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blah the Prussian

A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones thread: A Clash of Threads

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So given that a thread was made last year for Season 6, might as well make a new thread for season 7. I like both the books and the show(despite some questionable creative decisions on the part of the latter) and would gladly discuss any part of them. Also, if Jaime kills Cersei you heard it here first.

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Since the last thread, I've bought books 1 through 3, but I've only really gotten through the first chapter following Bran. I know that most of those dire pups will probably die painfully, given that the books are only barely more forgiving than the show.

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I really enjoyed season 6 and thought it a significant step up from the preceding seasons. I'm looking forward to what they do for season 7!

 

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6 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Since the last thread, I've bought books 1 through 3, but I've only really gotten through the first chapter following Bran. I know that most of those dire pups will probably die painfully, given that the books are only barely more forgiving than the show.

I would definitely recommend reading the books as well, there are plenty of differences especially starting with AFFC that means that the show didn't spoil it.

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I didn't hear it here first actually. I know the theory of Jammie potentially becoming the Promised Prince, which I have mixed feelings about. Even if he is not the Promised Prince, I still hope he kills Circe.

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Currently reading the 3rd book, the first chapters aren't very fun so far. I tried checking the show out (YouTubed some parts I'd read about to picture them better in my head; didn't help) and didn't like how they went about it. I imagine I'd need to watch the show as a whole to make any real judgment on it though, but there are obvious limitations, like not being able to find a male and female actor with the same appearance (Jaime and Cersei). 

I hear the next two books aren't worth it, so I'll have to think if I want to read 2200 pages of mediocre fiction when I'm done with this one, which is said to be good. But maybe it's all right, the chapter ratings I saw online are kinda bogus anyway (people upvoting characters they like and downvoting the ones they hate, mostly all the Caitlyn and Sansa stuff, though the really good chapters do have the best scores). 

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7 hours ago, Espinosa said:

Currently reading the 3rd book, the first chapters aren't very fun so far. I tried checking the show out (YouTubed some parts I'd read about to picture them better in my head; didn't help) and didn't like how they went about it. I imagine I'd need to watch the show as a whole to make any real judgment on it though, but there are obvious limitations, like not being able to find a male and female actor with the same appearance (Jaime and Cersei). 

I hear the next two books aren't worth it, so I'll have to think if I want to read 2200 pages of mediocre fiction when I'm done with this one, which is said to be good. But maybe it's all right, the chapter ratings I saw online are kinda bogus anyway (people upvoting characters they like and downvoting the ones they hate, mostly all the Caitlyn and Sansa stuff, though the really good chapters do have the best scores). 

The fourth book has some bad stuff(you can skim all Brienne's chapters except for the ones dealing with the Faith Militant) but it also introduces my favorite villain in the series and one of my favorites of all time, Euron Greyjoy. The fifth book, however, is quite good. I would recommend, however, alternating their chapters.

8 hours ago, Altina said:

I didn't hear it here first actually. I know the theory of Jammie potentially becoming the Promised Prince, which I have mixed feelings about. Even if he is not the Promised Prince, I still hope he kills Circe.

I want him as Azor Ahai, definitely, but that's just because I really like him. Trust me, if you want to jump into the wonderful world of ASOIAF theories, well, I have several significantly obscure than this one.

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I'm always surprised to see just how much happens every season.  I mean, it's literally ten episodes every season but it feels like every season is its own franchise.  One of my favorite episodes was the last one just because that extra time they had made it feel so much bigger.  Really looking forward to the increase in the length of the episodes.

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I absolutely cannot wait for season 7! Slowly reading through AFFC which is imo far better than what the show has done up to now. Not gonna pick a side of which is better since I love both separately. Except the show's version of dorne. That was horrible.

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22 hours ago, Lushen said:

I happened upon this article/blog and I felt the exact same way.  Warning spoilers for the previous season (even in the url)

Anyone else think said character was the best?

Her role in the show was certainly expanded relative to the books by Dormer. I don't really know how I feel about her TV portrayal, as she felt both more flawless and less nuanced than in the books. On the one hand, she gives out food to the people of King's Landing, but on the other hand, her family earlier denies the city food, resulting in a famine, and she's absolutely fine with putting an objective usurper on the throne(trust me, don't get me started on the disastrousness of Renly Baratheon on the Iron Throne) and then turns around and is the main lynchpin in supporting Joffrey. Basically, she pays lip service to the idea of helping the small folk, but supports people who will cause them harm in the long run(Renly through setting a precedent that will result in more civil war, Joffrey through being Joffrey) showing that she doesn't really care about them. I'm rusty on the show, but IIRC this element to her and House Tyrell as a whole was downplayed or outright written out(they even changed Joffrey's wedding feast so that the Tyrells give the leftovers to the poor which they don't in the books) which I don't like that much. 

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I enjoyed the season premier; I feel as if they are continuing the strengths of last season (IMO the best season) and it's good to see the more even-handed treatment of the male and female characters continue.

Arya's scene was fabulous and a great way to open the episode.

The editing in Sam's scene was great and really drove home the drudgery.

It was good to see Jon behave as a true leader, even if it was at Sansa's expense. 

On 6/27/2017 at 2:50 AM, blah the Prussian said:

Also, if Jaime kills Cersei you heard it here first.

 What do you think of the theory that Arya might kill Jaime, don his face and kill Cersei, thus fulfilling two prophecies/promises? 

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6 hours ago, Res said:

What do you think of the theory that Arya might kill Jaime, don his face and kill Cersei, thus fulfilling two prophecies/promises? 

Well, but it wouldn't really be fulfilling the Valonquar prophesy. Cersei would be killed by either Arya Stark or No One, not Jaime, or any other Little Brother. I also actually just realized that the Little Brother was never specified to be Cersei's; still, I want it to be Jaime because it would make for the best conclusion to his story. Arya at this point hardly has any real connection to Cersei; they haven't been in the same room since Season 1/AGOT. Plus I think that the best conclusion to Arya's arc is for her to STOP being a child assasin; killing the Freys was already like something out of Titus Andronicus, and when Titus Andronicus does it it's not like it's a "fuck yeah" moment like it is in the show. Now, I think that in the books it will probably be Lady Stoneheart who kills Walder, and Wyman Manderly already made Frey Pie, but theyre much less"we should be on their side" people than Arya; both kill Frey children.

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I agree that I'd rather it was Jaime than any other little brother.

I'm not really sure what I want from Arya; it's fun watching her enact revenge, but I'm far more curious about/invested in Sansa and Jon and the others. 

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Personally I'm very exited and a little bit worried for what the story will do with Varys. His role in the later seasons really didn't sit well with me. Without going into spoilers my main issue is that his grand moment was pretty much stolen by other characters. That and his implied masterminding from the books getting replaced by him joining Tyrions gang seem to imply he's just a dangerous ''good'' guy rather then the more creepy mastermind that fights for the greater good the book depicted him as. 

It makes Varys seem as a less impressive schemer and not as interesting as he should be. I hope they get into some more detail in just how far he's willing to go and maybe send some implications our way that he really did had a hand in his grand moment. 

In a similar way I hope either he or someone else gives Ellaria a good scolding for downgrading a character in a way similar but even worse way than Varys. I'm hoping that characters book persona is somewhat true after all and that Ellaria gets told that she screwed up a lot by removing him.

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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On 14-7-2017 at 10:45 PM, blah the Prussian said:

Her role in the show was certainly expanded relative to the books by Dormer. I don't really know how I feel about her TV portrayal, as she felt both more flawless and less nuanced than in the books. On the one hand, she gives out food to the people of King's Landing, but on the other hand, her family earlier denies the city food, resulting in a famine, and she's absolutely fine with putting an objective usurper on the throne(trust me, don't get me started on the disastrousness of Renly Baratheon on the Iron Throne) and then turns around and is the main lynchpin in supporting Joffrey. Basically, she pays lip service to the idea of helping the small folk, but supports people who will cause them harm in the long run(Renly through setting a precedent that will result in more civil war, Joffrey through being Joffrey) showing that she doesn't really care about them. I'm rusty on the show, but IIRC this element to her and House Tyrell as a whole was downplayed or outright written out(they even changed Joffrey's wedding feast so that the Tyrells give the leftovers to the poor which they don't in the books) which I don't like that much. 

The Tyrels do come off as less flawed and overall better people. Olena is pretty benevolent and Mace is just weak and jolly rather than unpleasantly arrogant. But I do think there's a darker tint to Margaery. She's the most healthy relation Tommen has....but that has everything to do with the rest of Tommen's family rather then with her. I do see Margaery's relation with Tommen as unhealthy and self serving. To me it comes off as if she's manipulating a minor through his pants.  

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6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Personally I'm very exited and a little bit worried for what the story will do with Varys. His role in the later seasons really didn't sit well with me. Without going into spoilers my main issue is that his grand moment was pretty much stolen by other characters. That and his implied masterminding from the books getting replaced by him joining Tyrions gang seem to imply he's just a dangerous ''good'' guy rather then the more creepy mastermind that fights for the greater good the book depicted him as. 

It makes Varys seem as a less impressive schemer and not as interesting as he should be. I hope they get into some more detail in just how far he's willing to go and maybe send some implications our way that he really did had a hand in his grand moment. 

In a similar way I hope either he or someone else gives Ellaria a good scolding for downgrading a character in a way similar but even worse way than Varys. I'm hoping that characters book persona is somewhat true after all and that Ellaria gets told that she screwed up a lot by removing him.

I don't think it's clear that he's doing anything for the greater good in the books.

Have you heard the theory that Aegon and Varys are Blackfyres? If that was the case, Varys is only plunging the realm into more war for the sake of a naked power grab by a descendent of a traitor, based on a lie. Plus, he was a primary instigator in Rhaegar not being able to overthrow Aerys, by telling Aerys what Rhaegar was planning. That's hardly something someone who was interested in the greater good would do. Overall I think Varys is only a bit better than Littlefinger; they both cause chaos to advance their goals but at least Varys' goals aren't blatantly selfish.

[\spoiler]

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Just now, blah the Prussian said:

I don't think it's clear that he's doing anything for the greater good in the books.

 

  Hide contents

 

Have you heard the theory that Aegon and Varys are Blackfyres? If that was the case, Varys is only plunging the realm into more war for the sake of a naked power grab by a descendent of a traitor, based on a lie. Plus, he was a primary instigator in Rhaegar not being able to overthrow Aerys, by telling Aerys what Rhaegar was planning. That's hardly something someone who was interested in the greater good would do. Overall I think Varys is only a bit better than Littlefinger; they both cause chaos to advance their goals but at least Varys' goals aren't blatantly selfish.

[\spoiler]

Oh I don't think book Varys really fights for a good cause but I do think he himself believes that he does to some extend. The thing that makes Book Varys more interesting to is is that he's....well, evil despite what he says or why he does it. 

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Really, it is very hard to say who is fighting for a good cause in GoT, other than maybe the Starks, and even they are questionable sometimes (Arya's quest for vengeance is understandable, but nowhere close to being morally noble or good in any way. Sansa is also taking hints from Chancelor Palpatine from what I've heard of the seventh season).

Anyway, I only saw a bit of the show (after reading all of the books), then heard of it from friends and peers. I'm not sure if I like the creative freedom that led to some major changes and omissions in the show, like omiting the whole plot around Dorne, not adding plot relevant characters from Book 5, having characters be in roles that they were not supposed to be, some questionable character actions and choices that differ from their canon counterparts and omiting other events from the books. I need to watch it fully to give my sentence, though. It is unmistakenly good, but with some questionable decisions and faults.

I'm talking about (massive book 1-5 spoilers)

Spoiler

Doran Martel's and his daughter's plots, the Sand Snakes not acting like dumbasses and ruining any chances that Dorne had to fight the Iron Throne and support Dany, Aegon existing and posing a threat as another pretender for the Iron Throne, Mance Raider still being alive and helping free "Arya" (who is Jeyne Poole posing as Arya in the books, whose role of being Ramsay's bride is somehow taken by Sansa, who should've been plotting with Littlefinger to marry with an Arryn and take Winterfell back with their army) when he is not manhandling Jon in his sparetime, Stannis burning his daughter (which is something he probably wouldn't do in the books), Ramsay raiding Stannis' camp while shirtless and pulling a Kratos at his soldiers, Theon being an useless mop after becoming Reek (he helps "Arya" escape from Ramsay in the books, and there is a lot of drama regarding his new persona and his wish to at least die as Theon Greyjoy, which I argue is one of the best scenes of the fifth book, but in the shows he... just mops around. Understandably, but still worse than his counterpart), Varys' reveal that he supports Dany (right after he kills Kevan Lannister), Jaime becoming a docile mindless dog whenever he is close to Cersei vs how he burns her message in book 4 after finally realizing she is using him as a puppet.

 

Edited by Rapier

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Thoughts on ep2 below, I'm not going to spoiler it because it's your fault if you open this thread and read comments when you're not caught up.

 

I saw a lot of people commenting that what Theon did was ok because the odds were completely against him.  While I agree, he made the right move, I think they missed his face and how he dropped his sword.  It was not the look of an intelligent man who jumped out of the ship because it was strategic, he looked like a whimpering fool who returned to reek and jumped out of the boat.  In addition, jumping in the water was more suicidal than surrendering to Euron.  Obviously, someone will save him, but he has no way of knowing that when he jumps out of the boat and that's if he doesn't get crushed by the boats or waves from the boats.  It also would have been easy for Euron to kill Theon after he jumped in the water, the only reason he didn't is because he thought Theon was pathetic and not worth his time.

That being said, I predict he will be very ashamed with himself and end up killing Euron at some point.  I think the shame will change him for good this time.  I hope his sister survives, I love her.

 

The wolf scene was interesting.  I knew about it from the books, but I suspected something more.  I guess her Wolf will appear later, but I wanted them to reunite.  Again, I disagree with a lot of what people were saying.  I don't think the Wolf turning away mirrored Arya growing up and choosing her own path, I think it's more of the fact that Arya told her wolf to go away and while the Wolf still has some allegiance, she feels betrayed.  Why would the wolf abandon it's pack for her former master who will probably throw her away again.  It doesn't matter how intelligent the Wolf is, it has no way of knowing why Arya sent it away.

 

Curious what will happen with Sam.  He keeps snooping around where he shouldn't and disregarding what he's told.  I suspect he will be thrown out when they catch him but by that time he will have he knowledge he needs to help Jon.  But why the romance arc?  I feel like something has to happen there, they wouldn't spend so much time on his love interest and not have her serve any purpose.

Edited by Lushen

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1 hour ago, Lushen said:

I saw a lot of people commenting that what Theon did was ok because the odds were completely against him.  While I agree, he made the right move, I think they missed his face and how he dropped his sword.  It was not the look of an intelligent man who jumped out of the ship because it was strategic, he looked like a whimpering fool who returned to reek and jumped out of the boat.  In addition, jumping in the water was more suicidal than surrendering to Euron.  Obviously, someone will save him, but he has no way of knowing that when he jumps out of the boat and that's if he doesn't get crushed by the boats or waves from the boats.  It also would have been easy for Euron to kill Theon after he jumped in the water, the only reason he didn't is because he thought Theon was pathetic and not worth his time.

I thought the same. Idk why anyone would think that was brave or anything but cowardly; he gave up and tested his odds in the sea. Maybe he'll have some special moment or upbringing that shows the true Greyjoy in him, but he's still part-Reek for now.

I'm curious who will rally behind Daenyrs in Dorne now that Ellaria and Tyene are captured by Euron.

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8 hours ago, Logos said:

I thought the same. Idk why anyone would think that was brave or anything but cowardly; he gave up and tested his odds in the sea. Maybe he'll have some special moment or upbringing that shows the true Greyjoy in him, but he's still part-Reek for now.

I'm curious who will rally behind Daenyrs in Dorne now that Ellaria and Tyene are captured by Euron.

I mean it was mostly his face and the way the sword slipped out of his hands.  If he thew the sword on the ground and jumped in the water without flinching, it would be a very different story.  Also, he was looking around at all the death and was completely petrified.  

She still has the Tyrells.  I suspect she won't believe Jon but because she lost a large portion of her army, she won't have a choice but to ally herself with Jon.  The question is, does he have to bend the knee?  Will the North be allowed to succeed from the Seven Kingdoms?  I don't think the North will rally behind Jon if he gives up the North's freedom.

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Fear is sometimes wisdom in and of itself. Euron had already stormed the entire ship, killed two Sand Snakes at once(doing what we all wanted to do since Season 5) and beaten his sister, who Theon knows is a better warrior than he is. I would be scared. As for Yara, unfortunately Euron in the books does some terrible stuff to his prisoners. There's a chapter called "Forsaken" where he brutally tortures Aeron Greyjoy; I predict that the same will happen to Yara here. 

As for the episode, it was good except for the Missandei and Grey Worm scene. I also thought the naval battle was phenomenal, and captured Euron from the books better than any of his other scenes; he's completely crazy, but also quite intelligent in terms of using the element of surprise and concentrating his forces where his goal is. He's not the nihilist with a god complex that i love in the books, but eh, he's decent. I also think that what Arya does here puts lie to the idea that she is the Waif; she wouldn't go north if she was. For that matter, she wouldn't kill the Freys if she was, but eh, tinfoil. At this point it's better to pretend a lot of season five didn't happen and be glad the show is pretty good again.

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I'm not sure how I feel about the Tyrells getting defeated so easily. Isn't it rather out of character for everyone involved?

The Tyrells are supposed to be one of the stronger realms in Westeros. Tywin called them the only real rival of the Lannisters, Robert got his single defeat by their hand, their numbers made even Renly a serious contender and the Tyrells are led by the only person to be on something resembling equal footing with Tywin.

The Lannisters on the other hand are led by Cersei who is portrayed as rather incompetent and short sighted. Where did she suddenly get the competence to completely steamroll the entire Reach. I suppose Jaime did have a solid tactic but even that shouldn't be enough to completely destroy the Tyrels in one swoop. That's Tywin level stuff and both of them not being Tywin is supposed to be the point.  

And is it wrong that I have zero sympathy for the horrible fate inflicted on Elleria and the sand siblings? I mean, they did murder their entire family because they couldn't wrap their head around Oberyn willingly entering a fight and dying because he kept goofing around.

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6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm not sure how I feel about the Tyrells getting defeated so easily. Isn't it rather out of character for everyone involved?

The Tyrells are supposed to be one of the stronger realms in Westeros. Tywin called them the only real rival of the Lannisters, Robert got his single defeat by their hand, their numbers made even Renly a serious contender and the Tyrells are led by the only person to be on something resembling equal footing with Tywin.

The Lannisters on the other hand are led by Cersei who is portrayed as rather incompetent and short sighted. Where did she suddenly get the competence to completely steamroll the entire Reach. I suppose Jaime did have a solid tactic but even that shouldn't be enough to completely destroy the Tyrels in one swoop. That's Tywin level stuff and both of them not being Tywin is supposed to be the point.  

And is it wrong that I have zero sympathy for the horrible fate inflicted on Elleria and the sand siblings? I mean, they did murder their entire family because they couldn't wrap their head around Oberyn willingly entering a fight and dying because he kept goofing around.

I really enjoyed this episode.

The Tyrells were not easily defeated in this episode.  They were easily defeated when Margaery Tyrell and everyone else but the ol' lady blew up in the citadel.  It was just her and as the saying goes, 'dig two graves'.  She was behaving very aggressively and did not think about the defense of the Tyrell's home, she just wanted to take Circe down.  This is what led her to her downfall.  The Tyrell's army is known to be very weak, their power comes from politics, openly engaging with the Lannisters without proper support from the Danny is what killed her.  If she cared about the wellbeing of her people and her house, she would have let it go, but she couldn't.

Tyrell's were one of the strongest, because they provide food to many of the other kingdoms.  Without their support, the seven kingdoms would fall apart.  That's why they are rivals to house Lannister, not because they have a big army.

Also, many including the aftershow writers say that the true winner was Alerie Tyrell when she drank the poison to avoid suffering and then told Jamie that she murdered his son the same way.  Now she gets to die peacefully and know that she is going to cause Circe a great deal of pain.  

 

I think it had to happen this way.  At the end of season 6, I was thinking the Lannisters were screwed.  No way they would be able to fend off the Greyjoys, Targaryians, Starks, and Dornish at once.  I think everyone but Jon and Danny had to die or be captured right away to show you just how powerful Circe and her brother are.  I think that was the point.  Time and time again the Lannisters are faced in a bad situation.  Then, you hear the Reins of Castemere playing in the background and you know they're about to turn things around.  Happens every time.  The Red Wedding, The Citadel, and now this.  It's a song about an underdog rising to power, something the Lannisters do time and time again.  I think that's what they were going for.

Cersei is potrayed as shortsighted you're right.  But she is also potrayed as a master manipulator, not ignorant.  She has been for the whole show.  She conspired to put her and her brother on the throne by murdering her husband and his hand, which worked.  She conspired the Citadel attack.  Most importantly, the war between her and Margaery in season 5 and 6 was amazing.  They were both master manipulators and while it appeared Margaery was the better manipulator, she is not willing to do what Cersei was.  That's what makes her such a good tactician, she has no rules.  Jamie is probably the one who was considered ignorant.  Constantly failing and this episode was all about how he has learned from his mistakes and he has become wise.

 

I apologize for any misspellings.  At first I was being careful to make sure all my house names were correct, and then I decided it wasn't worth looking up the spelling every 5 seconds.

Edited by Lushen

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