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3 hours ago, Rezzy said:

So, I just got to

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Gawain

in Camelot, and he completely walls my team.  I heard Euryle is good against him, but I don't have her built at all, and no real stockpile of XP or mats to build her up.  Does anyone have her built that I could borrow as a support?

This is the first time I've really run into something that I couldn't handle.

EDIT: I kept spamming refresh until one of my friends with Euryle came up and managed to beat it, not fun.

It's been a while but I think you'll face him a second time (albeit a bit weaker). If you want I can put my Euryale in the ALL spot. She's grailed to 90 and 10/10/10 so she'll make mince meat of the Gorilla. 

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2 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

I think any high level archer would completely destroy him? Would've been fine to just take the first single target 5* archer you saw, I think.

 

Gawain has 30% damage resistance according the wiki, so my Artoria should take off at least half his HP with a single NP. (Assuming Gawain has 500k hp.)

I've got evil Emiya, albeit not fully built or leveled and tried using a support Gilgamesh and still got obliterated.

2 hours ago, Alexmender said:

It's been a while but I think you'll face him a second time (albeit a bit weaker). If you want I can put my Euryale in the ALL spot. She's grailed to 90 and 10/10/10 so she'll make mince meat of the Gorilla. 

That would be very helpful, actually,  Hopefully it doesn't take me too long to get through the rest of Camelot.

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3 hours ago, Rezzy said:

I've got evil Emiya, albeit not fully built or leveled and tried using a support Gilgamesh and still got obliterated.

Mind, Gilgamesh is AoE. His NP after Strengthening is pretty good, damage wise, but Orion and Artoria should out-damage him, and Orion and Artoria both have defense buffs, unlike Gilgamesh. Moriarty is only comparable to Gilgamesh in terms of damage, though, and he doesn't have bulk either. (Orion, Artoria, and Moriarty are the current 5* ST archers.)

But yeah, I checked the wiki again his damage reduction is higher the first two times you fight him. (70% for the fight without his NP, and 50% for the one with.) So you probably did need the stronger ST archers unless your roster is packed with strong supports.

 

Anyway, if you happen to see my Artoria feel free to try her out outside of Gawain's fight to see how she plays. Tell me if you want a different CE than Black Grail, too.

I personally think she's the strongest Challenge Quest archer, but my perception might be colored since Waver & Nero Bride are basically the two best supports for her, and I have both.

Edited by DehNutCase
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44 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Mind, Gilgamesh is AoE. His NP after Strengthening is pretty good, damage wise, but Orion and Artoria should out-damage him, and Orion and Artoria both have defense buffs, unlike Gilgamesh. Moriarty is only comparable to Gilgamesh in terms of damage, though, and he doesn't have bulk either. (Orion, Artoria, and Moriarty are the current 5* ST archers.)

Against most Servants (including Gawain), at the same NP level, and with only self-buffs, Enuma Elish does roughly the same damage as Excalibur Vivian, assuming the support Gilgamesh had the interlude done.  Super Effective modifier against most Servants plus the NP damage buff added by the interlude lets Gilgamesh basically do ST damage with an AOE NP, and is the primary reason why he's one of the top Buster pointmen, regardless of whether the quest is AOE or ST.  In this case, Gil should actually out-damage Archuria because he's Sky while Gawain and Archuria are both Earth.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wc80dpN8-OwH_wf-wrV5zb79d4Smy-WQxkIP1YABPE8/edit#gid=0

If you can support him, Gil should be fine, but if you don't have support, then Archuria/Orion are better for the reasons you mentioned.

Edited by YotsuMaboroshi
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5 hours ago, Rezzy said:

I've got evil Emiya, albeit not fully built or leveled and tried using a support Gilgamesh and still got obliterated.

That would be very helpful, actually,  Hopefully it doesn't take me too long to get through the rest of Camelot.

The go to way to beat Gawain is to solo with Orion. Its what i did back in JP when i rushed lol

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41 minutes ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

Against most Servants (including Gawain), at the same NP level, and with only self-buffs, Enuma Elish does roughly the same damage as Excalibur Vivian, assuming the support Gilgamesh had the interlude done.  Super Effective modifier against most Servants plus the NP damage buff added by the interlude lets Gilgamesh basically do ST damage with an AOE NP, and is the primary reason why he's one of the top Buster pointmen, regardless of whether the quest is AOE or ST.  In this case, Gil should actually out-damage Archuria because he's Sky while Gawain and Archuria are both Earth.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wc80dpN8-OwH_wf-wrV5zb79d4Smy-WQxkIP1YABPE8/edit#gid=0

If you can support him, Gil should be fine, but if you don't have support, then Archuria/Orion are better for the reasons you mentioned.

The issue with Gilgamesh vs. Artoria is that Artoria gets more NPs off as long as the boss needed more than a single NP to kill. (If the boss only needs 1 NP to kill then Gilgamesh has the advantage since he has a battery, but any amount more than that and Artoria's absurd refund and durability wins.)

If you could do 400k damage to a neutral target (50% damage reduction & class advantage is basically neutral) as Gil then this isn't an issue, but otherwise the fact that Artoria has a much easier time getting her NPs after the first off and the fact that she actually survives to get those NPs off means she does more damage.

 

Also, the Sky advantage is basically the same as the factor of both Gilgamesh and Artoria getting NP levels. The reason Gil's NP is so good is because, at NP level 1, his NP hits like a ST NP. But that stops being true once you get to higher NP levels, because his NP still scales like a AoE NP while Artoria's scales like a ST NP.

My Artoria is NP4.

575% (NP4 AoE buster after inteluder) * 1.5 (Enuma Elish) * 1.5 (Buster Card Multipler) = 1293.75% damage. (About 13 arts cards worth of damage.)

Artoria has 1425% at NP4, or about 1425/1293.75 = 1.10144927536, a 10% damage lead in terms of NP damage.

That's besides the point, though, in terms of NP damage Gil and Artoria are similar enough that it's not the big factor in determining who does more damage. It's who fires off more NPs that matters, which is determined by how many NPs it takes to kill the boss.

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11 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

The issue with Gilgamesh vs. Artoria is that Artoria gets more NPs off as long as the boss needed more than a single NP to kill. (If the boss only needs 1 NP to kill then Gilgamesh has the advantage since he has a battery, but any amount more than that and Artoria's absurd refund and durability wins.)

If you could do 400k damage to a neutral target (50% damage reduction & class advantage is basically neutral) as Gil then this isn't an issue, but otherwise the fact that Artoria has a much easier time getting her NPs after the first off and the fact that she actually survives to get those NPs off means she does more damage.

 

Also, the Sky advantage is basically the same as the factor of both Gilgamesh and Artoria getting NP levels. The reason Gil's NP is so good is because, at NP level 1, his NP hits like a ST NP. But that stops being true once you get to higher NP levels, because his NP still scales like a AoE NP while Artoria's scales like a ST NP.

My Artoria is NP4.

575% (NP4 AoE buster after inteluder) * 1.5 (Enuma Elish) * 1.5 (Buster Card Multipler) = 1293.75% damage. (About 13 arts cards worth of damage.)

Artoria has 1425% at NP4, or about 1425/1293.75 = 1.10144927536, a 10% damage lead in terms of NP damage.

That's besides the point, though, in terms of NP damage Gil and Artoria are similar enough that it's not the big factor in determining who does more damage. It's who fires off more NPs that matters, which is determined by how many NPs it takes to kill the boss.

Yeah i think Arch on ST situation only loses to Gil when supported and even then 90% of that is Tamamo being weak and (after JP buff) unoptimized as all hell

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1 minute ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Yeah i think Arch on ST situation only loses to Gil when supported and even then 90% of that is Tamamo being weak and (after JP buff) unoptimized as all hell

Well, there's a reason I have NP2 Bride and NP0 Tamamo. X1pzHie.gif

But seriously, Bride's strong enough that Artoria should be fine even after factoring in supports, since Bride has comparable buffs and a damaging NP to boot. Poster Girl, Plugsuit, and Chen Gong should mean that Tamamo's NP and lower CDs basically doesn't matter, since you're better off rotating in a fresh servant for their skills rather than getting a second use of the ones already on the board.

The 31.25% (assuming overcharge from following Artoria's NP) NP gauge from Tamamo's NP is nice, but it's not worth sacrificing a brave chain over, so you'd only use it when you get a bad draw.

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Yeah, I'm pretty reliant on supports, since my own roster is a bit lacking.  The only 5*s I have are Arthur, Waver, and Drake.  They get most stuff done, but against enemies they're weak against, it's hard.

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2 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Yeah, I'm pretty reliant on supports, since my own roster is a bit lacking.  The only 5*s I have are Arthur, Waver, and Drake.  They get most stuff done, but against enemies they're weak against, it's hard.

You don’t need to rely solely on SSR to wins battles. 4 Stars, 3 Stars, 2 Stars and 1Stars in this game are actually pretty damn strong and sometimes even better than SSRs. It’s definitely worth you time raising them. 

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5 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

You don’t need to rely solely on SSR to wins battles. 4 Stars, 3 Stars, 2 Stars and 1Stars in this game are actually pretty damn strong and sometimes even better than SSRs. It’s definitely worth you time raising them. 

I've got 3* Cu on my team, and have been working on leveling my welfares, too.

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4 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I've got 3* Cu on my team, and have been working on leveling my welfares, too.

Cu is a pretty good survivalist and welfares are often great. Sorry if I sounded pushy, it’s just that sometimes people who comes to FGO from other gacha games often think that the lower rarity Servants are worthless.

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1 minute ago, Water Mage said:

Cu is a pretty good survivalist and welfares are often great. Sorry if I sounded pushy, it’s just that sometimes people who comes to FGO from other gacha games often think that the lower rarity Servants are worthless.

Nah, just the lower level cap seems to hurt a bit, and resources are pretty limited, so I had to focus on only a few characters.

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Completely unrelated:

The 'Cry of Fear -BATTLE 6-' track is now in the soundtracks portion. It's the dope ass music that plays when you fight Abigail in Salem.

 

Too bad the soundtracks section only lets you listen to one track at a time on infinite loop, or else I might just leave Nox open to play songs. : /

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2 hours ago, Rezzy said:

I have now beaten Camelot, thanks for the help, everyone

Awesome! Babylonia is not as hard as Camelot but it still can be challenging! Expect to see more boss fights with gimmicks for now on. There is a chapter even harder than Camelot, but it will only release in NA at April 2022, so plenty of time to build a strong team.

Edited by Water Mage
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1 hour ago, Water Mage said:

Awesome! Babylonia is not as hard as Camelot but it still can be challenging! Expect to see more boss fights with gimmicks for now on. There is a chapter even harder than Camelot, but it will only release in NA at April 2022, so plenty of time to build a strong team.

Eh, I'd say most of the post part 1 chapters harder than Camelot, since break bars introduce quite a bit of difficulty.  The only Camelot fight I'd say still competes with modern content is Gawain, maaaaaybe Mordred but she's really easy to just stall to death.

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11 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Eh, I'd say most of the post part 1 chapters harder than Camelot, since break bars introduce quite a bit of difficulty.  The only Camelot fight I'd say still competes with modern content is Gawain, maaaaaybe Mordred but she's really easy to just stall to death.

Break bars do add difficulty but not that much. The only really hard chapter after Camelot is Shimousa I think. Others chapters have difficulty battles, but nothing as hard as Olympus. Sure a certain wolf Avenger in Shinjiku and a certain Berserker in Agatharta can be hard but a friend’s BB and a friend’s Foreigner can beat those battles.

Edited by Water Mage
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2 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

Break bars do add difficulty but not that much. The only really hard chapter after Camelot is Shimousa I think. Others chapters have difficulty battles, but nothing as hard as Olympus. Sure a certain wolf Avenger in Shinjiku and a certain Berserker in Agatharta can be hard but a friend’s BB and a friend’s Foreigner can beat those battles.

Well, yeah, but even in Camelot difficulty tends to be concentrated around a few specific boss fights, and the fights where the difficulty is concentrated in modern content are generally just as or more difficult than what the difficult parts of Camelot throws at you.

Surtr in Gotterdanmerung, just about every major boss in SIN, Arjuna Alter, etc are all waaaaaay harder than Ch 4 Gawain (the hardest thing Camelot has) is.

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I remember appmedia made a tweet about Olympus. Where the writers gave up going a low rarity run since it was impossible. I have a bad feeling about what DW will pull next to make fights difficult excluding massive health pools and crits for days. 

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1 hour ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Well, yeah, but even in Camelot difficulty tends to be concentrated around a few specific boss fights, and the fights where the difficulty is concentrated in modern content are generally just as or more difficult than what the difficult parts of Camelot throws at you.

Surtr in Gotterdanmerung, just about every major boss in SIN, Arjuna Alter, etc are all waaaaaay harder than Ch 4 Gawain (the hardest thing Camelot has) is.

While I did hear about QSH and Arjuna Alter, I don’t hear people bemoaning about them as much as say, Gawain and Demeter. So I didn’t think of them as super hard.

 

58 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

I remember appmedia made a tweet about Olympus. Where the writers gave up going a low rarity run since it was impossible. I have a bad feeling about what DW will pull next to make fights difficult excluding massive health pools and crits for days. 

Well, Honako Green a FGO Youtuber and Streamer managed to do it. He’s famous for only using low rarity Servants and managed to beat some Olympus boss fights without mostly Gold Servants.

Edited by Water Mage
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1 minute ago, Water Mage said:

While I did hear about QSH and Arjuna Alter, I don’t hear people bemoaning about them as much as say, Gawain and Demeter. So I didn’t think of them as super hard.

 

Well, Honako Green a FGO Youtuber and Streamer managed to do it. He’s famous for only using low rarity Servants and managed to beat Olympus without a single Gold Servant.

I think the main reason Gawain is commented on so much is he's the first real beef gate in the entire game, not so much that he's the hardest thing in it.  

Arjuna Alter is honestly one of the most bullshit fights in the entire game.  His standard damage output is absolutely absurd (seeing him OHKO things with regular attacks isn't uncommon), he's completely immune to debuffs, and his final break effect buffs him with NP damage up and ignore invincible and fully charges his NP.  

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11 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

While I did hear about QSH and Arjuna Alter, I don’t hear people bemoaning about them as much as say, Gawain and Demeter. So I didn’t think of them as super hard.

 

Well, Honako Green a FGO Youtuber and Streamer managed to do it. He’s famous for only using low rarity Servants and managed to beat some Olympus boss fights without mostly Gold Servants.

Oh yeah I forgot about him. He said about Olympus that there are fights not to be rushed that the bosses there are not to be taken lightly. Have to keep that in mind when it comes around.

17 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

I think the main reason Gawain is commented on so much is he's the first real beef gate in the entire game, not so much that he's the hardest thing in it.  

Arjuna Alter is honestly one of the most bullshit fights in the entire game.  His standard damage output is absolutely absurd (seeing him OHKO things with regular attacks isn't uncommon), he's completely immune to debuffs, and his final break effect buffs him with NP damage up and ignore invincible and fully charges his NP.  

I wish there was more utility for skills regarding debuff immunity. Earlier  servants (Robin hood) go down when thay can't apply debuffs. Already annoying when most of the cast has some form magic resistance but taken to the next level.

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16 hours ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Eh, I'd say most of the post part 1 chapters harder than Camelot, since break bars introduce quite a bit of difficulty.  The only Camelot fight I'd say still competes with modern content is Gawain, maaaaaybe Mordred but she's really easy to just stall to death.

Mordred is like the easiest fight on camelot because of how it played, i would say the very first fight in Camelot with 60k mob is harder than her tbh

The story even know about it, since her power is literally made fun of

15 hours ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Well, yeah, but even in Camelot difficulty tends to be concentrated around a few specific boss fights, and the fights where the difficulty is concentrated in modern content are generally just as or more difficult than what the difficult parts of Camelot throws at you.

Surtr in Gotterdanmerung, just about every major boss in SIN, Arjuna Alter, etc are all waaaaaay harder than Ch 4 Gawain (the hardest thing Camelot has) is.

And yeah i agree with this Gawain had a harder design than some of these but due to how he's set up a lot of these are harder. He's more difficult than 90% of LB4 and LB5 i guess but thats not saying much

 

14 hours ago, Water Mage said:

While I did hear about QSH and Arjuna Alter, I don’t hear people bemoaning about them as much as say, Gawain and Demeter. So I didn’t think of them as super hard.

 

Well, Honako Green a FGO Youtuber and Streamer managed to do it. He’s famous for only using low rarity Servants and managed to beat some Olympus boss fights without mostly Gold Servants.

As someone who actually play these

 

QSH is a complete joke, the ONLY thing difficult about QSH is after he NP once you had 1 turn of coinflip where he wiped you. The fight gave you insane damage buff to the point that Jalter can just broke trhough

 

I finished LB3 in a single day and i can tell you QSH is nowhere near a highlight in that entire day. Its roughly Xiang Yu Dual >>>>>>>  Li before you figure it out >> Li AFTER you figure it out > 15 Mob >>>>> QSH

He is to Xiang Yu Dual what Lion King were to Gawain, a fight so much less notable that whent he anniversary gave out the highlight reel fight, for LB3 they didn't give QSH. They give Xiang Yu dual.

 

Demeter im kinda eh on. On one hand she IS one of the difficult fights, on the other hand its hard to see her as hard once you figure her stuff out. Archer Nurse is really good in that fight and makes her a 3-5 try

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner
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1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

I finished LB3 in a single day and i can tell you QSH is nowhere near a highlight in that entire day. Its roughly Xiang Yu Dual >>>>>>>  Li before you figure it out >> Li AFTER you figure it out > 15 Mob >>>>> QSH

By 15 mob, do you mean the fight right before Old Li?  Because that's literally just a matter of grabbing a friend's Amakusa and letting him go nuts, since he basically nopes the entire gimmick of the fight because those buffs are removable for some reason.  

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