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Grand Hero Battle: Berkut!


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@Xenomata Honestly, they can do whatever they want with Infernal. It's an extra thing, and the rewards are the same as the ones in Lunatic Mode, so unless you REALLY want those feathers I don't see why you can't ignore it and just settle for Lunatic Mode.

Infernal is supposed to be an extreme challenge which the seasoned players have to figure out how to beat. Let's not try to make the difficulty what is not, imo.

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Managed to beat Infernal with Camus/Marth/Cecilia/Olivia! (All 5* except Olivia.)

Turn 1 was pretty much like the Camus/Palla/Ursula/Olivia video, with Marth moving towards the top left to bait the enemies while Cecilia moves down to the lower right and Camus and Olivia sit in place to fight the lance cavalier. Unlike in the video, Camus one-rounded the cav, due to being 5* and having Moonbow plus the Atk +1 seal for the last bit of damage.

Turn 2, I had to start changing things up because Berkut and the bow cav moved down instead of up, so I had to worry about them rather than just warp-killing the green mage. I ended up just having everyone hide in the lower right corner, with Cecilia sitting on the defense tile to block Berkut. She only took a bit of damage due to TA3, but that one round of combat charged his special, meaning he'd OHKO anyone if he got the chance to attack them again. (This also meant I wasn't able to have Cecilia chip him beforehand, which I learned the hard way on my last attempt.)

Turn 3 was the most complicated, since I had Berkut, the bow cav, and the green mage all alive and in my face. Camus had enough speed and power to one-round the bow cav, and Berkut had moved to attack Cecilia from above so there was a reasonable amount of space away from him, but killing the green mage was an issue. Marth couldn't quite do enough, even if Cecilia chipped first, and she couldn't chip twice because she'd die to two rounds of counters. Having Marth hit first and then Cecilia finish wasn't an option either because Cecilia needed to be on the far side of the mage to give Marth a safe spot to warp to out of Berkut's range, and she could only get there by moving a second time with Olivia's help. I ended up having Cecilia chip the bow cav, doing irrelevant damage but charging Draconic Aura with the help of QP. Camus killed the bow cav, Olivia danced for Cecilia from the safe spot below the forest blocking Berkut, Cecilia used her special to weaken the green mage, and Marth warped over to kill it. (It turned out pretty important that Cecilia hadn't taken much damage from Berkut earlier, since one round of combat against the green mage was almost lethal.)

Turns 4 and 5 were pretty simple from there, since Berkut, the axe cav, and the red tome cav were all approaching from different directions and easy to pick off. Marth one-rounded the red cav, Cecilia finished off the axe cav, and Camus used Reposition to get both Cecilia and Olivia safely out of Berkut's range. Then Cecilia just ripped Berkut apart.

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5 minutes ago, Othin said:

Turn 2, I had to start changing things up because Berkut and the bow cav moved down instead of up, so I had to worry about them rather than just warp-killing the green mage. I ended up just having everyone hide in the lower right corner, with Cecilia sitting on the defense tile to block Berkut. She only took a bit of damage due to TA3, but that one round of combat charged his special, meaning he'd OHKO anyone if he got the chance to attack them again. (This also meant I wasn't able to have Cecilia chip him beforehand, which I learned the hard way on my last attempt.)

I'm always amused when TA3 lets squishy mages get away with this kind of thing. I ended up having to do something similar on my Lunatic run with that same tile, but with Sanaki (and her whopping base 17 Def) against the axe cav.

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@BANRYU How's Titania? Can she tank any of the blue lances? Maybe running her instead of Nino with Abel together if they both have cavalry buffs? 

I'd also look into doing a bit of trial and error with positing on turn one to see if you can get the AI to spread out more to pick them off safely. (I burnt a few stamina pots doing that for my run. Eventually what worked for my team was to move the top two up, while keeping the bottom two below). So then there won't be a massive clusterf*ck of buffed cavalry coming at you @-@

 

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53 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:
Spoiler

 

In other words, instead of overwhelming the player with 6 units with huge stats, overwhelm the player with 50 units with "normal" stats.

  1. How is that any more "fair" than the current situation?
  2. How is that going to break through the tougher walls players have access to?
  3. How is that going to avoid being cheesed by a single Close Counter Vantage Blarblade+ cavalry unit who will not be named?

Who said 50? I never said 50, I said large.

 

Which means once one player has cleared the challenge and put the video on YouTube, everyone has cleared the challenge.

Battle Factory. Gives you 6 pokemon to choose from, you pick 3, and then you do battle. Once you finish the battle, you pick one of their pokemon to put on your own team. Now replace "pokemon" with "unit". Don't make assumptions about battle facilities, I've suffered every one of them.

 

Which defeats the purpose of actually playing this game.

No it doesn't. You can say any unit name, knowing their usually OP build, and there is a BS counter to them that the unit will walk right into without your telling them to stop.

 

How is this any more fun or fair than bumping up enemy stats?

Poison, remove some HP every turn. Boost everyones Defense by 4. Start with only 75% of your maximum HP. All skills have -1 cooldown at start of battle. Swap teams. Change win conditions. Disable special skills. Disable bonus skills on weapons. Stats cannot be altered. All units are treated as Infantry. I have more but I need to respond to the rest of this post.

Why?

I have trouble explaining the Battle Pike, but generally you leave the difficulty to random chance. Adapting to the change is only half the game.

Hector solo. Woo.

Triangle Adept 3 Axe Breaker 3 Red Mage. On only one of two or three enemy units.

 

Sounds like a good way to decrease the difficulty.

No healing between battles, and you need to purchase the ability to see the enemy team. Even if you pack a Reconcile healer, you still need to purchase the right to items (seals) and the right to power down or up the enemy for worse or better rewards.

 

Most strategies already involve killing off individual units within one turn because an enemy with 60 HP usually does the same amount of damage as an enemy with 1 HP.

But said enemy usually doesn't have Fortify Cavalry, Ward Cavalry, access to defensive tiles, and win conditions requiring no deaths.

 

No, you're just trying to shoehorn ideas from other games into this game regardless of how well it would actually work.

What do you think natures are. I already admit that my ideas, examples, forceful shoehorning, whatever you want to call it are too idealistic, shoehorny, whatever you want to call it. But games already do it every time. It's the standard, there isn't an original idea anymore. It's only "who did it best". FE Heroes already took a very pokemon-esque route in natures, whose to say a few more ideas couldn't hurt to utilize?

 

 

Jesus you made responding to this harder than it needed to be.

 

37 minutes ago, Doof said:

@Xenomata Honestly, they can do whatever they want with Infernal. It's an extra thing, and the rewards are the same as the ones in Lunatic Mode, so unless you REALLY want those feathers I don't see why you can't ignore it and just settle for Lunatic Mode.

Infernal is supposed to be an extreme challenge which the seasoned players have to figure out how to beat. Let's not try to make the difficulty what is not, imo.

It's the SAME extreme challenge every time. It's been the same every time so far. Legion had the most unique take on it, and all he had were reinforcements, ergo 11 units compared to 6. SO UNIQUE AMIRITE?

Edited by Xenomata
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Both Legion and Berkut have GHBs that play very different from the others. Legion has reinforcements, while Berkut charges you immediately and splits up your party.

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33 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Who said 50? I never said 50, I said large.

Okay, so how about actually giving a number? Not to mention, you didn't answer any of my questions. Please do so.

 

33 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Battle Factory. Gives you 6 pokemon to choose from, you pick 3, and then you do battle. Once you finish the battle, you pick one of their pokemon to put on your own team. Now replace "pokemon" with "unit". Don't make assumptions about battle facilities, I've suffered every one of them.

Which means once one player has completed the challenge, everyone has completed the challenge because they can just use the same team.

"Rental teams" only work if the opponent is randomized, and that renders the meticulous positioning of enemy units in Grand Hero Battles pointless. Not to mention it renders the hard work of the player developing their units pointless as well.

 

33 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

No it doesn't. You can say any unit name, knowing their usually OP build, and there is a BS counter to them that the unit will walk right into without your telling them to stop.

You've completely missed the point. So let me phrase my point another way:

What part of picking a team to auto-battle with counts as "playing the game"?

 

33 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Poison, remove some HP every turn. Boost everyones Defense by 4. Start with only 75% of your maximum HP. All skills have -1 cooldown at start of battle. Swap teams. Change win conditions. Disable special skills. Disable bonus skills on weapons. Stats cannot be altered. All units are treated as Infantry. I have more but I need to respond to the rest of this post.

I'm not seeing how any of those are any more interesting than what we already have or cannot be simulated by changing around enemy stats or skills. Some of these are also significantly less "fair" than just increasing enemy stats. You seemed to be a stickler to that just a few hours ago.

 

33 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I have trouble explaining the Battle Pike, but generally you leave the difficulty to random chance.

We basically already have that. It's called Tempest Trials.

 

33 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Triangle Adept 3 Axe Breaker 3 Blue Mage. On only one of two or three enemy units.

Blue mage. Lol.

Assuming you meant red mage, either you'd see this coming from someone posting the list of enemies somewhere or the game mode is running on random chance.

If the list of enemies is posted, you'd just do the same with some other character based on the enemies. Xander, Camus, Ryoma, Takumi, Reinhardt and other characters come to mind.

And if it's running on random chance, it's not a Grand Hero Battle anymore.

 

33 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

No healing between battles, and you need to purchase the ability to see the enemy team. Even if you pack a Reconcile healer, you still need to purchase the right to items (seals) and the right to power down or up the enemy for worse or better rewards.

We already have Tempest Trials. You can literally already do the latter half of that in a different form.

 

33 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

But said enemy usually doesn't have Fortify Cavalry, Ward Cavalry, access to defensive tiles, and win conditions requiring no deaths.

I have no idea what you're responding to. None of what you just mentioned has any relation to enemies healing passively on each turn. Passive healing means nothing if the enemy dies between heals, which tends to be what happens most of the time in this game unless the opponent has inflated stats.

 

33 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

What do you think natures are.

Something that simulates the randomness of growths in main-series Fire Emblem games, but still has predictability due to the fact that this is a gacha game and it would be unfair to prevent players from knowing until after they have finished leveling the unit up.

It's not shoehorned in if it actually works.

 

33 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Jesus you made responding to this harder than it needed to be.

My pleasure. *bows deeply*

 

33 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

It's the SAME extreme challenge every time. It's been the same every time so far. Legion had the most unique take on it, and all he had were reinforcements, ergo 11 units compared to 6.

It's also the SAME GAME MODE. If you want a new game mode, just spit it out and say you want a new game mode.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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32 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Jesus you made responding to this harder than it needed to be.

 

It's the SAME extreme challenge every time. It's been the same every time so far. Legion had the most unique take on it, and all he had were reinforcements, ergo 11 units compared to 6. SO UNIQUE AMIRITE?

What am I saying is, why bother with the extra challenge if the rewards aren't that different and you obviously are not having fun with it.

Its like complaining at a free entry buffet that this super spicy dish is TOO SPICY AND IT SHOULD BE CATERED TO ME AND TONED DOWN CUZ ITS SPICY despite... you having no obligation to eat from it, especially since its free.

 

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I feel kinda bad never being able to tackle these maps until after work and always feeling late to the party.

I beat Lunatic with Horse Emblem.

Horse Emblem failed me on Infernal, due to starting so far apart, mostly, so I managed to beat it with Bridelia, Reinhardt, and their back-up dancers Olivia and Azura.  Both Dancers had Wings of Mercy and Reinhardt had Reposition.  It was a bit close.  Berkut's Res was deceptively beefy, being able to take a Reinhardt to the face.

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3 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Berkut's Res was deceptively beefy, being able to take a Reinhardt to the face.

Ahaha. Yeah, that's what happens when he's got +10 Res from Water Boost and Berkut's Lance and a potential +6 Res from Fortify Cavalry.

Being able to tank a round of combat from my +10 Fae [+Atk] (Lightning Breath+, Triangle Adept 3)'s double attack on my player phase was impressive, even if he ended up surviving with only 1 HP.

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15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

My pleasure. *bows deeply*

 

It's also the SAME GAME MODE. If you want a new game mode, just spit it out and say you want a new game mode.

I'm not going to respond to it all at one, because screw that. But for reals, there are better places to discuss/argue/banter about the games content. I'd rather talk about Berkut and his Berkut-ness (TBH he just feels gimmicky with his base set) when in Berkutland.

But I did read it all, and I do have answers to it all. I'm just going to answer the last one with this: it is possible to have the SAME GAME MODE but with twists. Tempest Trials/Chain Challenge/Squad Assault should have proved that well enough.

If I want a new game mode but the same game, I could be playing Pokemon right now (in fact I am). I'm just also the weird kid who has a bajillion thoughts and "ideas" for what can be added to a game, despite having no developing or coding history, a vague understanding of balancing fun and difficulty, and too many thoughts at once.

8 minutes ago, Doof said:

What am I saying is, why bother with the extra challenge if the rewards aren't that different and you obviously are not having fun with it.

Its like complaining at a free entry buffet that this super spicy dish is TOO SPICY AND IT SHOULD BE CATERED TO ME AND TONED DOWN CUZ ITS SPICY despite... you having no obligation to eat from it, especially since its free.

 

I won't comment on the buffet thing (poor example for me anyways, I have a low spice tolerance), because my reasoning doesn't apply to buffets: the completionist in me. If I don't complete it, it eats away in me and I lose sleep over it. I'm still beating myself up over not getting Ursula, and I would have been devastated if I didn't complete the Alm/Celica battle in time (which I almost didn't). Alm/Celica only gave orbs as a reminder.

...I at least hope there aren't "buffet completionists" to my caliber...

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6 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I won't comment on the buffet thing (poor example for me anyways, I have a low spice tolerance), because my reasoning doesn't apply to buffets: the completionist in me. If I don't complete it, it eats away in me and I lose sleep over it. I'm still beating myself up over not getting Ursula, and I would have been devastated if I didn't complete the Alm/Celica battle in time (which I almost didn't). Alm/Celica only gave orbs as a reminder.

...I at least hope there aren't "buffet completionists" to my caliber...

Reruns exist. In a few weeks (Navarre's GHB map had a rerun like less than 2 weeks after its first run) to a couple months, you'd have another chance at clearing the Infernal map... that is, if you actually bother with trying to clear it. I couldn't clear Narcian's Hard map the first time it came around considering how ridiculous it was considering the timing of its release but later cleared it when it had a rerun. And, as been shown but the videos posted on sites like YouTube, clears are possible using only free units with no skill inheritance whatsoever.

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Personally, I think that Nintendo has been very fair about Inferno GHBs. The stats were never inflated to the point of insanity: Sure, you can have fort tiles and defense buffs, but the raw stats are always low enough for a low rarity team to beat---and, naturally, many team comps of high rarity. My GHB strategy is just: Pick the first team that's doing alright, pick the first strategy that's doing alright, and slowly improving it until it wins. The fact that my way works without spending too many stamina potions (the most I've spent is 3, I think, on the Legion GHB, I spent 1 on this one because I started with 30 stamina) means that Inferno GHBs are actually a little 'undertuned,' meaning lots of teams and strategies can beat them.

 

The challenge for this particular one is AI manipulation, because, if all the horses stay clumped together, they're going to buff each other and make combats difficult, since not many units can take multiple GHB enemies in one fight. (My Hector straight up dies if he gets double teamed, partly because of that extra lance cav giving Goad). Stat-wise, this one was actually quite fair: Berkut has the highest defense at like 35 or something, everyone else has sub 30. The green mage, IRRC, is fastest at 35, axe come next at 32, everyone else is sub 30.

 

This means: Enemies have high atk, low spd, high res, low def. Player phase physical units have no trouble dismantling them, and, unless your units are ridiculously frail, even glass cannons can counter-kill on enemy phase. Cordelia could take out the extra lance cav on enemy phase, for example---didn't end up using her for that, since Camus filled that slot better. She went top to gimp Berkut for free thanks to her Galeforce (and to trigger WoM on my other units).

Edited by DehNutCase
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23 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I feel kinda bad never being able to tackle these maps until after work and always feeling late to the party.

I beat Lunatic with Horse Emblem.

Horse Emblem failed me on Infernal, due to starting so far apart, mostly, so I managed to beat it with Bridelia, Reinhardt, and their back-up dancers Olivia and Azura.  Both Dancers had Wings of Mercy and Reinhardt had Reposition.  It was a bit close.  Berkut's Res was deceptively beefy, being able to take a Reinhardt to the face.

That's pretty much what I did, though I had Summer Tiki in place of Olivia. Reinhardt only real purpose was to kill the additional blue cavalier. Tiki took care of Berkut and Bridelia took care of the rest (51 Atk and 35 Spd on a ranged brave unit is busted.)

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

"Unfair" then must refer to a challenge that is insurmountable by players who have the resources expected of them, such as dodging Yian Garuga's beak slam, which has a start-up time faster than human reflexes.

 

Screw Yian Garuga. Did a quest with 3 Hyper monsters in MHgen earlier this week and the first on the list was Garuga. I think him being hyper sometimes made him slightly easier to predict because the added start-up and noise cue from hyper status, but for the non hyper attacks, his love of zero start-up moves was a real pain. Doesn't help that hitbox on the beak slam felt wonky, I swear I got hit despite being a meter away from the beak. 

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Probably not as good as others, since everyone are already beating Infernal and all of that, but I just had time to play and beat Lunatic

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2 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

But I did read it all, and I do have answers to it all. I'm just going to answer the last one with this: it is possible to have the SAME GAME MODE but with twists. Tempest Trials/Chain Challenge/Squad Assault should have proved that well enough.

Tempest Trials, Chain Challenge, and Squad Assault are actually the exact opposite of "the same game mode, but with twists". Those are "different game modes that are similar".

The only place in this game that actually has "the same game mode, but with twists," is story maps with its mix of objectives, but that's obviously excused by the fact that the story map game mode is not meant to group maps by a type of game play but to be a means of telling the story. Every other game mode has all of its maps following the same set of rules that the game mode has set out.

 

7 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

The fact that my way works without spending too many stamina potions (the most I've spend is 3, I think, on the Legion GHB, I spent 1 on this one because I started with 30 stamina) means that Inferno GHBs are actually a little 'undertuned,' meaning lots of teams and strategies can beat them.

That... actually makes a ton of sense. (Cue a difficulty higher than Infernal.)

 

6 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

I think him being hyper sometimes made him slightly easier to predict because the added start-up and noise cue from hyper status,

Very much this. (Also Hyper Deviljho can't inflict defense down, which is super nice.) My sister plays with audio off (only hearing audio cues late through the video chat), and I have no idea how she does it.

 

7 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

Doesn't help that hitbox on the beak slam felt wonky, I swear I got hit despite being a meter away from the beak.

That's just Yian Garuga being made of bullshit. Its beak slam's hit box also extends above his head at the start, and its tail spin's hit box hits (and poisons) a meter or two above his tail and maybe a meter or so past where it connects with its body (this coming from an Aerial Insect Glaive main).

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Beat Lunatic, will save Hard and Infernal when I'm less strapped for stamina in a few days, just wanted a copy of him to check out. Cool that he comes with a cav skill. I'm tired of sending Eliwoods to the slaughter.

Edited by Gustavos
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41 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I'm just going to answer the last one with this: it is possible to have the SAME GAME MODE but with twists. Tempest Trials/Chain Challenge/Squad Assault should have proved that well enough.

If I want a new game mode but the same game, I could be playing Pokemon right now (in fact I am). I'm just also the weird kid who has a bajillion thoughts and "ideas" for what can be added to a game, despite having no developing or coding history, a vague understanding of balancing fun and difficulty, and too many thoughts at once.

"New game mode but the same game" is Tempest Trials vs Story Maps vs Training Tower vs Special Maps. GHBs aren't even a full game mode: they're a subset of Special Maps, like how Chain Challenge and Squad Assault are subsets of Story Maps.

All Chain Challenges are challenges where you use your characters to make some number of teams and use them to take on some number of non-randomized, consecutive Story Map battles. It doesn't make sense for a Chain Challenge to do something outside of those criteria. Anything outside of that criteria belongs under a different classification.

All GHBs are special maps where you use a team of four characters to take on a single map where you face the GHB character and their lackeys and have to keep all your characters alive to win, then recruit the GHB character upon completion. Just like with Chain Challenges, it doesn't make sense to do something different and call it a GHB. And in fact the definition of a GHB has already been changing. They've revised how difficulty levels work twice, and both Legion and Berkut have had major changes from how previous GHBs worked. We've also started to get Bond Hero Battles, which are sort of like GHBs but different.

Edited by Othin
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I'm actually glad for this GHB since it gave me a reason to do something other than the Tempest Trials for a change. (only 12k points left until I get all the rewards)

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Very much this. (Also Hyper Deviljho can't inflict defense down, which is super nice.) My sister plays with audio off (only hearing audio cues late through the video chat), and I have no idea how she does it.

 

That's just Yian Garuga being made of bullshit. Its beak slam's hit box also extends above his head at the start, and its tail spin's hit box hits (and poisons) a meter or two above his tail and maybe a meter or so past where it connects with its body (this coming from an Aerial Insect Glaive main).

The added start-up helps with avoiding, but gog helps you if you get hit by it. Had to face a Hyper Ceanataur earlier and I forgot about his extended range when angered and lost 3/4 of my health. And I often play without sound as well(especially against Deviants. I can't stand their theme), the visual cues are good enough for me most of the time.

I guess that's why I kept getting poisoned when I first tried that quest with Aerial Dual Blades.(I then went to Adept DBs, but the lack of start-up made it really hard to actually get adept evades, so I went back to Aerial DBs, but this time with the fully upgraded Deviant Lagombi set.) I keep seeing people complaining about the Plesioth's hip check, but while the Plesioth has plenty of BS (that damn tail spin has so much range), I feel like I can anticipate his moves most of the time and I barely get hit by the dreaded hip check.

 

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Beat Infernal with Nino, Olivia, Camus and Ike. Camus didn’t end up doing anything except at one point helping Ike move around with Repo.

I had to give QP to Nino so she could ORKO Berkut; and Olivia had the Fortify Res Seal to give her a little more might. Classic Fury/+speed IV build on Nino, with Draconic Aura (with Moonbow she doesn’t need QP I suppose but maybe it doesn’t kill Berkut? Idk)

Anyway Nino and Olivia start south of the map. Nino kills the bonus blue horseman, Olivia dances her and Nino draws her back to the east. Ike and Camus stay out of range meanwhile.

Second turn Nino kills Berkut (thanks to QP). Olivia dances her, and she starts on the Bow Cavalry, leaving that asshole at 1 HP. BUT i used Camus to repo Ike so he’s in range to kill him. The rest of the cavalry went north trying to attack Ike and Camus so nobody’s left in their range.

I think I spent a couple of turns rearranging my army around the south-east defensive tile, Ike first, in order to welcome the rest of the army.and at this point it should be fairly easy

Edited by salinea
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I cant believe that Ursula and Xanders Granis Shield became usefull one day for me. I have to say this Infernal Battle was well thought, Horse-Emblem Team was basicly useless in this one, because regrouping was nearly impossible without getting killed

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4 hours ago, BANRYU said:

JFC Berkut's shit is hard. Like, damn dude, take some freakin' stool softener or somethin christ.

tumblr_otayztUNUG1shnqb4o1_540.png

Help .-.

(not pictured: Also have a mediocre-IV'd Klein and a -Atk Olwen, don't imagine they'll be doing much but hey JIC)

OKAY. I managed to do it with Titania, Olivia, Tharja, and Nino! That wasn't TOO bad actually just kinda finicky to get the AI to act in a manageable fashion. 

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