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7 hours ago, Alexmender said:

I finally got her, those tickets were a good investment! Extra happy because I've wanted her for the longest time.

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Now I can freely do extreme stall memes with BB/Tamamo/Mash. Guess this should be able to defeat everything sans Insta-death spammers even if it costs my sanity in the process.

 

Best of all, you don’t really need to waste QP leveling her skills. Her kit is pretty bad and she lives and breathes by her NP. And those stall strategies may be boring as hell but they are damn effective.

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6 hours ago, Water Mage said:

Best of all, you don’t really need to waste QP leveling her skills. Her kit is pretty bad and she lives and breathes by her NP. And those stall strategies may be boring as hell but they are damn effective.

I wouldn't say her kit is completely worthless, it's just very primitive. Her 3rd skill can be pretty clutch if the game throws you a bad hand (BBBQQ despite having a team with 8~9 arts cards, it'll happen at least once during stall battles) when the enemy servant has their NP charged while Jeanne's isn't.

Her 1st, while outdated, is a nice boost to her NP gain because 9/10 times she'll have the highest star gather rate in a stall team and you really want to have her NP up every 3~4 turns so the crits are appreciated. I know 2030 is superior but in stall teams using CEs that give NP gain/NP charge is better in the long run, which is the main reason I'm so happy to have my own Jeanne now, every support Jeanne has either 2030 or other crappy CEs instead of something like Magical Girl of Sapphire/Divine Banquet/Prisma Cosmos which is infinitely more useful.

Her 2nd skill is trash and needs an strengthening ASAP, 30% NP dmg down is laughable, if she could get a NP charge or 3 turn Atk down on that skill it would be great.

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Holmes kept avoiding me like the plague. I went and rolled on the Story gacha out of frustration and ended up with a third Cu Alter, Quetz and Enkidu in the same rolling session. I’ll try for Holmes again when he’s with the Agartha Servants and hopefully get Columbus. 

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Personally I value a 100% AoE stun at the level of Tamamo's NP*, so I'm fine with Jeanne's kit, even if every skill is a tad underpowered. Jeanne's is single target and vulnerable to debuff resistance (and debuff success up or debuff resist down are fairly hard to find), but it's still damn good as a skill.

*A stun saves the hp Tamamo would've healed by preventing the enemy team from attacking, a team with good generation stats would easily get the equivalent of 25% NP gauge each from a turn of cards (although some of that would come in the form of crit stars rather than NP Gauge), and a stalled turn is another -1 CD to all your skills compared to not having stunned the enemy team. The fact that the enemy team still gets an NP tick is annoying, but the stun adds a turn of damage so it's a worthwhile trade-off compared to Tamamo's NP (which actually costs you a card's worth of damage rather than giving you 3 cards worth of damage) even if you aren't using the stun when the enemy has their NP ready.

 

Her 1st isn't bad as a concept, but the numbers are disappointing. It should be either 5 CD to synch up with the typical offensive skill CDs---which would make it easily comparable to the effects of running a 2030 despite only being up 60% of the time, thanks to the fact that crit stars are more valuable when you have buffs up*---or else it needs to give a bit more stars. Hans level 15 stars/turn at 5 cd would be overkill, but 5cd or 15 stars would be more than enough.

*Yeah, crit stars also improves your resource generation even during turns where buffs are down, but resource generation is what Prisma Cosmos is for, particularly in the case of early servants who don't actually get that much NP from hitting things.

 

Her 2nd skill is a bit of an oddball skill, in that you need to stack NP damage down or have everyone on your team have Jeanne level bulk for it to be worth it. The typical case is already covered by Jeanne's NP, so it's mostly for use against people who can ignore Jeanne's Defense Up and Invulnerability, weakening them with debuffs rather than defending the team with buffs. That said, Jeanne is probably the best person to have an ultra-niche defensive skill like this, because she already has the ordinary cases covered, rather than being someone who can only cover the niche cases where invul or defense stacking doesn't work. (Melt also has a combo like this, except her dodge is self only in exchange for her NP Damage Down being AoE and 50%.)

The issue with Jeanne's 2nd Skill's niche is that people who can afford to run Jeanne can probably afford to specifically build a team vs. people with buff removal or invul pierce, and you just drop Jeanne from the team entirely rather than leveraging the 2nd skill. It also shares the problem with her stun in that it's single target and not reliable vs. debuff resistance. It's actually even less reliable than her stun because her stun actually has 120% at level 10, which beats most passive sources of debuff resistance.

 

The main problem with Jeanne, though, isn't that she's bad. (She's very good.) It's that she's slow. It's more important to be good than to be fast, but as long as the game is easy (which is most definitely is, at least in NA), being fast is a bigger concern than being good. Just about everyone is good, so the people who end fights quickly are more important than the people who can lower the failure rate even further.

Clearly we need to get Jeanne Bunker Bolt to fix that issue, Kappa. Just staple it to her Revelation.

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1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Personally I value a 100% AoE stun at the level of Tamamo's NP*, so I'm fine with Jeanne's kit, even if every skill is a tad underpowered. Jeanne's is single target and vulnerable to debuff resistance (and debuff success up or debuff resist down are fairly hard to find), but it's still damn good as a skill.

*A stun saves the hp Tamamo would've healed by preventing the enemy team from attacking, a team with good generation stats would easily get the equivalent of 25% NP gauge each from a turn of cards (although some of that would come in the form of crit stars rather than NP Gauge), and a stalled turn is another -1 CD to all your skills compared to not having stunned the enemy team. The fact that the enemy team still gets an NP tick is annoying, but the stun adds a turn of damage so it's a worthwhile trade-off compared to Tamamo's NP (which actually costs you a card's worth of damage rather than giving you 3 cards worth of damage) even if you aren't using the stun when the enemy has their NP ready.

 

Her 1st isn't bad as a concept, but the numbers are disappointing. It should be either 5 CD to synch up with the typical offensive skill CDs---which would make it easily comparable to the effects of running a 2030 despite only being up 60% of the time, thanks to the fact that crit stars are more valuable when you have buffs up*---or else it needs to give a bit more stars. Hans level 15 stars/turn at 5 cd would be overkill, but 5cd or 15 stars would be more than enough.

*Yeah, crit stars also improves your resource generation even during turns where buffs are down, but resource generation is what Prisma Cosmos is for, particularly in the case of early servants who don't actually get that much NP from hitting things.

 

Her 2nd skill is a bit of an oddball skill, in that you need to stack NP damage down or have everyone on your team have Jeanne level bulk for it to be worth it. The typical case is already covered by Jeanne's NP, so it's mostly for use against people who can ignore Jeanne's Defense Up and Invulnerability, weakening them with debuffs rather than defending the team with buffs. That said, Jeanne is probably the best person to have an ultra-niche defensive skill like this, because she already has the ordinary cases covered, rather than being someone who can only cover the niche cases where invul or defense stacking doesn't work. (Melt also has a combo like this, except her dodge is self only in exchange for her NP Damage Down being AoE and 50%.)

The issue with Jeanne's 2nd Skill's niche is that people who can afford to run Jeanne can probably afford to specifically build a team vs. people with buff removal or invul pierce, and you just drop Jeanne from the team entirely rather than leveraging the 2nd skill. It also shares the problem with her stun in that it's single target and not reliable vs. debuff resistance. It's actually even less reliable than her stun because her stun actually has 120% at level 10, which beats most passive sources of debuff resistance.

 

The main problem with Jeanne, though, isn't that she's bad. (She's very good.) It's that she's slow. It's more important to be good than to be fast, but as long as the game is easy (which is most definitely is, at least in NA), being fast is a bigger concern than being good. Just about everyone is good, so the people who end fights quickly are more important than the people who can lower the failure rate even further.

Clearly we need to get Jeanne Bunker Bolt to fix that issue, Kappa. Just staple it to her Revelation.

 

I don't think Jeanne's Stun(and NP hah) is exactly a Tamamo Np though, although half a Tamamo NP is more correct - This is because during the turn Tamamo NP is deployed, the next turn CD is reduced by 2 - 1 from NP and 1 from turn cycle.

 

Fun facts: Jeanne's star per turn actually IS underpowered, its a leftovers from early days when Innocent Monster is a 5 CD SPT with def debuff, so Rev with 6 CD plain looks good, looks being the keyword here since before long DW realized its a stupid idea, and 5 turn star per turn become the standard

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2 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

 

I don't think Jeanne's Stun(and NP hah) is exactly a Tamamo Np though, although half a Tamamo NP is more correct - This is because during the turn Tamamo NP is deployed, the next turn CD is reduced by 2 - 1 from NP and 1 from turn cycle.

 

Fun facts: Jeanne's star per turn actually IS underpowered, its a leftovers from early days when Innocent Monster is a 5 CD SPT with def debuff, so Rev with 6 CD plain looks good, looks being the keyword here since before long DW realized its a stupid idea, and 5 turn star per turn become the standard

Mind, I specifically said an AoE 100% stun would be a Tamamo NP, and Jeanne's is single target & not 100%. I'm referring to a stun that always succeeds here, not what the game calls 100%.

An AoE stun does most of what Tamamo's NP would do at the cost of inflating turn count. Basically, turn 5 after using a Tamamo NP would be equivalent to turn 6 after using an AoE stun, and the effect on CDs would be identical in that case. To fully make that comparison you'd have to ignore Tamamo's healing and the extra NP tick (assuming the enemies didn't already have their NPs charged), but you'd also ignore the 4 cards worth of damage from using a skill that buys you another turn rather than an NP card, so I feel like it's a pretty fair comparison.

 

 

Regarding Revelation:

Personally I'm fine with 6cd star gen, mostly because quite a few damage buffs are on 6cd cycles rather than 5cd cycles. If the numbers are higher the 6cd stuff tend to be better than the 5cd stuff since the best damage output comes from stacking all your buffs during your turns with your highest damaging cards anyway, even at the cost of effectively turning 5cd stuff into 6cd stuff.

If all your cards did the same damage then the difference is basically a rounding error, though---if you had a 5cd 50% Atk Up and a 6cd 50% Buster Up and all you ever clicked was non-NP Busters the synch your CD strategy does... 0.015% more damage, or something like that.

 

If Revelation had better star gen numbers then its biggest downside would come from the second use of it. A 5cd would be up right in time for a 6 Turn cycle, but 6cd wouldn't be, since you get your stars the turn after you use the skill, so you either have to hold all your other stuff for an extra turn, use something like Rider Alter's Coaching, not use Revelation for a full buff cycle, or just live with the fact that your revelation is basically only up for 2 out of 6 turns.

Edited by DehNutCase

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51 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Mind, I specifically said an AoE 100% stun would be a Tamamo NP, and Jeanne's is single target & not 100%. I'm referring to a stun that always succeeds here, not what the game calls 100%.

An AoE stun does most of what Tamamo's NP would do at the cost of inflating turn count. Basically, turn 5 after using a Tamamo NP would be equivalent to turn 6 after using an AoE stun, and the effect on CDs would be identical in that case. To fully make that comparison you'd have to ignore Tamamo's healing and the extra NP tick (assuming the enemies didn't already have their NPs charged), but you'd also ignore the 4 cards worth of damage from using a skill that buys you another turn rather than an NP card, so I feel like it's a pretty fair comparison.

 

 

Regarding Revelation:

Personally I'm fine with 6cd star gen, mostly because quite a few damage buffs are on 6cd cycles rather than 5cd cycles. If the numbers are higher the 6cd stuff tend to be better than the 5cd stuff since the best damage output comes from stacking all your buffs during your turns with your highest damaging cards anyway, even at the cost of effectively turning 5cd stuff into 6cd stuff.

If all your cards did the same damage then the difference is basically a rounding error, though---if you had a 5cd 50% Atk Up and a 6cd 50% Buster Up and all you ever clicked was non-NP Busters the synch your CD strategy does... 0.015% more damage, or something like that.

 

If Revelation had better star gen numbers then its biggest downside would come from the second use of it. A 5cd would be up right in time for a 6 Turn cycle, but 6cd wouldn't be, since you get your stars the turn after you use the skill, so you either have to hold all your other stuff for an extra turn, use something like Rider Alter's Coaching, not use Revelation for a full buff cycle, or just live with the fact that your revelation is basically only up for 2 out of 6 turns.

 

Again, the only thing i have issue with with your "stun = Tamamo NP" stuff is because Tamamo NP reduce CD by 2 instead of 1 hence its only "half a Tamamo NP". Conceptually i agree with the idea and have personally said it in the past. Its just that, theres various reason why Atlas is CDR2 - its made to emulate TAmamo which is also 2 due to turn Cycle AND her own CDR

 

Also Revelation being 5 CD is actually relevant if the point your making is.... what i bolded.

Its irrelevant if you assume your activation is turn 2(because Turn 2 skill with 6 CD is back up at Turn 8, whereas Rev 6 is back up Turn 7), but if the activation turn is 1, its Rev 5 that actually didn't miss timing

 

Granted yeah, i personally didn't like Rama's Warrior Blessing much because of this

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9 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

 

Again, the only thing i have issue with with your "stun = Tamamo NP" stuff is because Tamamo NP reduce CD by 2 instead of 1 hence its only "half a Tamamo NP". Conceptually i agree with the idea and have personally said it in the past. Its just that, theres various reason why Atlas is CDR2 - its made to emulate TAmamo which is also 2 due to turn Cycle AND her own CDR

Tamamo's NP doesn't buy you a turn, is the thing, so the CD reduction is one. Like, pretend we had an AoE version of Coaching:

We press the AoE Coaching Skill, all skills cd are reduced by one. We pass the turn, all skills cd are reduced by one again, so the turn after using the AoE Coaching we have -2 CD to everything. This doesn't mean the AoE Coaching skill is somehow -2 CD to all skills, it's -1 CD, but the turn after using it everything -2 CD just like if you used a Tamamo NP in place of the AoE Coaching Skill.

The main issue with your comparison with the Atlas Code is that you didn't pass the turn after using it. Like, give the -CD a time delay---so that it'll only trigger after you do your attacks---you wouldn't call it a -3 CD skill just because the skill you used it on went down 3 cd by the time the -CD takes effect.

 

 

For example, let's see how often we can use a skill given that we can only survive, say, 6 turns worth of hits and that Tamamo's Healing can be ignored. (If Tamamo's healing buys a turn then yes, it's actually worth -2 CD, but in that case so would Medea Lily's NP, or 8 turns of Elizabeth's Bond CE healing. Jeanne's NP would also be worth 2 turns in such a case, since it heals for 2k over 2 turns and blanks 1 turn of damage.)

 

I'll use one -1 CD AoE skill a turn (a self affecting 2 CD or a non-self affecting 1 CD---alternatively, three 6cd self affecting AoE Coaching skills), a stun every other turn (a 2 cd Stun---alternatively, three 6cd stuns), or one Tamamo NP a turn (1 CD self affecting or 2cd non self-affecting, although it's not a skill---we can pretend it charges Gauge by 50% and we had 2 Tamamo's, though, or it charges 100% and we have 1), and compare how they'd affect a 5 CD skill.

 

1 -1 CD AoE, number in brackets is the cooldown of the 5cd skill:

Turn 1: [4], 1 use. (We use the 5 cd, then click our AoE CD skill)

Turn 2: [2], 1 use.

Turn 3: [5], 2 uses (We click our AoE to go to 0, then use the skill.)

Turn 4: [3], 2 uses

Turn 5: [1], 2 uses

Turn 6: [4], 3 uses (We use the 5 cd, then click our CD skill.)

So we get 3 uses with -1 CD skill a turn if we die in 6 turns of hits, since we take our 6th hit turn 7 and die.

 

1 turn Guaranteed AoE Stun, 2 CD:

Turn 1: [5], 1 use, 0 hits taken. We use our Stun.

Turn 2: [4], 1 use, 0 hits taken.

Turn 3: [3], 1 use, 1 hit taken. We use our Stun.

Turn 4: [2], 1 use, 1 hit taken.

Turn 5: [1], 1 use, 2 hits taken. We use our Stun.

Turn 6: [5], 2 uses, 2 hits taken.

Turn 7: [4], 2 uses, 3 hits taken. We use our Stun.

Turn 8: [3], 2 uses, 3 hits taken.

Turn 9: [2], 2 uses, 4 hits taken. We use our Stun.

Turn 10: [1], 2 uses, 4 hits taken.

Turn 11: [5], 3 uses, 5 hits taken. We use our Stun.

Turn 12: [4], 3 uses, 5 hits taken.

As you can see, using a stun every other turn gives us just as many uses of a 5CD skill as using a -1 CD skill every single turn, at the cost of inflating turn-count like crazy.

However, balanced by cooldowns it's identical to an AoE -CD skill in terms of amount of skills used. (Since a self affecting 2CD AoE Coaching is identical to a 2CD Stun.)

 

1 Tamamo NP every turn:

Turn 1: [5], 1 use

Turn 2: [3], 1 use

Turn 3: [1], 1 use

Turn 4: [5], 2 uses

Turn 5: [3], 2 uses

Turn 6: [1], 2 uses

Let's round up and say this is 3 uses.* As you can see, Tamamo's CD reduction is comparable to a -1 CD skill or single turn stun with the same effective CD. (The fact that we only got 2 uses of the 5cd skill is because Tamamo's NP is time delayed, but if we use a lot of turns the inefficiency doesn't affect things as much.)

*Tamamo's NP occasionally runs into situations like this, where you're forced to use it when the skill is at 1 cd already, but it doesn't pop up nearly as often as in this example---in retrospect, I should've used a 4 or 6cd skill.

 

For clarity, here's the effect if we had a -2 CD skill every turn:

Turn 1: [3], 1 use

Turn 2: [5], 2 uses

Turn 3: [2], 2 uses

Turn 4: [5], 3 uses

Turn 5: [2], 3 uses

Turn 6: [5], 4 uses

You'd get 4 uses rather than 2 or 3 if you had a -2 CD skill, albeit just barely. (To be fair though, it's running into the same situation as Tamamo's NP, in that for a 5cd skill you'll end up using it when the skill has 1 cd a lot.)

 

 

6 turns might be a bit too short and require numbers that aren't 'real,' so we can also see the effects of 20 turns of 1 6 CD AoE Coaching skill, 1 6 CD 1 turn Stun, and 1 Tamamo NP every 6 turns. (Again, we're discounting the healing.)

The skill we're using is still 5cd.

 

6cd (self affecting) Coaching:
Turn 1: [4], 1 use, coaching skill has 5 turns of CD. (We're assuming it affects itself so that the comparison with a stun skill is similar.)

Turn 2: [3], 1 use, 4cd on Coaching.

Turn 3: [2], 1 use, 3 cd on Coaching.

Turn 4: [1], 1 use, 2 cd on Coaching.

Turn 5: [5], 2 uses, 1 cd on Coaching.

Turn 6: [3], 2 uses, 5 cd on Coaching.

Turn 7: [2], 2 uses, 4 cd on Coaching.

Turn 8: [1], 2 uses, 3 cd on Coaching.

Turn 9: [5], 3 uses, 2 cd on Coaching.

Turn 10: [4], 3 uses, 1 cd on Coaching.

Turn 11: [2], 3 uses, 5 cd on Coaching.

Turn 12: [1], 3 uses, 4 cd on Coaching.

Turn 13: [5], 4 uses, 3 cd on Coaching.

Turn 14: [4], 4 uses, 2 cd on Coaching.

Turn 15: [3], 4 uses, 1 cd on Coaching.

Turn 16: [1], 4 uses, 5 cd on Coaching.

Turn 17: [5], 5 uses, 4 cd on Coaching.

Turn 18: [4], 5 uses, 3 cd on Coaching.

Turn 19: [3], 5 uses, 2 cd on Coaching.

Turn 20: [2], 5 uses, 1 cd on Coaching.

We die on the 20th hit, so we get 5 uses of our 5 cd skill in 20 turns, with 2 cd until its next use.

 

6 CD Stun:

Turn 1: [5], 1 use, 6 cd on Stun, 0 hits. (We use our Stun.)

Turn 2: [4], 1 use, 5 cd on Stun, 0 hits.

Turn 3: [3], 1 use, 4 cd on Stun, 1 hit.

Turn 4: [2], 1 use, 3 cd on Stun, 2 hits.

Turn 5: [1], 1 use, 2 cd on Stun, 3 hits.

Turn 6: [5], 2 uses, 1 cd on Stun, 4 hits.

Turn 7: [4], 2 uses, 6 cd on Stun, 5 hits. (We use our Stun.)

Turn 8: [3], 2 uses, 5 cd on Stun, 5 hits.

Turn 9: [2], 2 uses, 4 cd on Stun, 6 hits.

Turn 10: [1], 2 uses, 3 cd on Stun, 7 hits.

Turn 11: [5], 3 uses, 2 cd on Stun, 8 hits.

Turn 12: [4], 3 uses, 1 cd on Stun, 9 hits.

Turn 13: [3], 3 uses, 6 cd on Stun, 10 hits. (We use our Stun.)

Turn 14: [2], 3 uses, 5 cd on Stun, 10 hits.

Turn 15: [1], 3 uses, 4cd on Stun, 11 hits.

Turn 16: [5], 4 uses, 3 cd on Stun, 12 hits.

Turn 17: [4], 4 uses, 2 cd on Stun, 13 hits.

Turn 18: [3], 4 uses, 1 cd on Stun, 14 hits.

Turn 19: [2], 4 uses, 6 cd on Stun, 15 hits. (We use our Stun.)

Turn 20: [1], 4 uses, 5 cd on Stun, 15 hits.

Turn 21: [5], 5 uses, 4 cd on Stun, 16 hits.

Turn 22: [4], 5 uses, 3 cd on Stun, 17 hits.

Turn 23: [3], 5 uses, 2 cd on Stun, 18 hits.

Turn 24: [2], 5 uses, 1 cd on Stun, 19 hits.

We die next turn, so we had 5 uses of our 5 cd skill with 2 cd left until its next use, and 1 cd left until our stun. The exact same situation as the -1 CD skill if all we care about is skill usage. Just like before, our turn count is a bit inflated.

 

Tamamo NP every 5 turns (alternatively, 6 self-affecting CD):

Turn 1: [5], 1 use, 5 cd on NP. We used our NP.

Turn 2: [3], 1 use, 4 cd on NP.

Turn 3: [2], 1 use, 3 cd on NP.

Turn 4: [1], 1 use, 2 cd on NP.

Turn 5: [5], 2 uses, 1 cd on NP.

Turn 6: [4], 2 uses, 5 cd on NP. We used our NP.

Turn 7: [2], 2 uses, 4cd on NP.

Turn 8: [1], 2 uses, 3cd on NP.

Turn 9: [5], 3 uses, 2cd on NP.

Turn 10: [4], 3 uses, 1 cd on NP.

Turn 11: [3], 3 uses, 5 cd on NP. We used our NP.

Turn 12: [1], 3 uses, 4 cd on NP.

Turn 13: [5], 4 uses, 3 cd on NP.

Turn 14: [4], 4 uses, 2cd on NP.

Turn 15: [3], 4 uses, 1 cd on NP.

Turn 16: [2], 4 uses, 5 cd on NP. We used our NP.

Turn 17: [5], 5 uses, 4cd on NP.

Turn 18: [4], 5 uses, 3cd on NP.

Turn 19: [3], 5 uses, 2cd on NP.

Turn 20: [2], 5 uses, 1 cd on NP.

5 uses, 2 cd on skill, 1 cd on NP, exact same situation as our Stun and AoE Coaching skills if we die in 20 hits. (Fortunately we never ran into the situation where we had Tamamo's NP up at the same time our skill only had 1 cd left, so we didn't have to hold our NP for a turn so as to not waste it.)

2 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Also Revelation being 5 CD is actually relevant if the point your making is.... what i bolded.

Its irrelevant if you assume your activation is turn 2(because Turn 2 skill with 6 CD is back up at Turn 8, whereas Rev 6 is back up Turn 7), but if the activation turn is 1, its Rev 5 that actually didn't miss timing

 

Granted yeah, i personally didn't like Rama's Warrior Blessing much because of this

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant---you need to be 5cd to be up in time for the 2nd buff cycle if all your stuff is 6cd. But it's a one off thing, once Revelation is in synch with everything else you don't need to fix it again, since every buff cycle after that it'll be up a turn before all the other 6cd stuff.

It's still a downside, mind, but I'd much rather they gave it more stars than 1 less cd, since if you only have time to use Revelation once the cd doesn't matter, and if you have time to use it a lot then 'wasting' the skill once to fix synchronization isn't much of a loss.

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Perhaps I shouldn’t have said that her kit is bad, but it’s still not very impressive. My point was that you can use Jeanne effectively without having to worry about leveling her skills, since what she’s really needs it’s just her NP. Not saying her you don’t have to level the skills eventually, but her performance will remain most unchanged regardless of skill levels, so you can prioritize using resources on other Servants instead of her. The only thing she really needs is the NP buff from her second interlude.

Edited by Water Mage

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Ah, don't mind me when I'm posting giant walls of text, I'm pretty much just doing them for fun. FGO is nowhere near hard enough that you actually have to optimize. And, personally, that's how I think mobile games should be---some challenge quests once in a while is fine, but they should be optional. How they did it for Kiara was more or less ideal, people who wanted a challenge could do it whipless or whip only, but people who didn't care could just grind until she's trivial.

 

Regarding investing, though, I'm definitely the type that would go for the 1% improvement on my best unit rather than the 100% improvement versus an average or even good unit, assuming the 101% best unit is still better than the 200% average/good unit. It helps that FGO doesn't punish you for focusing on 1 or 2 key units at the very start---the cost system even encourages it since you can barely manage to fit 2 5*s into your team, much less 2 5*s with 5* CEs.

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If it were up to me, I'll improve Revelation A by having it include a 10% np gain for 3 turns. She needs another way of benefiting a team other than generating stars or her np for faster battles. Improving True Name Discernment with an inclusion of a 80% chance to debuff a servant's attack, defense, and Crit Chance by 30% for a turn. Knowing the true name in Fate lore is supposed to be a massive advantage it needs to be reflected more. Finally, Divine Judgement just needs to have an np seal or something similar just in case that stun fails.

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1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

 

 

Regarding investing, though, I'm definitely the type that would go for the 1% improvement on my best unit rather than the 100% improvement versus an average or even good unit, assuming the 101% best unit is still better than the 200% average/good unit. It helps that FGO doesn't punish you for focusing on 1 or 2 key units at the very start---the cost system even encourages it since you can barely manage to fit 2 5*s into your team, much less 2 5*s with 5* CEs.

Honestly that’s what I like about FGO. It’s gacha rates may be cruel, but it’s very F2P friendly. Even 3*, 2* and 1* are useful, power creep happens rarely and launch units are still useful. Heracles and Okita are good examples of that. Granted Okita isn’t launch unit, but she’s still early enough, and neither her or Heracles had upgrade yet they’re still useful.

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RIP the hopes of a Guda4 part 2 banner.

Also Babylonia spoiler Evil Ushi in an event requiring Fuyuki was... weird.  

Now to hope this isn't really the end and we get Nobukatsu next year...!  And Mitsuhide and Maxwell's Demon!   And Katsuie I guess...

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1 hour ago, Water Mage said:

Honestly that’s what I like about FGO. It’s gacha rates may be cruel, but it’s very F2P friendly. Even 3*, 2* and 1* are useful, power creep happens rarely and launch units are still useful. Heracles and Okita are good examples of that. Granted Okita isn’t launch unit, but she’s still early enough, and neither her or Heracles had upgrade yet they’re still useful.

Okita is actually FGO's shining example of Power creep when it comes to "unit power" but DW kinda react to her by simply never making anything like her again. I would like to note that theres more to power creep that "unit X being slightly better than unit Y, now Y is useless!" that people seems to like to say for FEH.

Actual power creep in FEH is abyssal maps that makes you need a certain power level lest the units didnt fare too well in my opinion, but shit like say.... Ayra isn't power creep to me so much as a finally good unit to a complete fucking shit pool that objectively have no reason to exist at all

 

In FGO case, harder contents that makes older units less effective is one, it actually happened to Vlad where its often said that Vlad 'got nerfed when he got his buff" because content around him simply become harder. But when it comes to unit quality, FGO is kinda unique in that unit power tend to be rather controlled? part of it is because we barely get a new release but so far in 2019, the only strong release outside Monarch series are basically Kama

 

I dare say 2017 have the strongest release in the history of FGO until Ivan brings the Monarch series, with 2 servant released that year being kinda broken on paper, but thats because of my (somewhat) distatste of the sheer bullshit that is Parvati. Its pretty great that she's now one of the servant you can start the game with in JP, but yeah. She's stupid even by the standard of Monarch series

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Interesting convo you guys had! Learned something again 😄

Back to summer 1 on NA, God I have so many MEAT WARS CE hahaha

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Oh man the hermit crab challenge quest caught me by surprise. I went in with Black Grail Artoria since it was all Sabers, but that 100% damage reduction crab at the end is going to mean that I have to kill it with Waver Atk Up (from the 500 dmg per card), Waver's NP Curse damage, and Nero's NP Burn damage.

Not sure if I can actually chip off 50k with my team, tbh, but I'm too lazy to just quit and grab some of my per card damage CEs and give Waver Prisma Cosmos.

Edit: Done. Good thing I grabbed 2 Wavers for the team since Artoria wasn't using an NP Gauge CE, LUL. Helped that the incoming damage was pretty low.

Edited by DehNutCase

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I'm bored and avoiding social media because of TH spoilers. Which servants do you want to get strengthenings and what would you come up with?

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27 minutes ago, redlight said:

I'm bored and avoiding social media because of TH spoilers. Which servants do you want to get strengthenings and what would you come up with?

I know he just got an Interlude, but Arthur could use an NP buff.

Gawain could get a buff to his NP that makes the battlefield “Sunny”, which he could use his skills with more ease. Arjuna really needs a buff, though I’m not sure what to give him. Marie could get a buff to her healing skill or charm skill to make her even tankier.

Edited by Water Mage

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59 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

I know he just got an Interlude, but Arthur could use an NP buff.

Gawain could get a buff to his NP that makes the battlefield “Sunny”, which he could use his skills with more ease. Arjuna really needs a buff, though I’m not sure what to give him. Marie could a buff to her healing skill or charm skill to make her even tankier.

That could work for Gawain. I think he’d be a mid tier farmer at the very least should that happen.

Arjuna is kinda in a weird spot, because he already got buffed twice (with his NP and later his Clairvoyance which... wasn’t really that helpful). All I can see is his second skill maybe having a shorter cooldown, maybe 8-6 instead of 12-10, as well as having a more substantial battery. I doubt his Mana Burst needs to change as while simple it gets the job done.

Sadly at this point he may as well be doomed to be passable at best and mediocre at worst, since especially his NP is centered around instakilling (insert laugh track) and denting divine enemies, which while far from useless isn’t ideal for him because divine enemies tend to be servants and/or bosses so his NP being AoE hursts him. It’s a real shame considering I personally like him.

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42 minutes ago, Silverly said:

That could work for Gawain. I think he’d be a mid tier farmer at the very least should that happen.

Arjuna is kinda in a weird spot, because he already got buffed twice (with his NP and later his Clairvoyance which... wasn’t really that helpful). All I can see is his second skill maybe having a shorter cooldown, maybe 8-6 instead of 12-10, as well as having a more substantial battery. I doubt his Mana Burst needs to change as while simple it gets the job done.

Sadly at this point he may as well be doomed to be passable at best and mediocre at worst, since especially his NP is centered around instakilling (insert laugh track) and denting divine enemies, which while far from useless isn’t ideal for him because divine enemies tend to be servants and/or bosses so his NP being AoE hursts him. It’s a real shame considering I personally like him.

Arjuna’s situation is quite ironic considering his Alter version is arguably the best AoE Berserker in JP now.

Back on the subject of units needing a buff, maybe the could do something with Caesar. If his Tactics skills receives a buff, he can be an excellent support unit.

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1 hour ago, Silverly said:

That could work for Gawain. I think he’d be a mid tier farmer at the very least should that happen.

Arjuna is kinda in a weird spot, because he already got buffed twice (with his NP and later his Clairvoyance which... wasn’t really that helpful). All I can see is his second skill maybe having a shorter cooldown, maybe 8-6 instead of 12-10, as well as having a more substantial battery. I doubt his Mana Burst needs to change as while simple it gets the job done.

Sadly at this point he may as well be doomed to be passable at best and mediocre at worst, since especially his NP is centered around instakilling (insert laugh track) and denting divine enemies, which while far from useless isn’t ideal for him because divine enemies tend to be servants and/or bosses so his NP being AoE hursts him. It’s a real shame considering I personally like him.

Arjuna's NP is actually one of the luckier of the bunch because its not just an insta kill - its also a 20% def debuff, so by all means its actually a "fine NP"

Really his problem is mostly generally weak skillset, since he's stuck with glorified mediocre battery and Clairvoyance one of the very worst skill in the entire game had anything related to debuff and aesthetic appreciation doesnt exists. The other is being AOE is kind of hard in general since AOE kinda sucked despite AOE meta that you need hyper stacked damage capability, or ridiculous loops to get by. When something as broken as Parvati manage to go under the radar because she's an AOE, something is wrong

 

24 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

Arjuna’s situation is quite ironic considering his Alter version is arguably the best AoE Berserker in JP now.

Back on the subject of units needing a buff, maybe the could do something with Caesar. If his Tactics skills receives a buff, he can be an excellent support unit.

Thats understating it lol. He's probably able to make a case as the best Zerker overall, since BB locking a buster chain with him allows Arjuna to do massive ST damage even without NP, and his Np damage is so ridiculous he's basically Black Grail Tier while using Kscope and Golden Sumo. If MHXA isn't kind of ridiculous, and his reliance on debuff isnt as big as it is, Juna would be the best outright.

 

An interesting part is also Juna is a good "trash eater" since his pseudo optimal build is to give him Status Ailments CC.... yeah if you've seen Arjuna Alter with inflict poison when attacking.... its not a meme.

 

Caesar definitely didn't need a buff at this point besides maybe Interlude to give an alternative choice for Saber DPS besides Bedivere(although its honestly arguably ATM if Bedivere is even better than Caesar). He's already an excellent support unit. The reason people didn't use him is because Hans is even more broken, he's considered ugly, and he's outclassed in what he do by CasterGil, Lanlin Wang, and Chiron. None of which is fixable because Caesar is Quick and Quick is shit.

Its a day 1 issue with FGO where Arts is ridiculously broken that the entire game revolves around being Arts, replicating Arts, or outscaling the content so hard you don't need to be Arts.

 

The only thing off about Caesar right now is Inc EX having def debuff, but it was a creation during the time when he was borderline overpowered

Tactics was originally created as an NP damage cap tool really(in that its there to make Caesar do 46k with his NP). Its an intent that doesn't work in the long run but understandable for day 1

 

 

As for my pick buff Saberlot, buff Arjuna Alter Rama

 

Its amazing how DW manage to create the ONE Saber who want instinct more than anyone else in the world and give him Charisma and Guts. He's really flawed and basic which is a shame since he kicks ass in lore and now had amazing animation

In particular, his lack of steroid means his natural and cap np damage is meh. As seen on Qin Shin Huang, critical damage can only carry you so far

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

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How long does it take to get through the Bunyan event? I haven't touched FGO in a while as I've been preoccupied elsewhere, but I want to experience the new storylines before they expire.

As for the summer rerun, I may end up skipping it at the rate I'm going at...

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52 minutes ago, Sire said:

How long does it take to get through the Bunyan event? I haven't touched FGO in a while as I've been preoccupied elsewhere, but I want to experience the new storylines before they expire.

As for the summer rerun, I may end up skipping it at the rate I'm going at...

You can through it really really fast. It’s just a bunch of small fights.

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6 hours ago, redlight said:

I'm bored and avoiding social media because of TH spoilers. Which servants do you want to get strengthenings and what would you come up with?

Iskandar: NP battery and crit buff on Tactics + increase the numbers a bit.  He needs other stuff (something defensive...) to be truly good but part of me just wants to go all in on ATTACK MODE which his current kit is.  NP battery and a crit buff are all he's really missing on that front.  Maybe tack the Crit buff to Charisma instead.

Lancer Diarmuid: Oh god where to begin.  Fix skill 3 because it's a disaster.  A quick buff at minimum, but in happy ideal world, give him something like Musashi's first skill.  His biggest issue right now is he's a quick servant whose hitcounts suck, he could really use it, and he conveniently dual wields which is what the skill is meant to represent.  Besides that... Love spot.  Make it do something else, a Defense debuff so he can use it as a steroid maybe.  A NP damage down to turn it into a mini Nightingale NP vs females.  Idk.  Something.

Alexander: up Fair Youth success rate at level 10 to 100% and throw something else on it.  I dunno what.  Star bomb because his cuteness makes him sparkle?

Astolfo: Quick buff on Monsterous strength so that it's less underwhelming, though honestly like Diarmuid what he really needs is improved hitcounts.  Unlike Diarmuid, I can't think of a justification for a Musashi's first skill status.  Maybe give him like a stupidly huge stargen/np gen buff such that he's getting way more out of the few hits he does get.  It'd be kinda whack to do that though

Jeanne: Please make True Name Discernment not bad.  Knowing a true name is a much bigger advantage than a tiny NP strength down.  

Amakusa: Buff Revelation with, uh, something.  Crit up maybe?  idk.  I like this guy and have him on both my accounts.  

Iri: Any of the following: targetted or teamwide debuff clear/immune, np gain up for herself, or teamwide def buff.  Shiki has officially opened the floodgates of welfares being buffed.  Let's give it to welfares that like, legitimately need it.  This poor girl's been like, totally outclassed by snakeboi.  It's fine to keep her defensive, but she could use more than just the heals.

Kiritsugu: Part of me wants to say "buff magecraft to give him class advantage vs Casters."  This is nice and lore accurate but... it doesn't actually address any of his actual problems.  So I'd use his time magic to justify giving him a variant of Musashi's first skill that only works for Art cards.  Double (maybe triple I don't feel like doing the math to figure out which would be more balanced) arts hitcount for 3 turns.  Not broken because his base NP gain is trash and it doesn't make his Busters/quicks completely insane.  Just makes his arts not garbage.

 

TLDR: I love Musashi's first skill.

Edited by Glaceon Mage

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I am still waiting for they to patch Scathach 1st skill to 100% proc rate instead of 80%... I HATE 80% proc rate skills ><

I would also tweak ALL the field skills somehow. or create ways to change terrain via Mystic code or maybe other units. How often can you field Summer Martha or JaguarMan? forests are such a rare bioma it is not even fun 

Hektor and Anne Mary (rider) should get some tweaks aswell. They both aged so badly

Give Geronimo a 1st and 3rd skill. Right now, he has 1 usable skill + a usable NP

Fix Kojiro`s 2nd skill. The removal of mental debuffs is completely useless.

Seems like a start I would say

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