said:

You say that like it's so easy.

Ofc it won't be easy. 

2 minutes ago, Florete said:

It's restrictive for storytelling and there are other ways you can incentivize players not letting their units fall in battle.

It really depends on what you value more in a FE game. Gameplay, Story, consequences, etc.

What alot of SRPG games do is give the player the additional side quest of not losing anyone in a map. Dunno however if that will be accepted in the FE fanbase.

[omegaxis1]

13 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Ofc it won't be easy. 

It really depends on what you value more in a FE game. Gameplay, Story, consequences, etc.

What alot of SRPG games do is give the player the additional side quest of not losing anyone in a map. Dunno however if that will be accepted in the FE fanbase.

 

16 minutes ago, Florete said:

You say that like it's so easy.

If a game has 30 playable characters (low by FE standards) and 5 of them are major characters, that's 25 characters to try to involve in some other way. Imagine one of them being available at the very beginning and you give them multiple involvement points throughout the game, but in every single instance you have to change things in case they're actually dead, and if you just have some other character say their lines then did it even mean anything?

Now do the same for the other 24 characters. There's a reason these kinds of complex webs of choice-based narratives tend to stick to visual novels with little to no actual gameplay and a small cast of characters.

But Three Houses actually does do something like this where every student in your house will have a line or two in each chapter and after a while it's just kind of cringe because of how obviously unnecessary they are.

I guess it's my unpopular opinion - and position, considering I'm a series veteran since 2003 - that permadeath can just die for all I care. It's restrictive for storytelling and there are other ways you can incentivize players not letting their units fall in battle.

This is why I say that the writers to be allowed to hire more staff to handle the workings around the permadeath.

It isn't impossible, ad Fire Emblem games in the past HAS actually been able to decently integrate characters to be more involved with the story or have scenes to give them story presence. A prime example is the Tellius series where Path of Radiance actually really worked around the permadeath feature, and even also built base conversations that involved other characters. 

The Tellius series is what I feel was the game that really pushed the effort in working around the permadeath. 

So we know for a fact that it is not impossible to work around permadeath.

But Fire Emblem needs to actually put in far more effort to do just that. 

[Jotari]

35 minutes ago, Florete said:

Blame permadeath. Permadeath is holding the storytelling back, not supports. You can't give a side character major involvement in the story when they could be dead at any given time, and every time a dead character is "not actually dead" it further defeats the purpose of having permadeath at all.

Supports are what enable the entire cast to get some depth while keeping permadeath an option. I'm not going to say they couldn't be better, but if permadeath stays, supports or something like them is necessary.

Well you could. It just takes twice as much work as writing one story.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Jotari said:

Well you could. It just takes twice as much work as writing one story.

Hence why IS should hire more staff for programming this. They oughta be able to afford it now. 

Fire Emblem is now a pretty big name at this point. Added further with how much money FEH is undoubtedly making. So I don't see why IS doesn't given a higher budget and hire more programmers to help get things going.