KliffIsTheOG Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) For those who want to see how the two lords have changed from 1992 to now, I will post the entirety of Alm and Celica's dialogue with context! Alm joining the Deliverance: Spoiler [Lukas] The infamous general Desaix has initiated a coup. Zofia’s castle has been captured and the king has been killed. We formed a liberation force to fight against Desaix, but it’s not good enough. So, I came to ask General Mycen for help. [Mycen] What? Join the Deliverance?! I won’t allow it! War brings only sorrow… [Lukas] Sir Mycen has grown cowardly in his old age. To think that he was once called Zofia’s hero… [Alm] Wait— I’ll join in place of Gramps. [Lukas] Eh? You’ll come in his stead? Thank you. My comrades will be pleased. Let’s go to the Deliverance hideout. Alm talking to Forsyth Spoiler [Forsyth] Desaix requested aid from Rigel, up north. If Rigel complies, we won’t stand a chance! [Alm] But the ‘Gods’ Pact’ upheld by Zofia and Rigel… It means we won’t war, right? Our guardian, Lady Mila would never allow it. [Forsyth] Yeah, well… There’s a rumor that Lady Mila has disappeared. Hey, hey! Don’t look so surprised! After all, it’s been strange lately, hasn’t it? Crops failing, odd demons emerging… Only Mila’s temple knows what’s going on I guess. Alm and Mycen at Castle Zofia Spoiler [Mycen] Alm, you came… [Alm] Gramps! Why are you at Zofia Castle? [Mycen] I can’t seem to escape destiny. Alm, it’s best if you follow your own path. Free this land of Valentia from its cursed fate. You and the red-haired girl who will visit this castle soon… perhaps that is what fate has in store for you… Celica leaving Novis Spoiler [Celica] Well, Bishop Noma, I’ll be off. [Noma] Celica… Must you go? The road to Mila’s temple is long. Between Grieth’s pirates and the evil fiends rising, you’ll surely be attacked. It’s too risky… [Celica] But Father, it’s been three years since we last grew crops. What in the world befell the Earth goddess Mila? I want to find out for myself. [Noma] I see… If you insist, then I shall not stop you, Celica. You know why Sir Mycen placed you in my care, right? You are the last of the Zofian royal family. Zofia’s people depend on you. Don’t try to do the impossible. Celica meeting Mycen at Zofia Castle Spoiler [Mycen] Celica, It’s bee a while, eh? [Celica] …? Grandfather! Why are you here?! [Mycen] Well, for many reasons… I see you’ve arrived safely. [Celica] Yes, thanks to my allies. We’re all going to Mila’s Temple. [Mycen] I see… Well, you might want to head upstairs first. You should find someone you’re been wishing to meet. [Celica] It…it can’t be! …Alm? Sofia’s liberator couldn’t be Alm… could it? [Mycen] Well, why don’t you go see? Alm and Celica's reunion Spoiler [Alm] …? You are… Ce… Celica! [Celica] Alm… So it really was you. I haven’t seen you since I left the village… [Alm] Yeah. We always used to play together. I held a serious grudge against Gramps the day you were sent away. [Celica] I was sad too, but Grandfather told me why he did it: ‘If you stay in Ram, Desaix will come to kill you.’ [Alm] But why? Why would Desaix want to kill you, Celica? [Celica] That… I’m sorry. I’d rather not say right now. In any case, Almm I have a request. Can war be avoided with the kingdom of Rigel? [Alm] That’s impossible. King Rudolf of Rigel decided to attack while Zofia is weak. At this rate Zofia will be destroyed. [Celica] But aren’t we all the same? We should be able to coexist. [Alm] There’s no way. Zofians won’t tolerate Rigel’s barbaric rule. We must retaliate! [Celica] How sad… I’m sure if we talked, we could come to an understanding… Unless, All, now that the Zofians call you their hero, you want to become their king as well? [Alm] What! That’s mean, Celica. I just want to protect the people of Zofia, that’s all. Besides, Sofia’s only remaining princess is still alive. I’m planning to search for her. After I find her, I’m returning to Ram. [Celica] That’s not true! Sofia’s royal family is gone! But I get it, Alm. You go ahead to Rigel. My companions and I are going to Mila’s Temple. [Alm] Celica!? [Celica] Goodbye, Alm… Alm giving orders Spoiler [Alm] Everyone, stay alert! A brigade from Rigel is closing in. Fortify our defenses! Scatter our foes and pick them off one by one! Celica recruiting Jesse Spoiler [Jesse] Aw, thanks. You saved me. Name’s Jesse. Just some merc. I go caught helping out a girl jailed in Grieth’s Citadel. Cute kid from a foreign land. [Celica] That has to be Est… Hey, Jesse. Is there a way we can save her? [Jesse] Nope. There’s no way the few of us can do anything. [Celica] But there must be a way… [Jesse] Well, I guess… Grieth has these two underlings: Sonia and Deen. They guard the north and south desert regions, respectively. Both of them seem to hate Grieth. However, neither will betray him while the other’s alive. If you defeat one, the other may become your ally. Oh, and of course I’ll lend you a hand, too. Celica learning about her mother and receiving the diadem Spoiler [Girl] Thank you. Now I can return to my service at Mila’s Temple. …! Hold on… Could it be?! [Celica] Hmm? What’s the matter? [Girl] My apologies. You just bear a striking resemblance to Lady Liprica. [Celica] Liprica!? That was my mother’s name! [Girl] Then…then you truly are princes Anthiese! This is wonderful! [Celica] You knew my mother? Please… Tell me about her… [Girl] Yes… Lady Liprica was originally a priestess at Mila’s Temple. The king, charmed by her beauty, forcibly made her his queen. It was hard for her to bear, and she soon caught a grave disease. Soon after she gave birth to you, she perished… She worried so about you… Oh Lady Anthiese, don’t cry… I have something I must give you. This diadem proves that you are the princess of Zofia. Please use your power to save the kingdom. Celica giving orders Spoiler [Celica] Look! the Temple of Mila! Stay alert— Mikhail, one of the Duma faithful is ahead. Everyone, protect our frailer allies! Celica recruiting Noma Spoiler [Celica] Bishop Noma! Why in the world are you here? [Noma] I go worried and followed you. Then I accidentally fell down here. Haha, what a folly! Well, from now on, I’m coming along with you. That’ll ease my mind. Alm recruiting Zeke Spoiler [Zeke] You’re Alm, the one who saved Tatiana, aren’t you? Thank you kindly. [Alm] General Zeke, you oppose this war, correct? Please, join our cause. [Zeke] I cannot. I only helped you fight Jerome because he made my people suffer greatly. Besides… I don’t know who I am. All I can remember is that I washed up on Rigel’s shore. To my pitiful self, His Majesty Rudolf gave me a new life. I will not betray him. [Alm] I understand… Apologies for my rudeness. [Zeke] No, not at all… Hm!? Alm, what’s that mark on your right arm? [Alm] Mark? … Ah, I’ve always had this birthmark. What does it…? [Zeke] I see… His Majesty Rudolf once told me: “Zeke, if you find the one with a cross shaped birthmark on his right arm, you must dedicate yourself to that person. He will certainly become the savior of all of Valentia…” If this is his majesty’s will, then so be it! Alm, I shall fight with you! Celica meeting Halcyon Spoiler [Halcyon] I am Halcyon. Hmm…You have come here seeking the missing Mila? The sword that sealed Mila lies under the Tower of Duma. However… Jedah will now allow you to draw near. If there is anything I can do, I will lend you my power. [Celica] I have nothing to ask of you. Although, Alm… I’d like to help him… [Halcyon] I understand. I shall bless him with newly awakened powers. Alm and Mycen after Rudolf's death Spoiler [Alm] Ah, Gramps— what the hell is going on!? How could such an evil man as King Rudolf be my father?! [Mycen] Alm. Your shock is understandable… But now you are the only remaining heir of Rigel’s royal family. [Alm] But why… Why couldn’t I avoid fighting my own father? [Mycen] Don’t cry, Alm… Let me clarify your father’s actions. Valentia became divided because of the gods. They had involved themselves too deeply with mankind’s affairs. As a result, the people have lost balance and head for ruin. After some consideration, Rudolf posed as a destroyer to instigate the advent of true heroes in Valentia. I was told this when he placed his newborn child into my hands: "This child will consign himself to Hell's fire!" I couldn't refuse him. And so, I left all to fate. Alm. You mustn’t let Rudolf’s sacrifice be in vain. Go underground and slay the evil god Duma! Alm meeting Celica in Duma's labyrinth Spoiler [Alm] Celica! [Celica] Ah! Alm, help us… At this rate, everyone will… H-hurry… please… Alm and Celica in the final map Spoiler [Alm] Celica?! [Celica] Alm… [Alm] Don’t worry. I’ll crush these bastards. [Celica] It won’t work. Jedah somehow seals all attacks. Plus, Mogalls keep spawning and entangling us. We’re done for… Sorry, Alm. I was weak after all. I’ve had an odd premonition that pain awaits you… That’s why I left on a quest to save Mila… That’s why I didn’t want you to fight yet. I’m sorry I acted so cold… The truth is, I’ve always… [Alm] I understand. But Celica! Focus on escaping! I’ll definitely save you, so hang on! Also some Jedah to give context into Celica's decision in Gaiden: Spoiler [Jedah] Heheh, cute critter eh (referring to a Mogall) I din’t expect you to kill it so soon. That brat was named Alm, yes? If you do not wish to lose him girl… climb the Tower of Duma. (At this point in Gaiden, Alm was trapped in the dragon volcano by Jedah, and the only way to free Alm is was to complete Celica’s route) [Jedah] Heheh… Celica. Alm’s trapped in Dragon Mountain. Follow me if you want to save him. If you sacrifice yourselves to lord Duma, Alm’s path shall again open up! (After Celica walks through the next door, she and her party fall into the final map and get trapped) [Jedah] Heheh, so you’re finally here. This is Duma’s Altar, our site of human suffering. Thus, I shall kill you slowly and painfully. Your pain will be lord Duma’s magnificent feast… Edited June 27, 2017 by KliffIsTheOG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athena_57 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Thanks for compiling this! For people like me who haven't played Gaiden it really helps show how amazingly they fleshed it out whilst remaining faithful, just look at Alm and Mycen's conversation after Rudolf's death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Karnage Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 that's like a 1000% increase on the ammount of dialoug over the original game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Thank you for your efforts! It's curious how barebones the dialogue is in some respects and yet how much information it manages to convey in far fewer words... I also think some of it sounds better than the lengthier dialogue in Echoes (although that's probably because it's harder to see some of the glaring plot holes when there's less dialogue). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KliffIsTheOG Posted June 27, 2017 Author Share Posted June 27, 2017 Whoops, I kind of left out the most impactful part of Alm and Mycen's talk after Rudolf's death - fixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 You mean Celica didn't have a different thing to say to the seven different cats in Act 2? There WEREN'T seven cats in the original? What a terrible game. Jedah's "Heheh" catch phrase can't even save it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ertrick36 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I like to imagine Lukas judging Mycen with his Echoes voice. His demeanor this game is such a far cry from what he was like in the original. It's one of the most significant changes to a character in Gaiden. And I remember that in Gaiden, everyone in Celica's party was sent with her to be sacrificed to Duma, instead of Judah deceptively teleporting the others away to some other place in Duma Temple. I actually was expecting this to be the case in Echoes as well. Though that would most certainly make Celica an actually shitty person, sacrificing a bunch of people (more than half of whom she only just met) without their consent just so she could save some dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyon's Dirge Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Quote [Lukas] Sir Mycen has grown cowardly in his old age. To think that he was once called Zofia’s hero… That's harsh Lukas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFlames Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 So basically, each conversation just jumped from conflict to conclusion in a matter of seconds? Heck, and people accuse Awakening and Fates for bad writing and 'cartoonishly evil' villains. "Heheh. I'm so evil and sh*t" Jeez. No wonder people were initially skeptical of Gaiden of all things being remade... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerson Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 13 hours ago, KliffIsTheOG said: [Alm] Don’t worry. I’ll crush these bastards. Still my favorite line from good ol' Gaiden... Right next to Saber's recruitment convo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KliffIsTheOG Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, DragonFlames said: So basically, each conversation just jumped from conflict to conclusion in a matter of seconds? Heck, and people accuse Awakening and Fates for bad writing and 'cartoonishly evil' villains. "Heheh. I'm so evil and sh*t" Jeez. No wonder people were initially skeptical of Gaiden of all things being remade... To which conversations are you referring? Also keep in mind that this was in the NES days where you were lucky if a game had a story at all. Edited June 28, 2017 by KliffIsTheOG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Can we drop this meme that Shadows of Valentia changed Alm's personality? I feel people took that one line about crushing bastards along with the complete misinterpretation and character derailment that Alm got in Awakening's DLC and simply assumed that was Alm's personality. He's almost completely unchanged from Gaiden to Shadows of Valentia. Edited June 28, 2017 by RJWalker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFlames Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 3 hours ago, KliffIsTheOG said: To which conversations are you referring? Also keep in mind that this was in the NES days where you were lucky if a game had a story at all. The Alm and Celica after Act 2 one, but it is present in the others as well. As for your second statement: Fair point. I hadn't really considered that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KliffIsTheOG Posted June 29, 2017 Author Share Posted June 29, 2017 21 hours ago, RJWalker said: Can we drop this meme that Shadows of Valentia changed Alm's personality? I feel people took that one line about crushing bastards along with the complete misinterpretation and character derailment that Alm got in Awakening's DLC and simply assumed that was Alm's personality. He's almost completely unchanged from Gaiden to Shadows of Valentia. That wasn't the purpose of my post at all. In fact, it was nearly the opposite. The original reason I decided to make this is because I had seen people who had not played Gaiden thinking that Alm was like an edgy OC due to the spread of said interpretation. Gaiden Alm was just a bit more assertive and stubborn with lines like "That's impossible (to coexist with the Rigelians). Zofians will not tolerate Rigel's barbaric rule, we must retaliate!" Showing that he is too cynical of Rigel to negotiate prior to warring, while also showing that his actions are to save Zofians from the Rigelian empire. He also feels anger at first after hearing that Spoiler Rudolf is his father with the line Spoiler Ah, Gramps— what the hell is going on!? How could such an evil man as King Rudolf be my father?! prior to feeling sadness. He may have also been more confident in battle with his lines giving orders, and when he says that he will definitely save Celica even after she says that it is impossible. But yes, these are not nearly as large changes as people make them out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 On 6/29/2017 at 10:43 PM, KliffIsTheOG said: That wasn't the purpose of my post at all. In fact, it was nearly the opposite. The original reason I decided to make this is because I had seen people who had not played Gaiden thinking that Alm was like an edgy OC due to the spread of said interpretation. Gaiden Alm was just a bit more assertive and stubborn with lines like "That's impossible (to coexist with the Rigelians). Zofians will not tolerate Rigel's barbaric rule, we must retaliate!" Showing that he is too cynical of Rigel to negotiate prior to warring, while also showing that his actions are to save Zofians from the Rigelian empire. He also feels anger at first after hearing that Reveal hidden contents Rudolf is his father with the line Hide contents Ah, Gramps— what the hell is going on!? How could such an evil man as King Rudolf be my father?! prior to feeling sadness. He may have also been more confident in battle with his lines giving orders, and when he says that he will definitely save Celica even after she says that it is impossible. But yes, these are not nearly as large changes as people make them out to be. The permanent scowl he has on his sprite is also a factor. It might not be as major as some people are assuming but Alm definitely had a shift in personality more towards the generic in the remake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 (edited) Keep in mind, translation patches were more literal a few years ago and those don't translate well in tone. Those who think that Alm is some savage warrior grossly misinterpreted his character. Edited June 30, 2017 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maybe Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 13 minutes ago, Jotari said: The permanent scowl he has on his sprite is also a factor. It might not be as major as some people are assuming but Alm definitely had a shift in personality more towards the generic in the remake. even in the NES version, rudolf says to his men "I hear that Sofia’s young general is a man of compassion." his reputation in the game is of someone kind who would spare their lives, not some fearsome warrior. i don't think alm was ever meant to be more than just a kind, young hero character Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 23 minutes ago, unique said: even in the NES version, rudolf says to his men "I hear that Sofia’s young general is a man of compassion." his reputation in the game is of someone kind who would spare their lives, not some fearsome warrior. i don't think alm was ever meant to be more than just a kind, young hero character No, he wasn't some blood fueled anti hero. He still does things like save Delthea and Tatiana but he does come across as more aggressive and confrontational with people compared to someone like Marth. Even with minimal dialogue stuff like this can be displayed. Like the way Alm asks Mycen to join the deliverance in Gaiden while in Shadows of Valentia Mycen just disappears. They still have a conversation about Alm leaving the village before Lukas shows up but it amounts to Alm saying "I'm ready to see the world" and Mycen saying "STFU you're not." (to self)"Why is grandpa such a bore?" Even if there was only one line of dialogue in Gaiden "I won't go, war brings only sorrow" it conveys a different meaning. For Alm to join after talking to Mycen and hearing Mycen say that it implies Alm disagrees with the sentiment. It conveys a full argument with only one line, an argument that just doesn't happen in the remake where Mycen just disappears. Perhaps some of us are extrapolating the minimalist text a little too much but it isn't unfounded. Awakening didn't pull Alm's lines out of its ass. Overall it is a bit of a shame they made Alm so cheery and perfect because it was a great chance to have a more standout and interesting lord among the ensemble cast of a lot of somewhat samey characters. And even if Alm was super-happy-care-bear-man in the original Gaiden, the thematic set up of the story still calls for a harden protagonist and a softer protagonist that need to balance each other out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Jotari said: Even if there was only one line of dialogue in Gaiden "I won't go, war brings only sorrow" it conveys a different meaning. For Alm to join after talking to Mycen and hearing Mycen say that it implies Alm disagrees with the sentiment. It conveys a full argument with only one line, an argument that just doesn't happen in the remake where Mycen just disappears. Perhaps some of us are extrapolating the minimalist text a little too much but it isn't unfounded. Awakening didn't pull Alm's lines out of its ass. Overall it is a bit of a shame they made Alm so cheery and perfect because it was a great chance to have a more standout and interesting lord among the ensemble cast of a lot of somewhat samey characters. And even if Alm was super-happy-care-bear-man in the original Gaiden, the thematic set up of the story still calls for a harden protagonist and a softer protagonist that need to balance each other out. Yo, does anyone pay attention to the JP speaker... Like at all? [マイセン] ＊「なに かいほうぐんにはいるだと！▼ ＊「だめだ。ゆるさん！！▼ ＊「おまえは たたかってはならぬ かなしいおもいを するだけだ [ルカ] ＊「だめでしたか・・ざんねんです▼ ＊「マイセンどのも としをとられて おくびょうに なられたのですね▼ ＊「かつては ソフィアいちの ゆうしゃとして こくみんから そんけいされていたのに・・・ The Japanese omit pronouns. And the translators took a more aggressive tone in literal translation. For one, Lukas says "I see he has grown soft in his old age." Okubyou, they translated as cowardice instead of reading context. Lukas while disappointed maintains a tone of respect with their language. Something that is lost in translation. Edited June 30, 2017 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 (edited) This is my little analysis of Alm's main portraits in both games. Yeah Alm also does have a nice little smile in his original artwork but his mugshot is what you're looking at for most of the game when he speaks so it's going to have the largest affect on how the character is viewed (though personally, no amount of Gaiden playing will convince me Alm has blue hair. Long live Green haired lords!) 17 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said: Yo, does anyone pay attention to the JP speaker... Like at all? [マイセン] ＊「なに かいほうぐんにはいるだと！▼ ＊「だめだ。ゆるさん！！▼ ＊「おまえは たたかってはならぬ かなしいおもいを するだけだ [ルカ] ＊「だめでしたか・・ざんねんです▼ ＊「マイセンどのも としをとられて おくびょうに なられたのですね▼ ＊「かつては ソフィアいちの ゆうしゃとして こくみんから そんけいされていたのに・・・ The Japanese omit pronouns. And the translators took a more aggressive tone in literal translation. For one, Lukas says "I see he has grown soft in his old age." Okubyou, they translated as cowardice instead of reading context. Lukas while disappointed maintains a tone of respect with their language. Something that is lost in translation. I don't doubt that...but I wasn't really talking about any of the dialogue per se with that post. But while we're on the subject, does Alm still call Rudolf evil in the original version? Edited June 30, 2017 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Jotari said: But while we're on the subject, does Alm still call Rudolf evil in the original version? [アルム] ＊「あ じいちゃん いったいこれは どういうこと！？▼ ＊「あんなに にくんでいた ルドルフこうていが ぼくの ちちおやだなんて！！！▼ ＊「ひどいよ じいちゃんは なにもかも しっていたのか！ Gramps, how can this be? How can such a detestable man be my father? This is too cruel! Why didn't you do anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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