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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

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3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Except thats basically Roy too, and Leif, and you could say Seliph to an extent, and Eliwood. Marth is to me archetypal of about half of the males lords, albeit that percentage is now in decline thank goodness.

With Marth was more important because he was going against the trends of it's time; though his legacy with the series definitely ended up getting him some semi clones (Roy being the most obvious one); creating the Lord Archetypes.

Edited by Troykv

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9 hours ago, ping said:

My take is that female FE protagonists tend to be more interesting characters, but constantly get shoved aside by a male protagonist, damselified, or both.

Becoming a damsel isn't really something that is inherently good or bad from a writing perspective. If that's the case, Faye is the best written female character from Echoes. Doesn't Ike in PoR also get damseled quite a few times?

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Except thats basically Roy too, and Leif, and you could say Seliph to an extent, and Eliwood. Marth is to me archetypal of about half of the males lords, albeit that percentage is now in decline thank goodness.

Except for the fact Marth came first so arguing that future characters take from him, therefore saying he's unoriginal is dumb. He is the original. 

Edited by Icelerate

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I would also make the distinction that Marth expresses other traits, such as arrogance and a mild selfishness, in Shadow Dragon. It's subtle, but it's something that, in my opinion, sets him apart from the other somewhat similar archetypes.

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This is going to be a shocking take but FEH Aether Raids is more fun gameplay than any FE game. Tackling those teams requires a lot more skill, thinking and strategy than most FE chapters. There are more stakes in AR as well. 

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1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

Becoming a damsel isn't really something that is inherently good or bad from a writing perspective.

THANK YOU.

My god, I really have started disliking the term "damsel" as of late. And I think the biggest reason of why that is is becasue I've started noticing just how people tend to throw it around way too easily. And in a way, they make it seem like if a female character ever needed help, or found herself in a bad situation, that makes her entire being a damsel, regardless of what she has done before or after the point of which she needed help at. And I just really really dislike it. 

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35 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

This is going to be a shocking take but FEH Aether Raids is more fun gameplay than any FE game. Tackling those teams requires a lot more skill, thinking and strategy than most FE chapters. There are more stakes in AR as well. 

To be fair to FEH, there is a ton of skills to consider, only Fates CQ demands as much skill awareness. It's a bit of a shame that this is the case. Though on the other hand, having to check each and every enemy for some potentially death-dealing skill combination, and to remember what the tens of enemies on each map has and how they work together, is something of a slog. The counter-rebuttal would be that a Strategy RPG should not be breezy, or worse, mindless.

I'd commend FEH more, but I can't because a gatcha is no game for brain usage IMO. Sure, no mental exertion in FEH would make mobile gaming the junk the stereotype has of it, but when it is so much repetitive tedious grind, irrespective of thought demands, I would rather have it that way. 

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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13 hours ago, ping said:

Celica, apart from looking really, really fucking stupid because of how cartoony Jedah acts, gets demoted to the damsel in distress that Alm has to rescue. Notably, in the epilogue, she becomes the first queen of Valentia in marrying Alm. I guess being the princess of one half of Valentia doesn't count for too much?

I always thought that Celica became queen because she already was the royal of one half of Valentia, and then marrying with the royal of the other half. Though Alm definitely seems the senior of the pair. 

I never entirely felt Celica was a damsel in distress. Perhaps its a personal interpretation but I think a damsel in distress mainly lacks agency. And Celica never lacked that. Jedah didn't kidnap her, she went with him willingly. Celica still had her agency. She was just a big dumbass about using it. 

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46 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I always thought that Celica became queen because she already was the royal of one half of Valentia, and then marrying with the royal of the other half. Though Alm definitely seems the senior of the pair. 

I never entirely felt Celica was a damsel in distress. Perhaps its a personal interpretation but I think a damsel in distress mainly lacks agency. And Celica never lacked that. Jedah didn't kidnap her, she went with him willingly. Celica still had her agency. She was just a big dumbass about using it. 

I'm actually quoting Celica's character ending: "In marrying Alm, Celica became the first queen of the One Kingdom....". Although I probably shouldn't put as much emphasis on that one line; I just remembered it being a bit of a "oh really?" moment for me. But it could even just be the translation phrasing it awkwardly for all I know.

I agree that lack of agency is what makes a damsel, but I think that Celica becomes one once she walks into Jedah's oh-so-clever and elaborately hidden trap. From that point on, she's basically just the captured princess for the hero to reclaim - and because she never steps out of that role (she has like two inspirational lines before Duma dies), I'm feeling comfortable (and disappointed) filing her under "damsel".

But I don't need to fight over the term. ;): Point is, female protagonists in FE constantly play second fiddle (at best; most of the time it's the viola) to the male hero.

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16 minutes ago, ping said:

I'm actually quoting Celica's character ending: "In marrying Alm, Celica became the first queen of the One Kingdom....". Although I probably shouldn't put as much emphasis on that one line; I just remembered it being a bit of a "oh really?" moment for me. But it could even just be the translation phrasing it awkwardly for all I know.

I agree that lack of agency is what makes a damsel, but I think that Celica becomes one once she walks into Jedah's oh-so-clever and elaborately hidden trap. From that point on, she's basically just the captured princess for the hero to reclaim - and because she never steps out of that role (she has like two inspirational lines before Duma dies), I'm feeling comfortable (and disappointed) filing her under "damsel".

But I don't need to fight over the term. ;): Point is, female protagonists in FE constantly play second fiddle (at best; most of the time it's the viola) to the male hero.

I guess that made Edelgard such a welcome surprised. She's second fiddle to no one and is the most important of the three lords by far. Even when Byleth sides with her she remains in charge and the driving force for their faction.

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3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I never entirely felt Celica was a damsel in distress. Perhaps its a personal interpretation but I think a damsel in distress mainly lacks agency.

I suppose thats a good way of putting it. Though I'm not entirely sold on it either. Because theres something wrong in how Eirika has to be bailed out by Ephraim twice and he never has to be saved by her. Perhaps you're right that Eirika's twice circumstance is not damselism, but it's still sexist I think we can agree. 

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6 hours ago, Rose482 said:

THANK YOU.

My god, I really have started disliking the term "damsel" as of late. And I think the biggest reason of why that is is becasue I've started noticing just how people tend to throw it around way too easily. And in a way, they make it seem like if a female character ever needed help, or found herself in a bad situation, that makes her entire being a damsel, regardless of what she has done before or after the point of which she needed help at. And I just really really dislike it. 

I think you would love this video then:

Spoiler

 

 

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I never entirely felt Celica was a damsel in distress. Perhaps its a personal interpretation but I think a damsel in distress mainly lacks agency. And Celica never lacked that. Jedah didn't kidnap her, she went with him willingly. Celica still had her agency. She was just a big dumbass about using it. 

Interestingly, a damsel in distress that lacks agency is referred to in the trope talks video I just referenced as a classical damsel, and that is a bad thing as it means the character could easily be replaced with a non-sentient plot device without anything being lost. However, there are many other types of damsel in distress that aren't that at all and aren't bad, as the video explains. Would you consider any of those other types that the video mentions to also be damsels in distress?

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the inherent sexism of how female characters are still written in fire emblem needs little further look than fates and how camilla/hinoka were portrayed relative to their younger brothers leo/takumi in the storyline. gender is absolutely put above age in their characterization as families.

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8 minutes ago, Axie said:

the inherent sexism of how female characters are still written in fire emblem needs little further look than fates and how camilla/hinoka were portrayed relative to their younger brothers leo/takumi in the storyline. gender is absolutely put above age in their characterization as families.

To a large extend that's true. The brothers are depicted more as truly being leaders of their kingdom while the sisters, even the older ones are just supporters. Unlike Hinoka who's clearly an afterthought Camilla has some degree of status but its made very clear that Leo's a far bigger deal than she is. Overall the sisters seem overshadowed by their little brothers in the story, the lore and in Hinoka's case gameplay. They don't even get legendary weapons. 

But with Camilla I think her being Leo's junior rather fits her. Camilla doesn't seem to have much of a desire to be a general, a politician or a warrior. She just wants to spoil her babies and enjoy some luxury. Unlike Hinoka she's officially next in line after Xander but gives it to Leo because she just doesn't want to be queen. With Hinoka her lesser status is harder to justify since she seems very driven and wants to be a warrior who defends Hoshido. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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8 minutes ago, Axie said:

the inherent sexism of how female characters are still written in fire emblem needs little further look than fates and how camilla/hinoka were portrayed relative to their younger brothers leo/takumi in the storyline. gender is absolutely put above age in their characterization as families.

Really?

I mean Camilla yes, but Hinoka? What personality does she have? Any interactions with her are like interactions with cardboard.

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9 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I mean Camilla yes, but Hinoka? What personality does she have? Any interactions with her are like interactions with cardboard.

Camilla isn't much different. She's little else other than a one-note trope. Yes, she has personality, but that personality is so offensively bad that I'd rather have the cardboard. At least Hinoka interacts in a charming, sisterly way with Corrin so long as you ignore the S-support.

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6 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

At least Hinoka interacts in a charming, sisterly way with Corrin so long as you ignore the S-support.

Okay yeah I can agree with this. I actually haven’t seen the S support but I’m assuming it involves her pulling a letter out of nowhere saying it’s okay like Sakura’s and (probably) Takumi’s.

7 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

Camilla isn't much different. She's little else other than a one-note trope. Yes, she has personality, but that personality is so offensively bad that I'd rather have the cardboard.

I think like every Fire Emblem fan ever could agree on that, instead of focusing on making her character three dimensional, they wanted to make sure you saw all the dimensions to... her design.

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1 minute ago, Sooks said:

Okay yeah I can agree with this. I actually haven’t seen the S support but I’m assuming it involves her pulling a letter out of nowhere saying it’s okay like Sakura’s and (probably) Takumi’s.

Basically, yeah.

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

I think like every Fire Emblem fan ever could agree on that, instead of focusing on making her character three dimensional, they wanted to make sure you saw all the dimensions to... her design.

Exactly. Which is a good example of why otaku pandering, fanservice, and the like rarely do anything good for FE but remove or take attention away from the substance its characters can or do already have.

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13 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

She's certainly more interesting. Ike is great but pretty conventional. 

Dimitri is also more compelling than Ike IMO. For Ike, his revenge quest is just a means to make him relevant while for Dimitri, it is an important part of his growth as a character. 

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1 hour ago, Sooks said:

Really?

I mean Camilla yes, but Hinoka? What personality does she have? Any interactions with her are like interactions with cardboard.

yes, exactly! both camilla and hinoka are on paper second in line in their kingdoms, and hinoka is far and away the least developed and memorable of all ten royals in fates. would it have killed them to give her the takumi treatment and then have the younger brother be something else? girl!takumi would do numbers in the fandom, so it's not about how the fans would take it, either. the writers just aren't quite there with giving spotlight to wonen.

camilla got some characterization and a manner of explanation as to why leo has the spotlight over her, but also her entire character is a fetishistic catastrophe, so.

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1 hour ago, twilitfalchion said:

Exactly. Which is a good example of why otaku pandering, fanservice, and the like rarely do anything good for FE but remove or take attention away from the substance its characters can or do already have.

I mean without Otaku pandering we wouldn’t really have Severa so you take the good with the bad as I always say. Even so, it doesn’t bother me personally. It’s not like it’s fairy tail or fire force levels of intrusive. I’ve seen worse implementations of fanservice

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14 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Has Roy ever been insecure? Even Eliwood had little insecurity in him. 

 yes if you read certain supports, no if you skip it (or didnt pick the one that touch upon it). maybe because its the early days of support its handled that way (the story is just journey, while every char development is in support no matter how significant)

2 hours ago, twilitfalchion said:

Exactly. Which is a good example of why otaku pandering, fanservice, and the like rarely do anything good for FE but remove or take attention away from the substance its characters can or do already have.

rather than not have any place in FE, imo it becomes bad when it doesnt suit the tone of the ongoing story. its like how many bad anime shove handle beach episode (which didnt meant to serve anything to the story). if said FE installment is just you know, them playing a happy simulation of strategy, not actual war invasion that kills many innocent people. then i could get with it having fan service, albeit in moderation.

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3 hours ago, joevar said:

rather than not have any place in FE, imo it becomes bad when it doesnt suit the tone of the ongoing story. its like how many bad anime shove handle beach episode (which didnt meant to serve anything to the story). if said FE installment is just you know, them playing a happy simulation of strategy, not actual war invasion that kills many innocent people. then i could get with it having fan service, albeit in moderation.

Yeah, I’d agree with that. In other game series, sure. Why not?

But in FE, a series about large scale wars and supernatural conflicts, it’s often at odds with the tone the series is meant to have. It just doesn’t belong, IMO.

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Re: Fanservice, I think that it's fine until it either becomes the character, (Camilla being a prime example, but(t) there are several others before and after her) or it gets forced in.

Every game in the series, (Barring kind of the first two FEs, but that's only because of graphical limitations and whatnot) has fanservice and/or in some form. I don't think there's too much of a correlation between the series becoming more widely known and Fanservice. Even looking at the most infamous game for this, Fates, only has a few really bad examples of it and the rest is matched by most other games. It is certainly possible to do fanservice in a good way-Micaiah, Sonya, Severa/Selena, Petra and FE10 Ike and many more all are somewhat fanservicey and have good designs.

In terms of ways the series does do fanservice poorly, it's more when it becomes a crutch for the character than a facet. Dorothea and Manuela have fanservicey designs, but it plays into their character development. The fanservice does not detract from the depth and sorta enhances it. Other characters, such as Hilda and Camilla get absorbed by their designs and end up not having much else to them beyond what you see, and whatever else there is there is a small portion hidden beneath everything else.

 

But I dunno, it's really early in the morning so I'm not certain that I managed to make a cohesive statement there...

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10 minutes ago, Benice said:

Micaiah, Sonya, Severa/Selena, Petra and FE10 Ike and many more all are somewhat fanservicey and have good designs.

I pretty much agree with what you said, or at least understand where you’re coming from. I do fail to see where characters like Miccy and Severa fall into fanservice though.

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2 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

I do fail to see where characters like Miccy and Severa fall into fanservice though.

Just stuff like superfluously exposed skin/tights. They aren't egregious example of fanservice at all, but they are popular characters who do have some. I mean, I consider basically every peg rider in the series to be fanservicey. Not that I consider that do be a bad thing, mind you. I don't particularly care what my characters look like, so long as they aren't sticking out like a sore thumb and remain being one part of that character.

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