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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

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4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Again I’m not against the message. Naruto is my favorite manga of all time I would be lying if I didn’t understand the message as well as understand the frustration in trying to prove to others that it does actually follow that theme. Trust me I get it. I’m a Naruto fan this kind of discussion is nothing new to me. That said as a Naruto fan, I know when this is actually done poorly and this is one of those instances.  

How so? Because of Alm and his protagonist role? Despite there being a bunch of other characters who go through the same? Even then, Alm had to prove he was worthy of his birthright. The game shows us what happens when you take it for granted instead. *points to Lima IV and Berkut* So it didn't matter that Alm was born with privileges, he had to work to prove he could use them well and deserved to had them.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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26 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Counter point Faye and Rinea who weren’t in the Original Gaiden but make the mysoginy worse than it already was,

And both are a product of the times of the 3ds era. In the end its a mesh of old school FE misogyny, and new school FE misogyny.

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3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

How so? Because of Alm and his protagonist role? Despite there being a bunch of other characters who go through the same? Even then, Alm had to prove he was worthy of his birthright. The game shows us what happens when you take it for granted instead. *points to Lima IV and Berkut* So it didn't matter that Alm was born with privileges, he had to work to prove he could use them well and deserved to had them.

Because Alm is a chosen one with a special birthmark that was stated in the prophecy that said he was meant to bring peace to Valentia. He is literally defined by the circumstances of his birth because he is a chosen one. His worth is determined by the circumstances of his birth. This isn’t like a Naruto reincarnation or toad prophecy situation because in the reincarnation instance Naruto does overcome his destiny in that he didn’t kill Sasuke when destiny foretold that he would. In regards to the toad prophecy well the toad elder admitted he was wrong and that both Naruto and Nagato are children of prophecy. Like I bring up the Naruto comparison because there’s no instance of Alm trying to overcome the circumstances of his birth like with Naruto. I’m not saying they need to be the same but if you’re going to explore this idea then having your protagonist literally defined by the circumstances of their birth is just not a good look.

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7 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Because Alm is a chosen one with a special birthmark that was stated in the prophecy that said he was meant to bring peace to Valentia. He is literally defined by the circumstances of his birth because he is a chosen one. His worth is determined by the circumstances of his birth. This isn’t like a Naruto reincarnation or toad prophecy situation because in the reincarnation instance Naruto does overcome his destiny in that he didn’t kill Sasuke when destiny foretold that he would. In regards to the toad prophecy well the toad elder admitted he was wrong and that both Naruto and Nagato are children of prophecy. Like I bring up the Naruto comparison because there’s no instance of Alm trying to overcome the circumstances of his birth like with Naruto. I’m not saying they need to be the same but if you’re going to explore this idea then having your protagonist literally defined by the circumstances of their birth is just not a good look.

The thing about prophecies is that, they tend to be more self-fulfilling than most. Alm (and Celica) still had to work to make the prophecy come true. They were the handed the tools, yes, but they still had to work to use them effectively.

Also... Alm spends like 90% of the game without being defined by the circumstances of his birth. He doesn't get to wield the fact he's a prince since he never learns about it until the very end, he doesn't get Falchion or even the Royal Sword until he has already done quite the number of feats without them. One advantage that could be argued is getting to have someone like Mycen as a teacher, but then the other Ram kids also learned stuff from him. Mycen wasn't singling Alm out due to who he was.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The thing about prophecies is that, they tend to be more self-fulfilling than most. Alm (and Celica) still had to work to make the prophecy come true. They were the handed the tools, yes, but they still had to work to use them effectively.

Also... Alm spends like 90% of the game without being defined by the circumstances of his birth. He doesn't get to wield the fact he's a prince since he never learns about it until the very end, he doesn't get Falchion or even the Royal Sword until he has already done quite the number of feats without them. One advantage that could be argued is getting to have someone like Mycen as a teacher, but then the other Ram kids also learned stuff from him. Mycen wasn't singling Alm out due to who he was.

While that is true, the circumstances surrounding Alm’s birth and his bloodline never hinder him. He never overcomes any struggle that is the direct result of circumstances outside of his control regarding bloodline, lineage, and destiny. His status as a chosen one is literally defined by the fact that he was born with that birthmark and as a Royal of Rigel. Neither does any other character for that matter except for maybe Forscyth. His circumstances do define Who he is. If you wanna go by developer interviews they actually directly state Alm was defined by his circumstances cause they said Berkut is what Alm might have become had he been raised in Rigel. The fact that he was raised in Zofia is what made him the way he is and the story doesn’t even try to explore the nature vs nuture situation that might’ve actually made it work. They just abandon the plot point altogether once it’s revealed Alm is royal. The whole thematic through line just falls flat on its face because Alm is not hindered by the circumstances of his birth if anything it’s only a benefit to him.

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2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm not sure that matches up. Ashnard got his hands Reyson's sister and I think the medalion too at the time of the massacre during which Sephiran wasn't trying to awaken the goddess yet. Whether Ashnard got the medallion on the massacre or before it he already had it when he captured Reyson sister, which means he couldn't have gotten it from Sephiran.

If you look carefully at the Massacre flashback CG:

Spoiler

fe10-lehrans-despair.png

Zoom in if you must, a white-winged Heron girl at Sephiran's feet.

fe10-lehran-holding-the-medallion.png

And then you have this CG moments later. And the following words:

There is no need to wait for the covenant’s thousand years. Awaken! Oh, Goddess. Awaken…and judge.”

Ashnard was given the Medallion & heron by Seph, sometime shortly after the massacre, so RD seems to canonize it. Let's not forget that PoR had Leanne sleeping for two decades. Considering Lillia was already unconscious in the above CG, and the possibility that Seph could cast a sleep spell on her (Sleep staffs are a thing) that'd last long enough for him to bring her to Daein, it is entirely possible that she never knew that she had been brought to Ashy by her dark-winged ancestor. And thus she naturally assumed Ashy had been the one who had kidnapped her.

-Does it sound somewhat farfetched that Seph could:

  • Go from the depths of despair
  • To formulating the transfer of his medallion and kin laying at his feet
  • To deciding exactly who would get the two things
  • To traveling across Begnion into Daein without being noticed despite carrying a "murderous" bird
  • Convincing the man that he was serious about what he wanted them to do
  • And all within the confines of a few weeks or something?

Yes it does, but it's not entirely implausible.

Let's keep in mind the information we get on Ashy & the Medallion are from imperfect sources. And that we the players have no idea if IS had decided already or not in PoR all the minutiae of Ashnard's & Sephiran's relationship, including the stuff RD reveals or implies.

 

An issue here is the "Galdr of Release can only be sung by a descendant of Altina" bit, which Ashnard didn't know. This can be explicable if Seph himself did not know this at the time, and only discovered it later. A translation of the Japanese Extended Script of some lines from 4-F-5 go as follows (emphasis added):

I know. You sang the galldrar to save Yune… and since you, of the Heron tribe, are an avatar of order, you are able to control Yune’s emotions within the medallion. If you are in need of us during these thousand years… you may sing the galdr of release and awaken us both.

The official English translation on the other hand contradicts this, with the following phrasing for the not-Extended script:

“If you believe during this thousand years that you have created a world that has outgrown the atrocities of war… Or if you feel the world has fallen beyond hope of redemption, you may sing the galdr of release and awaken us both. Your heirs will possess that ability as well…

The Japanese suggests Seph could've mistakenly thought any Heron could do the job. This is totally different from the English!

Since his & Altina's child would be the first known Branded, Ashera could or could not have meant "you, of the Heron tribe ...and your Heron descendants" or not. She didn't have to specify genetic children, because it would be assumed all Beorc and Laguz would only produce more of their specific kind, so "Heron tribe" can but doesn't have to mean Lehran's descendants. As for whether Ashera could've known Altina and Lehran were in love and would consummate things shortly after her nap time began, -why would the heroine and the goddess servant bother an aloof goddess concerned about the world with talk of their love life?

-But this then begs the question of how the Heron tribe could've learned the "correct" answer, that only Altina (or rather Altina's descendants, specifically those bearing the power of the real father of her first child). Although Lillia and Reyson, learned Heron royalty, somehow did not know "Altina" was the name of the ancient heroine and first monarch of Begnion, whose importance you'd think would be acknowledged by all regardless of species, and especially venerated in Begnion itself. Volke acknowledges Lehran was one who traveled with the heroes who defeated the "Dark God", so Lehran wasn't whitewashed out of history. Maybe Dheghinsea, in his "rewriting the past" campaign, just so happened without thinking about it transferred the Galdr of Release capacity to Altina's descendants? But why didn't he leave the power with the Herons then, even if he couldn't speak of Lehran as the father of Altina's firstborn?

:KnollRoll:

The tiniest minutiae can get messy, it's natural that something like this would get wind up confusing. Yet at least it's this that gets as twisted as funnel cake, and not a plot aspect of the first degree.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

And both are a product of the times of the 3ds era. In the end its a mesh of old school FE misogyny, and new school FE misogyny.

I mean like awakening and Fates never had all their female characters completely defined by their relationship with a man some were but even in those cases there was more to their characters unlike in SoV. Like at least awakening and fates allow their female characters to be actual characters instead of one dimensional bricks whose sole purpose is to make the men look better like Faye, Rinea, Clair, and even Celica. You could also argue fanservice but if the dark mage designs are anything to go by it’s pretty equal opportunity. Also the fact that Leo and F!Corrin won the fates popularity polls should tell you a lot about the gender ratio of the Japanese player base. Fire Emblem fans has more female fans than you might think if popularity polls are anything to go by

Edited by Ottservia

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My god I go to bed and I miss two pages of this thread lmao

8 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Even if it does come off that way it still plays into his character arc pretty well. Like the whole point of Clive’s character is that he needs to realize that his decision to make Alm the leader of the deliverance was not a mistake because the value of such a position should not be determined by the circumstances of one’s birth but rather their ideals and convictions(again something that’s completely thrown out with the whole Alm is royal thing but we can ignore that for now) and him coming off as a bit of a dick here only really serves to reinforce that point if you ask me so I still don’t see the problem with it. I cannot see how it is contradictory.

It’s a bit of a different kind of dick though. I completely agree that Clive coming across as the “hypocrite” kind of dick in that scene was intended and reinforces that point. In Clives characterisation, dialogue and acting the game does that really well. He’s come so far with Alm and even then he’s still having doubts because of Alm’s “true” heritage, which Gray and Tobin rightly react to, because it’s unfair. But the point is basically that the timing makes him come across as the “manipulative piece of shit” kind of dick as well. Which doesn’t fit with the doubts he has been having throughout the game at this point.

46 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

While that is true, the circumstances surrounding Alm’s birth and his bloodline never hinder him. He never overcomes any struggle that is the direct result of circumstances outside of his control regarding bloodline, lineage, and destiny. His status as a chosen one is literally defined by the fact that he was born with that birthmark and as a Royal of Rigel. Neither does any other character for that matter except for maybe Forscyth. His circumstances do define Who he is. If you wanna go by developer interviews they actually directly state Alm was defined by his circumstances cause they said Berkut is what Alm might have become had he been raised in Rigel. The fact that he was raised in Zofia is what made him the way he is and the story doesn’t even try to explore the nature vs nuture situation that might’ve actually made it work. They just abandon the plot point altogether once it’s revealed Alm is royal. The whole thematic through line just falls flat on its face because Alm is not hindered by the circumstances of his birth if anything it’s only a benefit to him.

Well he does end up having to kill the only two remaining members of his birth family, which I think is a pretty decent consequence of his lineage.

Also throughout the game when the topic of Alm being king is brought up he always hates the idea (when Celica confronted him at the end of Act 2, Luthier and Clive at the Sluice gate, etc). It’s a responsibility he never asked for and was never prepared for. A leader of armies and a figure of rebellion, yeah, he could do that. Anything that required more than that? Nope. Being forced to kill the only people who could challenge his right to rule reinforces that idea that his destiny as king is a bittersweet path, and it’s something he could only feasibly accomplish with Celica at his side.

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

I mean like awakening and Fates never had all their female characters completely defined by their relationship with a man some were but even in those cases there was more to their characters unlike in SoV. Like at least awakening and fates allow their female characters to be actual characters instead of one dimensional bricks whose sole purpose is to make the men look better like Faye, Rinea, Clair, and even Celica. You could also argue fanservice but if the dark mage designs are anything to go by it’s pretty equal opportunity. 

me spamming quotes at you be like

But nah I just wanted to add that while I can agree with Faye, Rinea, and even kinda Celica I think you’re selling Clair a bit short. Her capture at the beginning ends up making Clive look worse, and colours our initial impression of him (though if you were talking about her rescue by Alm then fair). And (disregarding her performance as an actual unit), she’s a complete badass and I think her arc reflects that pretty well.

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2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean like awakening and Fates never had all their female characters completely defined by their relationship with a man some were but even in those cases there was more to their characters unlike in SoV. Like at least awakening and fates allow their female characters to be actual characters instead of one dimensional bricks whose sole purpose is to make the men look better like Faye, Rinea, Clair, and even Celica. You could also argue fanservice but if the dark mage designs are anything to go by it’s pretty equal opportunity. 

Faye is a chip off the same block as...you know what, I don't even need to name them, the comparison is that obvious. Rinea is just an Emmeryn that love Berkut instead of peace. The only way Clair makes the men look better is by being captured, an old artifact of Gaiden's design not something new (unless your comment is about her having a romantic option, in which case, I hate to tell you that almost all of the Awakening and Fates characters have those as well...). The notion that Celica's sole purpose is to make men look better is as absurd as claiming Luncina's sole purpose is to to make Chrom and Robin look better with her incompetence. Point being, Echoes is following in the footsteps of Awakening and Fates with some of its misogyny, and gaiden with the rest.

 

47 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

While that is true, the circumstances surrounding Alm’s birth and his bloodline never hinder him. He never overcomes any struggle that is the direct result of circumstances outside of his control regarding bloodline, lineage, and destiny.

Clive is moments away from betraying him when he discovers the truth of Alm's bloodline (and Alm has to overcome that through his words), Berkut's murderous attack is entirely because of Alm's linage (which he is forced to overcome through violence), and Jedah forcing him to fight Witch Celica is because of his destiny (requiring him to overcome it with an act of faith).

 

47 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

If you wanna go by developer interviews they actually directly state Alm was defined by his circumstances cause they said Berkut is what Alm might have become had he been raised in Rigel. The fact that he was raised in Zofia is what made him the way he is and the story doesn’t even try to explore the nature vs nuture situation that might’ve actually made it work.

...What do you think the nature vs. nurture debate is? This is either a mindboggling misunderstanding on your part, or as disingenuous as claiming all the lessons, and friends Naruto made while training are his birthright.

 

47 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

They just abandon the plot point altogether once it’s revealed Alm is royal. The whole thematic through line just falls flat on its face because Alm is not hindered by the circumstances of his birth if anything it’s only a benefit to him.

Spoiler

 

Alm: I will dedicate my life as emperor to ensuring such a thing doesn’t happen. And yes, I know as well as anyone that there will be losses along the way. I think I’ve learned that much by now… But when I think of the next thousand years, I don’t want this. I want to leave behind a world where we shape our lives by our own hands. Where we make our own mistakes and fix them—as many times as necessary. That’s a world worthy of a future.

Clive: …So be it. If you have the determination to see it through, I’ll not object. I am yours to command, Your Excellency.

Gray: Count me in! I’m not living my life bowing to Duma and his little idiots. I’ll take going hungry over that any day of the week.

Tobin: I… I’m just not sure.

Gray: Oh, quit your whining and hop on board already!

Tobin: If it were just me I would, but I have little brothers and sisters to think of.

Lukas: I will gladly take up a trowel and work the land with them.

Tobin: Wai—but you’re a noble, Lukas!

Lukas: Such things will mean precious little in the world ahead of us. Myself, I refuse to be controlled by Duma or go hungry. If it means working the barren earth, then I shall do just that.

Clair: And you won’t do it alone! In truth, I’ve always been curious about farming. I’m sure we can reap or sow or… whatever it is enough to stay alive. Though I admit, I think all this talk of doom and gloom is entirely premature.

Alm: This is great, guys. Count me in, too. I’m pretty handy with a plow, actually. I’ll show you guys how it’s done!

Clive: An emperor plowing the fields? I never thought I’d see the day.

This whole exchange about how even those as noble, and mighty as the emperor will have to plow the fields, despite their high birth happens after the very late game reveal of his royalty. This theme about the nature of one birth not defining them doesn't magically go away later into the game, you just don't remember the game well enough not to actively contradict it while arguing...

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35 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

Well he does end up having to kill the only two remaining members of his birth family, which I think is a pretty decent consequence of his lineage.

Also throughout the game when the topic of Alm being king is brought up he always hates the idea (when Celica confronted him at the end of Act 2, Luthier and Clive at the Sluice gate, etc). It’s a responsibility he never asked for and was never prepared for. A leader of armies and a figure of rebellion, yeah, he could do that. Anything that required more than that? Nope. Being forced to kill the only people who could challenge his right to rule reinforces that idea that his destiny as king is a bittersweet path, and it’s something he could only feasibly accomplish with Celica at his side.

Yes but none of those things directly hinder him at all. Him being rigelian or branded does not hinder him at all. It does not make his life worse. Again he doesn’t struggle due to any circumstance directly outside of his control in regards to his lineage. Him killing his family does relate to it yes but not in the way where it involves him overcoming problems brought upon him by his lineage. In fact it’s the opposite. He doesn’t overcome or reject his lineage he embraces it by the end because he does become king by the end of the story. Like him killing Rudolf isn’t him overcoming the circumstances of his birth. It’s a tragic moment that’s supposed to reveal the flaws in his ideals. Because Alm does indeed try to argue lineage doesn’t matter but his lineage is what defines his greatest character moments because it’s only after embracing his heritage that he goes into Duma tower with the resolve he needs. Alm almost never tries to overcome the circumstances of his birth and the only he really does try he proves the oppsing side correct. Berkut and Fernand say a commoner cannot lead and only nobility are suited to lead because that is their birthright. Which of course Alm refutes but he’s a royal himself so it just rings hollow. Also Gray and Tobin directly Alm is a natural born leader because he’s different from them which is supposed  to foreshadow the later revelation. It is thematically contradictory no matter how you slice it. 
 

As @vanguard333 can attest to it isn’t like a Naruto vs Neji situation where Naruto was labeled a monster and a failure because of the nine tails inside of him so him beating Neji with the very same power that branded him an outcast shows that he’s more than just a monster. He isn’t a monster and he proves that by turning his disadvantages into advantages. 

57 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

But nah I just wanted to add that while I can agree with Faye, Rinea, and even kinda Celica I think you’re selling Clair a bit short. Her capture at the beginning ends up making Clive look worse, and colours our initial impression of him (though if you were talking about her rescue by Alm then fair). And (disregarding her performance as an actual unit), she’s a complete badass and I think her arc reflects that pretty well.

When I mentioned Clair I was referring to her supports with Gray which are just awful 

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54 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

As @vanguard333 can attest to it isn’t like a Naruto vs Neji situation where Naruto was labeled a monster and a failure because of the nine tails inside of him so him beating Neji with the very same power that branded him an outcast shows that he’s more than just a monster. He isn’t a monster and he proves that by turning his disadvantages into advantages. 

I haven't read your argument with Anathaco so I don't know the context. I'm guessing from the sentences I removed from the quote that you're arguing about Alm's heritage?

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10 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Yes but none of those things directly hinder him at all. Him being rigelian or branded does not hinder him at all. It does not make his life worse. Again he doesn’t struggle due to any circumstance directly outside of his control in regards to his lineage. Him killing his family does relate to it yes but not in the way where it involves him overcoming problems brought upon him by his lineage. In fact it’s the opposite. He doesn’t overcome or reject his lineage he embraces it by the end because he does become king by the end of the story. Like him killing Rudolf isn’t him overcoming the circumstances of his birth. It’s a tragic moment that’s supposed to reveal the flaws in his ideals. Because Alm does indeed try to argue lineage doesn’t matter but his lineage is what defines his greatest character moments because it’s only after embracing his heritage that he goes into Duma tower with the resolve he needs. Alm almost never tries to overcome the circumstances of his birth and the only he really does try he proves the oppsing side correct. Berkut and Fernand say a commoner cannot lead and only nobility are suited to lead because that is their birthright. Which of course Alm refutes but he’s a royal himself so it just rings hollow. Also Gray and Tobin directly Alm is a natural born leader because he’s different from them which is supposed  to foreshadow the later revelation. It is thematically contradictory no matter how you slice it. 
 

As @vanguard333 can attest to it isn’t like a Naruto vs Neji situation where Naruto was labeled a monster and a failure because of the nine tails inside of him so him beating Neji with the very same power that branded him an outcast shows that he’s more than just a monster. He isn’t a monster and he proves that by turning his disadvantages into advantages. 

 

The nitpicky part of me would like to point out that killing your dad is a pretty good way to make your life worse.

ok now onto the actual argument.

From what I understand, the Naruto thing is predicated on his heritage being a bad thing not just to himself, but it also makes him an outcast to others as well, so him using it as a strength is a sign of growth and plays into the themes of the story. He proves that what was seen as a weakness is actually a strength. That is good, thematically speaking.

But I don’t think that’s what Echoes is going for. If we play out that analogy in this game, Alm being king makes him… despised by everyone including himself, and Alm fulfilling the prophecy shows the world that being a king has advantages and can be turned from a weakness into a strength. And while an attitude on kings and nobility so different from the norm would make for an insanely entertaining story in its own right, that’s very clearly not an attitude Echoes takes.

Heritage isn’t meant to be a hindrance that you work towards overcoming. Echoes isn’t trying to say that there is inherent value in people no matter what side/heritage they’re from (like Naruto). It’s trying to say that there is inherent value in every side/heritage. 

Alm’s noble heritage and common background mean he struggles with both the good and the bad of both worlds. He’s been taught the value of humility and hard work yet wants to actually make his mark on the world- and gets visibly pissed when people imply that his station makes him less capable than he is. But he pushes on, his innate strength proves him worthy- and only then does everyone find out that he actually is a king. Now his conflict changes. He now ostensibly has power and nobody can deny it, not even Berkut. But now his actions have more weight, and he has to take on a whole new amount of responsibility. But, again, he pushes through, his ideals, gleaned from his background, keep him grounded in the face of his new position. 

Throughout the game, that’s the defining link. The weaknesses of one aspect of his history are made up for by the strengths of the other. And he spends most of the game denying this, preferring to be seen as a leader rather than as a king, his blue blood line to Celica in Act 2, and so on and so forth. While he never crosses the line to actively putting nobles down (like Berkut and Fernand to commoners), it’s clear he holds some biases against them, and wants to believe that anyone can make their own way in the world. And, as you say, he’s proven wrong in the end. 

But he grows from that, he accepts his responsibility, and accepts that he has much to learn from those he had previously dismissed, shown in his attempts to help Berkut in Act 5. Alm’s big character moment isn’t him proving that station doesn’t matter, it’s him realising that it does. 

Ultimately, the contradiction between Alm’s lineage and his ideals is what causes his growth and fuels the theme of co-operation and finding the middle ground which ties the story together.

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32 minutes ago, Anathaco said:
 

The nitpicky part of me would like to point out that killing your dad is a pretty good way to make your life worse.

ok now onto the actual argument.

From what I understand, the Naruto thing is predicated on his heritage being a bad thing not just to himself, but it also makes him an outcast to others as well, so him using it as a strength is a sign of growth and plays into the themes of the story. He proves that what was seen as a weakness is actually a strength. That is good, thematically speaking.

But I don’t think that’s what Echoes is going for. If we play out that analogy in this game, Alm being king makes him… despised by everyone including himself, and Alm fulfilling the prophecy shows the world that being a king has advantages and can be turned from a weakness into a strength. And while an attitude on kings and nobility so different from the norm would make for an insanely entertaining story in its own right, that’s very clearly not an attitude Echoes takes.

Heritage isn’t meant to be a hindrance that you work towards overcoming. Echoes isn’t trying to say that there is inherent value in people no matter what side/heritage they’re from (like Naruto). It’s trying to say that there is inherent value in every side/heritage. 

Alm’s noble heritage and common background mean he struggles with both the good and the bad of both worlds. He’s been taught the value of humility and hard work yet wants to actually make his mark on the world- and gets visibly pissed when people imply that his station makes him less capable than he is. But he pushes on, his innate strength proves him worthy- and only then does everyone find out that he actually is a king. Now his conflict changes. He now ostensibly has power and nobody can deny it, not even Berkut. But now his actions have more weight, and he has to take on a whole new amount of responsibility. But, again, he pushes through, his ideals, gleaned from his background, keep him grounded in the face of his new position. 

Throughout the game, that’s the defining link. The weaknesses of one aspect of his history are made up for by the strengths of the other. And he spends most of the game denying this, preferring to be seen as a leader rather than as a king, his blue blood line to Celica in Act 2, and so on and so forth. While he never crosses the line to actively putting nobles down (like Berkut and Fernand to commoners), it’s clear he holds some biases against them, and wants to believe that anyone can make their own way in the world. And, as you say, he’s proven wrong in the end. 

But he grows from that, he accepts his responsibility, and accepts that he has much to learn from those he had previously dismissed, shown in his attempts to help Berkut in Act 5. Alm’s big character moment isn’t him proving that station doesn’t matter, it’s him realising that it does. 

Ultimately, the contradiction between Alm’s lineage and his ideals is what causes his growth and fuels the theme of co-operation and finding the middle ground which ties the story together.

You know that would be great if it any of that was in the story itself but it’s not. That doesn’t answer the contradiction of Alm advocating that its not a noble’s birthright to rule but his ideals that determines such a status and that anyone with the right ideals can be a king be they noble or commoner when he himself is a counter example to his own point because his right to rule is a direct result of his birthright and we don’t a see a single commoner in a position of leadership in this story.

 

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I haven't read your argument with Anathaco so I don't know the context. I'm guessing from the sentences I removed from the quote that you're arguing about Alm's heritage?

Yep, I make the Naruto comparison because of just how similar of an argument it is.

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Just now, Ottservia said:

Yep, I make the Naruto comparison because of just how similar of an argument it is.

I see. Just to be clear, are you arguing that how SoV handled Alm's true heritage and the topic of nobility and classism was bad or good?

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1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. Just to be clear, are you arguing that how SoV handled Alm's true heritage and the topic of nobility and classism was bad or good?

It’s terribly handled because Alm himself is direct counter example to his own argument because he was a royal that was born to lead

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1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

It’s terribly handled because Alm himself is direct counter example to his own argument because he was a royal that was born to lead

I see. I agree; the issue of Alm's heritage and the topic of nobility & classism is terribly handled in Shadows of Valentia.

Hm... Let's see what I can help you with in this argument...

 

45 minutes ago, Anathaco said:
From what I understand, the Naruto thing is predicated on his heritage being a bad thing not just to himself, but it also makes him an outcast to others as well, so him using it as a strength is a sign of growth and plays into the themes of the story. He proves that what was seen as a weakness is actually a strength. That is good, thematically speaking.

Naruto's heritage isn't a bad thing; he's the son of the fourth Hokage (the title given to the leader of the ninja village Naruto is born and raised in). Of course, for most of the series, only a select few characters actually know about Naruto's heritage (somewhat similar to Alm in that regard), and the list does not include Naruto himself.

But anyway; Naruto's dilemma in the series is that he's all alone: on the day he was born, the village was attacked by the Nine-Tailed Fox and his parents were killed; his father ended up saving the village by sealing the Nine-Tailed Fox inside Naruto. This led to almost everyone in the village associating him with the Nine-Tailed Fox and hating him for it, so he spent his whole life up until around age 12 completely alone. As a result, he is desperate to win the approval of the village that considers an outcast and a loser and he hopes to do so by becoming Hokage.

In the Naruto vs Neji fight, he's up against Neji, who is considered among the best of the best within the ninjas-in-training. Neji's heritage is an issue for him (Neji): he's part of the branch family of a prominent ninja clan that treats its branch families as, well, expendable servants. Unlike Naruto, who is desperate to escape the cage that society placed him in, Neji believes that that's impossible and that Naruto is a fool for trying. Naruto the loser beating Neji the prodigy, and using the very power that was the cause of Naruto being an outsider in the first place, demonstrates to Neji that it is possible.

Of course, there's also another personal motivation in that Naruto is avenging Hinata (a shy member of the main family of that clan and the only person at that point in the story that actually looks up to Naruto) that Neji beat to a pulp earlier in the tournament arc, but that's largely beside the point.

 

Anyway, onto Alm, I honestly don't understand why they focused so much on classism as a topic when the apparent main themes of the game are, "the way of the sword or the way of the heart, and people with different ideologies needing to learn to work together for a better future". Partly as a result of that misplaced attention, those more present themes are also extremely mishandled.

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27 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

You know that would be great if it any of that was in the story itself but it’s not.

[citation needed]

 

7 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That doesn’t answer the contradiction of Alm advocating that its not a noble’s birthright to rule but his ideals that determines such a status and that anyone with the right ideals can be a king be they noble or commoner when he himself is a counter example to his own point because his right to rule is a direct result of his birthright and we don’t a see a single commoner in a position of leadership in this story.

You might want to reread the ending, where either Jesse, or Kamui become king of the lands once held by Greith despite their common birth. Or if you are looking for an earlier instance there is Lieutenant Forsyth. Or even earlier with Mycen being elevated from commoner to general even before the game began...You keep including easily disproven factual errors in your arguments about SoV...

 

31 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

It’s terribly handled because Alm himself is direct counter example to his own argument because he was a royal that was born to lead

So Alm's noble blood leaves him incapable of having the right ideals to lead? That only holds water if you are still under the mistaken belief that noble vs. commoner was the theme they were going for. Like the ending shows, both common and noble can be king.

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1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

You know that would be great if it any of that was in the story itself but it’s not. That doesn’t answer the contradiction of Alm advocating that its not a noble’s birthright to rule but his ideals that determines such a status and that anyone with the right ideals can be a king be they noble or commoner when he himself is a counter example to his own point because his right to rule is a direct result of his birthright and we don’t a see a single commoner in a position of leadership in this story.

The ideals thing is more of a Clive point than an Alm one, isn’t it? Off the top of my head I can only remember Alm saying that people’s worth should never be determined by the station of their birth, and that his station doesn’t matter, he’s here because he was called. But yes, that is likely a belief Alm holds. Neither he nor Clive is proven wrong in that respect though, since Berkut betraying the few ideals he had directly led to his downfall, and Alm sticking to his even when Clive points out that his position as King must inform his decisions over everything else directly leads to his success in the final fight.

As for the station thing, he is still ultimately right since noble and commoner alike kick ass in the final fight. It’s his disdain for nobility that his parentage is a counter-example to, and one that he learns from and grows from.

Anyway, what about Mycen? He was a commoner before ascending in the military and eventually becoming a Count, and even Fernand indirectly acknowledges him as such by calling his story “a disgrace to the Zofian nobility”. As well as being a general he was seemingly close with the king until Desaix arranged to drive them apart and have him banished.

oh lol seems I was beaten to that point haha.

Also whoops forgot to mention @vanguard333 I see. I knew something was up with Naruto but assumed the nine-tails thing was it, so thanks for correcting me on that. 
 

So for my metaphor, Alm uses his commoner status to his advantage to win- which to be fair it actually is a factor.

Edited by Anathaco

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I remember bringing that point to him in another thread. He ignored it. He just kept repeating Alm Alm Alm.

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24 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

So Alm's noble blood leaves him incapable of having the right ideals to lead? That only holds water if you are still under the mistaken belief that noble vs. commoner was the theme they were going for. Like the ending shows, both common and noble can be king.

Alm having the right ideals to lead is honestly a problem with the game, but for a different reason: perhaps the heaviest focus of the game is on duality: Mila and Duma torn apart and dividing Valentia by their different ideologies, Alm and Celica promises never to let anything like that come between them, both countries beginning to crack from their ideologies reaching their logical conclusion, and with Alm pursuing to solve the crises through conflict while Celica tries to solve through investigation and finding Mila ("the way of the sword or the way of the heart"). The natural and logical resolution for such a buildup would be that neither Alm nor Celica have all the answers; that both of them risk falling astray by separately holding onto their ideals, and that they need to come together and work together. And yet, Alm has all the answers while Celica gets her soul eaten by Duma. That's inherently contradictive.

Alm is just so amazing and can do no wrong; all the girls want him and all the guys want to be him, and no one can stop talking about how there was always something just so special about him and none of them could figure out what it is... and he's revealed to have been secret royalty. Can you seriously not see why that's a problem?

Edited by vanguard333

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Alm's actions are more dictated by his upbringing in Ram than his royal origins. True, we see in Jugdral just what is possible for dragon-blessed bloodlines to do, but ultimately... Alm still forged his ideals and did his actions thanks to the commoner POV he grew up with. Not because of said special blood. Proving how it matters little that he was secretly royalty. His character was not determined by his birthright, or chained to it like Lima IV's or Berkut's were.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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Yeah. Sorry for that, but I just sometimes don't bother to quote if there's no other post in-between and I know the person will come back to the thread anyway. Isn't that how it's usually done anyway?

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yeah. Sorry for that, but I just sometimes don't bother to quote if there's no other post in-between and I know the person will come back to the thread anyway.

I see.

In that case, I don't see how what you said really is a response to what I said. The argument you tried to make doesn't seem to connect in any way to anything that I said.

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2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see.

In that case, I don't see how what you said really is a response to what I said. The argument you tried to make doesn't seem to connect in any way to anything that I said.

It was a response to the last isolated portion. About how Alm seemed special then the reveal that yes, he was of royal birth. My point is that most of that "specialness" is preambled by the actions he does, which are not a result of his special bloodline but rather more to his upbringing.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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