What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

It's still not something Byleth can do in Houses, so it comes off as a clunky needless retcon. 

Byleth isn't doing it here either, it's Sothis.

[Samz707]

41 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Byleth isn't doing it here either, it's Sothis.

And I'm sure Sothis would have given Byleth access to in Houses or that there'd be any indication she had something like this in Houses, so it comes off as a retcon, since Byleth is using Sothis' power in Houses and there's no indication that any other powers exist.

It, again, just comes off as a clunky retcon because Shez has to lose, again. (And the first two times were already dumb so I'm sick of it by this point.)

So that's why I honestly feel the Death Knight, despite people constantly crapping on him, was a far better rival character than Byleth is in Hopes, (Since the game didn't all-but claim they beat you or ignored your victories for a dumb cutscene where they suddenly win regardless via pulling a new ability out of nowhere.) I looked forward to seeing the DK again, while whenever Byleth shows up, I just groan at this point and wait for the game's writer to bail them out of losing via plot armor, you can beat Jeritza, get a reward and the game doesn't claim otherwise.

 

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Whoops, sorry! Not sure how my brain jumped there.

Can you clarify what part of my post you're responding to? You seem to be talking about Byleth winning the fight (cutscene) but the only thing I mentioned that Byleth "couldn't do" in Houses was gameplay only, so I see no retcon.

Prologue: Byleth wins the fight (in both plot and gameplay), Shez gets superpowers, fight ends before any sort of winner can emerge.

Chapter 5: Byleth can be beaten, although it's not expected that the player will. That said, the game acknowledges this if you do by having Byleth retreat; Shez notes that they "failed to defeat the Ashen Demon" in the cutscene that follows.

I don't really think either of those are spun into Byleth "winning". Chapter 5 is set up such that Shez is unable to win, so they still feel the drive to keep getting stronger so they can win in the future.

Now, in the Chapter 7 cutscene, Byleth kicks Shez's ass (Sothis would have killed Shez if Byleth hadn't taken over for a moment and restrained her), but again, that's because Sothis!Byleth is awakened and Shez would not reasonably be able to win that fight for reasons already outlined.

If Byleth is failing to be a threat in gameplay you can always try playing on a higher difficulty. I fought them in NG Maddening recently and it's a chore just to get them down to the 90% health needed to trigger Jeralt/Alois to appear, let alone actually defeating them which, if you're ever able to pull that off, you have my highest respect. Individual opponents generally aren't very scary in Three Hopes (because the player gets so many bailout tactics like combat arts/magic and warrior specials) but Byleth is absolutely tuned to be pretty tough to beat in gameplay, especially the time that you are able, but not supposed to, win (Chapter 5).

Byleth didn't win the prologue for me, I wore them down alot, then the game cut to a cutscene of me losing, so already it was flawed to me, Shez's HP was not depleted and I was actually about to get them relatively close to death, so it just came off as Byleth plot armoring their way out of defeat. 

Except chapter 5 doesn't, the dialogue is clearly written with "Shez had to run away" in mind, and if you look up the script, there is no alternative dialogue, there is just one set of dialogue regardless of what happened and it doesn't feel written for "Shez made Byleth retreat" at all.

I'm on Hard, Death Knight in Three Houses Hard was also still a threat. (And I think it says alot that even the consistent DK defeat stratgies, involve nuking him with a spell he's weak too or taking advantage of any other way of one shotting him, he'll still easly wipe the floor with you in a direct fight wher he gets a hit in.) 

I was able to not too hard beat Byleth in 5, I had to retreat to grab health from pots a few times but it was hardly impossible and I was using only Shez to keep my other units I wasn't directly controlling safe. (And again, having all that effort, which the game encourages via a side mission so this isn't even doing what it doesn't want you to do get promptly ignored feels like a slap in the face and just more plot armor for Byleth of "Oh no you fought them alot but actually they let you win".) 

Simply put, I feel like I could have killed Byleth in the prologue alone if it wasn't for the writers plot armoring their way out of it, and that has only gotten worse as the chapters go on and Byleth fails to keep with my Shez. (And again, Byleth only wins the newest fight because now Sothis has a retcon new power that never was hinted to exist before, so it just comes off as lazy writing.) 

 

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

And I'm sure Sothis would have given Byleth access to in Houses or that there'd be any indication she had something like this in Houses, so it comes off as a retcon, since Byleth is using Sothis' power in Houses and there's no indication that any other powers exist.

It, again, just comes off as a clunky retcon because Shez has to lose, again. (And the first two times were already dumb so I'm sick of it by this point.)

So that's why I honestly feel the Death Knight, despite people constantly crapping on him, was a far better rival character than Byleth is in Hopes, (Since the game didn't all-but claim they beat you or ignored your victories for a dumb cutscene where they suddenly win regardless via pulling a new ability out of nowhere.) I looked forward to seeing the DK again, while whenever Byleth shows up, I just groan at this point and wait for the game's writer to bail them out of losing via plot armor, you can beat Jeritza, get a reward and the game doesn't claim otherwise.

Sothis never came into contact with Arval in Three Houses.

And retcon...the whole game is retcon, you realize that, right? Shez and Arval didn't exist at all in Three Houses. Nor was their an invasion by Claude's brother or a rescue of Monica and a whole host of other things.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Jotari

[Samz707]

19 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Sothis never came into contact with Arval in Three Houses.

And retcon...the whole game is retcon, you realize that, right? Shez and Arval didn't exist at all in Three Houses. Nor was their an invasion by Claude's brother or a rescue of Monica and a whole host of other things.

Yes, and I think giving Sothis a random new power purely for the sake of having Byleth always win, isn't a good thing.

I like Alternative Universe stories but there still needs to be some logic. (Like how rescuing Monica comes around due to different events)

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Yes, and I think giving Sothis a random new power purely for the sake of having Byleth always win, isn't a good thing.

I like Alternative Universe stories but there still needs to be some logic. (Like how rescuing Monica comes around due to different events)

 I've explained the logic to you, but you've seemed intent on ignoring it. It's not random, it's there for several specific reasons that are necessary for the narrative.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Jotari

[Venger_06]

11 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Belated reply to the earlier discussion...  an hour long video (that was part 3!) that spends 20 minutes discussing Clive vs. Mathilda is too hardcore for my tastes (I did watch 5 minutes from the linked section), but while I'm not completely averse to Clive > Mathilda (or even just Clive = Mathilda), the particular tier list used still seems kinda bonkers.  If I was sincerely out to hype Clive > Mathilda, it would be an argument on availability, essentially - that Clive is usable in C1 / C3 (better to give a Ridersbane to a Cavalier than a Soldier/Knight, Clive has the Strength required to OHKO common enemy cavalry with it), that you're not really interested in Gold Knights for C5 anyway, that if you want a Gold Knight for C5 Zeke and/or Mycen don't require any grinding while Mathilda will need at least some catch-up.  Basically, it should mean that Mathilda is considered low-tier, and Clive beats her by dint of existing when there was less competition, similar to a Wolt vs. Dorothy vibe.  But...  the tier list is hyping both as B-tier!

Clive is A+ tier, while Matilda is B+. Just watch at least these least 4 minutes.

But the Mekkah WAIFU video about Clive clarifies the matter further.

[Etrurian emperor]

How Clive fares as a unit wouldn't really be relevant for me since if I dislike a character sufficiently enough I won't touch them. The likes of Shinon, Peri and Clive could be god among men on the battlefield and I'd still exile them to the bench.

I guess at times not factoring stats in any capacity when picking a unit would be an unpopular opinion. 

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

54 minutes ago, Newtype06 said:

Clive is A+ tier, while Matilda is B+. Just watch at least these least 4 minutes.

But the Mekkah WAIFU video about Clive clarifies the matter further.

"new" opinion just dropped, why didn´t you provide the footnotes with your initial post

So everything for Clive depends on grinding? Got it, have you heard about our lord/lady and saviour Amelia/Est/Donnel/Mozu and whoever else I´m forgetting? And backtracking is even better, because it spawns more enemies for Clive to feast on! And when we do the same for Mathilda it´s taking away exp from the whole squad, do not forget that!

He´s vulnerable to witches, but handles them just fine unless you didn´t grind, except of course their whole spiel is targetting solo characters so do go ahead and hide his RES-less ass in the middle of your squad. Thank god he has such high movement, otherwise he might just fall behind the non-zoological turtle formation protecting him from women he isn´t in a relationship with. Clive OHKO´s nothing without a forged Ridersbane, which makes me question 1) how much more money can you throw at your boy and 2) would armors be strong enough to OHKO without forging, because if so, they are no doubt a better user of the Ridersbane considering they take even less damage than bowl cut.

Ah yeah, witches and crits are just bad play by a however large or small part of the community (though ofc the fact that there´s a discussion with dedicated videos defending clives honor would suggest to me a large part with negatively inclived experience) who doesn´t know how to get the most out of a unit and not at all indicative of a weakness of said unit, so let´s dismiss that collective ptsd and 1) abuse AI and if that doesn´t work 2) just reset bro, it´s the LTC way. #notlikethecasuals

 

Clive is a greater liability for longer than Matilda, the good thing is him dying often so you can get intimately familiar with SoV mapcidents and his death unlocking a better knight captain for Valentia.

destroy is a fun word

[Samz707]

1 hour ago, Imuabicus said:

"new" opinion just dropped, why didn´t you provide the footnotes with your initial post

So everything for Clive depends on grinding? Got it, have you heard about our lord/lady and saviour Amelia/Est/Donnel/Mozu and whoever else I´m forgetting? And backtracking is even better, because it spawns more enemies for Clive to feast on! And when we do the same for Mathilda it´s taking away exp from the whole squad, do not forget that!

He´s vulnerable to witches, but handles them just fine unless you didn´t grind, except of course their whole spiel is targetting solo characters so do go ahead and hide his RES-less ass in the middle of your squad. Thank god he has such high movement, otherwise he might just fall behind the non-zoological turtle formation protecting him from women he isn´t in a relationship with. Clive OHKO´s nothing without a forged Ridersbane, which makes me question 1) how much more money can you throw at your boy and 2) would armors be strong enough to OHKO without forging, because if so, they are no doubt a better user of the Ridersbane considering they take even less damage than bowl cut.

Ah yeah, witches and crits are just bad play by a however large or small part of the community (though ofc the fact that there´s a discussion with dedicated videos defending clives honor would suggest to me a large part with negatively inclived experience) who doesn´t know how to get the most out of a unit and not at all indicative of a weakness of said unit, so let´s dismiss that collective ptsd and 1) abuse AI and if that doesn´t work 2) just reset bro, it´s the LTC way. #notlikethecasuals

 

Clive is a greater liability for longer than Matilda, the good thing is him dying often so you can get intimately familiar with SoV mapcidents and his death unlocking a better knight captain for Valentia.

destroy is a fun word

Am I the only person who didn't have Clive die constantly?

I must have been real lucky because I don't recall him dying consistently at all.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

39 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Am I the only person who didn't have Clive die constantly?

Yes.

39 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

I must have been real lucky because I don't recall him dying consistently at all.

benched for safekeeping

[Acacia Sgt]

Never had an issue with him either.

As far as Clive vs Mathilda goes... used both just fine, not much issues there. Granted, last time I played SoV was like in late 2021 or early 2022 and I was still in late Act 3. So not much to tell there.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[SnowFire]

5 hours ago, Newtype06 said:

Clive is A+ tier, while Matilda is B+. Just watch at least these least 4 minutes.

I was going off the link you originally gave to earlier in the video, where they were both at B+ (which I'd say as "both B tier").  I guess they adjusted it as the video went on.  Moving Clive over Alm is crazy, though.  Like...  sure, if you grind Clive to Gold Knight by the start of Act 4 (!!!!) then he'll be good, but that is extreme favoritism.  Anyone can be good in that scenario.  Now, something I will grant to Clive and Gold Knights in general...  if you take into account favoritism, then high-move characters tend to benefit the most, because move is the one stat that's difficult to increase with favoritism.  (Faster promotions, I guess.)  So some sort of Carry-Clive has an inherent advantage over Carry-Lukas from that extra move if both have XP, fountains, etc. thrown at them.  BUT!  This is Shadows of Valentia we're talking about here.  Dread Fighters have surprisingly great move.  And on Alm route, Silque exists, so actually you CAN get some sort of uber-favoritism'd Baron'd into the thick of things via Warp shenanigans.  Basically this means that it's not like Clive does exceptionally better in a "tier list assuming you favor this character and splash them with XP" - he'll do great, sure, I believe it, but so will everyone else.  And unlike a favored Dread Fighter whose movement isn't that worse, even a favored Clive still needs to fear mages, who while less common on Alm route than Celica route, do absolutely still exist.

Echoes difficulty curve, even on Hard, is reasonable enough that anyone can carry (they need to make it so that Alm/Celica can solo the game, after all), but all that means is that you can avoid the very worst rankings from games where a character might be truly dead weight and counterproductive, which pretty much never happens in Echoes, not even with Nomah.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I also never had an issue using Clive, no deaths or anything. He certainly wasn't my best unit, but I didn't think he was bad.

Anyway, speaking of Echoes, one unpopular opinion I have is that I really don't like Leon. His obsession over a man grieving the loss of his family comes off as really icky to me.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I didn't have Clive die constantly but I also thought he had mediocre offence and was one of my weaker units, which anecdotally seems like a pretty common experience.

Of course my playstyle is generally to spread exp around as much as I can with some slight bias towards people who are lower levelled, and to people who are already good. All of that works against Clive, who starts reasonably high-levelled but not particularly good, and apparently needs major exp focus to excel.

[Wuzzy]

Honestly, both Clive and Mathilda are basically the same but I do lean closer to Clive. Clive has a mediocre first impression but his viability really comes from how much you are willing to invest into him whereas Mathilda does come with solid bases and will outpace Clive as a Gold Knight which generally gives off a better first impression.

For me I find that the resources needed to make Clive good are things that either he's the best candidate to use (Ridersbane until Zeke joins, his mobility + physical bulk helps in cavalier dense maps) or things that other top-tier characters don't really need (Speed Fountain, which who else in Alm's army really needs it since most of them have no trouble doubling). He joins 1 level away from promotion and I never really found it necessary for him to be a Paladin for Act 1 on Hard Mode. He'll probably be one of the first characters to promote after Act 1 which is a huge advantage unless you purposefully ignore him (which glancing at some of the posts above, people did). In regards to Sylvan Shrine's EXP fountain, I do find Clive is one of the better recipients of it since he'll be able to promote into a Gold Knight which will improve his stats whereas even if you gave it to Mathilda she'll still be 2 levels short of promoting anyways. 

I will say that I find the whole Clive has low res argument is quite overexaggerated. Witches in general have low AS and Clive will never get doubled by any of them regardless since Paladins have a base SPD of 8, adding on to Clive's high HP he'll generally be able to take a few hits. Also if your goal is to take out Witches, I don't see why you wouldn't want to send in a Sniper or another mage who can actually counter them. 

At the end of the day, it just comes down to how much you are willing to invest into Clive, personally I find the tools needed to make Clive solid are things other characters don't necessarily need or he makes the best use of but all of that is subjective so I can also see people who value Mathilda over Clive. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Wuzzy

[Venger_06]

22 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

So everything for Clive depends on grinding? Got it, have you heard about our lord/lady and saviour Amelia/Est/Donnel/Mozu and whoever else I´m forgetting?

Extremely dishonest argument. Units like Amelia can barely survive a round of battle and need extreme babying to get anywhere near "good". Meanwhile, Clive joins as a capable unit needing only 1 level to promote and become very good. That's in a game where 80% of the units need something to really get going.

22 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

And backtracking is even better, because it spawns more enemies for Clive to feast on! And when we do the same for Mathilda it´s taking away exp from the whole squad, do not forget that!

Firstly, backtracking only causes enemy spawns if you moved past the starting point in Act 3. If not, you can backtrack at will to train and/or promote your units. Second, if you took the optimal path, Clive will already be promoted and ready to take on the paladins in Act 3, making backtracking unnecessary.

22 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

He´s vulnerable to witches, but handles them just fine unless you didn´t grind, except of course their whole spiel is targetting solo characters so do go ahead and hide his RES-less ass in the middle of your squad.

22 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Ah yeah, witches and crits are just bad play by a however large or small part of the community

Witches are slow and Clive has high bulk, they won't 1-hit k.o. him.

22 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

2) would armors be strong enough to OHKO without forging

Maybe, but Armors still have low mov and you're better off warping Alm/Merc/Archer through the map, so Clive still takes the cake.

22 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

who doesn´t know how to get the most out of a unit and not at all indicative of a weakness of said unit, so let´s dismiss that collective ptsd and 1) abuse AI and if that doesn´t work 2) just reset bro, it´s the LTC way. #notlikethecasuals

Clive is a good unit that tricks you into thinking he's a bad unit due to the ways in which he's good not being immediately obvious to first-time players. I experienced this myself.

23 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Clive is a greater liability for longer than Matilda, the good thing is him dying often so you can get intimately familiar with SoV mapcidents and his death unlocking a better knight captain for Valentia.

Mathilda is mediocre, as she has a bunch of major weaknesses that hold her back, like her horrible join level, joining bulk and availability (missing out on a full half of the game, and many of the hardest maps except for the 3 act 4 ones, where she’s bad). The best thing about her is getting her killed to inject some drama in Alm's sterile route

19 hours ago, SnowFire said:

if you grind Clive to Gold Knight by the start of Act 4 (!!!!) then he'll be good, but that is extreme favoritism.  Anyone can be good in that scenario.

By Act 4 the usefulness of Paladins and Gold Knights falls off (and Zeke probably outclasses both Clive and Mathilda anyway). His true use is in Act 3 where he is the best user of Ridersbane and a good part of the enemies you face are cavaliers, and this is the argument proposed in his favor. Mekkah explains all this better in his video that I linked in my first reply.

 

[Saint Rubenio]

48 minutes ago, Newtype06 said:

Clive is a good unit that tricks you into thinking he's a bad unit due to the ways in which he's good not being immediately obvious to first-time players. I experienced this myself.

Cecilia moment lol

You'd think it'd be impossible to make an 8-move unit with C staves and Aircalibur right out of the gate look bad, but FE6 found a way. Fortunately, it is not an unpopular opinion anymore to say Cecilia is good and cool actually. Clive's getting there, slowly but surely.

People are always going on about their Jeigans and their Christmas cavs. How about we coin the Cecilia archetype, for units who are good but the game hates them?

[SnowFire]

1 hour ago, Newtype06 said:

By Act 4 the usefulness of Paladins and Gold Knights falls off (and Zeke probably outclasses both Clive and Mathilda anyway). His true use is in Act 3 where he is the best user of Ridersbane and a good part of the enemies you face are cavaliers, and this is the argument proposed in his favor. Mekkah explains all this better in his video that I linked in my first reply.

The "waifu" video is half an hour, and I don't care about the topic *that* much.  Anyway, this actually goes back to what I was saying before.  If a tier list maker thinks that the hardest and most important maps in the game are early C3 for Alm, that the rest of the game is cleanup, and that Gold Knights fall off later, great!  That's exactly the kind of assumptions needed to get Clive > Mathilda.  I just find it bizarre that Mathilda scores as high as she does under such conditions: I'd think that such assumptions would lead to Clive being "okay" (Alm / Silque / Villagers / Python can still carry just fine in early C3) and Mathilda to being bad.  But she's scoring substantially better than, say, Delthea, who even when wildly underlevel can do safe chip with a Mage Ring.  This only makes sense if you're making heavy use of Mathilda in C4/C5.  (She's scoring much better than Zeke on this tier list, too - I realize you're hyping Zeke, which is fine, but leads me to wonder what's up with the tier list creator who gave Zeke D+.  Gold Knight is NOT a good class for Nuibaba's citadel, the main map between Mathilda & Zeke.  So why is Zeke D+ and Mathilda B+?  Godlike Res for Boss Delthea's map with the witches?!)

As a side note, while going back to the favoritism debate, if you grind one class to Tier 4 in time for Nuibaba's Citadel (so early C4 if not quite the start), then Dread Fighter is the class to do it with.  Nuibaba's Medusa is a uniquely problematic skill to handle, and if you're not Turnwheel scumming or just admitting to potentially having to use a rare Revival Spring on some gambling, Dread Fighter being able to tank a Medusa and not go to 1 HP is huge.  Thankfully there's a Hexlock Shield in the dungeon next door so you're not out of luck without a DF, but still, this is definitely a reason for "if you want to show favoritism, do it on your Mercenary-line Villager."

[Shadow Mir]

On 5/26/2023 at 2:08 PM, Samz707 said:

Am I the only person who didn't have Clive die constantly?

I must have been real lucky because I don't recall him dying consistently at all.

I never had any issue with him myself. He wasn't a star player, but he still got the job done.

[Kirby1up]

I wish the crimson Flower route the tutorial images and edge of dawn song never existed.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

On 5/27/2023 at 7:41 PM, Newtype06 said:

Extremely dishonest argument. Units like Amelia can barely survive a round of battle and need extreme babying to get anywhere near "good". Meanwhile, Clive joins as a capable unit needing only 1 level to promote and become very good. That's in a game where 80% of the units need something to really get going.

Ah I see, lemme sumarize for you: if grinding, bad. 

What does Clive need? Grinding, forgery, stat boosts. What does Mathilda need again? Ah yeah, positioning, in the strategy game. ffs, you literally have to watch that woman not kill herself with success in the first chapter she´s playable in.

On 5/27/2023 at 7:41 PM, Newtype06 said:

Second, if you took the optimal path, Clive will already be promoted and ready to take on the paladins in Act 3, making backtracking unnecessary.

On 5/27/2023 at 7:41 PM, Newtype06 said:

Clive is a good unit that tricks you into thinking he's a bad unit due to the ways in which he's good not being immediately obvious to first-time players. I experienced this myself.

So making Clive good requires a Clive-optimized playtsyle? Hmmmm

On 5/27/2023 at 7:41 PM, Newtype06 said:

Witches are slow and Clive has high bulk, they won't 1-hit k.o. him.

Except ofc they chunk him and according to you he should be in the middle of the fighting where he will take damage. This also ignores, much like your video, the fact that Clive will have to contend with exclusively Mages in 3/2 (before Mathilda joins), in 3/7 there´s 2 witches which deal Clive endangering amounts of damage and 3/8 is yet again only magic enemies. And after that? More mages still.

On 5/27/2023 at 7:41 PM, Newtype06 said:

Maybe, but Armors still have low mov and you're better off warping Alm/Merc/Archer through the map, so Clive still takes the cake.

There are no seize condition, Armors are the most selfsufficient and even according to the video you posted might be so strong as to not require a Ridersbane to kill Cavs, so no, Clive takes nothing. 

On 5/27/2023 at 7:41 PM, Newtype06 said:

Mathilda is mediocre, as she has a bunch of major weaknesses that hold her back, like her horrible join level, joining bulk and availability (missing out on a full half of the game, and many of the hardest maps except for the 3 act 4 ones, where she’s bad).

Yet she performs regardless of her level, her bulk fixes itself upon promo and availability with difficult maps? The hell is a diffcult map in SoV? Maybe Thabes but the rest of the lot is a test of patience at best. 

 

this whole conversation is making me reconsider my opinions on Mozu

then again

[Venger_06]

8 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

What does Clive need? Grinding, forgery, stat boosts. What does Mathilda need again? Ah yeah, positioning, in the strategy game. ffs, you literally have to watch that woman not kill herself with success in the first chapter she´s playable in.

8 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

So making Clive good requires a Clive-optimized playtsyle? Hmmmm

To make Clive good you just need to be efficient. That's it. He's just a cog in the wheel. Gaiden/Echoes are games that were created with a bit of grinding in mind. By exploring Dungeons at least once you are bound to find money (you can also make some cash selling items too) and gain a few levels, and Ridersbane should be your priority alongside the Brave Sword and the Killer Bow. These things should come naturally to you. Just exploring the Deliverance Hideout can be enough to level up, and a promoted Clive is a big help (and that's without factoring into the equation if you intend to use Python, which makes the case for Clive even stronger). Zofia's Castle is arguably the hardest map in the game and, even if you don't want that measly level up, unpromoted Clive is decent on the map.

Mathilda can't fight very well in the map she joins unless you backtrack to grind (triggering reinforcements in the process) or wait until the Sylvan Shrine, where she doesn't fight very well as a lvl 1 unit. Meanwhile, if you're using Clive regularly he's probably on lvl 5 more or less.

Leveling up once with Clive is simply more efficient in the long run than training Mathilda. Saying he's bad because he needs a little care before he gets going is like saying Seliph is a unit bad because he needs it too, especially since those care are things you should already be doing normally in the game to lessen the frustration. Don't get it wrong, Clive doesn't come close to being a Seliph, he's still a good unit and the best Paladin until Zeke joins.

8 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

There are no seize condition, Armors are the most selfsufficient and even according to the video you posted might be so strong as to not require a Ridersbane to kill Cavs, so no, Clive takes nothing. 

Armos are still bogged down by 4 movement. For them to perform similarly to him on this map, they need to be minimally trained, and for that you have to be using them regularly, which is a great opportunity cost. You're better off giving EXP to Alm/Merc/Archer for them to hit certain thresholds in upcoming maps (and maybe even do the Dread Fighter loop).

9 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

The hell is a diffcult map in SoV?

The most tedious.

9 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

this whole conversation is making me reconsider my opinions on Mozu

Mozu good (in Conquest) but she has a lot of opportunity cost.

On 5/27/2023 at 3:42 PM, Saint Rubenio said:

People are always going on about their Jeigans and their Christmas cavs. How about we coin the Cecilia archetype, for units who are good but the game hates them?

But we already have a name for it, it's called bad game design.

[Jotari]

I wouldn't call Zofia the hardest map in the game by any stretch. I think by and large Gaiden very much inverts the classic Fire Emblem difficulty scaling of a hard early game and an easy late game. It gets harder the further you get through (though never gets all that difficult). Zofia castle is the map you clown around in to kill Desaix. Hardest map is probably Nuibaba or Dolth.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Jotari

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

7 hours ago, Newtype06 said:

To make Clive good you just need to be efficient.

last I checked FEplayers thought grinding is the opposite of efficient

8 hours ago, Newtype06 said:

Gaiden/Echoes are games that were created with a bit of grinding in mind.

I haven´t and won´t play Gaiden, much less am I talking about it in this exchange, but I beat SoV the first time without grinding and the fact that the most efficient ways to grind is DLC and there being a low chance of getting destroyed by a rare spawn (which may or may not have happened to me) convinces me otherwise, unless ofc you get a Kaga source for that.

8 hours ago, Newtype06 said:

Zofia's Castle is arguably the hardest map in the game and, even if you don't want that measly level up, unpromoted Clive is decent on the map.

my brother in christ, just no, what the hell are you doing that that´s the most difficult chapter? Just kill Slayde, Desaix is optional and loot is nice but not worth the cancer.

"decent?" to melee units on the map he deals with Iron Lance 1x2 for armor, 7 for cav and 7x2 for soldier and 5 for Slayde and gets retaliated on for 10 for armor, 4 by cav and 7 by soldier and 6x2 by Slayde. Throw Steel on him for +2 on everything and the Cavs now deal 4x2. He needs 5 rounds of combat against a cav to kill them, 4 with Steel. I´m not getting into his damage against archers because you´d need to warp him, which famously, you don´t need on such a high mov unit, but he takes, on not-dodging, 3, 4, 7 dmg. Thinking about that, his combat against Soldier is also irrelevant, since, you know, no warp for high mov guy.

I know, I know, what about the rest of the goons? A 1/7 Soldier Lukas will take 1 or 2 damage from everything on the map except the armors who hit for 5 in retrun he will apply a basic bitch 16 Atk strike for 3 against armor, 7 against Slayde and 9 against cavs. Lukas outdamages and outlasts him no weapon equipped, meaning you could throw some bread on your boy and warp him over yonder and not worry about it. 

I could do the rest of the villagers and Alm comparing them to Clive, with Merc Kliff, Mage Gray/Tobin as seen per the video you posted, but that´s too much work and him being decent is ultimately your and not my argument and my suspicion is everything that has access to magic damage will outdamage Clive.

8 hours ago, Newtype06 said:

Armos are still bogged down by 4 movement. For them to perform similarly to him on this map, they need to be minimally trained, and for that you have to be using them regularly, which is a great opportunity cost. You're better off giving EXP to Alm/Merc/Archer for them to hit certain thresholds in upcoming maps (and maybe even do the Dread Fighter loop).

Ofc, you are very likely to have used at least Lukas at this point, and armors are the best vanguard to have and they do pretty good damage and there are a great many chockepoints in the maps and you get warp early, but yeah, something something give archer exp, who don´t exist before they unlock Killer Bow WA.

Dread Fighter loop my foot. How much more grinding can you fit in one playthrough.

9 hours ago, Newtype06 said:

Mathilda can't fight very well in the map she joins

If it takes Mathilda 2 turns to wipe out one side of the map, that´s still less turns than it took to grind up Clive.

With a Ridersbane +1 she kills everything on the first map except Paladins and boss, with Ridersbane +2 she kills everything except boss and with +3 and cheese and a lvl I think she 1rko´s the boss, lest my math betrayeth me? The same +3 Ridersbane Clive would need not to commit success suicide. But sure, she can´t fight very well. In Sylvan Shrine I can´t actually tell what you are encountering but since there won´t be cavs I assume Clive is gonna get one last moment, in 3/7 there is nothing to threaten Mathilda and she handles the witches better than Clive and then 3/8, the mage special.

 

The more I think about it, Clive has 1/9 + 3/1-3/4 to make any impact and even with going out of your way to make him good all he amounts to is a glorified cavkiller in the easiest maps of the game whose performance is replaced by any other lance user.

[Shadow Mir]

23 hours ago, Newtype06 said:

Zofia's Castle is arguably the hardest map in the game

Is it? Imho, it pales in comparison to Grieth's Citadel or Nuibaba's Abode. Dolth Keep is prolly harder too.