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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

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4 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

The success of TH campaign is locked behind doing monastery chores – I will die on this hill until @lenticular provides us with information on her monastery less run.

Monastery less is possible and is done for most speed runs. Now if we start talking maddening I'm not so sure, but I'm pretty sure Normal/Hard its easy enough.

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22 minutes ago, Gannondworf13 said:

Monastery less is possible and is done for most speed runs. Now if we start talking maddening I'm not so sure, but I'm pretty sure Normal/Hard its easy enough.

According to this website: Fire Emblem: Three Houses - speedrun.com, all speedruns are done on Normal.

I watched a fraction of kirbymastahs video - that was not done without monastery, as characters were recruited (Shamir, Sylvain via monastery, Lysithea via chapter 14) and quests were being carried out.

Which reminds me - does that mean that in a truly monastery less run, both the Forge and Battalion Guild would be unusable, as they are locked behind quests? Or does the game not let you skip in this case?

These speedruns also have you sacrifice almost all your starting units, essentially turning it into a Byleth solo, with your other lord playing chicken until WL is achieved. That seems far removed from normal play, but w/e floats your boat.

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5 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Which reminds me - does that mean that in a truly monastery less run, both the Forge and Battalion Guild would be unusable, as they are locked behind quests? Or does the game not let you skip in this case?

The quest that unlocks the Battalion Guild is forced/unskippable. The only unskippable monastery quests are the ones from Rhea to meet the house leaders and choose your house, the one from Jeralt to grab the tactics guide from his room that unlocks your first three battalions, and the one from Jeritza to unlock the battalion guild. Everything else can be skipped, but the game devs were really keen to make sure you knew about battalions.

 The Forge is locked behind a quest, so is unusable for all of part one. However, I believe that all basic monastery facilities unlock automatically in part two even if you haven’t done their quest, which I didn’t know until I did a no-items challenge run recently. I can’t say absolutely for certain that you can use the forge from the menu at that point, but I can’t imagine that you wouldn’t be able to.

(My no-monastery run is currently coming along nicely. I beat chapter 12 last night so will probably get to the point of being able to check this for certain today.)

Edit: I have now completed chapter 13 and can confirm 100% that the blacksmith is available via menus in part two even if you skip the monastery quest to unlock it.

Edited by lenticular
adding further information

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15 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Heroes isn't main-game quality and isn't really held to main-game standards. Besides, that Avatar is more of an Isekai self-insert protagonist and not a standard Avatar. And given how well Heroes does in terms of revenue, I'd say they may have actually succeeded.

 

I mean...when you don't know if you're going to live to see tomorrow, it makes sense to make the most of today, right? And even in war, people need something to celebrate and give them hope. I'm not saying it 100% works, but it does work better than Fates, since most of the couples don't start having children until after the war. (Chrom and possibly Robin being the exceptions.)

 

 

15 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

I have heard of people meeting some of their best friends and spouses through serving in the army, so I don’t think it’s preposterous at all for people to marry while serving the military.

Given that the setting is feudalism with nobles or people who have proven themselves through great deeds, what would be more strictly realistic would be a tonne of Game of Thrones style arranged marriages with these people to foster alliances. But really I don't demand the story be actually accurate to feudalism in this way. Let the characters have their modern perception of romance, I just ask that it be implemented in a way that works for the story being told, not bloating so much as to eclipse the actual narrative, and not being included last minute as an obligatory that gets in the way of relationships that are written to be meaningful as platonic connections. I wouldn't say I care all that much that Fire Emblem has decided to be more like a dating sim, but I can personally say for me that I feel more invested with the relationship of Quan and Ethlyn or Louise and Pent way more than anyone I pair Linhardt or Hilda up with in Three Houses.

Edited by Jotari

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8 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Personally I've never considered the premise being dropped was to send the message to convey blood not mattering. It feels like a very last minute addition when someone on the marketing team noticed players might want to romance their tsundere little brother or tomboy big sister. And I think Ryoma carries a large part of the blame for that. His behavior during the choice between the two kingdoms isn't depicted as him knowing Corrin isn't his brother either but maliciously withholding it to turn him against Nohr, nor does he try and argue that blood does not matter. Its depicted as an older brother being hurt and angry his younger brother has betrayed the family and him scoffing at the idea that the Nohrians could ever be Corrin's family. Its the Nohrians who argue blood doesn't matter but the big argument of the Hoshidan royals is about Corrin being their brother by birth even if they know that isn't the case. If this scene was written in mind with the idea of Hoshido knowing Corrin isn't their sibling it makes them incredibly two faced and duplicitous which can't be the intended idea because it never comes up again and it goes against the ''theme'' of Hoshido generally being the benevolent faction.

You ever stop to consider that Ryoma lying and intentionally deceiving Corrin to turn against Nohr is kind of the fucking point. It’s not like Ryoma is ever treated as the one in the right in regards to birthright’s story in fact I would argue he’s portrayed as mostly in the wrong and is only second to Xander in how wrong he’s supposed to be. Like the whole point of birthright’s story is that Corrin’s choice to side with Hoshido is wrong because they abandoned the trust they had with their Nohrian siblings due to surface level information they couldn’t confirm was actually true. They jumped to conclusions and abandoned their family as a result. If Corrin was supposed to be right Azura, Xander, and Elise would’ve never died because Corrin made the wrong choice. Something you need to understand in regards to Fates’s narrative is that the way the route split works is that each route is one piece of a larger story. Each route builds on each other in an ongoing narrative that doesn’t work when you evaluate them separately. Revelation’s story only works because Birthright and Conquest are there to supplement it. 

 

8 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I consider that more of an attempt at world building. Hoshido being very prim and proper, valuing ''legacies of service'' from certain noble families while Nohr is more meritocratic and willing to employ any hobo or random psychopath that is talented enough, something that gets them both the likes of Effie and the likes of Iago.  

Yeah and that feeds into the yin-yang relationship Nohr and Hoshido have which is HUGE thematic point in regards to the ideas Fates’s story is trying to explore. So it’s world building in a way that adds to the themes of the story.

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@Imuabicus I'm not going to quote all that, as otherwise this reply will be a mile long. That out of the way, onto the reply:

When I saw the Kitsune chapter and saw that a number of them could do effective damage against cavalry, I though that would be an interesting challenge given the potentially-large number of cavalry units in Conquest. That part wasn't the problem; the problem was a lot of them having an "I can only take damage on certain turns and there's nothing you can do about it" ability that was just tedious; it made the map a boring and tedious game of red-light green-light. That's not challenge; that's just tedium. Challenge encourages the player to think; tedium makes the player roll their eyes and fall asleep.

Then you're missing out on the better maps; again, chapter 12 of Crimson Flower was a particular highlight for me because of that almost rhythmic back-&-forth. It is not at all like what you described, and you yourself said you didn't play it and instead watched someone else do so. I try to avoid making any statements about the quality of something I didn't play; perhaps you should consider doing the same and avoid jumping to conclusions.

Of course I didn't; you just tacked on a link to a reddit post for something I don't disagree with; there is a lot of map reuse in Three Houses. Also, I know that Conquest doesn't have skirmishes; I was talking about Fates as a whole, just as I have been doing this entire time.

Can you please stop with the needless acronyms already? Anyway, there are plenty of useful combat arts; not just the brave ones. Just because they aren't always better than regular attacking or using a gambit doesn't mean that they're useless; situational usefulness is still usefulness, and is arguably better than always being better than the alternatives as it encourages you to think. As for battalions, they're not wasted outside of those situations; they're also useful against enemies that are in a dense group (which does appear multiple times), and accuracy and strength are improved by having other playable units nearby. As for monsters, they are more interesting than that.

Again; please stop with the needless acronyms everywhere; they make your paragraphs harder to read.

Gladly. Before Awakening, sales of FE games were never that good; after Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn both had underwhelming sales and the Shadow Dragon and Mystery of the Emblem remakes failed to do much better, Intelligent Systems considered ending Fire Emblem: if Awakening didn't sell a certain minimum number of copies, it would be the last Fire Emblem game. That knowledge that it could be the last FE game was what made the dev team decide to make Awakening a sort-of "Fire Emblem Greatest Hits version" and was the reason for a lot of its mechanics. Of course, Awakening did extremely well; thanks to a combination of decent marketing and good timing, sales of Awakening greatly exceeded all expectations, creating a massive boom in the fanbase. Intelligent Systems wanted to retain Awakening's sales numbers, but they also didn't want to alienate pre-Awakening fans. The result was a game that tried to please everyone. For just one example of the steps they took to appease everyone and how it was clear that "trying to appeal to everyone" was exactly what they were trying to do, At E3 after announcing that Fates would be split into multiple versions, one of the first things they stated was that Birthright was designed to be more like Awakening and appeal to Awakening fans, Conquest was designed to be more like the older games and appeal to fans of those games, and Revelation was meant to combine aspects of those two things.

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55 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Then you're missing out on the better maps; again, chapter 12 of Crimson Flower was a particular highlight for me because of that almost rhythmic back-&-forth. It is not at all like what you described, and you yourself said you didn't play it and instead watched someone else do so. I try to avoid making any statements about the quality of something I didn't play; perhaps you should consider doing the same and avoid jumping to conclusions.

I did indeed play all 4 routes on hard when the game came out and just recently have finished AM Maddening. BE was also the first route I played. So, I indeed know what I´m talking about, tyvm. The reason why I watched a playthrough was mostly to freshen up my memory and see if any of what you said a shred of truth to it at all. I fail to see how any sort of back and forth can ensue on this map.

Perhaps I worded my inital statement on TH maps wrongly. The maps of TH are so devoid of any strategic value, any reason to stimulate brain cells, that it has made me actively try to reduce the amount of time I spend on them – contrary to my rather completionist attitude. I am not, and will never be, a LTC player. 

 

I know that not all Combat Arts are worthless. Hence why I wrote only most of them are. Fair points on the Battalions. What more is interesting on the monsters in your opinion, because I cannot find anything in them.

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1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

You ever stop to consider that Ryoma lying and intentionally deceiving Corrin to turn against Nohr is kind of the fucking point.

I have in fact not considered that because Ryoma is depicted as an upstanding fellow and its never brought up again later. Nowhere does Ryoama come off as someone maliciously conspiring to trick Corrin into waging war against his family, nor does he apologize for having done so(well he does apologize but only for keeping secrets, not for making Corrin turn on Nohr out of falsehoods). Even a bleeding heart like Corrin would be angry if he had been manipulated into turning on his family through false information, especially if that does lead to the deaths of Elise and Xander. In fact Corrin is indeed angry that Garon engineered his trip to Hoshido under false pretences and that it killed his mother. But its fine. Corrin finds its fine. He doesn't even mention how its eerily similar to what Garon has been doing and how the blood of his siblings is directly on Ryoma's hands. 

That's probably why Makoto's stupid letters feel so alien. They have no affect on the plot even if Corrin being confronted with knowledge that he's destroying his family because a bunch of strangers lied to him should have massive repercussions. Its due to this that ''oh wait you're not blood siblings after all'' feels more cynical than thematic. 

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Like the whole point of birthright’s story is that Corrin’s choice to side with Hoshido is wrong because they abandoned the trust they had with their Nohrian siblings due to surface level information they couldn’t confirm was actually true. They jumped to conclusions and abandoned their family as a result. If Corrin was supposed to be right Azura, Xander, and Elise would’ve never died because Corrin made the wrong choice. Something you need to understand in regards to Fates’s narrative is that the way the route split works is that each route is one piece of a larger story. Each route builds on each other in an ongoing narrative that doesn’t work when you evaluate them separately. Revelation’s story only works because Birthright and Conquest are there to supplement it. 

I think such an interpretation would rob everyone but Corrin of their agency. I don't see Elise dying as a result of Corrin's choices, I see her it as due to Elise herself making the choice to tag along with Corrin. And Ryoma in turn doesn't die due to Corrin's choice but the machination of Team Garon.

Besides such a take would have unfortunate implications. Obviously no sibling dies in the Golden route and this is likely meant as something as a reward. But others still die and if we take the aforementioned interpretation then they died as a direct result of Corrin's choice. In that case it comes off as ''Good choice kiddo! You made the right choice so rather than killing your siblings we'll be killing these strangers instead''. 

And to an extend I think those implications were indeed deliberate. In Revelations its indeed the case that no one important dies and that those who do die are Corrinsexuals no one cares about. In that sense it feels more cynical than thematic. Not universe saying 'Great choice kiddo! You picked the right choice!'' but instead the devs loudly shouting ''You gave us more money so everyone you like gets a happy ending and we just killed some nobodies when the stakes needed raising!' 

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11 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I have in fact not considered that because Ryoma is depicted as an upstanding fellow and its never brought up again later. Nowhere does Ryoama come off as someone maliciously conspiring to trick Corrin into waging war against his family, nor does he apologize for having done so(well he does apologize but only for keeping secrets, not for making Corrin turn on Nohr out of falsehoods). Even a bleeding heart like Corrin would be angry if he had been manipulated into turning on his family through false information, especially if that does lead to the deaths of Elise and Xander. In fact Corrin is indeed angry that Garon engineered his trip to Hoshido under false pretences and that it killed his mother. But its fine. Corrin finds its fine. He doesn't even mention how its eerily similar to what Garon has been doing and how the blood of his siblings is directly on Ryoma's hands. 

That's probably why Makoto's stupid letters feel so alien. They have no affect on the plot even if Corrin being confronted with knowledge that he's destroying his family because a bunch of strangers lied to him should have massive repercussions. Its due to this that ''oh wait you're not blood siblings after all'' feels more cynical than thematic. 

I mean, doesn't Ryoma also at one point in Conquest pretty much holds some medicine Elise needs at ransom in exchange for Corrin coming to Hoshido with him? That's also a bit scummy to do.

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20 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I mean, doesn't Ryoma also at one point in Conquest pretty much holds some medicine Elise needs at ransom in exchange for Corrin coming to Hoshido with him? That's also a bit scummy to do.

I don't really see it as scummy. I mean, it's war. Even on their own path Nohr are the aggressors. And Elise is either an enemy combatant or, if you haven't promoted/reclassed her, an enemy healer who makes enemy soldiers fight longer. Either way, she's not some innocent girl caught in the crossfire. She's a soldier and should be treated as such.

Besides, in a hypothetical scenario where Takumi fell ill and the Hoshido crew needed to get through Xander to get medicine for him, Xander wouldn't have stepped aside and given Corrin the medicine either.

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59 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think such an interpretation would rob everyone but Corrin of their agency. I don't see Elise dying as a result of Corrin's choices, I see her it as due to Elise herself making the choice to tag along with Corrin. And Ryoma in turn doesn't die due to Corrin's choice but the machination of Team Garon.

 

Well no shit Sherlock there’s no such thing as true agency in fiction that’s why it’s called fiction. It’s not real. It’s artificially constructed by nature. Nothing happens in a story without purpose that is a fact because everything in a story happens because of the author making it happen. They are god here and as such can make whatever they want happen. Viewing it under the lens of “oh this thing only happened to move the plot along” or whatever as a legitimate criticism doesn’t work because that’s why anything happens in any story. You could say this about any character action that they don’t have true agency because no character has true agency. So this point just doesn’t make any sense.

 

59 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I have in fact not considered that because Ryoma is depicted as an upstanding fellow and its never brought up again later. Nowhere does Ryoama come off as someone maliciously conspiring to trick Corrin into waging war against his family, nor does he apologize for having done so(well he does apologize but only for keeping secrets, not for making Corrin turn on Nohr out of falsehoods). Even a bleeding heart like Corrin would be angry if he had been manipulated into turning on his family through false information, especially if that does lead to the deaths of Elise and Xander. In fact Corrin is indeed angry that Garon engineered his trip to Hoshido under false pretences and that it killed his mother. But its fine. Corrin finds its fine. He doesn't even mention how its eerily similar to what Garon has been doing and how the blood of his siblings is directly on Ryoma's hands. 

Yeah it’s not brought up again in birthright because Corrin is blinded by their own biases and contradiction. Also the story doesn’t need to spell this shit out for you. It’s a little thing called “show don’t tell” maybe you heard of it. In regards to the bolded portion, yeah because that’s the point that Corrin doesn’t realize because they’re blinded by their own biases and Naivete. They contradict themselves which is why they fail to truly save everyone like they want to. It’s a little thing called themes!!

 

59 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Besides such a take would have unfortunate implications. Obviously no sibling dies in the Golden route and this is likely meant as something as a reward. But others still die and if we take the aforementioned interpretation then they died as a direct result of Corrin's choice. In that case it comes off as ''Good choice kiddo! You made the right choice so rather than killing your siblings we'll be killing these strangers instead''. 

Yeah because that’s the fucking point!! Revelation is the only route where they are truly in the right. Which is why no one dies besides scarlet and even then scarlet dies in a plot by Anankos to push Corrin on the idea of trust in their family which is the main theme of the entire story trusting in those you care about. A theme that is beaten into your skull from chapter 6. Not even, the fucking prologue establishes this theme pretty bluntly. Also what unfortunate implications? The only people Corrin kills are vallites and some Nohrian henchman both of which are mostly out of self defense more than anything. And even they don’t kill that Nohrians either. Only the ones lead by Zola, Hans, and Iago are killed to my recollection.

Edited by Ottservia

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A thing can be the fucking point and bloody stupid at the same time.

Your point about character agency is very weird. Characters tend to have a reason how they act within their universe. Xander attacking Corrin in that BR scene is, in-universe, Xander's choice. Same with Elise throwing herself into that strike, and Xander refusing to step down. Yes, you can go full sophist and say "everything happens because the author wrote it", but there exists causality within a story.

You use that to dismiss literally everything that happens between Corrin's choice and Xander's Suicide By Adopted Sibling. And the majority of that stuff is very directly the result of other character's choices and actions. Elise and Xander wouldn't have died if Xander wasn't an utter moron. Keaton wouldn't have attacked Corrin's group and died if it wasn't for Iago's direct intervention.

Your fetish for "themes" does not negate any of this.

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1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

I don't really see it as scummy. I mean, it's war. Even on their own path Nohr are the aggressors. And Elise is either an enemy combatant or, if you haven't promoted/reclassed her, an enemy healer who makes enemy soldiers fight longer. Either way, she's not some innocent girl caught in the crossfire. She's a soldier and should be treated as such.

Besides, in a hypothetical scenario where Takumi fell ill and the Hoshido crew needed to get through Xander to get medicine for him, Xander wouldn't have stepped aside and given Corrin the medicine either.

Even in war, it's still a dishonorable thing to do. So it's another strike against Ryoma. Specially since it boils down to "If you value your so called sister's life, then come with us to your other adop... I mean, totally REAL family!" *pushes letters to his own siblings further down his pocket*

That's a "Both sides" fallacy, and it doesn't change the fact Ryoma still did it.

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6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Even in war, it's still a dishonorable thing to do. So it's another strike against Ryoma. Specially since it boils down to "If you value your so called sister's life, then come with us to your other adop... I mean, totally REAL family!" *pushes letters to his own siblings further down his pocket*

That's a "Both sides" fallacy, and it doesn't change the fact Ryoma still did it.

I'm not excusing Ryoma from doing it, I'm just saying that I personally would not consider it a strike against him. It's definitely not nice, but dishonorable? Not 100% sure I agree that it is, considering the totem pole of "dishonorable shit" that happens in Fates.

EDIT: For the record, I don't hold it against Kotaro (or whatever his name is) for holding Kagero hostage. I'm up in the air about how I feel about that one guy in Izumo tricking the Hoshidan royals.

Edited by Sunwoo

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2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Yeah because that’s the fucking point!! Revelation is the only route where they are truly in the right. Which is why no one dies besides scarlet and even then scarlet dies in a plot by Anankos to push Corrin on the idea of trust in their family which is the main theme of the entire story trusting in those you care about. A theme that is beaten into your skull from chapter 6. Not even, the fucking prologue establishes this theme pretty bluntly. Also what unfortunate implications? The only people Corrin kills are vallites and some Nohrian henchman both of which are mostly out of self defense more than anything. And even they don’t kill that Nohrians either. Only the ones lead by Zola, Hans, and Iago are killed to my recollection.

I think Izana THE Izana is going to be heartbroken you forgot him. But Corrin's a good kid. I don't think they would be happy about strangers dying just so that they can have their happy ending. They wouldn't find it a good trade for Scarlet and Izana to die if Elise and Ryoma got to live. 

Quote

Well no shit Sherlock there’s no such thing as true agency in fiction that’s why it’s called fiction. It’s not real. It’s artificially constructed by nature. Nothing happens in a story without purpose that is a fact because everything in a story happens because of the author making it happen. They are god here and as such can make whatever they want happen. Viewing it under the lens of “oh this thing only happened to move the plot along” or whatever as a legitimate criticism doesn’t work because that’s why anything happens in any story. You could say this about any character action that they don’t have true agency because no character has true agency. So this point just doesn’t make any sense.

Truly good writing involves the puppet master being able to hide his strings. If you can clearly see the puppeteer moving his puppets along to get to the desired ending even if this means sacrificing the quality of the story to do so then this often is not a good sign. Think of Game of Thrones where the writers clearly had a desired ending in mind and used every shortcut in the book in order to get there even if those shortcuts didn't make an ounce of sense.  

Quote

Yeah it’s not brought up again in birthright because Corrin is blinded by their own biases and contradiction. Also the story doesn’t need to spell this shit out for you. It’s a little thing called “show don’t tell” maybe you heard of it. In regards to the bolded portion, yeah because that’s the point that Corrin doesn’t realize because they’re blinded by their own biases and Naivete. They contradict themselves which is why they fail to truly save everyone like they want to. It’s a little thing called themes!!

Show don't tell doesn't really apply here because its neither shown nor told that Corrin struggles with the Hoshidans having deceived him into turning on the people who raised him. Even Corrin with his usual naivity should be able to connect the dots when Ryoma at one points said ''I am your brother by blood and those Nohrians can't possible be your family'' and if he then says on another occasion ''I want to sleep with you and just so you know its not weird cause we're actually not related at all, and you just turned on your siblings over a lie'' 

Corrin can be easily deceived but once that point has passed he at least notices he has indeed been deceived. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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35 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I'm not excusing Ryoma from doing it, I'm just saying that I personally would not consider it a strike against him. It's definitely not nice, but dishonorable? Not 100% sure I agree that it is, considering the totem pole of "dishonorable shit" that happens in Fates.

EDIT: For the record, I don't hold it against Kotaro (or whatever his name is) for holding Kagero hostage. I'm up in the air about how I feel about that one guy in Izumo tricking the Hoshidan royals.

Sure, it's pragmatic, but it is definitely dishonorable. It's one thing if Elise is on the battlefield and was captured or injured, but the moment she fell sick she became a non-combatant. So Ryoma leveraging her life in order to regain Corrin is in the same vein as pulling the "blood family" card when he knows they aren't related. He treats Corrin more like a prize or stolen toy. "S/He was ours first, hand it back!" The other siblings are excused since for years and/or all their lives they were lead to believe Corrin was also their blood siblings and thus feel hurt when Corrin chooses to remain with the Nohrians, but Ryoma knew the truth. I don't think he shouldn't have done it, just that by doing so he's not doing it in a just matter.

I'd put Zola's actions as the same. Willing to violate Izumo's neutrality and kidnap defenseless people... but it could end the war without having to invade Hoshido. It's understandable, even if it's not honorable.

In modern real-life terms it'd be like committing war crimes in order to end the war quicker. Or the US launching the Atomic Bombs instead of doing Operation Downfall.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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I could get behind the idea of Ryoma being a liar who is just as bad as the Nohrians as a story beat, if only it were ever treated as an actual plot point by the game itself. But the reality is that it isn't. Corrin never finds out he's not actually Hoshidan in Birthright and even in Revelation Ryoma says absolutely nothing when it's revealed by Sumeragi. Ryoma knowing is never treated as an element of his character nor is his lying ever treated as a flaw or even acknowledged by the story. Him knowing is treated purely as him being a postman to deliver the news of it not being incest in optional supports and never as an aspect of him as a character or as the narrative itself. Simply put, yeah, Ryoma is kind of shitty for knowing this really important information and not divulging it at the right time, but the story never actually depicts him or his behavior as shitty in that context.

Edited by Jotari

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37 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Truly good writing involves the puppet master being able to hide his strings. If you can clearly see the puppeteer moving his puppets along to get to the desired ending even if this means sacrificing the quality of the story to do so then this often is not a good sign. Think of Game of Thrones where the writers clearly had a desired ending in mind and used every shortcut in the book in order to get there even if those shortcuts didn't make an ounce of sense.  

People have echoed this argument against me multiple times and the more I think about it the more I realize this argument makes Zero sense. Cause what is the point of analysis/criticism if not to want to see those puppet strings? Answer me that. Cause what are you criticizing in a story if not the execution of an idea or theme? If it’s not that then what are you criticizing? What are you saying every story needs to be subtle so people can’t see the ideas and symbolism behind their work? So I guess all foreshadowing is bad then because the entire point of foreshadowing is to make the audience aware of future plot points. But I guess by this logic if you notice an author use foreshadowing(which is literally the point of foreshadowing) then it’s automatically bad writing because you noticed why an author wrote something a certain way. You see how this logic falls apart after just five minutes of thought? 

 

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think Izana THE Izana is going to be heartbroken you forgot him. But Corrin's a good kid. I don't think they would be happy about strangers dying just so that they can have their happy ending. They wouldn't find it a good trade for Scarlet and Izana to die if Elise and Ryoma got to live. 

I will concede that Izana’s death is really dumb

 

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Show don't tell doesn't really apply here because its neither shown nor told that Corrin struggles with the Hoshidans having deceived him into turning on the people who raised him. Even Corrin with his usual naivity should be able to connect the dots when Ryoma at one points said ''I am your brother by blood and those Nohrians can't possible be your family'' and if he then says on another occasion ''I want to sleep with you and just so you know its not weird cause we're actually not related at all, and you just turned on your siblings over a lie'' 

Corrin can be easily deceived but once that point has passed he at least notices he has indeed been deceived. 

 

31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I could get behind the idea of Ryoma being a liar who is just as bad as the Nohrians as a story beat, if only it were ever treated as an actual plot point by the game itself. But the reality is that it isn't. Corrin never finds out he's not actually Hoshidan in Birthright and even in Revelation Ryoma says absolutely nothing when it's revealed by Sumeragi. Ryoma knowing is never treated as an element of his character nor is his lying ever treated as a flaw or even acknowledged by the story. Him knowing is treated purely as him being a postman to deliver the news of it not being incest in optional supports and never as an aspect of him as a character or as the narrative itself. Simply put, yeah, Ryoma is kind of shitty for knowing this really important information and not divulging it at the right time, but the story never actually depicts him or his behavior as shitty in that context.

And these are criticisms that actually make sense

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17 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

People have echoed this argument against me multiple times and the more I think about it the more I realize this argument makes Zero sense. Cause what is the point of analysis/criticism if not to want to see those puppet strings? Answer me that. Cause what are you criticizing in a story if not the execution of an idea or theme? If it’s not that then what are you criticizing? What are you saying every story needs to be subtle so people can’t see the ideas and symbolism behind their work? So I guess all foreshadowing is bad then because the entire point of foreshadowing is to make the audience aware of future plot points. But I guess by this logic if you notice an author use foreshadowing(which is literally the point of foreshadowing) then it’s automatically bad writing because you noticed why an author wrote something a certain way. You see how this logic falls apart after just five minutes of thought? 

I think an example would best illustrate my point. 

Ned Stark's death is ultimately there to subvert our expectations and to drill into our skull what sort of world Westeros is. On some level we all realize this but we're not incentived to spend much time pondering this. Rather than the image in our skull being George literally puppeteering all his little puppets in place for his scene we instead view this scene through the lens of the world building of Westeros and the mental instabilities of those in the royal court. 

In contrast in the later seasons it became distractedly easy to tell that many characters died simply because the writers needed them gone to reach their desired ending. So the puppets all had to dance in place even if they had to retroactively go back and change pretty much every single character trait we're been told all those characters supposedly had. 

Or in more Fire Emblem related terms. Jugdral had child characters because they needed child characters. It was decided Sigurd would die and it was only natural that his son would finish his work. In contrast Fates did not need child characters but they wanted child characters and were willing to twist and to break everything in their path to get their child characters. 

I guess the general point I'm trying to make is that ideas and symbolism must be incorporated gracefully. As for your point on foreshadowing, its usually a sign of excellent foreshadowing that you only realize its foreshadowing retroactively. In Xenoblade for instance I recall absolutely not appreciating that rather than good forshadowing they just had a character suspiciously mumble to himself whenever he's alone and even say word for word that he's betraying the team. Meanwhile a movie like Shutters Island you can assume it plays all its tropes straight and only when the twist comes do you really recognize all the foreshadowing. 

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On 7/30/2021 at 9:10 PM, vanguard333 said:

I doubt this. There will certainly be some who think this, but they will undoubtedly be far from the majority. Both games have similar problems of IS biting off more than they could chew, but Three Houses at least has clear focus, and the stuff that it does well, it does very well. It's a lot like Breath of the Wild in that regard: it isn't great overall, but it does get right the things that were core to it and does very well at those things. Fates, meanwhile, is an unfocused and scattered mess. People will look back on it and notice things about it that had potential (as even I have done), but those are not things that were good; just things that could've been good. As far as "not as bad as people made it out to be"; that will only be true if talking about people who acted as if Fates was the worst game ever made, and I don't recall a single person going that far.

 

Anyway, here's my unpopular opinion: Shadow Dragon is a more enjoyable game and a better remake than Shadows of Valentia. At least Shadow Dragon knew what it wanted to be: a 1:1 remake with some added conveniences and improvements here and there. You won't expect much from it, but it delivers everything you would expect from it. Shadows of Valentia can't decide if it wants to be a 1:1 remake, a full-overhaul remake, or something in-between, and the result is an awkward mismatch that's far less than the sum of its parts.

Seriously, why is Shadows of Valentia considered the better remake? Is it because it has voice acting? What's the point of having decent voice acting if the script is bad (and, unlike Shadow Dragon, doesn't even have the excuse of being a barebones script from the early 90s)?

Simple. Shadow Dragon was TOO 1:1, it completely fucked over the Archanea cast. Which is a shame as just like Echoes, it had some amazing dialogue sequences. Echoes is the better remake because it tries to give a shit about its characters and visuals, the things people can't stop gushing about. I still like Shadow Dragon a lot, but lets be honest with ourselves. Also, SOV absolutely has the excuse of 90s barebones stuff. The things that people dislike most (lopsided treatment of women) with little to no popularity or benefit was a product of the 90s. People hateeee the damsel shit far more than popular inclusions like Berkut and whatever else. The plot points are divisive but the script is generally well received, people like the way chars talk and the way they talk to each other. From Gray and Tobin's banter, Mae being Mae, to even the side chars enjoyable moments (Jesse is hilarious and enjoyable in all of this little screentime. Such as the prism with Silque).

Edited by Seazas

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On 7/31/2021 at 3:22 PM, vanguard333 said:

As for worldbuilding, the worldbuilding in Fates was practically nonexistent, and what little scraps of worldbuilding were there fell apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny or the moment a single question about it was asked. There's practically nothing to the world of Fates, to the point where they didn't even name the continent.

It depends on what you look at: The differences between everything-Hoshidian and everything-Nohrian are glaring. Classes, weapons, animations, character designs, names, buildings, architecture, colours, food, music, maps... Every single element is unique! It shows a level of production that Four Houses could only dream of.

For me, the "world" of Hoshido and the "world" of Nohr are many times more distinct, unique and successful than any nation depicted in Four Houses. The "text" of the latter is irrelevant when everything looks the same.

 

On 7/31/2021 at 3:22 PM, vanguard333 said:

I'm sorry; what?! Fates is bad across the board: story, characters, worldbuilding, combat, level design, world design, class balancing, etc. The gameplay is a nightmare of tacked-on gimmicks.

For instance, with map/level design, Conquest and Revelation's maps may as well be called, "tedious gimmick: the game". What's the worst thing you can accurately say about Three Houses' map/level design?

"Non-existent." That is the worst that one can say about Four Houses's map design.
The game plays entirely like a turn-based RPG that happens to be shown on a grid, there are no tactics involved. It feels more like SNES Final Fantasy than Advance Wars.

We have different ideas about what elements make gameplay interesting. Just note that what seems great to you can also be truly boring for many of us. For me, Four Houses is either very easy or tedious, but never engaging or challenging. Conquest, on the other hand, is a puzzle that draws my attention every time, even after dozens of campaigns.

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5 minutes ago, starburst said:

It depends on what you look at: The differences between everything-Hoshidian and everything-Nohrian are glaring. Classes, weapons, animations, character designs, names, buildings, architecture, colours, food, music, maps... Every single element is unique! It shows a level of production that Four Houses could only dream of.

For me, the "world" of Hoshido and the "world" of Nohr are many times more distinct, unique and successful than any nation depicted in Four Houses. The "text" of the latter is irrelevant when everything looks the same.

 

"Non-existent." That is the worst that one can say about Four Houses's map design.
The game plays entirely like a turn-based RPG that happens to be shown on a grid, there are no tactics involved. It feels more like SNES Final Fantasy than Advance Wars.

We have different ideas about what elements make gameplay interesting. Just note that what seems great to you can also be truly boring for many of us. For me, Four Houses is either very easy or tedious, but never engaging or challenging. Conquest, on the other hand, is a puzzle that draws my attention every time, even after dozens of campaigns.

Every single thing is unique? Debatable, Nohr and Hoshido only has the visual aspect going for it, which makes it more shallow when you pull back the visual flair and see nothing there. It didn't give a single shit about building the surrounding world that the game does end up humoring, it was entirely ignored by the story. Even some aspects about Nohr and Hoshido gets ignored. The big thing Fates has going for it is gameplay.

Edited by Seazas

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2 hours ago, Seazas said:

Simple. Shadow Dragon was TOO 1:1, it completely fucked over the Archanea cast. Which is a shame as just like Echoes, it had some amazing dialogue sequences. Echoes is the better remake because it tries to give a shit about its characters and visuals, the things people can't stop gushing about. I still like Shadow Dragon a lot, but lets be honest with ourselves. Also, SOV absolutely has the excuse of 90s barebones stuff. The things that people dislike most (lopsided treatment of women) with little to no popularity or benefit was a product of the 90s. People hateeee the damsel shit far more than popular inclusions like Berkut and whatever else. The plot points are divisive but the script is generally well received, people like the way chars talk and the way they talk to each other. From Gray and Tobin's banter, Mae being Mae, to even the side chars enjoyable moments (Jesse is hilarious and enjoyable in all of this little screentime. Such as the prism with Silque).

I disagree with the notion that Shadow Dragon was too 1:1. Not only was it an international remake of a game that was Japan-only, but it did add a lot, just not in the script or the levels. The Archanea cast may not have been given more dialogue or voice acting, but at the same time, the remake did nothing to worsen them.

Echoes can't use that excuse because it demonstrated that it was willing to overhaul things to fix perceived problems with the original, and my criticism isn't that it did too much or too little, but that it did so haphazardly. It can't go "Oh; it's a 90s script" because at least half of it isn't the 90s script; it's an awkward mismatch of a 90s script and a 2010s script.

I'll admit that a lot of the side characters' dialogue outside the plot is pretty good; it's one of the things that reminds me that Shadows of Valentia had potential.

 

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15 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I disagree with the notion that Shadow Dragon was too 1:1. Not only was it an international remake of a game that was Japan-only, but it did add a lot, just not in the script or the levels. The Archanea cast may not have been given more dialogue or voice acting, but at the same time, the remake did nothing to worsen them.

Echoes can't use that excuse because it demonstrated that it was willing to overhaul things to fix perceived problems with the original, and my criticism isn't that it did too much or too little, but that it did so haphazardly. It can't go "Oh; it's a 90s script" because at least half of it isn't the 90s script; it's an awkward mismatch of a 90s script and a 2010s script.

I'll admit that a lot of the side characters' dialogue outside the plot is pretty good; it's one of the things that reminds me that Shadows of Valentia had potential.

 

It did add a lot, but not the stuff that the fans are obsessed with. The characters, visuals. and supports. The characters and the attempted value of them are what made Fire Emblem standout to begin with. It's what people talk more about. That is why Echoes is the preferred remake, as it added that and made all the characters way more of... actual characters. By the way, it never overhauled the actual story. Celica's goals? Alm steamrolling? That was always a thing and never stopped being a thing. The only new additions was allowing for the chars to exist more and new chars that ultimately did not matter in the overall story. It never got rid of any potential problems, the only problem it got rid of was the side chars and ugly visuals, which don't exactly effect the plot.

Edited by Seazas

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On 7/31/2021 at 11:22 AM, vanguard333 said:

Are you seriously suggesting that the Pokémon model of having to buy every route separately (unless, like me, you bought the expensive special edition that could only be pre-ordered) is superior to having all the routes in the one game?

Not the original person, but yes, I do, and I've even said as much in this very topic previously:

On 7/29/2020 at 8:52 PM, Florete said:

Three Houses should have used the Fates model of having routes sold separately.

Crimson Flower is too short. Verdant Wind and Silver Snow are nearly identical, and Azure Moon isn't much different from them, either. All of them feel like they have pieces missing, and the first half of the game is the same no matter which one you pick. How many of you have made these same complaints?

Say what you will about the quality of Fates' writing and I will probably agree with you, but you can't make the above complaints. Birthright, Conquest, and Revelation are all the same length, all pretty drastically different from one another, and all tell their full story. Why? Because each one was deliberately made to be its own full game experience due to how the game was being sold in three parts. I defended it even back then, understanding that if they sold it all in one package we would have gotten less, and Three Houses proved me right.

People whined about Fates being sold in parts, so Three Houses came in one package, but the result is quantity over quality. I'd much prefer to have payed $60 for one route that feels truly complete, and another $60 for two (or three) more equally complete, than pay $60 for recycled and unfinished content.

I have a conflicted relationship with Three Houses...

That opinion hasn't changed.

Quote

I'm sorry; what?! Fates is bad across the board: story, characters, worldbuilding, combat, level design, world design, class balancing, etc. The gameplay is a nightmare of tacked-on gimmicks.

I meant more "writing" with story, so story, characters, and worldbuilding are all part of that. I do think there are some decent supports in Fates, but not enough for me to actively try to defend it.

A nightmare of tacked-on gimmicks? I see unique map design with varying strategical elements that keep gameplay fresh.

Quote

For instance, with map/level design, Conquest and Revelation's maps may as well be called, "tedious gimmick: the game". What's the worst thing you can accurately say about Three Houses' map/level design? That they're a bit bland and overly reused? I'd take any day over games whose maps are filled with gimmicks that only serve to add tedium rather than any strategic value. And, with Three Houses, at least the combat mechanics actually fit together nicely, unlike Fates' tacked-on mechanics that reek of wanting to appease Awakening fans and older-game fans at the same time. The monastery is also miles better than MyCastle. Etc.

I'll take some tedious gimmicks any day over TH's bland and extremely overused maps. Consider this: Fates maps are used an average of 1.2 times each; TH maps are used an average of 2.7 times each. That's just insane. I'm not a fan of every single one of Fates' 'gimmicks,' but at least the game made me think. I fall asleep playing TH.

Fates' combat mechanics are the best in the series. The stances and pair-up are perfectly balanced from what they were in Awakening and the weapon balance, while not always perfect, is done pretty well considering it's the first time the series had unbreakable weapons. Adjutants aside, which are a complete joke, TH's mechanics are mostly fine, but go to waste because the game barely gives you the challenges to use them in. Taking away weapon triangle did the game no favors, either.

My Castle > Monastery, no contest. My Castle allows you to take a short break if you want it before getting back into the action, but won't waste your time. Monastery is just a big time sink. People will often counter monastery complaints by saying it's skippable, and yeah, technically it is skippable, but it's so baked into the game's design that you might as well be telling me battle preparations at the start of each map is skippable; it's meant to be utilized and skipping it puts you at a notable disadvantage. And it (monastery) also quickly becomes hella boring.

Quote

And at least the characters in Three Houses are actually characters, rather than a collection of one-note quirks, glorified plot devices, and a mary sue at the center of it all. Fates somehow failed to make an interesting protagonist out of a human/dragon hybrid that was (supposedly) born to one royal family, raised by another, and has to watch as those kingdoms go to war with each other. That's like having all the ingredients, proportions, and recipe books for a delicious meal only to end up with something not even mice would eat.

I do like TH characters more than Fates characters.

Quote

I'd say that both Three Houses and in the "they try a lot and get a large amount of it right" camp. They're both games that can, gameplay-wise, be made almost irrelevant by a polished sequel. 

I'm going to assume this was supposed to say "both Three Houses and BotW in..." Absolutely true for TH, but I don't think BotW will be made irrelevant. There's far too much to see and do in the game. Gamespot has a series that is still uploading (literally uploaded today) showcasing unique things in the game that most people don't know.

On 7/31/2021 at 1:21 AM, ZeManaphy said:

1. Yes they are animated. And yes, these use generic animations, but its still animation nonetheless. Its a very common practice to reuse animations in film and video games, in fact, at the end of Disney's Beauty and the Beast, the scene where Belle dances with Prince Adam is reused frames from Walt Disney's Sleeping Beauty according to developers because they ran out of budget for the ending scene. Even in Fates, Awakening, and Echoes, the majority of classes reuse animations and costumes bar a few characters like Ryoma and Xander. Its simply not practical to create unique animations for every character, animation is a lot of work and I know for a fact because I study animation in college.

I approached this from the wrong angle; yes, they are animated. What I should have added is that the animation is so limited it actually detracts from the experience for me. It's both too little and too much at the same time; too little to feel like it really gives the scenes life, but also too much to allow my brain to fill in the gaps. I genuinely prefer just seeing two character portraits talking to each other to what TH gives us.

On 7/31/2021 at 1:21 AM, ZeManaphy said:

As you can see, I've shown you examples of dialogue changing whether or not it is in Part 1 or Part 2, as well dialogue that also changes if someone is in your army at the moment the conversation is being played. I can provide more if you are not satisfied. 

Well, I guess you got me there. I haven't seen every support, but I thought I'd seen enough to assume changes wouldn't happen based on characters existing or not, since it's a lot easier to keep things consistent. I can't imagine there are many like this, though.

Side note, making all these responses in one post was a pain in the ass and now I sympathize with people who double post.

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