A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones thread: A Clash of Threads

[blah the Prussian]

Since when did the Tyrells not have a large army? The forces of the Reach were like 50,000 at Blackwater. The Reach is explicitly the most powerful army. Now, it still makes sense for the Tyrells to fold so easily. Why? Because their banner men turned against them. It's a plot point in the books that the other houses of the Reach resent the Tyrells; they're considered "up jumped stewards" because they were the stewards of the Gardeners who Aegon made Lords Paramounts when other houses, like the Florents and Tarly's, had better claims due to being related to the a Gardeners. So, it makes perfect sense for the vast majority of the Reachlords to support the Lannisters; this is what they've been waiting for literally since the Conquest. Sure, we only see Randyl, but Cersei made the appeal to a bunch of dudes; Randyl was likely only at the front because he was made the new Lord Paramount. I think a similar thing will happen to the Tyrells in the books, though ironically their banner,en will turn in favor of the Targaryens, not the Lannisters.

Also, Jaime being Tywin militarily is kind of the point now. He showed great competence when taking Riverrun, and overall was considered a decent commander who was just arrogant; that was what let Robb beat him. Now he isn't as arrogant. The Lannister war plan I can easily see him developing.

[Lushen]

15 hours ago, blah the Prussian said:

Since when did the Tyrells not have a large army? The forces of the Reach were like 50,000 at Blackwater.

Remember the Lannisters were the ones who actually resolved Blackwater.

Also, a large bulk of their forces came from Randyll Tarly who sided with the Lannisters.  It was mentioned in ep2 that if Randyll Tarly supports the queen, the other houses will also.  Tyrells had a lot of allies, but they all supported the Queen.  The army that actually belongs to the Tyrell is quite small.  Alerie Tyrell even said at the end of ep3 that they were never very good at fighting.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Lushen

[blah the Prussian]

45 minutes ago, Lushen said:

Remember the Lannisters were the ones who actually resolved Blackwater.

Also, a large bulk of their forces came from Randyll Tarly who sided with the Lannisters.  It was mentioned in ep2 that if Randyll Tarly supports the queen, the other houses will also.  Tyrells had a lot of allies, but they all supported the Queen.  The army that actually belongs to the Tyrell is quite small.  Alerie Tyrell even said at the end of ep3 that they were never very good at fighting.

Tyrells in the books at least contributed 50,000 dudes to Blackwater. And yeah, their strength is their banner men, same as the other houses(actually, the Hightowers are their strongest vassal, but eh, Euron isn't attacking the Reach so they won't have a role). 

[Ae†her]

Contains vague spoilers for episode 4.

Spoiler

Idk if people have seen the leaked episode/content yet, but I just gotta say the ending battle is like what happens when you don't pay attention to escape route cavalry enemies with your infantry units in arena. Also finally Danny realizes what she is truly good at.

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Logos

[Lushen]

@Logos Spoiler tags are probably best for leaked info.  I read like half your post and quit so it worked for me, but still.  I haven't watched the ep yet.

 

Is anyone else wondering if Danny will use her fire powers in westeros?  I think she will, but it will be less dramatic.  Like while she's taking Kings Landing she will casually walk straight though a burning building and everyone around her will be like WTF, but it won't be a huge crowd like in Essos.  Really, if I was her I would just go to all the lords w/o much allegiance and do that magic trick to get them to join me.  Works every time.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Lushen

[Ae†her]

16 minutes ago, Lushen said:

@Logos Spoiler tags are probably best for leaked info.  I read like half your post and quit so it worked for me, but still.  I haven't watched the ep yet.

I left it really vague, but you're right I should put it in spoiler. Also if you do see the episode would you mind coming back, and telling me if my analogy is on point or not?

[blah the Prussian]

If I were her I would land in the Stormlands. They would hate the Lannisters, and they haven't even had a new LP selected. 

[Lushen]

On 8/5/2017 at 5:37 PM, Logos said:

Contains vague spoilers for episode 4.

  Hide contents

Idk if people have seen the leaked episode/content yet, but I just gotta say the ending battle is like what happens when you don't pay attention to escape route cavalry enemies with your infantry units in arena. Also finally Danny realizes what she is truly good at.

 

Lol,

I think Danny finally took the Tyrell's advice and "be[came] a dragon". Though, I think she always was - it was just being suppressed by her advisors.  I'm worried about how this affects Tyrion's role in GoT.  I want to remember him as a brilliant strategist but so far all he's done is fuck up.  It also kind of breaks any realism/immersion.  No way Danny would keep Tyrion as her hand, he hasn't done anything that didn't eventually fail miserably.  He was much better when he was in King's Landing.

I had also assumed she was going to take out the Ironborn navy instead of this, her army is still trapped in Casterly Rock.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Lushen

[blah the Prussian]

2 hours ago, Lushen said:

Lol,

I think Danny finally took the Tyrell's advice and "be[came] a dragon". Though, I think she always was - it was just being suppressed by her advisors.  I'm worried about how this affects Tyrion's role in GoT.  I want to remember him as a brilliant strategist but so far all he's done is fuck up.  It also kind of breaks any realism/immersion.  No way Danny would keep Tyrion as her hand, he hasn't done anything that didn't eventually fail miserably.  He was much better when he was in King's Landing.

I had also assumed she was going to take out the Ironborn navy instead of this, her army is still trapped in Casterly Rock.

Again, he was never a brilliant strategist. He has one battle that he sort of helped to win, but only halfway at best. Yes, he made two clever moves in that battle, but he also screwed up in some ways, eg his handling of the Antlermen, and his bringing Joffrey out on the field in the first place. The almost certain occasion of Joffrey being a little bitch has a drawback to morale which far outweighs any benefits. He was always more of a politician than a strategist.

[Ae†her]

3 hours ago, Lushen said:

Lol,

I think Danny finally took the Tyrell's advice and "be[came] a dragon". Though, I think she always was - it was just being suppressed by her advisors.  I'm worried about how this affects Tyrion's role in GoT.  I want to remember him as a brilliant strategist but so far all he's done is fuck up.  It also kind of breaks any realism/immersion.  No way Danny would keep Tyrion as her hand, he hasn't done anything that didn't eventually fail miserably.  He was much better when he was in King's Landing.

I had also assumed she was going to take out the Ironborn navy instead of this, her army is still trapped in Casterly Rock.

I feel like Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion all have the different traits of their father, but their primary quality are those different traits. For example, Jaime has the great tactical and militaristic mind like his father, but that's pretty much it with him, of course worth noting that he was one of the best swordsmen in the show and books. Cersei has the great political power, and kingship traits that Tywin had when he was running Kingslanding; like the way she planned to deal with the Iron Bank, and the way she allied with Euron, and encouraged the other lords of the Reach and in Westeros to help her. Tyrion seems to be good at solving societal problems, and problems that are involved with slavery, and culture, sort of like what he did in Meereen. Although really Tyrion seems like the oddball in comparison to Cersei and Jaime, which adds to my belief that Tyrion is a secret Targaryen.

I don't think Tyrion is really the best sort of military commander, but he seems capable enough to at least hold a victory over a Greyjoy battalion on land. I think for now all we can remember Tyrion for is being a unique and great philosopher of sorts.

[Etrurian emperor]

On 9-8-2017 at 7:44 AM, Logos said:

I feel like Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion all have the different traits of their father, but their primary quality are those different traits. For example, Jaime has the great tactical and militaristic mind like his father, but that's pretty much it with him, of course worth noting that he was one of the best swordsmen in the show and books. Cersei has the great political power, and kingship traits that Tywin had when he was running Kingslanding; like the way she planned to deal with the Iron Bank, and the way she allied with Euron, and encouraged the other lords of the Reach and in Westeros to help her. Tyrion seems to be good at solving societal problems, and problems that are involved with slavery, and culture, sort of like what he did in Meereen. Although really Tyrion seems like the oddball in comparison to Cersei and Jaime, which adds to my belief that Tyrion is a secret Targaryen.

I don't think Tyrion is really the best sort of military commander, but he seems capable enough to at least hold a victory over a Greyjoy battalion on land. I think for now all we can remember Tyrion for is being a unique and great philosopher of sorts.

I think its a deliberate point about that Lanisters that rather than Tywin having an ideal heir he has his skills distributed between three heirs. If the Lanisters worked together they might have kept things together after Tywin's death. Though I think the trait that went into Cersei is ruthlessness rather then political skills since she's supposed to be kinda bad at actually wielding power.

 

[Lushen]

36 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think its a deliberate point about that Lanisters that rather than Tywin having an ideal heir he has his skills distributed between three heirs. If the Lanisters worked together they might have kept things together after Tywin's death. Though I think the trait that went into Cersei is ruthlessness rather then political skills since she's supposed to be kinda bad at actually wielding power.

 

Yea I think ultimately the Lannisters will fall apart because of Cersei.  I just hope in the show when/if (let's be honest, when) she died you can see her acknowledge that this is all her fault.  I'd love to see some Cersei self-pity before it's over.

I'm also really rooting for Yara.  I think it's unlikely that she makes it out of this, since it's fairly obvious that Theon will somehow rise to power, but I love her character.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Lushen

[blah the Prussian]

Well if this was book Euron he'd get her high on I can't believe it's not LSD, after which she'll have nightmarish visions of Euron dominating the world, setting him up as perhaps a threat even greater than the White Walkers. Unfortunately, this is show Euron, so probably generic torture that doesn't allow for nearly as much awesome imagery. 

Every human being alive should read the Winds of Winter sample chapter Forsaken

[Ae†her]

7 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think its a deliberate point about that Lanisters that rather than Tywin having an ideal heir he has his skills distributed between three heirs. If the Lanisters worked together they might have kept things together after Tywin's death. Though I think the trait that went into Cersei is ruthlessness rather then political skills since she's supposed to be kinda bad at actually wielding power.

 

Oh no doubt she has been awful right up until Season 7. Season 7 she's actually starting to show some good traits of a ruler, and I think now more than ever her ruthlessness will actually start to be beneficial for her. 

Spoiler

Of course until Jaime kills her and his sword lights up on fire.

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Logos

[blah the Prussian]

13 hours ago, Logos said:

Oh no doubt she has been awful right up until Season 7. Season 7 she's actually starting to show some good traits of a ruler, and I think now more than ever her ruthlessness will actually start to be beneficial for her. 

  Hide contents

Of course until Jaime kills her and his sword lights up on fire.

 

Ah, I see you're a man of culture, as well.

[Etrurian emperor]

15 hours ago, Logos said:

Oh no doubt she has been awful right up until Season 7. Season 7 she's actually starting to show some good traits of a ruler, and I think now more than ever her ruthlessness will actually start to be beneficial for her. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Of course until Jaime kills her and his sword lights up on fire.

 

That's partly why I have trouble taking the premise of this season seriously. Cersei shouldn't have some good traits of a ruler, its out of character for her to do a good job. 

Her sudden competence also happens on a scale that makes other characters seem bad in comparison. Her daddy needed two whole seasons to subdue 2 regions of Westeros while Cersei only needs two episodes to crush two regions, both of which came out of the previous war fairly fresh. Complimentary material even says the Riverlands and North combined can't even field an army as big as the Reach can but Cersei still only needed one episode to defeat them.

It also subverts the ending of the last season. The Green Trial embodied Cersei's approach because she managed to win completely on the short term whilst being hopeless in the long run.  Most importantly pissing off the Reach left leaves her to face a huge army and puts her food supply at risk while killing uncle Kevan and pulling the crazy antics Jaime sacrificed his honor to prevent should make the Lannisters very wary of Cersei too. But the aftermath of the last season has been dealt with very swiftly. Jaimie and the Lannisters hardly seem to care and the Reach rebelling doesn't matter when they go down like a bitch.

I suppose the writers just wrote themselves into a corner. If they followed up on the Green trial Cersei would be a cakewalk but by giving Cersei a fighting chance they made practically everyone act out of character. Cersei is suddenly very competent, Lannisters don't always repay their debts after all, Tyrion is now a bad strategist and Olenna and the Reach turned out to be a bunch of wimps.  

[Ansem]

Read the leaks about tomorrow's episode. Things get weird 

[Lushen]

On 8/11/2017 at 5:46 PM, Logos said:

Oh no doubt she has been awful right up until Season 7. Season 7 she's actually starting to show some good traits of a ruler, and I think now more than ever her ruthlessness will actually start to be beneficial for her. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Of course until Jaime kills her and his sword lights up on fire.

 

I think that's WHY she's winning.  The tyrells even mentioned this when she died, she didn't think Cercei could be this evil.  The same thing happened in the holy scepter, I expect it to keep happening until...yea your spoiler.  It's pretty obvious he will see her basically turning into the mad king but I'm interested to how he will view danny in the coming episodes.

[Ae†her]

13 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That's partly why I have trouble taking the premise of this season seriously. Cersei shouldn't have some good traits of a ruler, its out of character for her to do a good job. 

Her sudden competence also happens on a scale that makes other characters seem bad in comparison. Her daddy needed two whole seasons to subdue 2 regions of Westeros while Cersei only needs two episodes to crush two regions, both of which came out of the previous war fairly fresh. Complimentary material even says the Riverlands and North combined can't even field an army as big as the Reach can but Cersei still only needed one episode to defeat them.

It also subverts the ending of the last season. The Green Trial embodied Cersei's approach because she managed to win completely on the short term whilst being hopeless in the long run.  Most importantly pissing off the Reach left leaves her to face a huge army and puts her food supply at risk while killing uncle Kevan and pulling the crazy antics Jaime sacrificed his honor to prevent should make the Lannisters very wary of Cersei too. But the aftermath of the last season has been dealt with very swiftly. Jaimie and the Lannisters hardly seem to care and the Reach rebelling doesn't matter when they go down like a bitch.

I suppose the writers just wrote themselves into a corner. If they followed up on the Green trial Cersei would be a cakewalk but by giving Cersei a fighting chance they made practically everyone act out of character. Cersei is suddenly very competent, Lannisters don't always repay their debts after all, Tyrion is now a bad strategist and Olenna and the Reach turned out to be a bunch of wimps.  

Cersei actually can be a good ruler because she is pretty much the Queen of Kingslanding now, and before that she didn't have that kind of power and priority. She's not good because she has the traits of a good ruler, instead it's more because she is good at helping herself no matter what, and now that priority comes down to her being the queen of a blooming kingdom. Before her actions have killed her children, and allowed a lot of terrible things to happen, but even after all that she still turned out fine. Cersei is selfish, and has selfish reasons for nearly everything.

[Lushen]

Jon & Drogon Romance confirmed.

[Ae†her]

I'm starting to not have that much appeal left for Jon. I mean I can barely respect the dude because he's naive as hell, and in the world of GoT naivety and gullibility gets you killed, just look at his father, and brother. By the way Ned, and Jon are almost exactly the same person. lol

Spoiler

Also after episode 6 gotta share these memes.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Logos

[Jingle Jangle]

What should be the best ways of a newcomer to enjoy the A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones series. Any recommendations, places to start, or any mindset that I should have when reading/watching?

[blah the Prussian]

3 hours ago, Jingle Jangle said:

What should be the best ways of a newcomer to enjoy the A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones series. Any recommendations, places to start, or any mindset that I should have when reading/watching?

I would definitely recommend starting with the books; many of the plot twists are better to read about IMO, plus many characters on the show are better than in the books; the only character I can think of that the show does better is Margaery. The show is definitely worth seeing, though, because of its cinematography and the performances. I guess that my best piece of advice for a new reader would be to pay attention to dream sequences and prophesies; so much is foreshadowed.

[Lushen]

On 8/22/2017 at 8:39 AM, Jingle Jangle said:

What should be the best ways of a newcomer to enjoy the A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones series. Any recommendations, places to start, or any mindset that I should have when reading/watching?

Depends if you like TV or Books more.  If you want everything, I'd do both honestly - perhaps separating it by a few months.  The cliche thing to say is to read the books first, but I think with GoT both are equally good and you can do either one you like.

 

Anyone else praying for Yara Grejoy in the finale?  She's the one character I wan't to see fighting the dead the most (would have been Ygritte, but yea...). 

[Elincia]

Man episode 6 was insane. (Fire and Ice <3) Can't wait for the finale. I am a bit bummed over this season being cut short (from what I've heard it was supposedly cause of time and budget constraints).

Havent gotten around to reading the books yet. I'm well aware that the show has long gone off the books, but still. Should probably read through them while waiting for season 8.