Revival of Mafia Mafia- Day 3

[Prims]

I can't tell you why I voted Shin over Zeonth, really. If I had known Shin was going to be away I probably wouldn't have.

When I say Gaius isn't getting involved with the Izhuark wagon I mean he's calling out the people on it but not voting either of them. The way he called out Cam specifically bugs me because it's not really defending Izhuark or attacking Cam, it's just complaining and looks like potential padding. @Gaius: what is your actual read on Cam? Also, I take issue with presenting my Shin vote as a "lazy push" because it wasn't even a push in the first place; it was a "I don't think anything else is more worth voting" vote. As for why I kept the vote instead of looking at the SB/Paper interactions, I did look at those interactions and didn't find either of them scummy for it.

Agreeing with SB about Cam's Izhuark push; this post looks like he's not very confident in the Izhuark vote and is using the "I may have forgotten my vote but I don't like the reactions" approach to stay on the wagon. I'm actually not the biggest fan of Cam's interactions with Izhuark in general because it could easily be scum browbeating a townie who's likely to get defensive and dig a deeper hole for themself. As is, I'm wary of the possibility he's scum using his spammy posting style as a smokescreen.
##Unvote
##Vote: Cam

Cam, what players do you think are worth lynching today other than Izhuark?

[BBM]

Cam's opinions don't feel like a natural progression, because the change in his explanations are all about his original reasons. It's not "first I found him scumny for X and now I find him scummy for Y". It's like he voted Izhuark, was asked to explain it, and then changed the reasoning to something totally different and then also added reactions to it to justify keeping his vote there.

Phoneposting today so my posts might be spammy

[Shin]

Now, I'm looking through RVS, and my SHINanigans have done exactly what I've hoped. Get me attenSHIN.

I'm looking at the Prims on me, and there's a few possible explanations for it. However, I think it's pretty reasonable to question why I "knew" and it's pretty much the only sensible thing that someone could pick up on from my post. Something was going to trigger a wagon, but that didn't really seem like his intent. Fun fact: My guess about there being three scum was an ASSPULL that fit with my 666 joke. I can't actually take much issue with the rest of the wagon, it's more its critics that I'm interested in.

Cam and Paper are BORING, I don't really see any meaningfulness in their interaction. Paper does seem to be throwing his vote around like an alcoholic snail who's late for work with his vote on SB, but Izhuark's vote on Paper himself feels really padded. Almost like a parent who bought a really small birthday present for their child but put it in a big box to make it seem better. Scum wouldn't hammer someone at L-1 during RVS, but blending in with the rest of town is very much on their agenda. Scum could benefit from both voting me and for not doing so, so it's not really alignment indicative. I dislike the end of discussion part, it comes across as trying to avoid the conversation. 

Also, correctSHIN. I'm ED1 wagon bait more than mislynch! 

Also, Cam is a jerk and stole the points I was going to make before I posted them, true story people. Boron's vote on Izhuark kinda follows the same logic, but I feel like it's worded in a way which makes it feel more like independent thoughts coming to the same conclusion rather than echoing. 

My bro Refa brings VALID POINTS, and I'm already getting town vibes from him - which is bad because Refa's always scum and I end up losing horribly because I realise that he's scum right at the end or even after the game. Bro, what would BBM gain from swapping from Cam to SB other than creating another case for display as scum? I mean, that might be the conclusion you came to but it doesn't seem like much for a simple switch, unless you think that's bad compared to Izhuark's posts which make me SAD from reading them.

Gaius, is Prims' push on me really the worst thing you can see? I've already given my thoughts on it above, but I'm struggling to see how it's bad since it came so early on. I mean,I guessed and I said as much, so I have no reason to disbelieve Prims solely on his claim. Then Prims steals my CASE I was probably going to make for Gaius, what a JERK.

To be fair, I'm really confused abotu Izhuark's priorities. There's nothing wrong with defending yourself, but when most of your content involves around trying to justify one's points, and then trying to shut down discussion to "move on", it doesn't look good. From what Izhuark's posted, I don't really see any sort of priorities other than "Paper might be bad, but I'm trying to make sense". He's not really trying to form any other real cases, so far he's just soft-pushing a few people. 

#RefastealsallthepointsIwasgoingtomake

Also, neat I'm still voting for myself!

##Unvote

I disagree with SB's Cam vote, I think Cam was making a JOKE rather than actually not knowing why he was pushing Izhuark, I fully get the suspicion on Gaius, but I'm struggling to see how you've come to the "scum trying to look consistent" on Cam. However, I can totally get Prims' "Cam isn't doing much other than pressuring Izhuark.".

Also Eli and Zeonth should EXIST.

##Vote: Lord Gaius

The game hasn't been particularly eventful, but the minimalist input from Gaius makes me SAD. His reason for voting Prims feels really late and unless he's literally posting as he reads (which doesn't appear likely), he's not really paid much attention to much of the game other than what he's been directly involved in.

Gaius > Izhuark > SB > Cam

 

 

 

[BBM]

Eh I think Gaius's Prims vote is fine but his Izhuark wagon analysis feels like white knighting. Even classifying it as a 'wagon' was kind of weird because there were just two votes. The point that he's only really talked about stuff that he's directly involved with is good too.

I'd probably go Cam > Gaius atm. I feel like Izhuark is town and won't vote him but I can't say I believe in it strongly enough to defend against his lynch. He needs to come back though.

Shin what is scummy about SB's case on Cam even if you disagree with it? You seem to agree with the rest of his points. Also why do you think Cam is scummy?

[Izhuark]

Okay, just posting this to say that i'm reading the whole thread again and will post afterward if i find something better.  If i don't i will make a list post to sort my thoughts before making a case. If anybody as questions (or if i forgot any) in the meantime don't hesitate to ask me.

[Sunwoo]

To expand on my thoughts on Lord Gaius, I get the feeling that he's kind of going for the "easy" cases if that makes any sense at all? His initial vote on Prims for Prims' vote on Shin seems kind of weak considering that he had opinions on other things that were more substantive. His hard defending of the Izuhark wagon isn't weird in itself, but his only real comment about people on that wagon is that he'd probably be voting me if he weren't voting Prims, but I don't believe he explained why I'm voteworthy. That he criticizes the wagon pretty heavily to the point where he says, "yes I am defending Izuhark" but isn't pushing anyone actually on that wagon and instead goes after an easy Prims vote rubs me the wrong way.

I'm not sure I understand the sudden suspicion on Cam, I didn't have too much of a problem with his posts when I read through them. I'll go read through them again, but I didn't get anything bad from here.

Paperblade feels a bit ... passive, but I think he was always a bit passive during D1 regardless of alignment? I'm not finding him scummy yet, but I think that I want to pay more attention to him. Shin's post is fine (although I do want to continue seeing more posts from him) and I don't have a problem with Prims, even if I can't say I agree with his Cam vote right now.

Izuhark > Lord Gaius right now, because Izuhark hasn't done anything to make me feel better, and his whole "vote Paperblade but I don't want to lynch him and it wasn't a case on him" thing without actually giving a case or reads on anyone else is really not okay to me.

[Izhuark]

On 16/07/2017 at 11:21 PM, Paperblade said:

It's opportunistic because Shin has been mislynch bait in the past and it looked to me like you were trying to put pressure on someone whose reaction isn't always going to be the townies

I still really don't like this argument from paperblade why shouldn't Shin ve suspected, i know past meta can be important but we shouldn't be suspicious for pressuring a player known for being mislynch.

22 hours ago, CT075 said:

this is not a good reason

Taking this post apart from the discussion i find this post really indicative of how cam at that time tried to shut off my arguments while only reading half of them. This is not scummy in itself but added to the fact he pictured me as scummy for wanting to cut a discussion short is at best incoherent at worst trying to frame me.

16 hours ago, CT075 said:

 

Can't remove this quote for some reason. Thank SF.

16 hours ago, CT075 said:

all that being said, i'm no longer really sure why i voted izhu in the first place. his reactions to it, though, i think are worth keeping track of (i don't think i'm gonna move my vote yet)

Okay without even talking about the "i don't remember why i voted part", wich talk for itself, what trigger me the most is his "worth keeping track" while i'm not the one to say if i should be i think that in general it is a good excuse for scum to say there are keeping an eye on someone to hide their agenda while still seeming coherent in their reads when they don't have any.

15 hours ago, CT075 said:

clarification: what i'm reading is literally "cam waffled/reversed his opinion which is 'a little off' but not scummy"

like, what does 'a little off' mean, then? that's just an opening to say literally anything about it later

Little off means scummy but not enough to be a read. I thought it would be clear, sorry if it was not.

14 hours ago, CT075 said:

I actually dislike this point more on a second pass; i'm not sure why they're not necessarily scummy on their own but scummy in tandem -- why would scum!bbm need to swap off sb at all? his case on me is fine, honestly, but i don't see why scum!BBM would need to suddenly conjure that up. the "why didn't you do that at the time" feels weak to me because nobody else was really saying anything else about me. were you thinking that bbm was swapping off his buddy (or distancing from a town wagon)?

I feel like the first part of this post is a whole lot of nothing. What is the point of talking what Scum!BBM would need to do ? If it serve they need scums can do it. Sure it not really alignment indicative but it doesn't make refa's case weaker he even said it was not said it wasn't scummy into itself just bothering him because he missed bbm explenation.

14 hours ago, CT075 said:

also not going to bother continuing to justify my initial izhuark vote; bbm's more or less right in that i changed my reasons and i'm not really sure about the original vote myself

I understand that he may don't understand why you voted me in the first place and now have other reasons to keep his vote but that kind of reasoning can easily hide scum intentions, i don't think there are such things as vote that should not be discussed in mafia even early ones.

After reading the thread i must agree with BBM and Prims that Cam is incoherent at best and in all case incoherence is one of the best way to justify normally scummy actions. And the more and more i try to make sense of it the more it seem to boil down to the second option especially the "not going to bother continuing my initial Izhuark vote."

##unvote

##vote : Cam

Most other people are either not posting enough for now or content was either null or town. If someone is interested in a listpost or my opinion on other cases don't hesitate to ask, it just seems the most tangible one to me.

[Izhuark]

"That he may don't know why he voted me"*

[Refa]

@Magnificence Incarnate Are you going to announce when people are going to be gone for a while?   I don't want to be voting someone who isn't there.

8 hours ago, Paperblade said:

To be honest I felt like Prims was just giving a reaction test to Shin, and it feels weird for Prims to later add these other details to his reads which just make him look worse if he's mafia. 

Did Gaius actually post why he was suspicious of Boron? I can't find it. It's hard for me to get a grasp on his reads, which is Not Good

My issues is that it doesn't make sense for Prims to reaction test Shin in such a way.  He knows that Shin won't give a fuck, and it'd be much better to do a reaction test on Zeonth, who's a newer player anyways.

No, he just posted his issues with the wagon (which had Boron on it).  Didn't pay attention to it before, but it's my biggest issue with him (still not bothered by his initial posts, get at me).  Really wanted to see if he'd make a list of reads elaborating on his thoughts (since the impression I got was that his initial posts were happening while he was reading through the thread), but that hasn't happened yet. /shrug  None of his followup posts have improved my read on him.

5 hours ago, BBM said:

Cam's opinions don't feel like a natural progression, because the change in his explanations are all about his original reasons. It's not "first I found him scumny for X and now I find him scummy for Y". It's like he voted Izhuark, was asked to explain it, and then changed the reasoning to something totally different and then also added reactions to it to justify keeping his vote there.

Phoneposting today so my posts might be spammy

Assuming this is a reply to me because I'm egotistical like that.  I really wish there were ISO's now...

-Reading back, I don't get why Cam voted Paperblade over BBM.  BBM was the one who voted SB, not Paper. PEdit: Apparently he thought Paper voted SB, okay.  No problem here.

-I don't have any other issues with his RVS play.

-Cam's initial Izhuark vote is based on how Izhuark voting Paper despite Paper doing the same thing as SB did (and Izhuark IS defending SB here), which reads as hypocritical to him.  I'm fine with this by itself.

-While he mentions he's not sure why he scumread Izhuark in the first place, I don't believe he contradicted his previous scumread in any of his previous posts.  From my understanding, his reasoning changed from his initial one (listed above) to Izhuark's reactions.  Personally, I think it's a weak scumread but 1) look at who the fuck is talking and 2) I'm not seeing how Cam is being inconsistent.

Hot take: Not bothered by Cam anymore.  I'm not townreading him (most of his opinions are centered on Izhuark, which makes it hard for me to have a better read on him), but I at least wouldn't vote him.

[Refa]

1 minute ago, Refa said:

No, he just posted his issues with the wagon (which had Boron on it).  Didn't pay attention to it before, but it's my biggest issue with him (still not bothered by his initial posts besides that, get at me).

Not being able to edit is suffering.  But yeah, the way that Gaius is handling his issues with Boron does bother me.  Nothing else in his initial posts do, though.

[CT075]

bbm thinks i'm inconsistent because i said something different when asked "why i originally voted izhu" which is true

[CT075]

8 hours ago, Prims said:

Cam, what players do you think are worth lynching today other than Izhuark?

in general i feel like paperblade hasn't really been actively scumhunting as much as defending people. i'm also not a huge fan of gaius' prims vote now that i think about it, but i couldn't tell you why.

[CT075]

oh yeah i would also not be opposed to a cam lynch

[CT075]

that guy is a fucker who said he would play mafia and actually can't

[SB.]

8 hours ago, Shin said:

I am the SHIN. I told Marth that I'd be away for like a day on a magical trip to the NORTH (where nobody's accents are remotely understandable). Give me some time to CATCH UP and read. I'm gonna RAGE because there's no isos, stoopid modern SF.

fuck yoouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Paper, what about Cam's progression of opinions if natural? It felt to me like he really jmped from point a to point B between sessions without a clear path betwen the two?

after spending 3 hours ovice chatting with shin i cant help but read his posts actually in his voice and its really fucking weridkd. Not a huge fan of the post overally but the point he makes on gaius at the end is actually interesting enough that i think im fnid with him. will look over when i wake up tomorrow though because i dont really get why he lowkey hates me and cam/

izhuarks' cam case makes my head hurt by that might just be aeme

CUT BY CAM what are youding what

[CT075]

Mafia Was A Mistake

[CT075]

actual question to people voting me: do people think that others defending me would be my scumbuddies trying to save me? or (at least from my view) scum potentially distancing themselves?

[CT075]

Oh Yeah Shin's Defense Doesn't Really Make Sense But His Stuff Seems Otherwise Okay?

[SB.]

i think working out associatives right now is pointless 

what do you think of gaius' stuff aside from his vote?

[Izhuark]

Yeah i think we should lynch mafia out of our existence.

[CT075]

izhuark's case seems to be entirely predicated on not liking that i insulted his coherence (ha ha look who's talking) and also that my initial vote on him was bad (It Was tm); would recommend looking into him after i flip town kkthx

1 hour ago, Izhuark said:

I feel like the first part of this post is a whole lot of nothing. What is the point of talking what Scum!BBM would need to do ? If it serve they need scums can do it. Sure it not really alignment indicative but it doesn't make refa's case weaker he even said it was not said it wasn't scummy into itself just bothering him because he missed bbm explenation.

...because that's the entire point of the game? how do you propose we catch scum, then? you can handwave literally anything with the excuse "scum can do whatever they need to"

if there is no visible reason for scum!bbm to do X, then the two reasonable explanations are "it is not a scum tell" (which is what refa said) or "it is scum playing badly" (and bbm is a Very Good Player so i assume that it's not that)

[SB.]

i'll lynch you out of existenc you pessimeit c fuck

[CT075]

3 minutes ago, SB. said:

i think working out associatives right now is pointless 

what do you think of gaius' stuff aside from his vote?

i am legitimately not going to bother defending myself because that's Lame but also because as a Totally Unbiased Third Party i agree with the majority of the cases on me

will talk about gaius after i read some more

[SB.]

i get that you're probably frustrated but as the only one who knows you're town you have to be the one who argues your corner

trying to defend yourself helps give a much clearer read on you which helps as town and even as maf who is under heavy susp i thinkt hyou have nothing to lose

[Izhuark]

The thing is that discussing what scum!BBM want to do is pointless since scum!BBM will do is best to seem town and avoid to seem balantly scum. What's more interesting and worth of scum reading is what town!BBM would not do. And even if he made a mistake Refa was on this line of thinking on his read wich i found producting. Taking the opposite reasoning to counter the former add nothing to the point imo because they search for totally different reads.