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On 10/17/2019 at 5:35 PM, Silverly said:

 

@QKumber I saw your message board and that sounds horrible. Around 700 quartz and only one SR? Was the servant in question even on rate up? My fullest condolences for RNGsus cursing you.

welp sry for the late reply... I am just super bored with FGO tbh :P

and the rate up was during Yagyu SOLO rate up. Got him once. 

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@Water Mage@MrSmokestack Honestly yeah Osa is actually one of few servant you can genuinely call "all over the place". Thats actually a good way to describe her

 

There are support servants in the game that have godlike button(or at least very high value and heavilly specialied) and mediocre NP, and on flipside servants who have really godlike NP and relatively mediocre buttons. Example of the former is Chiron and Nero Bride. Example of later would be Jeanne and Tamamo

Pre buff Osa is the kind whose button is very mediocre yet her NP isn't quite good enough to make up for it. In a sort of case study situation she's a good showcase of how strong Mash skillset is, and thast because her NP is very reminiscent of Lord Camelot(possitives and negatives wise)

 

Post buff Osa is an "acceptable" GGPG fodder its just that her value is heavilly outdone by GGPG fodder that simply offers more - Chiron offering card buff for NP refill shenanigans and craploads of crit damage and 15 stars, Julius Caesar is just stickier, Reines can improve your damage at roughly the same amount, offers battery, and can give pfa if required etc and her only unique aspect which is her buffwipe requires you to REALLY mind the usage timing(doesn't help that first few bars tend to be less threatening)

 

And of course.... Shapeshift is "bad". I know you would say "BUT WHAT IF THEY HIT HER SHE DOESNT DIE XDDDDD" but at the same time thats effectively a skillslot that does nothing, only prevent you from losing. Post buff Osa shapeshift was what bump her from "Osakabehime as GGPG fodder is literally 1/10/1 Mash with Kscope and is worse than Saint George with Camlann" into "AT LEAST SHE HAVE 50% CRIT BUFF!"

 

 

Fun facts: 90% of the time post buff Osa NP is a shitty version of Lord Camelot because between 2 support from Skadi later down the line you often didn't need the extra 30% Quick boost that would break you into looping areas(the only servant who ever comes close to achieving this is like Lakhsmibai or something since we rarely have a kit-less looper that loop parameter THAT good). The Buster boost is a shitty version of attack boost because thats what buster boost is, as a result you basically jump through hoops for essentially nothing

If you want to see how much people can go Pogchamp for no sensible reason you look at everyone's reaction when they saw the word "Card type buff" when most of the time "Attack buff" does the exact same thing but better. Because really Lanlin Wang does have NP drain but he is basically Osa done right even with his 2nd being a scam

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Here are Space Ishtar’s skills:

S1: increase own atk (3T), increase all allies atk except self (3T) and give them charm immunity (3T)

S2: increase own np dmg (1 use, 3T), change own's np card type (3T)

S3: increase own np gauge, chance for arts up (3T), chance for quick up (3T), chance for buster up (3T)

Changing her NP’s card type is pretty impressive, helps her lot with NP looping. Speaking of NP, here it is:

 

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Meanwhile I can't get over Tokiomi running the mission list... That really caught me by surprise.  What's he doing here IN SPACE?

Are we gonna stab him in the back?  Considering the Christmas events liked to joke about this.

Edited by Glaceon Mage
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Mind that apparently Ishtar's default NP type is Arts, so using her 2nd skill just makes looping harder on her. (Changing an Arts NP to a Quick is basically a downgrade unless you get a ton more hit-count, and changing an Arts NP to a Buster is a side-grade---you get more damage now with a Buster Lead, but you also lose like ~10-30% NP gauge for it.) According to the wiki she doesn't have self-replenishment either, so her NP gain is a bit worse than it looks---and it already looks pretty mediocre since it's .69% per hit with a 2 hit Arts.

Edit: Ah, wait, wiki just wasn't completely updated. Ishtar does have Self-replenishment @ 3.5% a turn. She still has a bit of a slow start if you're trying to loop with her, since you'll probably need her battery to be up for that, but it's probably worth losing a Buster card from the deck to get the rest of her kit, compared to Nobu.

 

I don't think she's bad, but I also don't understand why people think her kit's better than Avenger Nobu's. 30% Charisma is dope, especially with bonus charm immunity, but generally speaking the Avenger is the person you want to be smacking people around anyway. No complaints about the 50% battery, of course, although I wish she didn't have to lose self-replenishment for it.

 

Great passives, of course, although really only the magic resistance ones are relevant, both the 27% 37% MR for herself and the 12% demerit for the team. (Edit: And self-replenishment.)

Edited by DehNutCase
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21 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

And of course.... Shapeshift is "bad". I know you would say "BUT WHAT IF THEY HIT HER SHE DOESNT DIE XDDDDD" but at the same time thats effectively a skillslot that does nothing, only prevent you from losing. Post buff Osa shapeshift was what bump her from "Osakabehime as GGPG fodder is literally 1/10/1 Mash with Kscope and is worse than Saint George with Camlann" into "AT LEAST SHE HAVE 50% CRIT BUFF!"

Or in present JP meta, if they hit her she dies anyway.

Servants have been dying through massive defense buffs for over a year now. Bonus points if they are non crit hits.

21 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

If you want to see how much people can go Pogchamp for no sensible reason you look at everyone's reaction when they saw the word "Card type buff" when most of the time "Attack buff" does the exact same thing but better. Because really Lanlin Wang does have NP drain but he is basically Osa done right even with his 2nd being a scam

The servants that scale better with supports often don't have card buffs. Stacking Atk or NP is much better than stacking a card buff. See Dantes and Gilgamesh.

7 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Mind that apparently Ishtar's default NP type is Arts, so using her 2nd skill just makes looping harder on her. (Changing an Arts NP to a Quick is basically a downgrade unless you get a ton more hit-count, and changing an Arts NP to a Buster is a side-grade---you get more damage now with a Buster Lead, but you also lose like ~10-30% NP gauge for it.)

She's not even good at looping because of her base gain anyway. You'll get more mileage out of changing her NP type to Buster and bruteforcing loops via batteries.

7 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

I don't think she's bad, but I also don't understand why people think her kit's better than Avenger Nobu's. 30% Charisma is dope, especially with bonus charm immunity, but generally speaking the Avenger is the person you want to be smacking people around anyway. No complaints about the 50% battery, of course, although I wish she didn't have to lose self-replenishment for it.

Because one of them is the worst SSR in the game?

NP charge goes a long way to making a servant good. Without it Ishtar's kit would be pretty bad. She's also not extremely niche like Nobu is, let alone being weak in that niche.

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1 hour ago, MrSmokestack said:

Or in present JP meta, if they hit her she dies anyway.

Servants have been dying through massive defense buffs for over a year now. Bonus points if they are non crit hits.

The servants that scale better with supports often don't have card buffs. Stacking Atk or NP is much better than stacking a card buff. See Dantes and Gilgamesh.

She's not even good at looping because of her base gain anyway. You'll get more mileage out of changing her NP type to Buster and bruteforcing loops via batteries.

Because one of them is the worst SSR in the game?

NP charge goes a long way to making a servant good. Without it Ishtar's kit would be pretty bad. She's also not extremely niche like Nobu is, let alone being weak in that niche.

 

 

 

Most other stuff back during Gilfest are relatively stallable/manageable with Defense buff although cherry picking counter per mission is the better route(BB works better against Ecchan than mash simply because nothing in Mash skillset competes against the most spammable stun in the game)

 

The problem isn't def buff per se, and closer to Shapeshift being a do nothing skill

 

Also Ishtar does have set up with Waver and 2 Skadi that uses her Arts loop. Her base gain isn't as much of an issue as being avenger without Crit Absorb AND 3 hit NP(averages 18 stars)

 

Her strongest form is Quick and Arts by far.

 

@DehNutCase Nobu CAN be good so i don't think shes as "unusable!" level bad, but lets put it this way. One of Nobu's issue is her base steroid is very weak at 30%

 

Ishtar base steroid is like 168% and sometimes 201.6%. We're talking the difference between a unit who do 20.000 with NP and another who do 28.000-32.000 with NP and her other skills are better on top of that

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21 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Because one of them is the worst SSR in the game?

NP charge goes a long way to making a servant good. Without it Ishtar's kit would be pretty bad. She's also not extremely niche like Nobu is, let alone being weak in that niche.

I mean, face carding things to death with a triple Buster deck isn't actually extremely niche. This US Halloween event is one where that's really useful. (It's part of why I like bringing Mecha-liz to farm maps, although the bonus damage also helps a lot, obviously.) Adding a Buster card to a hand that didn't have a Buster before is pretty much a 30-50% increase in face card damage.

It's less common than regular events where you're mostly trying to 3 turn maps with AoE NPs, but events with +mob CEs aren't that rare.

 

Beyond that, I'm pretty sure I'm more likely to bring Avenger Nobu to a challenge map than, say, OG!Saber. (Mind, OG!Saber isn't exactly amazing, but it feels hard to justify Nobu being worse than her, and therefore the worst SSR.)

 

Coming back to the Ishtar v. Nobu comparison, though, I'd put them around the same ballpark for CQs. Ishtar fires off more NPs and her NP is better, but her face cards simply aren't on Nobu's level. If Ishtar didn't have Self-replenishment like I'd thought then I would've flat out said Nobu's better, since her NP gain would've been a bad joke, but as is the difference would depend on what kind of supports are available.

If the main support for both of them is Merlin then I'd expect both of them to be around the same level. Ishtar would have to use a Buster NP, obviously, but her better multipliers should more or less make up for the fact that her deck has 2 Busters to Nobu's 3.

 

For farming Ishtar's better, since she's better at the type of farming that happens more often, but that's a meta thing. If we somehow had a nightmare year where every event had +mob CEs, then Nobu would be the better farmer.

1 minute ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

 

@DehNutCase Nobu CAN be good so i don't think shes as "unusable!" level bad, but lets put it this way. One of Nobu's issue is her base steroid is very weak at 30%

 

Ishtar base steroid is like 168% and sometimes 201.6%. We're talking the difference between a unit who do 20.000 with NP and another who do 28.000-32.000 with NP and her other skills are better on top of that

Mind, Ishtar's skills are definitely better, but her card deck is a bad joke with two 1.38% Arts cards. And I don't think this is a situation like Scathach where you can just pretend two of her cards didn't exist, you do actually have to click those Arts cards. Ishtar needs to spam her NP to out damage Nobu's deck. (Ishtar's Quick Card is pretty good, though, and I'd be happier if she traded an Arts for a Quick since she really wanted to play nice with Skadi for the 50% battery.)

 

This is compared to Nobu who managed to cram three 6 hit Busters and a 1.96% Arts card into her deck. Nobu's Quick card is the worst card in her deck, and even there it's still a 4 hit Quick, so not too awful at stargen even if it's below average from a NP gain perspective.

 

Both of them have issues meshing with supports, since Card Type Up isn't too great for Ishtar and Atk Up isn't too great for Nobu. And they don't really want supports with high star weights, either, someone like Nero Bride would probably make them cry if Nero stayed in the front lines, much less Reines.

 

Mind, I'm not saying Ishtar is worse than Nobu. (Although I would've said that if Ishtar didn't have self-replenishment.) Just that, if Ishtar's better, it's not by a significant margin. Ishtar's probably better than Nobu in a vacuum, but if I had to guess I'd say Ishtar + Merlin and Nobu + Merlin would be around the same level, and I don't think any Ishtar + 'X' would be significantly better than Ishtar + Merlin.

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@DehNutCase Using this because quoting is hard with shitty double clicking old mouse sue me

 

1.38 Arts card is something thats better than it seems at least in a sense that Its WAY more severe to have 2.0 Quick than it is to have 1.3 arts. Standard for Arts is 1.7 and the workable thereshold for arts is much lower(after all, the strongest Arts right now is not even close to the strongest quick right now - on a singular observation look at King Hassan whose Arts at 3.0 is significantly stronger than Quick at 5.0 and that is pretty much THE BEST OF THE BEST level card), and 1.38 is roughly 80% of that and while standard for quick is 2.0, it is 3.0 when quick is actually good .

Ishtar also back this up with 2.76 Quick so she have a nearly good quick to back things up

To put this into perspective i personally prefer Ishtar to Enkidu depsite the fact that Enkidu looks more normal. The power disparity between Arts and Quick really is that big.

Ishtar is only 80% off the standard. Scathach, sitting at 1.0 on one of the worst possible deck for pure NP generation, on the other hand is 30% off "fine" level. That is pretty darn huge

 

I personally is a huge fan of Buster Punching because as you can guess my line up is really fucking shitty but the problem is, they really are rare for the most part. If we made tier list based on those  farming Saberlot is probably like Tier 1 and Heracles is Tier 0

In JP standard, Third Born Oniichan is basically able to do both Buster Punch playstyle and battery styled playstyle. Since battery style is so much better it leads into Helena/Waver/Oniichan comp that can farm 90% of contents with 100% consistency

 

Even then i don't think i perfectly in with bringing Nobu in argument for Buster punching playstyle - at least in comparison to Ishtar. Ishtar brings a Charisma, and a 50 Battery to turbo out her NP way more consistently when its go time thats compatible with 50 Batt CE(sumo gives damage, Scope doesn't and your more likely to have the former at MLB for higher stats) so her options is wider. With 3rd proc she can potentially drop things with 44% damage boost. These can further be improved masisvely when you throw Atlas

 

Its fucked up to say it this way, but Nobu(and Ishtar) is not half the damage monster Heracles is so she can't bring Bravery and told everyone to fuck off as she do damage

 

 

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner
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11 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

I mean, face carding things to death with a triple Buster deck isn't actually extremely niche. This US Halloween event is one where that's really useful. (It's part of why I like bringing Mecha-liz to farm maps, although the bonus damage also helps a lot, obviously.) Adding a Buster card to a hand that didn't have a Buster before is pretty much a 30-50% increase in face card damage.

It's less common than regular events where you're mostly trying to 3 turn maps with AoE NPs, but events with +mob CEs aren't that rare.

In a game where Noble Phantasms are the favored source of damage, having a bad NP effect, damage, gain (or combination of the three) is damning. Nobu has a good deck for mindlessly carding down enemies. However it also gives NP gain issues and her steroids aren't good to make up for it. She is also a pre Interlude Buster AOE that always hits for neutral.

11 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Beyond that, I'm pretty sure I'm more likely to bring Avenger Nobu to a challenge map than, say, OG!Saber. (Mind, OG!Saber isn't exactly amazing, but it feels hard to justify Nobu being worse than her, and therefore the worst SSR.)

Saber is a bad example for the comparison. For one, there are many, many SSRs I would consider bad before Artoria. Second, Artoria is actually an excellent farmer, with a post-Interlude NP, a 30% battery and even guaranteed refund for battery looping. She's not a CQ servant, but that's more because she is not as good of a neutral damage dealer as other options. In a Lancer CQ she would be my first pick after Void Shiki.

Nobu, meanwhile, is both a bad farmer and a bad point servant. She can't crit without flooding the board, and she needs to swing against Divine for her damage to not be trash. I haven't even mentioned that I could have just used another Divine-slaying servant instead of her.

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55 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

In a game where Noble Phantasms are the favored source of damage, having a bad NP effect, damage, gain (or combination of the three) is damning. Nobu has a good deck for mindlessly carding down enemies. However it also gives NP gain issues and her steroids aren't good to make up for it. She is also a pre Interlude Buster AOE that always hits for neutral.

Nobu's NP gain is on the high end for Beserkers, though, who are her main competition in the face card things until they die role. (20% Battery + 3.3% a turn)

Her damage is definitely lacking (no Beserker 1.5x versus everything) & noodle arms on the NP, but if having bad NP gain by itself is damning then Arjuna (Alter) is damned. (30% Battery & no passive gain.)

 

Mind, Arjuna is way better, but that's because he hits like a truck & actually gets to crit, their NP gains are comparable.

1 hour ago, MrSmokestack said:

Saber is a bad example for the comparison. For one, there are many, many SSRs I would consider bad before Artoria. Second, Artoria is actually an excellent farmer, with a post-Interlude NP, a 30% battery and even guaranteed refund for battery looping. She's not a CQ servant, but that's more because she is not as good of a neutral damage dealer as other options. In a Lancer CQ she would be my first pick after Void Shiki.

Nobu, meanwhile, is both a bad farmer and a bad point servant. She can't crit without flooding the board, and she needs to swing against Divine for her damage to not be trash. I haven't even mentioned that I could have just used another Divine-slaying servant instead of her.

Nobu gains 26.6% NP gauge from her skills over the course of a 3 turn farming run, if 30% is good enough as a battery Nobu is actually almost there. The 3% left for be an issue for just about anyone else with a triple Buster deck, but Nobu happens to get 3% from her Buster cards with an Arts lead. Saber is definitely more consistent with better neutral damage, and has full damage in all 3 waves (assuming she only NPs once) unlike Nobu who wants to wait for the last wave, but unless you're looping Saber's NP their NP gain isn't very different.

 

For looping purposes Saber has 23-30% more NP gauge relative to Nobu but also loses her damage lead for the first NP, because 1.33 (for the NP upgrade) * 1.18 (charisma) is 1.57, actually lower than Nobu's 1.1 (Avenger) * 1.5 (2nd turn of 1st skill) = 1.65. Saber still stomps on Nobu for the 2nd NP, of course, thanks to Mana Burst. 1.33 * 1.5 * 1.18 = 2.35 vs. 1.7 * 1.1 = 1.87.

Since Nobu also has 1k more Atk, things end up being Nobu does about 15% more damage for the 1st Np and Saber does about 15% more damage for the second Np, and Artoria has 23-30% more NP gauge. Artoria's definitely better, especially considering Nobu doesn't really get to fire off her NP in the first turn, but for practical purposes she's better by 30% NP gauge at most.

 

If we're not looping Artoria has either 30% or 15% more damage (depending on whether Nobu NPs turn 2 or turn 3)*, if we are looping the difference is 23-30% Np gauge. If Nobu is bad at farming then Artoria is better, but still bad. It's the difference between a guy rated at D tier and a guy at C tier, yeah, there's a definite and notable difference, but they're pretty close.

*I'm assuming she gets to turn 2 or turn 3 NP because it's a farming run, so you can optimize NP order a fair bit.

 

 

For CQs, if you're going to mention Lancers then Nobu would be fighting Rulers. Not divine Rulers, mind, just regular Rulers. But when I said I'd be more likely to bring Nobu I meant that I'd be more likely to bring her in for her neutral damage, that is, vs. non-Rulers, non-Divines, and non-Moon Cancer, similar to how I'd be considering Saber vs. non-Lancers and non-Archers. She's basically a Beserker with 23k hp and 8.4k Atk, and I'd slot her into a team the same way I slot Beserkers into a lineup. That is, rather than having 1 or 2 main damage dealers while the supports drop like flies, I'd have 1 or 2 main supports while the damage dealers drop like flies.

 

That said, I still value Beserkers very highly since attrition isn't really a problem in CQs yet, maybe that'll change as we get more of Japan's CQs into the US version.

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Berserker is still good at least conceptually. Able to do good damage against everything and defensive capability can be done through skillset. 

The real issue with Berserker is 90% of them have shitty buffset so you need to jump an extra hurdle beyond their 1.5 if the situation allows 2.0 damage modifier and they cant crit easilly so in a way theres flexibility issue with them

Doesnt help theres a limited unit choice as well. AOE is a big deal. We only have 3 and 2 of them are released this year

Remember one of the strongest Zerker in JP is a day 1 SR servant who never get any sort of buff whatsoever. Thats how low the average Berserker power level are.

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner
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I'm finally done with the Halloween event (there's a few mats left in the shop but nothing that I need). I can't say I was the biggest fan of the story but Mk.II has pretty nice bond lines and having an Alter Ego is going to come in handy soon. 

Also, it seems NA is getting quite a few SQ in the next few days. If I recall correctly it's like 70 or so which is cool.

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6 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

Strange feeling when you finish an event in the first three days and spend the rest farming shop currency.

Only have Wine left in the shop now at least.

The real question is how much life you have left

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13 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

The real question is how much life you have left

I just wish we'd stop getting mission events. Almost every event between both servers this year was mission-based.

Edited by MrSmokestack
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So yeah. After a month I'm back. Probably needed a break again. Ditched Heroes for good this time unless it's 4.0 launch has anything that redeems the current state of the game. GBF on the background, but I'm okay with not trying to be too invested in it's competitive aspect.

2 hours ago, Water Mage said:

I don’t mind mission based events, but I hate the fact that mission events with welfare always require you to level welfare, and it’s such a waste of embers.

More often if not, welfares get a damage bonus so it can end up making farming easier for you. I understand wanting to focus such an amount of embers on something else, but we get plenty of events without welfares already. Then again, FGO does a good job of characterizing most of it's servants so I wouldn't be surprised if so many servants are a priority.

Take this with a grain of salt, but there's rumours of the next welfare for Christmas being

Spoiler

Anastasia. She has a skill in SWII called Ded Moroz, who is a version of Santa in Eastern Slavic countries. Of course she's basically a winter themed servant so it could be a bunch of players taking things too literally.

If true, I for one welcome our sweet overlord welfare. Again, if true. But I have to wait 2 years then. Oof.

Edited by redlight
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15 hours ago, Water Mage said:

I don’t mind mission based events, but I hate the fact that mission events with welfare always require you to level welfare, and it’s such a waste of embers.

Starting with Santa Quetz's first run, Welfares get doubled EXP while their event is on (reruns included).  Meaning you need only around 134 or so 4* embers to get them to 80.  It's a good investment when that happens.  

There were a lot of mission events this year on JP as well.  Prisma Codes rerun, SE.RA.PH rerun, Gudaguda 3 rerun, Case Files, Summer 4, and Saber Wars II, though the last one lacks a welfare.

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7 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

Santa Anastasia would be pretty cool.

Also people are hating this new CQ in JP apparently. It's GilFest Sheba on steroids.

Impossible. They made a shitty CQ and it doesnt feature Zilongs Waifu

This is the worst timeline

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I am shocked of how bad my luck is for getting Hassan. 120 sq and the only highlights are Heaven's feel and Devilish Bodhisattva craft essences. For one of the tickets it turned sliver to gold only to show me despair and be Assassin Paraiso. Game is cruel in a comic sense.

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7 hours ago, redlight said:

I had a horrible nightmare. The goose from Untitled Goose Game was JP's Christmas welfare.

That's a nightmare?

Because it'd be a step up from the Halloween welfare by virtue of existing, and it also sounds pretty hilarious.

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