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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

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2 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Secondly, a near identical male equivalent, then this neat little lore tidbit becomes something of a useless complication. Females have "Class X" and males have "Class X but Y." It also takes away the opportunity to have a more distinct male-exclusive or flying class instead. Gameplay comes first, after all.

Thirdly, there's nothing wrong with limitations. They're usually pretty good for games, actually.

This contradicts your last post. You're fine keeping the most flight access female only and use giving the males something else exclusive as a defense, but you said you're against other gender-locked classes?

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Just now, X-Naut said:

This contradicts your last post. You're fine keeping the most flight access female only and use giving the males something else exclusive as a defense, but you said you're against other gender-locked classes?

I am against other gender locked classes. However, if you're going to have a male-exclusive class to "compensate" for their lack of access to pegasus knight, it should at least be something distinct instead of just being a male pegasus knight.

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Personally, I don't mind gender-locked classes; there being a reason to exist or not. Though I do like there is an explanation for the Pegasus Knight case. Also don't mind if there's not a 1:1 balance to it.

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On 1/17/2021 at 1:17 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

I think there's somewhat of a double standards between the genders in Fire Emblem. Roles that are considered acceptable for one gender tends to get a lot of flack in another gender. 

Ashe is generally well liked but you have a subset of people who consider him boring since he's just cute and wholesome all the time without being terribly interesting. However in the same house you have Annette who's in the exact same boat, but for who its never addressed as a problem. 

Ricken and Hayato were hated for their whole ''I am not a kid!'' gimmick, but as soon as that archetype was used for a girl it suddenly became cute and endearing.

And you have the Corrin's. Both are controversial but I strongly suspect the male one gets dismissed as a wimp because them being sensitive and naive is considered more acceptable for a girl then it is for a guy. I think the likes of Ignatz and Siegbert are in the same boat where their softness and anxiety gets scoffed at while its celebrated in the likes of Marianne. 

 

I actually thought I was the only one that noticed this. It's annoyingly blatant when it comes to the Corrin's, as well as the Byleth's. I saw this meme exaggerating the whole double standard where it was a pic of male Corrin and a guy saying that he was annoying, then the bottom half was female Corrin and the same guy  s i m p i n g  for her cause you know, she has boobs (words from the meme). I even saw tweets where people say female-Byleth is much more expressive than male-Byleth, when like literally they're the same exact person.

It's irritating to me because there's no difference between the two other than their class-access and people they can marry--but that's moreso in terms of gameplay, and even still it's relatively minor. Their character is exactly the same.

14 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't support gender locked classes...except for Pegasus Knight (and by extension, it's promotions). The idea that only females can ride pegasi is one of the few interesting and distinctive aspects of Fire Emblem settings. It's not a part of the series identity in the way permadeath is, but I still kinda like it.

I feel like gender locked classes just severely limit player optimization regardless of "traditional lore." Pegasi only allowing females to ride them was a throwaway line in a past game, but I couldn't really justify gender-locked classes in any game from Fates onward (ngl, I found the concept of it pointless even for past games). Like there's no mention of why Pegasus Knights should only be female or why Dark Mages/Brawlers should only be male in 3H, so why keep this restricting mechanic when it was removed in Fates?

idk maybe I'm just a bitter gay male poc that wants my mByleth to ride a pegasus while married to claude, but das just me lmao

  

7 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I am against other gender locked classes. However, if you're going to have a male-exclusive class to "compensate" for their lack of access to pegasus knight, it should at least be something distinct instead of just being a male pegasus knight.

But ... what's wrong with a male Pegasus Knight?

Edited by Tenma

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3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I must disagree.

Firstly, there are many options for male units to reclass into that don't fly. Depending on what specific reclassing system you look at, most units can't become fliers anyway.

Secondly, a near identical male equivalent, then this neat little lore tidbit becomes something of a useless complication. Females have "Class X" and males have "Class X but Y." It also takes away the opportunity to have a more distinct male-exclusive or flying class instead. Gameplay comes first, after all.

Thirdly, there's nothing wrong with limitations. They're usually pretty good for games, actually.

1) we are talking about fliers, though. the reclass system used is irrelevant in this argument, and in the most recent one (3H), everyone can access anything anyway.

2) it doesn't need to be the exact same as a pegasus knight (though i wouldn't even mind that). i just think it's stupid when females can go pegasus or wyvern (two classes with wildly different functions) to fly, and then males just have to go wyvern.

3) a fire emblem game with reclassing AND gender-locked classes at the same time is needlessly limited. limitations aren't always good at all, specially if they are not consistent. if the game wants the player to have choices, then actually give them choices instead of these arbitrary limitations.

Edited by Axie

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1 hour ago, Axie said:

1) we are talking about fliers, though. the reclass system used is irrelevant in this argument, and in the most recent one (3H), everyone can access anything anyway.

2) it doesn't need to be the exact same as a pegasus knight (though i wouldn't even mind that). i just think it's stupid when females can go pegasus or wyvern (two classes with wildly different functions) to fly, and then males just have to go wyvern.

3) a fire emblem game with reclassing AND gender-locked classes at the same time is needlessly limited. limitations aren't always good at all, specially if they are not consistent. if the game wants the player to have choices, then actually give them choices instead of these arbitrary limitations.

2. so what your take if wyvern strictly for male while retaining exclusivity of pegasus for female? is that not acceptable?

but i know already in most cases wyvern is superior in gameplay so locking one with another is satisfactory

4 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Personally, I don't mind gender-locked classes; there being a reason to exist or not. Though I do like there is an explanation for the Pegasus Knight case. Also don't mind if there's not a 1:1 balance to it.

yep, its tiring to have everything in 1:1 balance imo. unless the setting is modern day warfrare then its bound to have something gender specific thing.

--------

and why i dont see complaint(s) about why theres no male witch huh?

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1 hour ago, joevar said:

2. so what your take if wyvern strictly for male while retaining exclusivity of pegasus for female? is that not acceptable?

but i know already in most cases wyvern is superior in gameplay so locking one with another is satisfactory

yep, its tiring to have everything in 1:1 balance imo. unless the setting is modern day warfrare then its bound to have something gender specific thing.

If wyverns were restricted for males, then female units would once again be missing out on an axe-focused class, and male units still miss out on a lance class. It's not even balance, it's just restrictive. I don't see what's so tiring about it, guess Fates must have been a marathon lmao.

I can see why wyverns are superior, and they definitely can be, but gender-locking Pegasus Knight still prevents certain units from reaching their best. Taking Awakening for example, Dark Falcon and Galeforce are locked to female units--and we all know how ffffin broken Galeforce is--so male units have no access to this skill and reaching higher gameplay potential. Then in 3H, Pegasus Knight being locked to females means all of the Swift Strikes users (Sylvain, Ferdinand, and Seteth) can't enjoy a +20% speed boost and Lancefaire-boosted Swift Strikes.

1 hour ago, joevar said:

and why i dont see complaint(s) about why theres no male witch huh?

See, witch wasn't brought up, but now it is. For example,: Leo and Odin. Leo and Odin would have highly appreciated a male equivalent for witch, since, while Leo is good on his own, he tends to lack the speed to double--which is what witch can fix. And even if either Leo and Odin were to fall behind on combat (Odin being very prone), they could provide utility with warp. But witch is a DLC class anyway, so it's not an option for everybody.

And I guess Three Houses' iteration of witch is Gremory--and we all know how much that messed up Linhardt.

Edited by Tenma

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3 hours ago, Tenma said:

I feel like gender locked classes just severely limit player optimization regardless of "traditional lore." Pegasi only allowing females to ride them was a throwaway line in a past game, but I couldn't really justify gender-locked classes in any game from Fates onward (ngl, I found the concept of it pointless even for past games). Like there's no mention of why Pegasus Knights should only be female or why Dark Mages/Brawlers should only be male in 3H, so why keep this restricting mechanic when it was removed in Fates?

MalePegasusKnight.jpg

We see male Pegasus Knights as early as Mystery of the Emblem and in Thracia 776, its said Pegasus are rarely ridden by men, not never ridden by men.

3 hours ago, Tenma said:

If wyverns were restricted for males, then female units would once again be missing out on an axe-focused class, and male units still miss out on a lance class. It's not even balance, it's just restrictive. I don't see what's so tiring about it, guess Fates must have been a marathon lmao.

Axe using Wyverns is actually a recent development to add more axe classes.

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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26 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

We see male Pegasus Knights as early as Mystery of the Emblem and in Thracia 776, its said Pegasus are rarely ridden by men, not never ridden by men.

See, I get that. Even Michalis was implied as a Pegasus Knight, since he was a Wyvern Rider/Dracoknight which was a promotion from Pegasus Knight. But every game afterwards, there have been no playable male Pegasus Knights until Fates, where Subaki mentions in his support with Selena that the pegasi of Hoshido are of a different breed. Gaiden/SoV and Awakening even prevents male characters from reclassing into Pegasus Knight.

26 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Axe using Wyverns is actually a recent development to add more axe classes.

But that still doesn't change my point about whether or not gender-locked classes should exist lol

Edited by Tenma

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9 minutes ago, Tenma said:

See, I get that. Even Michalis was implied as a Pegasus Knight, since he was a Wyvern Rider/Dracoknight which was a promotion from Pegasus Knight. But every game afterwards, there have been no playable male Pegasus Knights until Fates, where Subaki mentions in his support with Selena that the pegasi of Hoshido are of a different breed. Gaiden/SoV and Awakening even prevents male characters from reclassing into Pegasus Knight.

For reference, there are sprites for playable male pegasus knights and briefly used sprites for enemy female Pegasus Knights in Mystery of the Emblem. There's also internal data labeling the enemy Pegasus Knights male and having them dismount to the male knight, whilst also preventing them from using female exclusive equipment.

9 minutes ago, Tenma said:

But every game afterwards, there have been no playable male Pegasus Knights until Fates, where Subaki mentions in his support with Selena that the pegasi of Hoshido are of a different breed.

The current writers seem to have forgot Male Pegasus Knights  were never ruled out, just labeled rare.

Shouzou Kaga who made the first five games has a similar class to Pegasus Knight in his latest indie game and whilst nearly all of them, there is a single exception within the game. That was the impression I got with Pegasus Knights, male riders would be rare but not impossible. Same for female Fighters and Pirates.

9 minutes ago, Tenma said:

Gaiden/SoV and Awakening even prevents male characters from reclassing into Pegasus Knight.

Males can't reclass to Arcanists/Cantors and Females cannot reclass to Cavalier/Knight/Archer in SoV, but we know these all exist.

Awakening can't even remember what the Fire Emblem does, so why would you except it to remember obscure lore about Pegasi?

9 minutes ago, Tenma said:

But that still doesn't change my point about whether or not gender-locked classes should exist lol

I'm not denying that, but the Fire Emblem often has some conservative stances, you've read about the reluctance of the writers to have female villains for example, right?

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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45 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

For reference, there are sprites for playable male pegasus knights and briefly used sprites for enemy female Pegasus Knights in Mystery of the Emblem. There's also internal data labeling the enemy Pegasus Knights male and having them dismount to the male knight, whilst also preventing them from using female exclusive equipment.

I honestly appreciate the inclusion of male pegasus knights in Mystery of the Emblem, but in recent games, it's just not like that right now. I'm not saying male Pegasus Knights never existed, but I'm saying in the current/newer games, we can't have the freedom of reclassing whoever we wantto whatever we want unfortunately.

45 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Males can't reclass to Arcanists/Cantors and Females cannot reclass to Cavalier/Knight/Archer in SoV, but we know these all exist.

Awakening can't even remember what the Fire Emblem does, so why would you except it to remember obscure lore about Pegasi?

I mean, to be fair, you're right, and the reclassing system in SoV was really unique, so I guess it was a poor example. But in Awakening and Three Houses, the restriction of men from Pegasus Knight/Troubadour/Gremory and women from Fighter/Dark Mage (3H)/Grappler was annoyingly limiting. Like bro, why can't my mRobin slaayyyyyy on a dark pegasus when fRobin can? Why can't fByleth 👏throw👏hands👏 when mByleth can?

Edited by Tenma

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2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

MalePegasusKnight.jpg

We see male Pegasus Knights as early as Mystery of the Emblem and in Thracia 776, its said Pegasus are rarely ridden by men, not never ridden by men.

Axe using Wyverns is actually a recent development to add more axe classes.

I would have called it recent five years ago, but wyvern wielding axes has been the default since Radiant Dawn back in 2008 (13 years ago now, feel old?) They were a promoted addition in Path of Radiance, but as the most related weapon to the class, Radiant Dawn is the one that made it their weapon at base. If anything we've had a (very) mild move away from axe wyverns with Seteth being a lance inclined unit and a wyvern rider in the most recent game.

Edited by Jotari

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3 hours ago, Tenma said:

guess Fates must have been a marathon lmao

yes, i just skip it. lol.

when i say i dislike fates, i dont mean i beat it then trash talk it. i just, stay away from it to the best of my ability. (not like those modern haters of anything who's actually more dedicated than standard fans)

1 hour ago, Tenma said:

we can't have the freedom of reclassing whoever we wantto whatever we want unfortunately

you still say that after 3H ? really? yes2 i know it has restrictive gender locked class. but literally every unit is able to reclass which make every class is up to debate which is canon unless stated otherwise. (those unique clothes is the only small nod, but still not definitive fact)

3 hours ago, Tenma said:

And I guess Three Houses' iteration of witch is Gremory--and we all know how much that messed up Linhardt

i dunno, please elaborate for future reference

3 hours ago, Tenma said:

But witch is a DLC class anyway, so it's not an option for everybody

witch appear several times in SoV altho not playable.

------------------------------------------------------

maybe someone in IS thought that pegasus is  more feminine and suited to female?

Edited by joevar

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1 hour ago, Tenma said:

Like bro, why can't my mRobin slaayyyyyy on a dark pegasus when fRobin can? Why can't fByleth 👏throw👏hands👏 when mByleth can?

to give you option and benefit of choosing, so theres a little bit difference between M! and F! byleth, hehe.

 

Edited by joevar

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4 minutes ago, joevar said:

yes, i just skip it. lol.

when i say i dislike fates, i dont mean i beat it then trash talk it. i just, stay away from it to the best of my ability. (not like those modern haters of anything who's actually more dedicated than standard fans)

I mean, I know Fates is the butt of all the jokes in the FE community, but I personally really like Fates. I can even go as far as saying it's probably one of my faves--the unrestrictive class system definitely plays a part. Try give it a shot?

5 minutes ago, joevar said:

you still say that after 3H ? really? yes2 i know it has restrictive gender locked class. but literally every unit is able to reclass which make every class is up to debate which is canon unless stated otherwise. (those unique clothes is the only small nod, but still not definitive fact)

Yes, I do LOL. While yeah, 3H does offer an incredibly free reclassing system--the gender lock is still there to limit the player, and for what reason? Catherine is a female unit with a boon in brawling, but oop she a woman? Guess she can't be a brawler (DLC aside). Lysithea and Edelgard are two out of three (non-DLC) units that use Dark Magic, but oOP they female too, so they can't be Dark Mages.

10 minutes ago, joevar said:

i dunno, please elaborate for future reference

And Linhardt? He got the boons in Faith and Reason, so Gremory would be the perfect option for him, yeah? But ... he a dude. So double spell uses for both Reason and Faith magic are out of the question for him.

What sucks even more is that the gender-lock is completely arbitrary--there's nothing in 3H that even explains why only men could be Dark Mages/Bishops (as if Tharja didn't exist) and why only women could be Pegasus Knights. I get that the whole pegasus lore thing was explained in older games (not 3H tho), but if it was removed before, why bring it back? 

14 minutes ago, joevar said:

maybe someone in IS thought that pegasus is  more feminine and suited to female?

Ehhh but if you look at the myth of Pegasus in Greek mythology, he was ridden by a Bellerophon--a man HAHA

17 minutes ago, joevar said:

witch appear several times in SoV altho not playable.

See, that's the thing tho. If they're not playable, they don't affect the player.

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58 minutes ago, joevar said:

to give you option and benefit of choosing, so theres a little bit difference between M! and F! byleth, hehe.

 

it's not giving me options. it's removing me options. the only difference between a male and female avatar should be their gender, which in itself already affects supports and the like. gender-locked classes are stupid, bring actually very little flavor to gameplay, and should be abolished forever as long as there's reclassing.

(i don't it so much it in games without reclassing because... my other women can't become pegasus knights either, so meh)

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55 minutes ago, Tenma said:

Ehhh but if you look at the myth of Pegasus in Greek mythology, he was ridden by a Bellerophon--a man HAHA

to be honest, i actually look it up in wiki or other site before commenting that. but its greek mithyology, and japan like to adapt it in their own style. but that stretching a little bit. gotta ask the original person/team why would they put only female on pegasus. or maybe they mistook unicorn lore in some story with pegasus?

55 minutes ago, Tenma said:

but if it was removed before, why bring it back? 

that would be the million dollar question

55 minutes ago, Tenma said:

Yes, I do LOL. While yeah, 3H does offer an incredibly free reclassing system--the gender lock is still there to limit the player, and for what reason? Catherine is a female unit with a boon in brawling, but oop she a woman? Guess she can't be a brawler (DLC aside). Lysithea and Edelgard are two out of three (non-DLC) units that use Dark Magic, but oOP they female too, so they can't be Dark Mages.

yeah, seems like the freedom of choosing biting their own hand. or the boon and its opposite is actually assigned randomly without too much thought 

10 minutes ago, Axie said:

t's not giving me options. it's removing me options. the only difference between a male and female avatar should be their gender, which in itself already affects supports and the like. gender-locked classes are stupid, bring actually very little flavor to gameplay, and should be abolished forever as long as there's reclassing.

avatar in FE is not even a good self insert, far from it imo. so the difference should be more than their gender and support. if its a self insert avatar that can changes the story through their action sure, it should be 100% identical since the difference should be the player not the character

or to put it another way, if nothing major changes (support is support, which is just a difference in ending slideshow that you wouldnt see untill the end anyway) you can just pick which byleth have the class you want

Edited by joevar

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Fates's approach of giving every character an individual set of reclass option should have completely and irrevocably obsoleted any form of gender-locked classes.

I know that 3H didn't carry over that approach and I can respect that - but if you want to allow silly builds similar to Dark Mage Cord or Warrior Yubello, why would you stop halfway and forbid Pegasus Knight Dedue because he's a boy?

I'm generally of the mindset that a strategy game needs some forms of restrictions in order to be a strategy game (because if your choices don't impact your chances/ease of success, those choices don't really matter), but a gender lock is just such a lame way of doing it. There's a billion better ways to prevent the player from going "wyvern printer go brrrrrrr" (or whatever the most meta class is) - even the simple "X flyers recruited --> can only reclass until you have X+1 flyers" in Shadow Dragon; character-based restrictions à la Fates; limited access to the strongest classes' equipment; an opportunity cost attached to swapping into different classes and so on.

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7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

We see male Pegasus Knights as early as Mystery of the Emblem and in Thracia 776, its said Pegasus are rarely ridden by men, not never ridden by men.

That was more because Kaga had a problem with the player hitting girls... despite giving the player several girls to fight with.

But they really ought to go with that bit. Even if most males don't have access to the class... you know, that could be interesting for a "free but not completely free" reclassing system: instead of a small set of classes a character gets to play with, there's a small set of classes they can't access. Then we could have pseudo genderlocks that leave room for a few exceptions to the norm.

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7 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

That was more because Kaga had a problem with the player hitting girls... despite giving the player several girls to fight with.

Seems he got over that since he made us hit Ishtar plenty of times. Jugdral in general had a decent amount of female bosses. 

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11 hours ago, LJ_Tenma said:

I actually thought I was the only one that noticed this. It's annoyingly blatant when it comes to the Corrin's, as well as the Byleth's. I saw this meme exaggerating the whole double standard where it was a pic of male Corrin and a guy saying that he was annoying, then the bottom half was female Corrin and the same guy  s i m p i n g  for her cause you know, she has boobs (words from the meme). I even saw tweets where people say female-Byleth is much more expressive than male-Byleth, when like literally they're the same exact person.

It's irritating to me because there's no difference between the two other than their class-access and people they can marry--but that's moreso in terms of gameplay, and even still it's relatively minor. Their character is exactly the same.

 

I think it's more because Female Byleth has more of a stotic smile on her face as opposed to male byleth's completely neutral expression.

Also I never got the "They're stotic!" thing when they're literally displaying a sense of humor with Sothis/Alois right from the start.

21 hours ago, Axie said:

i only support this notion if there is a nearly equivalent male exclusive flying class for gameplay purposes. gameplay comes first, and males having to go wyvern if they want to fly is limiting in most games that allow reclassing.

Nah, fantasy Cavalier on a fantasy Honey Badger, as a slower super deadly mount.

Edited by Samz707

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4 hours ago, ping said:

I'm generally of the mindset that a strategy game needs some forms of restrictions in order to be a strategy game (because if your choices don't impact your chances/ease of success, those choices don't really matter), but a gender lock is just such a lame way of doing it. There's a billion better ways to prevent the player from going "wyvern printer go brrrrrrr" (or whatever the most meta class is) - even the simple "X flyers recruited --> can only reclass until you have X+1 flyers" in Shadow Dragon; character-based restrictions à la Fates; limited access to the strongest classes' equipment; an opportunity cost attached to swapping into different classes and so on.

Agreed.

As annoying as I found the weapon penalties in Fates (like -2 str after use, -10 avoid when equipped, etc), I wouldn't mind them coming back if that meant removing the gender-lock. At least that way there'd be some form of strategic restriction without the restriction being placed on gender. But I understand the penalties were placed due to the fact that Fates lacked weapon durability. I would have even preferred weapon-locking classes again over gender-locking, since Three Houses freely allows any class to equip any weapon (not including magic).

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2 hours ago, Samz707 said:

I think it's more because Female Byleth has more of a stotic smile on her face as opposed to male byleth's completely neutral expression.

I will hold by the opinion that F!Byleth’s design is better than M!Byleth’s simply for this reason. F!Byleth’s design just better fits the whole kuudere thing they’ve got going for them anyway.

Edited by Ottservia

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14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I will hold by the opinion that F!Byleth’s design is better than M!Byleth’s simply for this reason. F!Byleth’s design just better fits the whole kuudere thing they’ve got going for them anyway.

I think it's more how Byleth is paradoxically a complete blank slate and somewhat of a character and it just swings wildly depending on the scene.

Sometimes Byleth is ment to be emotionally dead, the other scene they're clearly showing emotions of at least one kind, it's more that Byleth is frankly a mess.

Sometimes they're seemingly ment to really care about the students and then they're letting Ferdinand almost get himself killed in one of their supports.

Edited by Samz707

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15 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

I think it's more how Byleth is paradoxically a complete blank slate and somewhat of a character and it just swings wildly depending on the scene.

Sometimes Byleth is ment to be emotionally dead, the other scene they're clearly showing emotions of at least one kind, it's more that Byleth is frankly a mess.

Like I said they’re a kuudere. That’s kind of how these kinds if characters work. They start off mostly deadpan and show little emotion but begin to open up and show those emotions overtime due to varying circumstances. 

 

16 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Sometimes they're seemingly ment to really care about the students and then they're letting Ferdinand almost get himself killed in one of their supports.

Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t the dialogue options in those supports lean more towards trying to convince Ferdinand to not charge in recklessly and get himself killed.

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