What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[DoomRPG]

11 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

What does Awakening have to do with this? Anyway, the thing is that Felicia and Jakob can get level 15 skills long before anyone else, and can pass those down to children (personally, I prefer the air of Inspiration). And tbf, I think Wyvern Elise and Vow of Friendship are overrated. 

Villager sucks, yes, but needing a heart seal that others could have put to better use says nothing good of Mozu at all.

Saying Mozu is closer to Ross doesn't make her sound worth it, to be blunt. I find Ross is rather bad (and overrated) too.

I'm saying "This isn't awakening" as in. "Even on higher difficulties. A frederick-like jeigan is not required."
A fairer point on the inheritance to be honest. That's what makes early promoted servants to be useful in my opinion. Not their combat.

Wyvern Elise is pretty overrated if you intend to bench Elise after parenting. Which you should do if your not instant reclassing. Without bolt axe Elise's lategame is negligible at best from what I've seen.

Vow of Friendship is not overrated, no idea what your smoking. A conditional +3 STR and +3 DEF is crazy. Especially early on when your units struggle to reach those exact benchmarks (Unless they are Effie, and she has other issues. Like being an armor unit.)

If VoF was like "+6 in every stat except STR DEF SPD." for the same condition I'd probably agree with you. But +3 STR and def early game is excellent.

Balthus arguably has the best non XP boosting personal skill in the entire series. And his is just a doubled Silas with the same condition being applied to himself instead of the avatar.

Supportive is technically better but it requires support to actually be built. And since Silas and Avatar are easy to buddy up. Early game the two can easily give Silas the equivalent of like. Ten level ups. When your units themselves are only just reaching the level ten benchmark. (Except Avatar, because Nobility is a dumb skill.)

VoF does lose a lot of its value later on yes.
It does become outclassed by Rose's thorns.
But even in chapter ten itself. I'd say Silas with VoF on will actually gain more value from his PS than Camilla will provide with thorns. its only in chapter 11 and on where VoF becomes less useful.

Edit 1: I forgot your other points because irl stuff lol.

Even if you give the first heart seal to the servant. The second is the one I suggest using on Mozu anyway. Who are you going to use it on if Wyvern Elise (who should be first or not at all.) Isn't it? I'd assume corrin but Ch.15 is custom built to grind Corrin's weapon rank and harvest skills anyway. You don't need the second on Corrin. Third or fourth yeah, but not the second. Mozu is basically ideal for the second one. Nobody else needs it right that moment but her, and chapter 10 has pegasi for her to harvest for EXP to put her growths to use.

Especially alongside Effie, and while Effie doesn't want villager. She does want Archer. Either to pass down its skills, or to use it herself (Quick draw stacks with her PS wonderfully.) Mozu+Effie is an easy grind and benefits both (Former with XP. Latter with archer.)

Ross would probably be seen in better light if SS growth rates weren't sucked into Seth.   His GR are abysmal, but its not like he needs them for SS
But more importantly I really hope your not going to suggest Ross is worst than donnel. The villager unit that has nothing going for him and is the villager unit that's either the most asinine (archer abuse) or straight up most difficult to train? How overrated do you think Ross is?
Awakening even has infinite leveling and several busted set ups. The former makes aptitude moot, the latter Donnel has zero access to.

Edited January 3, 2022 by DoomRPG
Entered early

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, DoomRPG said:

Vow of Friendship is not overrated, no idea what your smoking. A conditional +3 STR and +3 DEF is crazy. Especially early on when your units struggle to reach those exact benchmarks (Unless they are Effie, and she has other issues. Like being an armor unit.)

It is when you realize that leaving Corrin half dead and unhealed is about as smart as robbing a police station, as in general, having Corrin healthy and in the vanguard is going to do me more good than having him missing half his HP just to boost Silas.

1 hour ago, DoomRPG said:

Wyvern Elise is pretty overrated if you intend to bench Elise after parenting. Which you should do if your not instant reclassing. Without bolt axe Elise's lategame is negligible at best from what I've seen.

Bench Elise?! What the hell are you smoking? Because I DON'T want any of it. That said, using the Bolt Axe on someone who has lousy skill (like Elise!) is just asking to miss more than stormtroopers.

1 hour ago, DoomRPG said:

Even if you give the first heart seal to the servant. The second is the one I suggest using on Mozu anyway. Who are you going to use it on if Wyvern Elise (who should be first or not at all.) Isn't it? I'd assume corrin but Ch.15 is custom built to grind Corrin's weapon rank and harvest skills anyway. You don't need the second on Corrin. Third or fourth yeah, but not the second. Mozu is basically ideal for the second one. Nobody else needs it right that moment but her, and chapter 10 has pegasi for her to harvest for EXP to put her growths to use.

Especially alongside Effie, and while Effie doesn't want villager. She does want Archer. Either to pass down its skills, or to use it herself (Quick draw stacks with her PS wonderfully.) Mozu+Effie is an easy grind and benefits both (Former with XP. Latter with archer.)

Unfortunately for Mozu, Anna tends to be relevant around that time and can do anti-air duties without the need for the copious babysitting Mozu would need. 

1 hour ago, DoomRPG said:

Ross would probably be seen in better light if SS growth rates weren't sucked into Seth.   His GR are abysmal, but its not like he needs them for SS
But more importantly I really hope your not going to suggest Ross is worst than donnel. The villager unit that has nothing going for him and is the villager unit that's either the most asinine (archer abuse) or straight up most difficult to train? How overrated do you think Ross is?
Awakening even has infinite leveling and several busted set ups. The former makes aptitude moot, the latter Donnel has zero access to.

How overrated do I think Ross is? To put it simply, I consider Ross to be a high-investment unit that offers no notable returns.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[DoomRPG]

5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

It is when you realize that leaving Corrin half dead and unhealed is about as smart as robbing a police station, as in general, having Corrin healthy and in the vanguard is going to do me more good than having him missing half his HP just to boost Silas.

Bench Elise?! What the hell are you smoking? Because I DON'T want any of it. That said, using the Bolt Axe on someone who has lousy skill (like Elise!) is just asking to miss more than stormtroopers.

Unfortunately for Mozu, Anna tends to be relevant around that time and can do anti-air duties without the need for the copious babysitting Mozu would need. 

How overrated do I think Ross is? To put it simply, I consider Ross to be a high-investment unit that offers no notable returns.

You know that if Corrin is backpacking they can't die right? This is especially true when they're are acting as Silas's steroids.This is triply true in the early game when even on lunatic enemies don't have their inevitable ends.

As for accuracy problems. 1. Elise's high luck serves as a band-aid. 2. Unless your running a full axe team, chances are Elise with bolt axe is probably the only member with notable enough accuracy issues to require skill books. Here's an unpopular opinion. When only one unit needs a stat booster they can monopolize it make themselves leagues better than they "should" be. (Gonzales is a good example if you go Illia route. Chances are most units will hit fine by then. Except gonzales. So he can use skillbooks to turn 60 into 80+ This doesn't apply to Sacae route where skill books go on Miledy or Perceviel so they can maybe kill Gel within their lifetime.)
As for benching Elise if your having her try and go strategist or something... Yes. You can get inspiration just fine from Felicia/Jakob. Lily's poise doesn't help when it puts Elise into mortal peril because every enemy group has somebody with 2 range. (unlike cam who can be given a handaxe and go 'lul' should somebody attack her. Especially in attack stance.)

Anna is DLC only in Fates last I checked. Not a unit every player has access too. I'm one of them.
Also "Copius babysitting" might be true if you do Mozu literally right away. And if you do that. Yeah Mozu isn't worth it because she drains XP your other units could use! But if you wait until chapter 9. Your units barely gain any XP from the faceless. They benefit most from support building and WEXP progression at that point. Which means... Mozu's opportunity cost plummets, she's the only one getting XP! Your other units can focus on supports while they babysit Mozu.
And after CH.9 is 10. Which has fliers archer mozu can mulch. After that. Mozu probably has caught up completely, perhaps even outstripped some units already. That's two chapters.
I think people would like trainees a lot more if they only needed two chapters, one of which is incredibly easy. (The next one admittedly hard.) before they've caught up or already surpassed a few units. Instead of requiring like 13+ (Donnel) or never being worth it ever. (SS recruits. Including Ross.)

And yeah. I agree Ross is overrated in the sense he's still bad. its just SS is omega easy. Ultra effortless. Incredibly thoughtless. Ross is still the best out of garbage. If only due to the fact Berserkers are silly. (and that his closest competition, Garcia, is about just as awful as Ross.)

I'd say trainee usefulness goes
Donnel - Amelia - Ewan - Ross -Cyril - Mozu.

And of those I'm only dying on the hill that Mozu is good. I don't think Cyril is good, he's just not "bad" The only 3H students that are truly awful are Raphael and Caspar. Both of whom have strictly superior alternatives. (Raphael's replacement admittedly requires DLC. Or going BL.)




 

[Dark Holy Elf]

I think Mozu is problematic but she definitely has some use on Conquest, just because you don't have many options for good archers. I think she's one of the less useful units in Conquest (because she needs a lot of investment, and "good archer" is a somewhat iffy niche for the usual FE archer reasons), but I also think Conquest does a good job of giving just about everyone a niche.

She is also legitimately one of the best boss-killers later, as Snowfire's image showed.

54 minutes ago, DoomRPG said:

Chances are most units will hit fine by then. Except gonzales. So he can use skillbooks to turn 60 into 80+ This doesn't apply to Sacae route where skill books go on Miledy or Perceviel so they can maybe kill Gel within their lifetime.)

Gonzales wishes secret books were that effective. There are only two in the entire game prior to Chapter 21's secret shop... and the second is Ilia Chapter 18 (or never at all on Sacae). So he spends over half of his availability with access to +4 hit from stat boosters at most. (And I'd say anyone who uses a javelin, hand axe, or nosferatu could use more hit in that game tbh.)

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, DoomRPG said:

You know that if Corrin is backpacking they can't die right? This is especially true when they're are acting as Silas's steroids.This is triply true in the early game when even on lunatic enemies don't have their inevitable ends.

That doesn't make it sound any less moronic; if anything, it only makes it even worse. 

1 hour ago, DoomRPG said:

As for accuracy problems. 1. Elise's high luck serves as a band-aid. 2. Unless your running a full axe team, chances are Elise with bolt axe is probably the only member with notable enough accuracy issues to require skill books. Here's an unpopular opinion. When only one unit needs a stat booster they can monopolize it make themselves leagues better than they "should" be. (Gonzales is a good example if you go Illia route. Chances are most units will hit fine by then. Except gonzales. So he can use skillbooks to turn 60 into 80+ This doesn't apply to Sacae route where skill books go on Miledy or Perceviel so they can maybe kill Gel within their lifetime.)
As for benching Elise if your having her try and go strategist or something... Yes. You can get inspiration just fine from Felicia/Jakob. Lily's poise doesn't help when it puts Elise into mortal peril because every enemy group has somebody with 2 range. (unlike cam who can be given a handaxe and go 'lul' should somebody attack her. Especially in attack stance.)

Except not really; she'll still have hit issues because you're having her use an inaccurate weapon type, and high luck does not do enough to patch that up. Second, I'd find a full team better in a game like this where the experience dropoff makes low-manning not as viable as it was in prior games. Anyways, I disagree there; giving Gonzales skill books doesn't change much of anything because he's still gonna have shaky accuracy against most enemies simply because axes have godawful accuracy (of course, the fact that there are only two secret books in the game barring secret shops doesn't help his case either, nor does it that one of those is on one end of the route split).

1 hour ago, DoomRPG said:

Anna is DLC only in Fates last I checked. Not a unit every player has access too. I'm one of them.
Also "Copius babysitting" might be true if you do Mozu literally right away. And if you do that. Yeah Mozu isn't worth it because she drains XP your other units could use! But if you wait until chapter 9. Your units barely gain any XP from the faceless. They benefit most from support building and WEXP progression at that point. Which means... Mozu's opportunity cost plummets, she's the only one getting XP! Your other units can focus on supports while they babysit Mozu.
And after CH.9 is 10. Which has fliers archer mozu can mulch. After that. Mozu probably has caught up completely, perhaps even outstripped some units already. That's two chapters.
I think people would like trainees a lot more if they only needed two chapters, one of which is incredibly easy. (The next one admittedly hard.) before they've caught up or already surpassed a few units. Instead of requiring like 13+ (Donnel) or never being worth it ever. (SS recruits. Including Ross.)

Fair point. There's still Nina, though (if you're willing to grind supports in castle battles, anyways, which I'd do if I didn't have DLC simply because I hate Niles's guts; that loser is one of the worst archers I've ever had the displeasure of seeing, and he's in a game where they're supposed to be good. Bah!). Anyhow, Mozu would still need a ton of babying to be worth anything because she does piddle damage to the Faceless. And needing to spoonfeed her most of her paralogue does NOT make her sound good to me; if anything, it sounds like you're digging her an even deeper hole. I already find her a hard sell as is, and you're hurting her already flimsy case more than you're helping it.

1 hour ago, DoomRPG said:

And yeah. I agree Ross is overrated in the sense he's still bad. its just SS is omega easy. Ultra effortless. Incredibly thoughtless. Ross is still the best out of garbage. If only due to the fact Berserkers are silly. (and that his closest competition, Garcia, is about just as awful as Ross.)

And yet he's so slow he struggles to double anything that isn't either massively weighed down or something that literally anyone can double. Honestly, I'd consider Amelia better simply because having cav access is great.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[DoomRPG]

10 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That doesn't make it sound any less moronic; if anything, it only makes it even worse. 

Except not really; she'll still have hit issues because you're having her use an inaccurate weapon type, and high luck does not do enough to patch that up. Second, I'd find a full team better in a game like this where the experience dropoff makes low-manning not as viable as it was in prior games. Anyways, I disagree there; giving Gonzales skill books doesn't change much of anything because he's still gonna have shaky accuracy against most enemies simply because axes have godawful accuracy (of course, the fact that there are only two secret books in the game barring secret shops doesn't help his case either, nor does it that one of those is on one end of the route split).

Fair point. There's still Nina, though (if you're willing to grind supports in castle battles, anyways, which I'd do if I didn't have DLC simply because I hate Niles's guts; that loser is one of the worst archers I've ever had the displeasure of seeing, and he's in a game where they're supposed to be good. Bah!). Anyhow, Mozu would still need a ton of babying to be worth anything because she does piddle damage to the Faceless. And needing to spoonfeed her most of her paralogue does NOT make her sound good to me; if anything, it sounds like you're digging her an even deeper hole. I already find her a hard sell as is, and you're hurting her already flimsy case more than you're helping it.

And yet he's so slow he struggles to double anything that isn't either massively weighed down or something that literally anyone can double. Honestly, I'd consider Amelia better simply because having cav access is great.

I coulda sworn there were more secret books in FE6. Clearly my memory was wrong.

Anyway as for castle battles. Are you referring to the invasions or DLC battles? I'd say invasions are fair game for something anyone can do. DLC battles less so.

And as for the mozu point.

Let me explain this in as clear and concise a manner as possible.

If you do Mozu's chapter early. I agree that she is not worth it. The XP from the faceless is better served on your other units.

Additionally. Giving Mozu the first and not second heart seal is not a large opportunity cost. It is in fact. A massive opportunity cost, bordering on an objective strategic failure. (I'd argue it IS an objective strategic failure.) First heart seal belongs to Elise if going wyvern. Or servant for inheriting the big value skills.
In other words. I agree. That immediate Mozu. Is a bad. Idea. That makes her NOT worth it.

Do you understand that I agree that Mozu gotten immediately is a terrible idea? I agree that is not worth the hassle and the reward you get is not only delayed. It is almost certainly weaker overall.

If you wait until chapter nine is complete. Than Mozu's paralogue has enemies (the faceless) that are now minimal gain for your units. They will be better served grinding support points with the rare bits of WEXP they can get from babysitting Mozu.
Its not even hard. It really isn't. I can do it without hassle, and I suck at FE. Is it super omega speedy beat the entire game in less than 20 turns? No. But its not hard. Just reclass with a heart seal that isn't in high demand. The second heart seal is not as high in demand as the first

And your reward is an archer. Who's leagues better than Niles. (And given that Niles is aggressively below average in my opinion that isn't hard.) She can take over his anti-pegasus duties in chapter ten. Which will continue to feed her tons of XP for little trouble. This is her second chapter with this strategy btw. Its not hard. Zero effort.
Additionally during the following chapters beyond her paralogue (so 10 11/ invasion 1 12 to a lesser extent.) Mozu can build support with Effie, saving her from the horrendous AK class line. To give her skills like quick draw which makes Effie an A-lister instead of a liability.

Mozu isn't an amazing trainee because she's the best unit in your team. She's an amazing trainee because she takes negligible effort to become a top 5 member of your army. And that top five is with people like Camilla, Corrin, and Xander. Characters who are practically guaranteed to hog N1.N2.N3 no matter what you think of them.

Yes. If you do Mozu's paralogue right away her opportunity cost skyrockets and she becomes NOT worth it.
But do it ch.9 with the second heart seal and deploy her in the following chapters and she works great. Better than Niles or Nyx by a longshot.

Even if this Mozu strat was incredibly asinine and painful (its not despite what you may believe.) It takes two chapters. TWO chapters. One of which is a joke. Yes. Chapter ten is hard. Mozu's paralogue is not.
And your reward is an excellent attack stance unit whose also very fast, has good strength, and gets the superb quick draw skill not just for herself, but whoever A+ supports her.

Having a good Mozu who only requires 1 frickin chapter of "burden" is worth the reward.  (I put burden in air quotes because Mozu is still OHKOing pegasus reinforcements.)
Having a Mozu that spends chapter 7-9 in villager (or beyond if you use the second HS on someone else.) NOT. Worth the reward.

If Donnel reclassed into Mercenary that eclipsed other shepards right after his recruiting paralogue. I'd argue he'd be pretty good to. (But he can't. Not without excessive archer abuse that make anyone good.) But Donnel has a lot of issues that Mozu shares very little of. (The big thing is the villager class that Mozu can escape from near immediately. While Donnel is stuck with for I agree is an excessive amount of time that makes training Donnel a difficult, unfun, tiring task that produces a unit who is NOT worth it.)
 

[Shadow Mir]

39 minutes ago, DoomRPG said:

Anyway as for castle battles. Are you referring to the invasions or DLC battles? I'd say invasions are fair game for something anyone can do. DLC battles less so.

I meant castle battles with other players' teams. If you go online, you can check out other players' castles, and even battle them (if any of your units get defeated in these battles, you do not lose them; they only retreat).

41 minutes ago, DoomRPG said:

If you do Mozu's chapter early. I agree that she is not worth it. The XP from the faceless is better served on your other units.

Additionally. Giving Mozu the first and not second heart seal is not a large opportunity cost. It is in fact. A massive opportunity cost, bordering on an objective strategic failure. (I'd argue it IS an objective strategic failure.) First heart seal belongs to Elise if going wyvern. Or servant for inheriting the big value skills.
In other words. I agree. That immediate Mozu. Is a bad. Idea. That makes her NOT worth it.

Do you understand that I agree that Mozu gotten immediately is a terrible idea? I agree that is not worth the hassle and the reward you get is not only delayed. It is almost certainly weaker overall.

If you wait until chapter nine is complete. Than Mozu's paralogue has enemies (the faceless) that are now minimal gain for your units. They will be better served grinding support points with the rare bits of WEXP they can get from babysitting Mozu.
Its not even hard. It really isn't. I can do it without hassle, and I suck at FE. Is it super omega speedy beat the entire game in less than 20 turns? No. But its not hard. Just reclass with a heart seal that isn't in high demand. The second heart seal is not as high in demand as the first

And your reward is an archer. Who's leagues better than Niles. (And given that Niles is aggressively below average in my opinion that isn't hard.) She can take over his anti-pegasus duties in chapter ten. Which will continue to feed her tons of XP for little trouble. This is her second chapter with this strategy btw. Its not hard. Zero effort.
Additionally during the following chapters beyond her paralogue (so 10 11/ invasion 1 12 to a lesser extent.) Mozu can build support with Effie, saving her from the horrendous AK class line. To give her skills like quick draw which makes Effie an A-lister instead of a liability.

Counterpoint: The earlygame is generally the hardest point of FE games, and babysitting Mozu doesn't make it easier. If anything, I'm shooting myself in the foot, as I'm fielding a liability. And Mozu still needs a very valuable heart seal that could've been put to better use on anyone else.

44 minutes ago, DoomRPG said:

Mozu isn't an amazing trainee because she's the best unit in your team. She's an amazing trainee because she takes negligible effort to become a top 5 member of your army. And that top five is with people like Camilla, Corrin, and Xander. Characters who are practically guaranteed to hog N1.N2.N3 no matter what you think of them.

>Negligible effort
>Spoonfeeding most of the faceless in her paralogue to her

Nice oxymoron there. That is NOT anywhere near "negligible effort". That's ten billion percent closer to "deliberate favoritism".  If you think Mozu is a top 5 unit, you're kidding yourself, and you're kidding me.

51 minutes ago, DoomRPG said:

Even if this Mozu strat was incredibly asinine and painful (its not despite what you may believe.) It takes two chapters. TWO chapters. One of which is a joke. Yes. Chapter ten is hard. Mozu's paralogue is not.
And your reward is an excellent attack stance unit whose also very fast, has good strength, and gets the superb quick draw skill not just for herself, but whoever A+ supports her.

Having a good Mozu who only requires 1 frickin chapter of "burden" is worth the reward.  (I put burden in air quotes because Mozu is still OHKOing pegasus reinforcements.)
Having a Mozu that spends chapter 7-9 in villager (or beyond if you use the second HS on someone else.) NOT. Worth the reward.

I'd find fielding her in chapter 10 (let alone ever) shooting myself in the foot, and needing deliberate favoritism on a scale that would make just about anyone an A-lister to be good does NOT mean you're legitimately good.

56 minutes ago, DoomRPG said:

If Donnel reclassed into Mercenary that eclipsed other shepards right after his recruiting paralogue. I'd argue he'd be pretty good to. (But he can't. Not without excessive archer abuse that make anyone good.) But Donnel has a lot of issues that Mozu shares very little of. (The big thing is the villager class that Mozu can escape from near immediately. While Donnel is stuck with for I agree is an excessive amount of time that makes training Donnel a difficult, unfun, tiring task that produces a unit who is NOT worth it.)

Even though Mozu can get out of Villager immediately, unlike was the case with Donnel, her needing massive favoritism makes her inferior to anyone who doesn't need that much babying to meaningfully contribute.

[DoomRPG]

Shadow Mir. Your aware of how XP curves heavily in conquest right? There's favoritism and then there is "You've designed a scenario in which case only 1 unit gets XP above 10. And said unit gets around 70~ xp per kill." And how do you get that (admittedly weak at the moment) unit to kill? By baiting the faceless with your units that are only interested in support and WEXP (primarily the former.)

If Conquest didn't curve XP so heavily, yeah, your right. Mozu only gets ahead through excessive favoritism. Compare her to Ross and Donnel.
Ross gaining lvl 10 as a trainee, then level twenty unpromoted. Means he's killed enough units to level Seth ten times. Seth would not only contribute far more than Ross during that time, but I wouldn't be surprised if he even gets more stats in many key areas due to increased bases and Ross's growth rates being shitty.
Donnel also doesn't curve XP heavily. And thus feeding Donnel to level ten means you didn't feed Robin another five levels Or Tharja three.
FE Conquest. Does curve XP enough that you can realistically use Mozu as a net gain from babysitting. Your units gain some support points. And you gain an archer with good skills, good supports, and high speed and solid strength. Maybe enough defense to actually handle ninjas too. (Unlikely without a DEF bless. Or use of tonics/meals. Which might not be a guarantee.) Whereas in other FE games. Trainee units actively make the whole team weaker and never really become good.

Ch.9 Mozu costs you 1 Heart seal that isn't in demand. And rewards you with a unit who in Ch.10. Isn't a liability. Unless you count OHKO high speed pegasi units as a liability. Which means 1. Niles is also a liability. 2. Actually, nearly everyone is a liability with such a benchmark. Unless their name is overleveled Corrin (thanks Nobility being busted.)  GR jakob or Camilla. They can't double the 12 Speed knights at their level 10-12 averages. And don't oneshot either. And Jakob requires to be lvl 16.

You want to see favoritism? You should see how I treat Odin. Who I use to clear most of Chapter 8 and 9 since he. Unlike Nyx. Can nosferatu tank well enough to clear the entire left side of Chapter ten by himself. That's favoritism.
And sure, while I like Odin and think that's fun to do. I won't disagree that having Corrin kill those enemies, then wipe out the left side when ch.10 arrives. Is probably more practical. And the only real long term benefit of using Odin a bunch, is a better Ophelia.

And that training montage for Odin IS what I'd call uneccesary favoritism for a unit who starts bad and doesn't have much going for him outside of a gimmick strategy with vantage nonsense. Using Odin (who starts chapter 7 at only a few levels down from your other units.) is actively stealing XP I could use from other units. (Namely Corrin, Silas. The servant. Elise if reclassed.)
That is favoritism.

Delaying Mozu till chapter nine to make her chapter effortless and practically auto-feeds her for you into an A-lister that does everything Niles can, but better. (Except Capture.) in time for Chapter ten. Not only makes said chapter easier (because you have a better unit for taking out pegasi.) and Chapter 13. In total its a basic tactical decision that strengthens the roster with a unit that isn't Niles. But even if you insist in having Mozu cosplay Niles and shoehorn her into "Only attacks flying units and nothing else." she'll probably do it better with greater STR, comparable speed, and skill. The only thing he has going for him is resistance which you don't need against wyverns and pegasi.


Edit 1: I forgot that on Lunatic every pegasi unit in Chapter 11 has Winged Guard.
 

Edited January 4, 2022 by DoomRPG
Correcting a mistake

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Counterpoint: The earlygame is generally the hardest point of FE games

"generally" doesn't matter, since we're talking about a specific game: Conquest. And IMO this is absolutely not true in Conquest, particularly not on Lunatic. Difficulty is subjective, but I personally feel that only Chapter 10 is particularly tricky out of the maps I'd consider early, whereas the lategame has many challenging maps.

1 hour ago, DoomRPG said:

Delaying Mozu till chapter nine to make her chapter effortless and practically auto-feeds her for you into an A-lister that does everything Niles can, but better. (Except Capture.) in time for Chapter ten. Not only makes said chapter easier (because you have a better unit for taking out pegasi.) and Chapter 13. In total its a basic tactical decision that strengthens the roster with a unit that isn't Niles.

I think you're really underrating Niles here. While Mozu does do some things better than him (mainly her access to archer skills like Quick Draw and Certain Blow), he has a lot of advantages of his own (earlygame spd, +1 move, and locktouch). He's a solid unit, clocking in at above average in most tier lists I've seen.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

"generally" doesn't matter, since we're talking about a specific game: Conquest. And IMO this is absolutely not true in Conquest, particularly not on Lunatic. Difficulty is subjective, but I personally feel that only Chapter 10 is particularly tricky out of the maps I'd consider early, whereas the lategame has many challenging maps.

I think you're really underrating Niles here. While Mozu does do some things better than him (mainly her access to archer skills like Quick Draw and Certain Blow), he has a lot of advantages of his own (earlygame spd, +1 move, and locktouch). He's a solid unit, clocking in at above average in most tier lists I've seen.

Oh no! Now you've triggered Mir's anti Niles trap card!

[DoomRPG]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 

I think you're really underrating Niles here. While Mozu does do some things better than him (mainly her access to archer skills like Quick Draw and Certain Blow), he has a lot of advantages of his own (earlygame spd, +1 move, and locktouch). He's a solid unit, clocking in at above average in most tier lists I've seen.

I guess I really got too heated and should have been more precise.

Niles is a plenty servicable unit... When it comes to his utility. Capture, locktouch, and the every handy +1 movement. Whether you pass it to others through friendship/inheritence (usually former.) +1 movement is pretty great

Its just. even with his speed I think he's really bad as a combat unit. I'd hate to lose Niles in an iron man, but he'd never make my roster weaker or stronger.

So yeah I got a bit too heated for my own good. Niles is good* on the caveat that he isn't good at actually fighting. Which is good balancing so everything checks out.

 

[Shadow Mir]

10 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

Shadow Mir. Your aware of how XP curves heavily in conquest right? There's favoritism and then there is "You've designed a scenario in which case only 1 unit gets XP above 10. And said unit gets around 70~ xp per kill." And how do you get that (admittedly weak at the moment) unit to kill? By baiting the faceless with your units that are only interested in support and WEXP (primarily the former.)

I am. It does nothing to change the fact that Mozu is a high-investment unit, though, nor does it change the fact that pretty much any scrub can look good when you bust your ass to spoonfeed them a whole map. If you seriously think Mozu is a top 5 unit if you spoonfeed her most of the enemies in her paralogue, your standards for what constitutes a good unit are really really low.

10 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

If Conquest didn't curve XP so heavily, yeah, your right. Mozu only gets ahead through excessive favoritism. Compare her to Ross and Donnel.
Ross gaining lvl 10 as a trainee, then level twenty unpromoted. Means he's killed enough units to level Seth ten times. Seth would not only contribute far more than Ross during that time, but I wouldn't be surprised if he even gets more stats in many key areas due to increased bases and Ross's growth rates being shitty.
DonnelNo shit Sherlockshe's gonn a look good if you spalso doesn't curve XP heavily. And thus feeding Donnel to level ten means you didn't feed Robin another five levels Or Tharja three.
FE Conquest. Does curve XP enough that you can realistically use Mozu as a net gain from babysitting. Your units gain some support points. And you gain an archer with good skills, good supports, and high speed and solid strength. Maybe enough defense to actually handle ninjas too. (Unlikely without a DEF bless. Or use of tonics/meals. Which might not be a guarantee.) Whereas in other FE games. Trainee units actively make the whole team weaker and never really become good.

See above. If I gave Donnel the same amount of favoritism that you're proposing Mozu get, obviously he's gonna run rings around everyone else. Of course, that says much more about the scale of favoritism he was the recipient of than it says about him actually being good. Personally, I'm of the mind that every character should be able to contribute without the need to disproportionately favor them over everybody else.

10 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

Ch.9 Mozu costs you 1 Heart seal that isn't in demand. And rewards you with a unit who in Ch.10. Isn't a liability. Unless you count OHKO high speed pegasi units as a liability. Which means 1. Niles is also a liability. 2. Actually, nearly everyone is a liability with such a benchmark. Unless their name is overleveled Corrin (thanks Nobility being busted.)  GR jakob or Camilla. They can't double the 12 Speed knights at their level 10-12 averages. And don't oneshot either. And Jakob requires to be lvl 16.

No shit Sherlock she's gonna look good with that scale of favoritism.

10 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

You want to see favoritism? You should see how I treat Odin. Who I use to clear most of Chapter 8 and 9 since he. Unlike Nyx. Can nosferatu tank well enough to clear the entire left side of Chapter ten by himself. That's favoritism.
And sure, while I like Odin and think that's fun to do. I won't disagree that having Corrin kill those enemies, then wipe out the left side when ch.10 arrives. Is probably more practical. And the only real long term benefit of using Odin a bunch, is a better Ophelia.

And that training montage for Odin IS what I'd call uneccesary favoritism for a unit who starts bad and doesn't have much going for him outside of a gimmick strategy with vantage nonsense. Using Odin (who starts chapter 7 at only a few levels down from your other units.) is actively stealing XP I could use from other units. (Namely Corrin, Silas. The servant. Elise if reclassed.)
That is favoritism.

Delaying Mozu till chapter nine to make her chapter effortless and practically auto-feeds her for you into an A-lister that does everything Niles can, but better. (Except Capture.) in time for Chapter ten. Not only makes said chapter easier (because you have a better unit for taking out pegasi.) and Chapter 13. In total its a basic tactical decision that strengthens the roster with a unit that isn't Niles. But even if you insist in having Mozu cosplay Niles and shoehorn her into "Only attacks flying units and nothing else." she'll probably do it better with greater STR, comparable speed, and skill. The only thing he has going for him is resistance which you don't need against wyverns and pegasi.

Funny you say that, because in my book, there's no difference between your Odin training montage and the Mozu training montage you're ever so willing to back, despite your insistence to the contrary.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[DoomRPG]

Donnel always requires several chapters of babysitting. Never contributing until they're like. Level 15~ give or take (10 villager 5 in merc.) It becomes impossible to raise him if you wait too long (its impossible to legit raise him on higher difficulties. You must use archer abuse.) Unless your willing to use tons and tons of reeking boxes. Which can easily become like 30k worth of gold just to raise Donnel.

Chapter 5-8 recruited Mozu is pretty miserable. On a similar level.
Chapter 9. No. It helps that she's the only one who gets XP anyway. Then on chapter 10. You have a unit that contributes.

It seems like we've reached a full point where we can only go in circles. So its probably best to just bury the hatchet on this point.

I would like to ask if we could have a different conversation, perhaps in DM's about where the line of "investment" begins and ends for you. I don't think 1 chapter worth of investment is very high. Especially when the reward is apparent in the immediate next chapter.

Up to you however. Thanks for the discussion even if it got heated. I think you get knocked on more times then you deserve. I do agree fully with some of your points. (99.99% of axe infantry suck. Is there even a good hybrid unit in the entire series yet?)

[Shrimpica]

2 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

Chapter 5-8 recruited Mozu is pretty miserable. On a similar level.

i recruit her before ice village, get her to lvl 7 in her paralogue (after heartseal), then she just pwns everything

If i don't plan to use her i usually train others (usually odin) in her paralogue after ice chapter

[DoomRPG]

42 minutes ago, Shrimpresident said:

i recruit her before ice village, get her to lvl 7 in her paralogue (after heartseal), then she just pwns everything

If i don't plan to use her i usually train others (usually odin) in her paralogue after ice chapter

To each their own I suppose. But first heart seal and before chapter 7? That's where I think Mozu just becomes a sap along more traditional trainee units. Like the Sacred Stones Trio. 
Since chapter 7 (and 8 have enemies that give XP that Mozu is competing for. While in Ch.9 You can get Mozu to lvl 7+ with a second, less in demand, heart seal and without bothering your units who are their for support points mostly since they get zero xp.)

If it works for you clearly your doing something right, so maybe I should try that route someday.

[Shrimpica]

5 minutes ago, DoomRPG said:

But first heart seal and before chapter 7?

*After

before Ice village (which is chapter 8)

5 minutes ago, DoomRPG said:

If it works for you clearly your doing something right, so maybe I should try that route someday.

It works, but it also usually means i won't be using Odin for that run. And Silas, too.

And Niles always useless for me anyway

[Dark Holy Elf]

17 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

I guess I really got too heated and should have been more precise.

Niles is a plenty servicable unit... When it comes to his utility. Capture, locktouch, and the every handy +1 movement. Whether you pass it to others through friendship/inheritence (usually former.) +1 movement is pretty great

Its just. even with his speed I think he's really bad as a combat unit. I'd hate to lose Niles in an iron man, but he'd never make my roster weaker or stronger.

So yeah I got a bit too heated for my own good. Niles is good* on the caveat that he isn't good at actually fighting. Which is good balancing so everything checks out.

I think you're definitely underrating his combat too. He's fast enough to double most things (which is pretty uncommon on the Conquest roster), and fulfills the fundamental archer niche of murdering fliers just fine. It's not exceptional combat, but it's also not notably worse than Mozu until the second half of the game (if it's even worse at all. Mozu needs to gain 11 levels just to match his base speed).

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I think you're definitely underrating his combat too. He's fast enough to double most things (which is pretty uncommon on the Conquest roster), and fulfills the fundamental archer niche of murdering fliers just fine. It's not exceptional combat, but it's also not notably worse than Mozu until the second half of the game (if it's even worse at all. Mozu needs to gain 11 levels just to match his base speed).

Some notes:

- as of lvl 5/6 Mozu will have the same STR as base Niles - the only difference in damage will come from weapon ranks and used bow; as of lvl 13/14 Mozu will have the same STR as a lvl 20 Niles

- as of lvl 2/3 Mozu will begin to be more accurate; 

- neither of the above come into effect anywhere near the 2 half of the game but quite possibly before/during chapter 10/11 - presuming you mean chapter 15 as halfway point.

- a lvl 20 ArcherMozu:OutlawNiles will have 26:28HP  18:14STR  3:8MAG  22:15SKL  22:23SPD  14:11DEF  10:19RES

- that is not taking into account skills - Quick Draw(+4dmg)/Skill+2 being the only ones taking effect here; realistically, Mozu has 18+4dmg and 24SKL; additionally Mozu does cap SPD at lvl 19;

[Dark Holy Elf]

None of that contradicts what I said, and you seem to be all but ignoring the speed difference, which is a huge deal early (Niles +8 at base). She does indeed pass him in atk around Chapter 10-11 as you said (whenever she both reaches D bows and gets Quick Draw). So from, say, Chapter 12 through 15 (roughly), there will be a few maps where Mozu has a bit more atk and he has a bit more speed, which results in a comparison which is reasonably competitive. Do you disagree with my assessment that Niles is "not notably worse" during that time? It's only once Mozu catches up in speed when you can truly start saying that she's better at combat.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

None of that contradicts what I said, and you seem to be all but ignoring the speed difference, which is a huge deal early (Niles +8 at base).She does indeed pass him in atk around Chapter 10-11 as you said (whenever she both reaches D bows and gets Quick Draw). So from, say, Chapter 12 through 15 (roughly), there will be a few maps where Mozu has a bit more atk and he has a bit more speed, which results in a comparison which is reasonably competitive. Do you disagree with my assessment that Niles is "not notably worse" during that time? It's only once Mozu catches up in speed when you can truly start saying that she's better at combat.

Yes, because speed is irrelevant, when 1) depending on enemy weaponry and enemy type either attack strength or accuracy is wonky 2) enemies surviving combat potentially means -6 debuffs, if not worse Shuriken debuffs 3) using Attack Stance ideally prevents being damaged and being debuffed and favors higher STR/MAG.

Mozu reaches up to lvl 6 in her paralogue, presuming any kind of optimized play. If she has reached D-rank, which is likely due to feeding her as many Faceless as possible, she has the same damage as base Niles at that point, after her paralogue alone. The rest then depends on when you recruited her. 

Mozu having all but guaranteed higher damage with greater accuracy alltogether as of lvl 10, which is entirely feasible in chapter 10 at the latest, which requires her paralogue, the right side of the Invasion and potshots at the Mercenaries and deployment in chapter 10, that Niles will as of that moment not be able to match, while also having equalized up to -1 SPD at worst (she does max 22 speed at lvl 19 as opposed to Niles 23,4 at lvl20), and thus doing more damage for chapter 11-14, is something I´d call Niles having notably worse combat for *a part of* the first half of the game, especially in a world where Attack Stance exists. 

[Shadow Mir]

16 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

Mozu reaches up to lvl 6 in her paralogue, presuming any kind of optimized play.

>Mozu

>Optimised play

Pick one.

[Dark Holy Elf]

29 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

Yes, because speed is irrelevant, when 1) depending on enemy weaponry and enemy type either attack strength or accuracy is wonky 2) enemies surviving combat potentially means -6 debuffs, if not worse Shuriken debuffs 3) using Attack Stance ideally prevents being damaged and being debuffed and favors higher STR/MAG.

You're aware that speed lets you double (and KO) enemies, and that -6 debuffs don't kick in when you eliminate enemies, right? e.g. Camilla's the best choice for eliminating spearfighters with Seal Def because she doubles and one-rounds them without any help. If Niles doubles enemies and Mozu doesn't it's a lot easier to reach thresholds to one-round enemies (which not only prevents after-battle debuffs, but is just useful in general), particularly with how doubling interacts with anything which raises damage (Str Tonic, Rose's Thorns, etc.). It's true that doubling isn't helpful for preventing shuriken counters, but that's only one enemy type (and not even all of that enemy type, since bronze/iron shuriken debuffs are pretty irrelevant to archers).

As for attack stance, both benefit from it when other people are supporting them, and they aren't that different at supporting other themselves, because Quick Draw doesn't apply to providing attack stance support, if memory serves.

If Niles has wonky accuracy against an enemy type (which doesn't happen too often in my experience with attack stance), then Mozu's is barely better; the gap between them is in the single digits in the earlygame (you mentioned a 9-point gap in Skl at Level 20, but that assumes they're the same bow rank and level despite Niles starting with big leads in both, and even then is only 13.5 hit). If you're seriously going to argue that a single-digit gap in hit is comparable to a single-digit gap in AS then I'm just going to wonder if we're playing the same game. And then take some solace in the fact that at least most people seem to be playing the same one as me because Niles > Mozu is not exactly a hot take.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

As for attack stance, both benefit from it when other people are supporting them, and they aren't that different at supporting other themselves, because Quick Draw doesn't apply to providing attack stance support, if memory serves.

Wrong. Tested with Quick Draw, Aggressor, Death Blow and Certain Blow -> they all applied for Attack Stance supporting partner.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

You're aware that speed lets you double (and KO) enemies, and that -6 debuffs don't kick in when you eliminate enemies, right? e.g. Camilla's the best choice for eliminating spearfighters with Seal Def because she doubles and one-rounds them without any help. If Niles doubles enemies and Mozu doesn't it's a lot easier to reach thresholds to one-round enemies (which not only prevents after-battle debuffs, but is just useful in general), particularly with how doubling interacts with anything which raises damage (Str Tonic, Rose's Thorns, etc.). It's true that doubling isn't helpful for preventing shuriken counters, but that's only one enemy type (and not even all of that enemy type, since bronze/iron shuriken debuffs are pretty irrelevant to archers).

If Niles has wonky accuracy against an enemy type (which doesn't happen too often in my experience with attack stance), then Mozu's is barely better; the gap between them is in the single digits in the earlygame (you mentioned a 9-point gap in Skl at Level 20, but that assumes they're the same bow rank and level despite Niles starting with big leads in both, and even then is only 13.5 hit). If you're seriously going to argue that a single-digit gap in hit is comparable to a single-digit gap in AS then I'm just going to wonder if we're playing the same game.

No I didn´t, units can double in Fire Emblem, really? I never saw that? Can you explain it to me in detail across the series, with examples and citations? 

I´m not sure where you are getting all of this. We just established how easily Mozu catches up with and surpasses Niles in every aspect other than -1 spd. Fixing up Mozu´s grand disadvantage of -1 spd, is a lot easier than fixing Niles -6 dmg. You are already bending over backwards, even impairing other units ability to act, to have Niles damage still be inferior.

You are still taking damage when doubling. Why do people insist on taking damage? It is preventable and thus (mostly) preferable.

Niles doesn´t double Ninjas. He also doesn´t 1RKO them. A lvl 20 average Niles would require a Silver Bow to 1HKO a chapter 10 Ninja. That is a 15 dmg weapon. You should read up on Fates weaponry, specifically Shuriken. Note that chapter 10 Ninjas have Steel Shuriken 🙂

Very few units out of CQ are Camilla. Only one to be exact. Did you know that Camilla exactly 1HKO´s Ninjas with a Hand Axe and Spear Fighters are easily softened up by the Ballista in turn 1? (Disclaimer: I am prone to math mistakes)

Weapon rank bonuses, according to the wiki, don´t come before C-rank. Not gonna lie, didn´t know this. In the case of bows, Niles would get +1dmg and thus still be behind, in damage and in hitrate.

On the contrary, if comparing hit:as at single digit, i would say that it is entirely meaningless, because neither of them are damage. Not that I ever said such, the comparison is about dmg, hit and speed and this is thus a product of your own imagination.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

And then take some solace in the fact that at least most people seem to be playing the same one as me because Niles > Mozu is not exactly a hot take.

There´s many comparisons that come to mind with a statement like this, none of which I´ll write here because it´ll get me banned.

True. The community is infallible and has never once formed an opinion to later be changed. Never. Not once. 

Niles > Mozu is hardly a take, because they are hardly compared and Niles gets evaluated for his ability to kidnap (infinite reinforcements > any one unit) and his daughter. cough Sniper Nina cough. His combat is understood to be underwhelming.

[Shadow Mir]

20 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

We just established how easily Mozu catches up with and surpasses Niles in every aspect other than -1 spd.

Of course a unit that you slow down to a Magcargo's pace to spoonfeed a lot of enemies in their joining chapter is gonna dominate. Unfortunately, a good unit does not need that level of special treatment. Also, if your standard of a good unit is "excels when you slow down to a crawl to disproportionately favor in their joining chapter", you have very, very, VERY generous standards for a good unit.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[Dark Holy Elf]

51 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

No I didn´t, units can double in Fire Emblem, really? I never saw that? Can you explain it to me in detail across the series, with examples and citations? 

51 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

There´s many comparisons that come to mind with a statement like this, none of which I´ll write here because it´ll get me banned.

Not sure why you're being so belligerent. If you felt my statement was being condescending (it was meant more out of disbelief than anything else, for the record) then maybe you shouldn't have said speed was irrelevant. If you meant "the speed gap of -1 is irrelevant", then that's fair, but that's not what you said. If you meant to imply otherwise that's fine - we miscommunicated, it happens - but you don't have to be a jerk about it.

52 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

´m not sure where you are getting all of this. We just established how easily Mozu catches up with and surpasses Niles in every aspect other than -1 spd

You (not we) did that by ignoring all the levels before 20. For those earlier levels, the gap is larger than -1... up to -8. (There's also the -1 move to be considered.)

1 hour ago, Imuabicus said:

Niles > Mozu is hardly a take, because they are hardly compared

Please read back on how Niles got brought into this conversation. It was when someone compared them directly, saying Mozu > Niles. I literally got into this conversation because I disagree with that take.

Though now that I understand you were only talking about Level 20 the rest of your statement makes sense so probably best just to drop it.

1 hour ago, Imuabicus said:

Niles doesn´t double Ninjas. He also doesn´t 1RKO them. A lvl 20 average Niles would require a Silver Bow to 1HKO a chapter 10 Ninja.

Yes, Niles isn't anything special at fighting those ninjas. But he can double archers, onis, and with a single spd proc, spearfighters. Mozu needs seven speed procs to double the slowest of these enemies (five with a spd tonic, granted). And anything he doubles that she doesn't, he's going to do more damage against.

e.g. if Niles gets a single str proc, he can one-round archers with a Str Tonic. For the onis and spearfighters he'll probably need either a pairup or attack stance support, but he requires less than Mozu regardless, because of the doubling.