What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[null]

8 minutes ago, Benice said:

Just stuff like superfluously exposed skin/tights. They aren't egregious example of fanservice at all, but they are popular characters who do have some. I mean, I consider basically every peg rider in the series to be fanservicey. Not that I consider that do be a bad thing, mind you. I don't particularly care what my characters look like, so long as they aren't sticking out like a sore thumb and remain being one part of that character.

Ah, I see. I don’t consider them to be fanservice, personally, nor do I consider peg knights to be fanservicey (for the most part). To me, fanservice is design choices that are made to be so for the sake of drawing attention to certain aspects of the characters rather than their actual personality and whatnot. As long as that design is somewhat practical or makes sense in context, I don’t mind it.

FE7 Lyn, for example, isn’t fanservice to me, because her design is very reminiscent of what I can imagine an outfit worn by a nomadic/Asian/whatever-style female warrior would dress like. It makes sense to me in context.

In contrast, then you look at an aesthetic atrocity like Camilla, and you see the height of both impractical design and blatantly offensive fanservice, haha.

Edited November 22, 2020 by twilitfalchion

[Benice]

5 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

FE7 Lyn, for example, isn’t fanservice to me, because her design is very reminiscent of what I can imagine an outfit worn by a nomadic/Asian/whatever-style female warrior would dress like. It makes sense to me in context.

I guess we have different definitions! I file fanservice as basically anything to enhance a character's physical beauty in a nonessential or somewhat impractical way. FE as a series hasn't ever really tried to be realistic or practical.

I consider Lyn to be one of the most fanservicey characters in the series, but I don't mind-As you stated, it fits her.

7 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

In contrast, then you look at an aesthetic atrocity like Camilla, and you see the height of both impractical design and blatantly offensive fanservice, haha.

No arguments here. I'd use Camilla as a guideline for what not to do.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Benice said:

I guess we have different definitions! I file fanservice as basically anything to enhance a character's physical beauty in a nonessential or somewhat impractical way. FE as a series hasn't ever really tried to be realistic or practical.

I consider Lyn to be one of the most fanservicey characters in the series, but I don't mind-As you stated, it fits her.

No arguments here. I'd use Camilla as a guideline for what not to do.

GBA Jiggle Physics!

 

[Axie]

this is where the actual word "objectification" comes in. lyn was obviously designed to be good looking and appeal to straight male fans, but it's also not intrusive to the storyline nor entirely defines her character. i am fine with it.

meanwhile, camilla's introduction in fates birthright literally starts with a close-up of her breasts before we see her face. that's what's camilla is supposed to be to us. sex object first, nohrian royal who should matter second.

[Samz707]

2 hours ago, Benice said:

I guess we have different definitions! I file fanservice as basically anything to enhance a character's physical beauty in a nonessential or somewhat impractical way. FE as a series hasn't ever really tried to be realistic or practical.

I consider Lyn to be one of the most fanservicey characters in the series, but I don't mind-As you stated, it fits her.

No arguments here. I'd use Camilla as a guideline for what not to do.

For Lyn, it doesn't quite bother me considering how she's just a Nomad on the plains, so her just wearing essentially a kinda dress and lack of armor makes sense, she's pretty much a civilian. (and oh boy, do her stats reflect the fact she's not wearing armor.)

Granted, she'd probably put some on by Eliwood mode but no one got any different sprites/portraits for that mode so it doesn't bother me.

(Also no cutscene close ups of her "Character" like with Camilla.)

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Axie said:

this is where the actual word "objectification" comes in. lyn was obviously designed to be good looking and appeal to straight male fans, but it's also not intrusive to the storyline nor entirely defines her character. i am fine with it.

meanwhile, camilla's introduction in fates birthright literally starts with a close-up of her breasts before we see her face. that's what's camilla is supposed to be to us. sex object first, nohrian royal who should matter second.

Hard to be intrusive to the storyline when Lyn's not intrusive to the storyline!

 

(okay intrusive would suggest negative appearance in the storyline when we want positive role for her in the story, but I was trying to maintain format for the sake of humor).

Edited November 22, 2020 by Jotari

[Sooks]

8 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean without Otaku pandering we wouldn’t really have Severa so you take the good with the bad as I always say. Even so, it doesn’t bother me personally. It’s not like it’s fairy tail or fire force levels of intrusive. I’ve seen worse implementations of fanservice

How is Severa otaku pandering? I mean I get that she’s a 2nd gen character but I’m not sure that really counts...

24 minutes ago, Axie said:

this is where the actual word "objectification" comes in. lyn was obviously designed to be good looking and appeal to straight male fans, but it's also not intrusive to the storyline nor entirely defines her character. i am fine with it.

The fact that I never noticed until other people started talking about it, after I had played the entire game and used her, says enough about how she was handled in my eyes.

24 minutes ago, Axie said:

meanwhile, camilla's introduction in fates birthright literally starts with a close-up of her breasts before we see her face. that's what's camilla is supposed to be to us. sex object first, nohrian royal who should matter second.

Yeah that scene makes me cringe, they just had to zoom in on every area. This is a Fire Emblem not a.... different type of game.

[Axie]

29 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Hard to be intrusive to the storyline when Lyn's not intrusive to the storyline!

 

(okay intrusive would suggest negative appearance in the storyline when we want positive role for her in the story, but I was trying to maintain format for the sake of humor).

lmao you are not wrong! not the time to start dragging the blazing blade storyline though, we could be here all week.

also, actual really unpopular opinion incoming: nostalgia is the only thing that makes people view genealogy gen 1 and blazing blade as good stories but fates birthright as a bad story. the latter is cut from the exact same cloth - increasingly desperate use of emotional gut punches to conceal from the player that this storyline has gone off the rails and fell off the cliff for a while now. all three even have occasionally good writing for a handful of characters to further convince the player this journey has been worth it (to varying extents, which i guess is why fates birthright doesn't have the same benefit of doubt - it IS a more scant occurence there as opposed to blazing blade).

of course (and the unpopular opinions keep coming), the journey IS more worth it for the former two, not because of nostalgia, but because their stories are continued at genealogy gen 2 and binding blade, which, while more straightforward and not devoid of flaws, both are better at telling their stories without making me go "but FOR WHY".

(i do enjoy the genealogy gen 1 story though, as messed up as it is. i even wish it had committed a bit more fully to its final fantasy tactics-esque "you will never have a hope of understanding even half of the behind-the-scenes mess" aspirations.)

Edited November 22, 2020 by Axie

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Axie said:

lmao you are not wrong! not the time to start dragging the blazing blade storyline though, we could be here all week.

also, actual really unpopular opinion incoming: nostalgia is the only thing that makes people view genealogy gen 1 and blazing blade as good stories but fates birthright as a bad story. the latter is cut from the exact same cloth - increasingly desperate use of emotional gut punches to conceal from the player that this storyline has gone off the rails and fell off the cliff for a while now. all three even have occasionally good writing for a handful of characters to further convince the player this journey has been worth it (to varying extents, which i guess is why fates birthright doesn't have the same benefit of doubt - it IS a more scant occurence there as opposed to blazing blade).

of course (and the unpopular opinions keep coming), the journey IS more worth it for the former two, not because of nostalgia, but because their stories are continued at genealogy gen 2 and binding blade, which, while more straightforward and not devoid of flaws, both are better at telling their stories without making me go "but FOR WHY".

What if I like the story of Genealogy Gen 1 but think Blazing Blade is trash? Can't really chalk diverging opinions like that on nostalgia.

[Axie]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

What if I like the story of Genealogy Gen 1 but think Blazing Blade is trash? Can't really chalk diverging opinions like that on nostalgia.

as i just added to my post, genealogy gen 1 does have a "the appeal IS the fact it's utterly inscrutable" charm to it. it doesn't go nearly all the way with it, and also i don't think that's why the fandom at large enjoys it, but it's there. i enjoy it too. blazing blade is also not without its redeeming features (and neither is fates birthright to be honest - as i said before, until roughly the ice tribe it was shaping up to be better planned than either one of those two).

[Sooks]

9 minutes ago, Axie said:

(and neither is fates birthright to be honest - as i said before, until roughly the ice tribe it was shaping up to be better planned than either one of those two).

I find it funny that this line also applies to Conquest.

[Jotari]

21 minutes ago, Axie said:

as i just added to my post, genealogy gen 1 does have a "the appeal IS the fact it's utterly inscrutable" charm to it. it doesn't go nearly all the way with it, and also i don't think that's why the fandom at large enjoys it, but it's there. i enjoy it too. blazing blade is also not without its redeeming features (and neither is fates birthright to be honest - as i said before, until roughly the ice tribe it was shaping up to be better planned than either one of those two).

I find Birthright is a bit like Binding Blade. It tries so little it's difficult to feel passionate about it at all. Though I do enjoy dissecting Binding Blade a bit more, which is probably down to nostalgia.

[joevar]

they (dunno who) gave Lyn short underpants in warrior

13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I find Birthright is a bit like Binding Blade. It tries so little it's difficult to feel passionate about it at all. Though I do enjoy dissecting Binding Blade a bit more, which is probably down to nostalgia.

if we take into account that Binding Blade is scrapped from a failed project, moved into new console (with new engine?) then doing little and potentially playing it safe , it turns out decently enough i say. dunno it fits into popular or unpopular opinion

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by joevar

[Sooks]

15 minutes ago, joevar said:

they (dunno who) gave Lyn short underpants in warrior

Because she is a swift sword fighter from the plains and armor is very heavy. Her legs can move very freely I would imagine, thus leading to faster reactions.

[Etrurian emperor]

59 minutes ago, Axie said:

also, actual really unpopular opinion incoming: nostalgia is the only thing that makes people view genealogy gen 1 and blazing blade as good stories but fates birthright as a bad story. the latter is cut from the exact same cloth - increasingly desperate use of emotional gut punches to conceal from the player that this storyline has gone off the rails and fell off the cliff for a while now. all three even have occasionally good writing for a handful of characters to further convince the player this journey has been worth it (to varying extents, which i guess is why fates birthright doesn't have the same benefit of doubt - it IS a more scant occurence there as opposed to blazing blade).

I don't think that's quite the case. There's a significant difference between Blazing Blade and Birthright. 

In Blazing Blade things actually happen. In Birthright very little actually happens before you reach Garon's castle.

Blazing Blade is a story that evolves and escalates. Villains acts and heroes react. There are multiple little mini arcs with different factions driving the plot. Each little arc is an escalation from the previous and sets the stage for the next arc. Whatever flaws Blazing Blade had its story was rarely uneventful. 

Birthright is not such a story. Its one long road trip from Hoshido to Garon's castle with most stage merely being an excuse to fight along the way. A lot of stages feel like filler where Corrin and company are just randomly attacked on the road. Even when something more substantial happens like Zola taking over Izumo and impersonating its leader to assassinate Corrin it only lasts for a single stage. Every time when finally something substantial happens in birthright its solved immediately and the group travels on to the next filler mission. Even little subplots like Ryoma being missing feels more like the search for a ''Mcuffin'' rather than a plotpoint in its own right. Blazing Blade has some filler missions too but most chapters actually serve a thematic point.

My problem with Birthright was never that it was messy, my problem was that barely anything happened. And Birthright has the bad fortune of being burdened by Fates as a whole being a mess. It has the worst of both worlds, an unexciting plot where barely anything happens until the end and all the messy baggage that comes with being part of Fateslandia. 

I'd also argue that nostalgia isn't really a factor for Blazing Blade to begin with since there's been a pretty significant backlash against its story for some time now. 

[Murozaki]

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion but based on previous FE discussion-focused places i assume it is: "Moral Gray" and "Realism" when it comes to Fire Emblem are both very overvalued.

When it comes to the topic of "Moral Gray", i feel the FE fandom overlooks the fact that usually when it comes to villains' and antagonists' motivations and actions (Since they are the types of characters most talked about when this topic comes up from past experieces), the most important thing is that said motivations and actions complement the greater picture of what the story is about. Which also extends i feel to how the FE fandom talks about characters in all honesty, too much talking about characters and individual story elements in a vacuum and not about how said characters and elements fit into the greater puzzle.

When it comes to "Realism", i don't feel that people should just shut up because it's fantasy or anything like that, but i do feel people should understand that verisimilitude is completely personal. And that what can be considered "Realistic" for one person could very easily not apply to someone else, and also that sometimes disregarding the "Plausible" and "Realistic" can work better depending on the story.

[null]

2 hours ago, Samz707 said:

For Lyn, it doesn't quite bother me considering how she's just a Nomad on the plains, so her just wearing essentially a kinda dress and lack of armor makes sense, she's pretty much a civilian. (and oh boy, do her stats reflect the fact she's not wearing armor.)

And this is basically what I was going for when I talked about Lyn's design being both at least somewhat practical and stylish without really being fanservice, IMO.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Hard to be intrusive to the storyline when Lyn's not intrusive to the storyline!

Spittin' straight facts here. Going back to the idea of male characters usurping the place of female characters, FE7 is a prime example of something like this happening. Once Lyn's 10 chapters are done, she becomes irrelevant to the rest of the game. Which is unfortunate, since I actually liked her the most out of the three lords.

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

How is Severa otaku pandering? I mean I get that she’s a 2nd gen character but I’m not sure that really counts...

I think he means simply because she's a tsundere. Although I personally think of otaku pandering as more along the lines of what objectified characters (typically female) are. That kind of objectification is inherently sexist, in my opinion, especially since male characters on the whole don't get the same treatment nearly as much.

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

The fact that I never noticed until other people started talking about it, after I had played the entire game and used her, says enough about how she was handled in my eyes.

Exactly. Lyn's design is attractive, but is only one aspect of her as a character. Her personality and (minimal) role in the story are the most memorable aspect of who she is, rather than her design, as it should be.

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

Yeah that scene makes me cringe, they just had to zoom in on every area. This is a Fire Emblem not a.... different type of game.

otaku pandering intensifies

Again, stuff like that really has no place in what FE is meant to be, IMO.

48 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

My problem with Birthright was never that it was messy, my problem was that barely anything happened. And Birthright has the bad fortune of being burdened by Fates as a whole being a mess. It has the worst of both worlds, an unexciting plot where barely anything happens until the end and all the messy baggage that comes with being part of Fateslandia. 

Agreed. Among the mediocre/awful mess that Fates' story was, Birthright fell into a very unmemorable place of being painfully bland, despite being the least offensive of the three, so to speak. Instead of being ambitious, it felt like a retread of a retread of a concept. By the time I was in the final stretch of BR, I didn't even care about what happened. That doesn't really reflect well on how the writers presented their ideas, I'd say.

[Ottservia]

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

How is Severa otaku pandering? I mean I get that she’s a 2nd gen character but I’m not sure that really counts...

She’s a very stereotypical tsundere and falls into a lot of common tropes of the archetype. A lot of her tsun-dere moments in her A supports can be considered Otaku pandering cause all those are are tsundere blush moments. They’re well written moments mind you but moments all the same.

[Sooks]

36 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

Spittin' straight facts here. Going back to the idea of male characters usurping the place of female characters, FE7 is a prime example of something like this happening. Once Lyn's 10 chapters are done, she becomes irrelevant to the rest of the game. Which is unfortunate, since I actually liked her the most out of the three lords.

I would disagree with the phrasing of this. The male characters are not usurping anything of Lyn’s, she is so incredibly irrelevant in Hector’s and Eliwood’s story that she doesn’t really have anything to do with the plot. The story would not be affected if she were cut out entirely, it’s like the writers made her for a tutorial and then went “oh heck! We should put her in the main campaign!” she doesn’t even get a legendary weapon, just a spare Athos has lying around with a cool name. xD

36 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

That kind of objectification is inherently sexist, in my opinion, especially since male characters on the whole don't get the same treatment nearly as much.

You clearly aren’t very experienced with webcomics...

I don’t think that sort of thing is inherently sexist, but I think that it has sexist origins, i.e. men being “dominant” in society and thus the ones in charge which sort of created this societal view, I guess you can call it, where females are way more about beauty and looks than men are, if that makes sense.

And some series specifically know that you’re watching for female fan service and that’s the whole point, naturally.

34 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

She’s a very stereotypical tsundere and falls into a lot of common tropes of the archetype. A lot of her tsun-dere moments in her A supports can be considered Otaku pandering cause all those are are tsundere blush moments. They’re well written moments mind you but moments all the same.

Well written otaku pandering is rare xD

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Well written otaku pandering is rare xD

Not as rare as you might think. You’re not nearly as much of a weeb as I am so you haven’t seen the things I’ve seen.

[null]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

I would disagree with the phrasing of this. The male characters are not usurping anything of Lyn’s, she is so incredibly irrelevant in Hector’s and Eliwood’s story that she doesn’t really have anything to do with the plot. The story would not be affected if she were cut out entirely, it’s like the writers made her for a tutorial and then went “oh heck! We should put her in the main campaign!” she doesn’t even get a legendary weapon, just a spare Athos has lying around with a cool name. xD

Fair enough. Good point. xD

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

You clearly aren’t very experienced with webcomics...

I don’t think that sort of thing is inherently sexist, but I think that it has sexist origins, i.e. men being “dominant” in society and thus the ones in charge which sort of created this societal view, I guess you can call it, where females are way more about beauty and looks than men are, if that makes sense.

And some series specifically know that you’re watching for female fan service and that’s the whole point, naturally.

I should have clarified. I meant within FE as a series. And within that context, female characters are overall given that treatment more than male characters are.

Of course, there are series made for female fanservice, and I'm certainly nobody to say that they should or shouldn't exist. I just think it has little to no place (for either gender) in FE.

[Sooks]

4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Not as rare as you might think. You’re not nearly as much of a weeb as I am so you haven’t seen the things I’ve seen.

xD

I’ll take your word for it.

3 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

I should have clarified. I meant within FE as a series. And within that context, female characters are overall given that treatment more than male characters are.

Oh, right. Fair enough I suppose.

Although with Fates specifically literally every male character is given the same body type with rippling muscles and abs as seen in the hot springs, and some designs like Odin or Kaze very much want you to notice but I digress. They at least have clothes on.

3 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

Of course, there are series made for female fanservice, and I'm certainly nobody to say that they should or shouldn't exist. I just think it has little to no place (for either gender) in FE.

Oh, I agree with that last point!

And I wouldn’t say they shouldn’t exist because I think they’re harmless, but I’m also nobody to say anything about it so...

[null]

3 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Oh, right. Fair enough I suppose.

Although with Fates specifically literally every male character is given the same body type with rippling muscles and abs as seen in the hot springs, and some designs like Odin or Kaze very much want you to notice but I digress. They at least have clothes on.

Yeah, and tbh I don't care for fanservice like that either. The emphasis should be on the story and characters themselves, not their physical attributes. That often points to a lack of substance, IMO.

3 minutes ago, Sooks said:

And I wouldn’t say they shouldn’t exist because I think they’re harmless, but I’m also nobody to say anything about it so...

Exactly. There's an audience for games like that, and that's fine.

And the bolded statement is oBjEcTiVeLy wrong because that's your opinion and you're entitled to have it. 🙂

Edited November 22, 2020 by twilitfalchion

[Sooks]

4 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

And the bolded statement is oBjEcTiVeLy wrong because that's your opinion and you're entitled to have it. 🙂

When you said that, were you not referring to a lack of experience with the genre?

[null]

Just now, Sooks said:

When you said that, were you not referring to a lack of experience with the genre?

No, I just meant that there are games/media for something like that, and they have an audience. I really wasn't talking about anything else.