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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

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11 hours ago, Roy's Our Boy! said:

-Edward is a good unit

Sorry, but I cannot agree when he's really hard to get going, and he's not even that rewarding for all the trouble. If you're going to be as hard to raise as he is, I expect the results to actually be worth it... which I cannot say is the case when thanks to the way the game is designed, he fails to significantly outclass his competition.

On 2/27/2022 at 4:13 AM, drattakbowser said:

Three Houses (Silver Snow)

Uh, yeah, I don't think that that ends up being the supposed "golden path". Or that Three Houses has one at all.

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Sorry, but I cannot agree when he's really hard to get going, and he's not even that rewarding for all the trouble. If you're going to be as hard to raise as he is, I expect the results to actually be worth it... which I cannot say is the case when thanks to the way the game is designed, he fails to significantly outclass his competition.

Have you played Radiant Dawn?

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Have you played Radiant Dawn?

Yes. And pretty much every time, I found Edward to be more of a liability than an asset, because long story short, he plays like a really squishy archer, except unlike archers, he often has to risk eating counters. And this is in a game where the first few chapters have ANY death as a game over condition.

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33 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yes. And pretty much every time, I found Edward to be more of a liability than an asset, because long story short, he plays like a really squishy archer, except unlike archers, he often has to risk eating counters. And this is in a game where the first few chapters have ANY death as a game over condition.

Well I'm sure you'll have a much easier time if you just drop him in the first four chapters.

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Just now, Jotari said:

Well I'm sure you'll have a much easier time if you just drop him in the first four chapters.

I usually just drop him after Zihark comes along, which isn't too far into part 1. I mean, Zihark is pretty much a better Edward in just about every way (this, by the way, is the biggest blow to Edward's viability).

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24 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I usually just drop him after Zihark comes along, which isn't too far into part 1. I mean, Zihark is pretty much a better Edward in just about every way (this, by the way, is the biggest blow to Edward's viability).

That's why I said the first four.

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34 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well I'm sure you'll have a much easier time if you just drop him in the first four chapters.

If your argument is that Edward is better than an empty slot, that's a pretty low bar.

Though for what it's worth I did one playthrough where I did drop Edward (and Leonardo) immediately in the Prologue, and I can't say that made for any particular challenge. Micaiah can solo 1-P, Micaiah + Nolan have no problem with 1-1, and so on. I'm not saying you should do this, but you easily can.

If Edward is the second trickiest swordmaster to train, as @vanguard333 says, that also implies he's the second worst (edit: or at best third, because Stefan is a hard unit to rate), because it's not like they turn out meaningfully different from each other at the end. (If anything, the best one at the end is actually Zihark, because he can achieve the highest avoid due to his affinity.) Definitely agree with Mir that Zihark basically outclasses Edward compeltely. That doesn't mean Edward is devoid of use, because Zihark is good and outclasses a lot of people, but I'm still not terribly impressed.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
added some comments on Stefan to avoid a Stefan vs Edward debate

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22 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If your argument is that Edward is better than an empty slot, that's a pretty low bar.

Though for what it's worth I did one playthrough where I did drop Edward (and Leonardo) immediately in the Prologue, and I can't say that made for any particular challenge. Micaiah can solo 1-P, Micaiah + Nolan have no problem with 1-1, and so on. I'm not saying you should do this, but you easily can.

If Edward is the second trickiest swordmaster to train, as @vanguard333 says, that also implies he's the second worst (edit: or at best third, because Stefan is a hard unit to rate), because it's not like they turn out meaningfully different from each other at the end. (If anything, the best one at the end is actually Zihark, because he can achieve the highest avoid due to his affinity.) Definitely agree with Mir that Zihark basically outclasses Edward compeltely. That doesn't mean Edward is devoid of use, because Zihark is good and outclasses a lot of people, but I'm still not terribly impressed.

My point was more that he's forced deploy so you have no reason not to use him.

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Was there a golden toute to begin with? What I’d personally consider a golden route in 3H would be the death of all Agarthan and Nabatean. Hell in CF flower Byleth heart shattered the crestone and stated beating. To me it screamed healthy baby but Rhea wanted mommy back. So yeah 3H golden route imo is where human leads the world without the church (Nabatean) and the creepy vampire scientist (Agarthan or TWSITD)

Edited by NaotoUzumaki

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3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If Edward is the second trickiest swordmaster to train, as @vanguard333 says, that also implies he's the second worst (edit: or at best third, because Stefan is a hard unit to rate), because it's not like they turn out meaningfully different from each other at the end. (If anything, the best one at the end is actually Zihark, because he can achieve the highest avoid due to his affinity.) Definitely agree with Mir that Zihark basically outclasses Edward completely. That doesn't mean Edward is devoid of use, because Zihark is good and outclasses a lot of people, but I'm still not terribly impressed.

When I say he's the "2nd-trickiest" swordmaster to train, it isn't by much. He's available from the very first chapter in the game and throughout every dawn brigade mission; he's only harder to train than Mia, Zihark and Stefan because the first one automatically is part of the Greil Mercenaries' chapters, the second one comes as a promoted unit in part 1 (and can later be made to switch sides and take part in some of the Greil Mercenaries' chapters), and the third one comes fully-promoted in part 4.

@NaotoUzumaki 1. There theoretically wasn't supposed to be a golden route for Three Houses; all of them were supposed to have their pros and cons.

2. That's a bit of an odd definition of a golden ending; the Nabateans ultimately didn't mean any ill will and they can see some of the error of their ways in some of the routes, and the church of seiros could be removed without getting rid of the Nabateans.

Edited by vanguard333

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Personally, Edward is always part of my endgame teams.

I remember once making him reach Trueblade class by Part 1 Endgame, though it was by dumping all the BEXP I had onto him. Only to see how far he could go. Didn't actually continued the game like that... I think...

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7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If anything, the best one at the end is actually Zihark, because he can achieve the highest avoid due to his affinity.

Lucia has earth affinity too! And she gets a bond support with Elincia to make her even better! She is clearly* the best swordmaster and this is definitely not** just me desperately trying to justify the favouritism and bexp required to make one of my favourite units viable.

* Note: may not actually be clear.

** Note: may actually be.

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I do tend to prefer Edward to Zihark despite Edward's weaker start because of his superior growths. He takes a bit to get going, but once he gets going, he doesn't stop. On the other hand, I tend to have trouble with Zihark's Str by part 3.

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True but they still hid their existence and that if their enemies. If the rest of foldable discovered it and the church being stuck between all 3 main powers well they would die. People wouldn’t want to trust them or any non human ever. They would have discovered that they were lied for about 1200 years. Each human can live a hundred years and Byleth is experiment thirteen. Even IF the three lords don’t agree they would be forced by peer pressure to do so. The lords are responsible for the human in thei land. Point is or was that would be the optimal golden route in loose quote. The settings doesn’t really allow for it. All in all it was only a thought experiment.

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1 hour ago, NaotoUzumaki said:

True but they still hid their existence and that if their enemies. If the rest of foldable discovered it and the church being stuck between all 3 main powers well they would die. People wouldn’t want to trust them or any non human ever. They would have discovered that they were lied for about 1200 years. Each human can live a hundred years and Byleth is experiment thirteen. Even IF the three lords don’t agree they would be forced by peer pressure to do so. The lords are responsible for the human in thei land. Point is or was that would be the optimal golden route in loose quote. The settings doesn’t really allow for it. All in all it was only a thought experiment.

Who are you responding to? You were the last person to talk about Three Houses, everyone else has been talking about Edward in Radiant Dawn.

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3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Who are you responding to? You were the last person to talk about Three Houses, everyone else has been talking about Edward in Radiant Dawn.

Vanguard333, I'd reckon, since they answered their first post.

---

On that subject, gotta say I agree I don't quite agree on the notion that "Golden Ending" has to include "Kill all Nabateans"...

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37 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Vanguard333, I'd reckon, since they answered their first post.

---

On that subject, gotta say I agree I don't quite agree on the notion that "Golden Ending" has to include "Kill all Nabateans"...

Personally I think the Golden Ending shouldn't include "Kill all the Agarthans"! They're the ones best equipped for modernization!

Edited by Jotari

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19 hours ago, Jotari said:

Personally I think the Golden Ending shouldn't include "Kill all the Agarthans"! They're the ones best equipped for modernization!

Obviously the answer is "displace the Agarthan leadership, then bring their scientists over to work in your laboratories." Imagine, Rhea with nukes.

Everyone is talking Edward and Zihark, so... wait, do I have an unpopular opinion about either of them? Uh... how about "it's better to train Edward than Zihark in Part 1, because you have full deployment in DB Part III, and a 'trained vs. untrained Edward' has a much wider margin in performance than a 'trained vs. untrained Zihark'."?

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6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Obviously the answer is "displace the Agarthan leadership, then bring their scientists over to work in your laboratories." Imagine, Rhea with nukes.

Everyone is talking Edward and Zihark, so... wait, do I have an unpopular opinion about either of them? Uh... how about "it's better to train Edward than Zihark in Part 1, because you have full deployment in DB Part III, and a 'trained vs. untrained Edward' has a much wider margin in performance than a 'trained vs. untrained Zihark'."?

If by displace the leadership you mean S support Thales!

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On 3/6/2022 at 7:18 AM, Jotari said:

Personally I think the Golden Ending shouldn't include "Kill all the Agarthans"! They're the ones best equipped for modernization!

Or just kill em all and steal their tech.

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On 3/5/2022 at 1:59 PM, Jotari said:

That's why I said the first four.

At the same time, that makes the prologue harder (and for what it's worth, he's the best unit you have there, though admittedly, that ain't saying much).

On 3/5/2022 at 10:10 PM, Florete said:

I do tend to prefer Edward to Zihark despite Edward's weaker start because of his superior growths. He takes a bit to get going, but once he gets going, he doesn't stop. On the other hand, I tend to have trouble with Zihark's Str by part 3.

Speaking of, I find that Zihark struggles in the DB part 3 chapters, but more because of what they're fighting than stats. I'm not sure Edward would be much better off in part 3, because he has much of the same weaknesses as Zihark does...

On 3/5/2022 at 5:36 PM, vanguard333 said:

When I say he's the "2nd-trickiest" swordmaster to train, it isn't by much. He's available from the very first chapter in the game and throughout every dawn brigade mission; he's only harder to train than Mia, Zihark and Stefan because the first one automatically is part of the Greil Mercenaries' chapters, the second one comes as a promoted unit in part 1 (and can later be made to switch sides and take part in some of the Greil Mercenaries' chapters), and the third one comes fully-promoted in part 4.

I would say he is the trickiest to make work. Sure, he's available early, but I don't consider availability that much of a boon when most of the time, you're more of a hindrance than a help.

20 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Everyone is talking Edward and Zihark, so... wait, do I have an unpopular opinion about either of them? Uh... how about "it's better to train Edward than Zihark in Part 1, because you have full deployment in DB Part III, and a 'trained vs. untrained Edward' has a much wider margin in performance than a 'trained vs. untrained Zihark'."?

I'd agree if Edward could perform even remotely better than Zihark after all that work... which he cannot. The only thing he really has over Zihark is Caladbolg... which is not enough to make the tooth-pulling task of training him worth it.

While we're at it... I'd say that Leonardo is more useful than Edward, largely because he doesn't have to put himself on the chopping block every time he wants to see combat like Edward does (a big deal when you're pretty much always 2HKOed). 

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I remember I once had Edward beat Ike in 3-13. Ike was level 20 I recall, and with high stats. Still went down, though admittedly I had to use the "have him equip a weaker sword in 3-11 so he doesn't arrive with Ragnell equipped." And Tempest Sword Soren off the battlefield to remove the support bonus.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd agree if Edward could perform even remotely better than Zihark after all that work... which he cannot. The only thing he really has over Zihark is Caladbolg... which is not enough to make the tooth-pulling task of training him worth it.

Sure, a trained Edward isn't better than an untrained Zihark from the start of Part III. My point is, DB Part III is something of an "all hands on deck" moment, where it's better to have two "pretty good" units, than one "really good" and one "bad" unit.

6 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

While we're at it... I'd say that Leonardo is more useful than Edward, largely because he doesn't have to put himself on the chopping block every time he wants to see combat like Edward does (a big deal when you're pretty much always 2HKOed). 

I'd agree that Leonardo is better than Edward in Part III. Namely, he gets the Brave Bow and Lughnasadh as excellent tools, and in III-13, he can man the ballistae and do effective damage against enemy Hawks. In Part I, though, Edward has a clear advantage: he can double foes that Leonardo cannot, meaning he's dealing much more damage. And Edward does better in Strength and HP.

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19 hours ago, Jotari said:

If by displace the leadership you mean S support Thales!

ah yes, the ever-growing popularity of S-supporting or maxing affinity of your supposed arch-enemy. reject dragon, embrace nuke. they should add radiation as new element

golden ending should end with garreg mach receiving a whole new batch of transfer student from agarthan.

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6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Sure, a trained Edward isn't better than an untrained Zihark from the start of Part III. My point is, DB Part III is something of an "all hands on deck" moment, where it's better to have two "pretty good" units, than one "really good" and one "bad" unit.

 

This is a fair point, but in practice I dunno that it pans out. A similar argument could be used for training Fiona instead of Zihark, and that's pretty obviously not a good idea.

My personal experience is that benching a number of the weakest DB members makes the chapters significantly easier. (And Edward is IMO one of that group.) Edward never pays off in a meaningful way; the playthroughs where I don't train him (which are a majority), I never find I miss him in part 3 at all. (And of course, untrained Edward can still block ledges in 3-13.) I don't think Zihark in part 3 is irreplaceable, but if you build an earth/earth support for him he can reach relatively reliable avoid figures, which Edward can't really even if you give him far more exp and an earth support of his own.

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