What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Ottservia]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Jeddah is handled awfully and he's more to blame for the idiocy that is the Celica sacrifice than Celica is.

I mean Celica making a dumb decision is kind of the point. You’re supposed to think it’s a dumb decision so Jedah being the way he is only really serves to reinforce that point albeit in the most mysoginistic way imaginable 

[Jotari]

Just now, Ottservia said:

I mean Celica making a dumb decision is kind of the point. You’re supposed to think it’s a dumb decision so Jedah being the way he is only really serves to reinforce that point albeit in the most mysoginistic way imaginable 

It's meant to be a desperate decision, not a stupid one. Celica is not depicted as a character that is lacking in mental faculty. Indeed she's depicted as quite resourceful. She's hardlined in her beliefs and doesn't know what else to do, but she's not an idiot. At least, she's not depicted like she's meant to be one. But Jeddah is so utterly lacking in charisma, good faith  or basically any trait that doesn't belong to a Saturday morning cartoon villain, that she certainly comes across as one.

[henrymidfields]

Is it just me, or did anyone else did not like Lucina. I've listed all of the good things I liked about each Lords, yet I really struggled to find anything I like about her.

Character traits? I just kinda found her to be too inoffensive in general. On paper, this shouldn't be the case, but for some unknown reason I just fail to relate.

Her role in the story? Just never paid attention. I know it was supposed to be a big impact, but it just fails to register unlike the others.

Her gameplay role? Didn't care; Awakening is an easy game.

Her in Smash? That's actually a dealbreaker for me, if anything. I'm one of the people who absolutely hates Smash Bros - thanks to another certain princess outside of FE somehow being treated as an equal instead of a fucking ditzy idiot she should be identified as.

Edited September 21, 2021 by henrymidfields

[Jotari]

17 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Is it just me, or did anyone else did not like Lucina. I've listed all of the good things I liked about each Lords, yet I really struggled to find anything I like about her.

Character traits? I just kinda found her to be too inoffensive in general. On paper, this shouldn't be the case, but for some unknown reason I just fail to relate.

Her role in the story? Just never paid attention. I know it was supposed to be a big impact, but it just fails to register unlike the others.

Her gameplay role? Didn't care; Awakening is an easy game.

Her in Smash? That's actually a dealbreaker for me, if anything. I'm one of the people who absolutely hates Smash Bros - thanks to another certain princess outside of FE somehow being treated as an equal instead of a fucking ditzy idiot she should be identified as.

Yeah I struggled so much I just quietly dropped her. I guess I can say I like her backstory, but that's not really hers alone, and even accepting it as is, well it's somewhat likable, it's also a bit stereotypical of time travellers.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah I struggled so much I just quietly dropped her. I guess I can say I like her backstory, but that's not really hers alone, and even accepting it as is, well it's somewhat likable, it's also a bit stereotypical of time travellers.

If you wanna talk stereotypical her official artwork can be seen as a reference to Trunks from DBZ

[vanguard333]

10 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Well your first problem was assuming that Anankos was a bad villain. Because he’s not. The same goes for Jedah btw. They each represent the themes of their respective stories well and foil the protagonist in interesting ways. How Anankos was so easily betrayed by the humans he loved and that in turn created distrust in his heart which ultimately festered into a sweltering hate. Jedah foiling Celica in trying to keep the age of gods going. Not believing in humanity’s strength and needing to rely on the gods. The agarthans would be good if you know 3H was a finished story but it’s not a finished story so you know they just end up being blegh

I'd honestly say that Anankos is a very interesting villain to read about in a wiki article, but the execution of those interesting concepts leave something to be desired. It doesn't help that some important details for understanding him as a character aren't actually in the base game but instead are in DLC.

Jedah as a character comes across as if the writing team were in disagreement on what they wanted to do with him (granted, I say that about a lot of different aspects of Shadows of Valentia). There is definitely times where he is as you described: a man who foils Celica by believing wholeheartedly that Valentia needs Duma in order to survive and that will do anything to ensure that, but then you have the rest of the time, where he's a self-centered moustache-twirling villain rather than a fanatic foil to the main heroine. 

What do you mean by "the Argathans would be good if Three Houses was a finished story"?

 

11 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'm pretty sure there had been complains about the Blood Pact in RD at least, which was part of the overall plan of his so some of those conflicts could be engineered at all.

The blood pacts were entirely Lekain's doing; Sephiran merely used Lekain's selfish ambition as part of his plan for a continent-wide war.

 

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Gharnef has an easy time not negatively affecting the plot because like most Shadow Dragon villains he's barely part of it. He only shows up three times in Shadow Dragon if I recall correctly. I find this mostly a problem but it leaves Gharnef with very little room to screw things up. ''Less is more'' is a more positive spin you could put on Gharnef. He does what he needs to for the plot and mostly does it competently. I also think it speaks well of Gharnef and Sephiran that while they are the cause of everything collapsing they are not strictly the cause of everything. Many of the problems in Archenea and Tellius already existed without them, and many villains are independent actors who can exist without their respective Gharnef. Garon and the slitherers exist with the clear purpose of reducing the potential of other characters but Sephiran doesn't really take away anything from Lekain, or Gharnef from Michalis. Gharnef and Sephiran make good use of the world and characters around them rather than stifling those things like the Slitherers do. 

Though I actually rather like Jedah. He fixes the problem of most Gharnefs being really boring. Jedah's pretty boastful and expressive rather than the typical generic evil cackling. He's notable that he's among the few Gharnefs who can actually have a real conversation with a lord. And while he's really evil he's not just really evil with his dependency of Duma helping to place his actions in proper context. Its a nice touch he actually seems scared of a world without the gods which makes him a good thematic foil to Alm. Where he stumbles is that the story needed him to be a little bit less evil than he is, and that the story at a very weird point doubles down on how evil Jedah is supposed to be.

I think you said it better than I ever could; that with Gharnef and Sephiran, there's a clear dividing line between what was their doing and what wasn't, and that what was their doing didn't undermine the agency of other characters. With more recent examples of the trope such as TWSITD, it's more muddy, and the agency of other characters is negatively impacted by them.

I can agree that Jedah wasn't boring, though a lot of that was probably thanks to voice acting.

 

 

[Acacia Sgt]

11 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

The blood pacts were entirely Lekain's doing; Sephiran merely used Lekain's selfish ambition as part of his plan for a continent-wide war.

Execution, yes, but how did they even came up with them? Sephiran gave Ashnard one, who says he also didn't handed a couple more to Lekain? The Senate is to Sephiran what the Slitherers were to Edelgard, to give something of a comparison. Only inverting the roles of who is meant to manipulate who.

Regardless, the Blood Pact is a narrative cheapness to force certain aspects of the plot. Like the Valla Curse a couple games later on. It doesn't help they already turned Daein into a caricature of itself to begin with, ironically making the Blood Pact redundant in its execution.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[henrymidfields]

I dunno whether this is unpopular or otherwise, this could just be 50-50, but Ike's lack of character development in Radiant Dawn, alongside with Micaiah being shafted in Part 4 I have bigger problems with. For the remakes, ideally make Ike the Gotoh and focus on Micaiah's story first and foremost, and keep the narrative viewpoint as consistent as possible. Though maybe this requires fundemental changes with Yune, the petrification etc?

If that's not possible without fundementally changing the story, then show how Ike is (and Greil Mercs in general are) negatively affected with all of the politics behind, how the higher-ups manage to strongarm the Mercs to do their bidding, and show how he's powerless outside of battles. I don't think this really requires any more than some changes with the Ike's interactions and not fundementally overturn the plot itself. I'm happy with either, but just stop with this worshippings of some improbably invincible hero.

Edited September 21, 2021 by henrymidfields

[Etrurian emperor]

With Sephiran you also have the interesting scenario that he manipulates Lekain for his own end, but that Lekain is the one who made Sephiran a villain to begin with. Sephiran makes use of Lekain's corruption but only after Lekain corrupted him first. 

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

With Sephiran you also have the interesting scenario that he manipulates Lekain for his own end, but that Lekain is the one who made Sephiran a villain to begin with. Sephiran makes use of Lekain's corruption but only after Lekain corrupted him first. 

Very true. In a way, Sephiran probably considered using Lekain to be a form of vengeance for the Serenes Forest (as there's no way he didn't either already know or figure out that Lekain was responsible).

 

16 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Execution, yes, but how did they even came up with them? Sephiran gave Ashnard one, who says he also didn't handed a couple more to Lekain? The Senate is to Sephiran what the Slitherers were to Edelgard, to give something of a comparison. Only inverting the roles of who is meant to manipulate who.

Regardless, the Blood Pact is a narrative cheapness to force certain aspects of the plot. Like the Valla Curse a couple games later on. It doesn't help they already turned Daein into a caricature of itself to begin with, ironically making the Blood Pact redundant in its execution.

I don't recall it ever being said that Ashnard got his blood pact from Sephiran.

And how did the game turn Daein into a caricature of itself?

[Jotari]

Blood Pact thread for people who'd like to toss around ideas for rewriting Radiant Dawn.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

18 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I don't recall it ever being said that Ashnard got his blood pact from Sephiran.

And how did the game turn Daein into a caricature of itself?

Quote

"My aim has always been to wake Ashera so that she might pass judgment on all the people of the world. What I needed was a war that would spread all across the continent. How could I achieve this? My attention turned to the young Daein prince… I could use the fiery Ashnard for my purposes. He was ambitious, a fierce warrior, and more than anything, he had an earnest desire to change the world. When I allowed him to know of the goddess sealed inside the medallion, he became determined to set her free."

Sephiran used Ashnard. So he handed him a Blood Pact so he could force his way into the throne.

They took Daein's hatred of the Laguz and cranked up to eleven. The people of Daein should've been content to just let Begnion and the Laguz destroy each other. The Laguz because of their hatred, and Begnion due to the three years of occupation and the extreme discriminatory conditions they were subjugated under. Specially since as we saw with Nico they had no qualms attacking and possibly killing children. Yet the moment Begnion comes knocking asking for help, the people of Daein are quite eager to help them out. Forget Pelleas and Micaiah facing the dilemma of the Blood Pact. They should've feared more the fact their own people wanted to jump into the war the moment the offer was made. Or fearing that perhaps not even the Silver-Haired Maiden's word may not dissuade them from joining the war. They made the people of Daein too quick to let go of their hatred of Begnion they were basically becoming Begnion's lapdogs again, willingly even, just because it meant getting to fight Laguz. A big irony considering that when Begnion controlled Daein they complained about it but the moment they're free, they're now happy to do whatever Begnion told them to.

In itself, it's not a bad thing, but this is the thing that needs nuance behind it. Not just pulling it out of nowhere. Several times ago in the past I've mentioned how you can pull this off in a more organic and nuanced way, without using the Blood Pact as a cheap way to force-tie Pelleas and Micaiah's hands on the matter. Where their positions of authority are not challenged by a magic piece of paper, but rather, by the very people they are meant to serve and doing what's best for them or what they want.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[vanguard333]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Sephiran used Ashnard. So he handed him a Blood Pact so he could force his way into the throne.

They took Daein's hatred of the Laguz and cranked up to eleven. The people of Daein should've been content to just let Begnion and the Laguz destroy each other. The Laguz because of their hatred, and Begnion due to the three years of occupation and the extreme discriminatory conditions they were subjugated under. Specially since as we saw with Nico they had no qualms attacking and possibly killing children. Yet the moment Begnion comes knocking asking for help, the people of Daein are quite eager to help them out. Forget Pelleas and Micaiah facing the dilemma of the Blood Pact. They should've feared more the fact their own people wanted to jump into the war the moment the offer was made. Or fearing that perhaps not even the Silver-Haired Maiden's word may not dissuade them from joining the war. They made the people of Daein too quick to let go of their hatred of Begnion they were basically becoming Begnion's lapdogs again, willingly even, just because it meant getting to fight Laguz. A big irony considering that when Begnion controlled Daein they complained about it but the moment they're free, they're now happy to do whatever Begnion told them to.

In itself, it's not a bad thing, but this is the thing that needs nuance behind it. Not just pulling it out of nowhere. Several times ago in the past I've mentioned how you can pull this off in a more organic and nuanced way, without using the Blood Pact as a cheap way to force-tie Pelleas and Micaiah's hands on the matter. Where their positions of authority are not challenged by the a magic peace of paper, but rather, by the very people they are meant to serve and doing what's best for them or what they want.

I think you may have read too much into that sentence, since nowhere does it mention the blood pact; it only mentions that they told him about the medallion.

Uh... the people of Daein are not eager to help out Begnion in the war; they're still recovering from both losing the Mad King's War and winning a war of independence against the Begnion occupation army; they are tired and weary, and they do not want to fight in another war, let alone fight on the same side as Begnion. They do so because their Joan of Arc (Micaiah) is telling them to do so, and she was ordered to do so by King Pelleas.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I think you may have read too much into that sentence, since nowhere does it mention the blood pact; it only mentions that they told him about the medallion.

Uh... the people of Daein are not eager to help out Begnion in the war; they're still recovering from both losing the Mad King's War and winning a war of independence against the Begnion occupation army; they are tired and weary, and they do not want to fight in another war, let alone fight on the same side as Begnion. They do so because their Joan of Arc (Micaiah) is telling them to do so, and she was ordered to do so by King Pelleas.

It is a pretty decent explanation as to where Ashnard got his hands on a blood pact though.

[Acacia Sgt]

8 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I think you may have read too much into that sentence, since nowhere does it mention the blood pact; it only mentions that they told him about the medallion.

Uh... the people of Daein are not eager to help out Begnion in the war; they're still recovering from both losing the Mad King's War and winning a war of independence against the Begnion occupation army; they are tired and weary, and they do not want to fight in another war, let alone fight on the same side as Begnion. They do so because their Joan of Arc (Micaiah) is telling them to do so, and she was ordered to do so by King Pelleas.

At no point Micaiah told them to, however. She mentions they're eager, how bounties were promised for each Laguz kill, and from her own words she didn't told them first. She saw how eager they were, so she didn't had the heart to tell them no. So they quickly dropped their hatred of Begnion, wearyness of war, and all that before Micaiah said anything on the matter. That's also a good point to have brought up instead of the Blood Pact. That Micaiah doesn't have the heart to tell them no, fearing they might not hear this one time. It was easy when both she and they had a common enemy, but now that there is a difference of opinion? Micaiah caves in, since she already fears the stigma of being a Branded, so she wants to appease them while she can still walk among them. However, instead of focusing on those dilemmas, we only get the Blood Pact shoved up our noses. They squandered any good potential of making the war a truly complex and nuanced matter. But no, they didn't took that route.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

What do you mean by "the Argathans would be good if Three Houses was a finished story"?

It’s as I said. They would be good if 3H was a finished story because as it stands 3H is not a finished story. The amount of times the story sets up a conflict only to never deliver on it is just baffling. Crimson Flower being the most egregious example where the agarthans get the most focus with an actual place in the story. But then they’re just taken out off screen in the epilogue which is the most anti-climatic way to handle it. Cause the problem with the Agarthans is that they are so important to 3H’s narrative and world yet at the same their existence in said narrative is negligible at best. And again the story sets them up as a mysterious big bad manipulating things from the shadows as early as white clouds. But it’s never delivered on. And the ideas they set up with the agarthans are interesting ones but they never deliver on those ideas.

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

It’s as I said. They would be good if 3H was a finished story because as it stands 3H is not a finished story. The amount of times the story sets up a conflict only to never deliver on it is just baffling. Crimson Flower being the most egregious example where the agarthans get the most focus with an actual place in the story. But then they’re just taken out off screen in the epilogue which is the most anti-climatic way to handle it. Cause the problem with the Agarthans is that they are so important to 3H’s narrative and world yet at the same their existence in said narrative is negligible at best. And again the story sets them up as a mysterious big bad manipulating things from the shadows as early as white clouds. But it’s never delivered on. And the ideas they set up with the agarthans are interesting ones but they never deliver on those ideas.

Ah; that's what you meant. Yeah; one criticism of Three Houses would definitely be that it sets up a lot of things only to resolve some of them rather hastily. I honestly do think that they bit off more than they could chew, especially since, if I recall correctly, they said in an interview that the final game ended up being over twice as big as what they had originally envisioned.

[henrymidfields]

35 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Ah; that's what you meant. Yeah; one criticism of Three Houses would definitely be that it sets up a lot of things only to resolve some of them rather hastily. I honestly do think that they bit off more than they could chew, especially since, if I recall correctly, they said in an interview that the final game ended up being over twice as big as what they had originally envisioned.

The devs might have been better off to at most focus on three routes and repurpose silver snow. That route just doesn't make sense with the rest of Black Eagles siding with the church, and it shares all but one chapter with Verdant Wind anyway - I just don't see the point in playing said route when the only bonus is an S-support with Rhea, which really, could have been added just as easily in Azure Moon or Verdant Wind.

Still, I think it's so far one of the few FE I genuinely have been enjoying actually reading through, and I genuinely hope the storywriting could further improve from here. Let's face it people, we're not...everyone who plays FE, but a minority who likes to overanalyze stuff.

As for something that I noticed have changed in other parts of the FE fandom, yet I haven't changed my opinion of? I for one, even after half a decade of hindsight, am still glad to do away with the hot mess that is Fates Conquest's story.

(I never got my hands on a Jugdral game, and the Tellius games just have some of the worst price-gouging when it comes to actually buying them.)

Edited September 21, 2021 by henrymidfields

[Eltosian Kadath]

14 hours ago, Ottservia said:

You see the difference here is that the story doesn’t change regardless of what happens to Delthea or Mathilda only the context and even then barely.

14 hours ago, Ottservia said:

In 3H, the act of Byleth choosing one house over the other drastically changes the story and how it effects specific characters. It creates completely different winners and losers to the conflicts which makes the differences more significant.

You said yourself (in the statement I quoted before) that all those other routes add is context to the Edelgard of CF, and that such drastic and wide sweeping change is necessary to bring these traits out, as opposed to very minor changes, indicate that they are less important to the character as a whole, rather than the traits that lie just under the surface like Alms.

 

14 hours ago, Ottservia said:

cause there’s still the noble vs commoner conflict,

Only if you blatantly misinterpret the clear theme of your origin doesn't matter as noble vs. commoner instead. Alm is the emperor that plows; those born as lowly villagers can show themselves worthy of knighthood; sharing the same blood doesn't make Berkut as noble as Alm; outcasts like Jesse or shepherds like Kamui can become kings through their actions; princes can trade their right to rule for civil servitude; even a legacy of magic can be rejected in favor of a simple life; to quote Mewtwo "the circumstances of one’s birth are irrelevant… It is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are.” People act like the reveal that Alm does have noble blood is a reversal of this theme, but it isn't, its a judgement on us for not accepting it. If you truly understood the theme, that Alm having noble blood instead of peasant blood wouldn't matter to you.

 

14 hours ago, Ottservia said:

mysoginy,

While distasteful, this is clearly more a product of gaiden's time, than a key theme.

 

14 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Celica being more or less worthless,

And yet Celica is proven right. Her trust in the gods is justified, and her self sacrifice necessary for Mother Mila to unseal the Falchion, and doom her brother to death. She even helps Alm understand her position by forcing upon him a moment of true faith, put in a position where his only choice to save her is in trusting in Mila that stabbing Celica will have good results, despite all evidence to the contrary. Martyrdom is a very old and powerful idea that the game doesn't believe is worthless, despite your opinion of it.

 

14 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Alm’s character doesn’t change whether Mathilda/Delthea survive or not. But choosing BL over CF drastically changes the outcome of Edelgard’s character and that is something worth examining.

This simply isn't true for the same reason that never wearing a seatbelt is still reckless, even during the car rides that don't result in an accident. The death of Mathilda/Delthea is a result of his recklessness if it happens, but even if it doesn't, it was still reckless.

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I don't recall it ever being said that Ashnard got his blood pact from Sephiran.

Circumstantial evidence, taken from the Japan-only "Extended Script" for 3-F:

Almedha:
“Ashnard, he… always worried about the future of a world without equals. He was born an outstanding man, wise beyond his age, yet could never become king. So to shape his ideal world, he decided to resort to underhanded schemes. That’s right… he tricked his father into signing a blood pact with a traveling wise man.”

Tauroneo:
“Who was he!? That wise man…?”

Almedha:
“I do not know the details…

This does not say it was Sephiran. But:

• We know from some flashbacks that Seph seemed to adopt a "Lord Sage" identity 20 years prior. It's the term Zelgius used to describe him, and it's the term used by peasants who told him they were going to raze Serenes to the ground.
• We know Seph pretended to be a pilgrim during the PoR invasion of Crimea and that Sanaki notes his wonderful personae when travels. This comes off as not unusual to her, and therefore he must have done it with some frequency.
• We can assume that a Blood Pact would be powerful and very possibly forbidden magic, not something you could ask your common mage to prepare.
  • Seph is likely the greatest practitioner of magic on the Tellius continent. And not just Light, as he has SS Light and Dark ranks in gameplay, worth noting because a Blood Pact would likely lean Dark if anything. If Sephiran can't whip up a Blood Pact, nobody could.
• Sephiran we know took an interest in using Ashnard as his agent for the Medallion-break. Before the Blood Pact came to be, he had already handed his Medallion and one of his kin to Ashnard. Not insignificant items to pass on. Long after the Blood Pact, he would loan Ashy his lone Knight, and through him provide the Mad King with some blessed armor.
• If Sephiran gave Ashnard a Blood Pact, he would have obvious reasons for doing so. Ashnard wanted it to take the throne, and having full access to the resources of Daein would let him Medallion-break easier, which is what Seph desired.

Altogether, we have a man who is wise, who others envision as wise, who travels incognito, who would benefit from giving Ashnard a Blood Pact, and had already given the future Mad King some gifts.

Not a confession of guilt, but I'd say the implications are there.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Interdimensional Observer

[Etrurian emperor]

51 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Sephiran we know took an interest in using Ashnard as his agent for the Medallion-break. Before the Blood Pact came to be, he had already handed his Medallion and one of his kin to Ashnard. Not insignificant items to pass on. Long after the Blood Pact, he would loan Ashy his lone Knight, and through him provide the Mad King with some blessed armor.

I'm not sure that matches up. Ashnard got his hands Reyson's sister and I think the medalion too at the time of the massacre during which Sephiran wasn't trying to awaken the goddess yet. Whether Ashnard got the medallion on the massacre or before it he already had it when he captured Reyson sister, which means he couldn't have gotten it from Sephiran.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[Acacia Sgt]

11 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm not sure that matches up. Ashnard got his hands Reyson's sister and I think the medalion too at the time of the massacre during which Sephiran wasn't trying to awaken the goddess yet. Whether Ashnard got the medallion on the massacre or before it he already had it when he captured Reyson sister, which means he couldn't have gotten it from Sephiran.

True, Ashnard got the Medallion and Lillia during or shortly after the massacre; but when Sephiran found out, he basically went "Keep them. BTW, there's a dark god inside that thing and you could use the Heron to free her... or a continent-spanning war works fine too." Essentially handing them over to him.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

While distasteful, this is clearly more a product of gaiden's time, than a key theme.

Counter point Faye and Rinea who weren’t in the Original Gaiden but make the mysoginy worse than it already was,

 

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

16 hours ago, Ottservia said:

 

Only if you blatantly misinterpret the clear theme of your origin doesn't matter as noble vs. commoner instead. Alm is the emperor that plows; those born as lowly villagers can show themselves worthy of knighthood; sharing the same blood doesn't make Berkut as noble as Alm; outcasts like Jesse or shepherds like Kamui can become kings through their actions; princes can trade their right to rule for civil servitude; even a legacy of magic can be rejected in favor of a simple life; to quote Mewtwo "the circumstances of one’s birth are irrelevant… It is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are.” People act like the reveal that Alm does have noble blood is a reversal of this theme, but it isn't, its a judgement on us for not accepting it. If you truly understood the theme, that Alm having noble blood instead of peasant blood wouldn't matter to you.

I would buy this (I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t because that’s the exact point made in Naruto vs Neji) if the story didn’t go out of its way to say Alm is better than everyone else because of his royal blood. Like both Gray and Tobin explicitly state that Alm is better than them because he’s “different” which foreshadows the later revelation of him being Royal. So yeah no it’s still contradictory.

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I would buy this (I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t because that’s the exact point made in Naruto vs Neji) if the story didn’t go out of its way to say Alm is better than everyone else because of his royal blood. Like both Gray and Tobin explicitly state that Alm is better than them because he’s “different” which foreshadows the later revelation of him being Royal. So yeah no it’s still contradictory.

Not quite, since Tobin and Gray don't take it as a sign to just give up then if they can't reach Alm's level. Instead, they still further themselves as far they can reach. Which is also a lesson worth learning. Not everyone is equal or can reach the same places, but that doesn't mean we should limit ourselves then by comparing ourselves with others and so we must strive to reach our limits, even if they don't match those of someone else's.

Not to mention, they still rose beyond mere commoners, so the lesson of the station of your birth not mattering is still upheld. Since being born commoners wasn't a sign they'd remain commoners.

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Not quite, since Tobin and Gray don't take it as a sign to just give up then if they can't reach Alm's level. Instead, they still further themselves as far they can reach. Which is also a lesson worth learning. Not everyone is equal or can reach the same places, but that doesn't mean we should limit ourselves then by comparing ourselves with others and so we must strive to reach our limits, even if they don't match those of someone else's.

Not to mention, they still rose beyond mere commoners, so the lesson of the station of your birth not mattering is still upheld. Since being born commoners wasn't a sign they'd remain commoners.

Again I’m not against the message. Naruto is my favorite manga of all time I would be lying if I didn’t understand the message as well as understand the frustration in trying to prove to others that it does actually follow that theme. Trust me I get it. I’m a Naruto fan this kind of discussion is nothing new to me. That said as a Naruto fan, I know when this is actually done poorly and this is one of those instances.