Revival of Mafia Mafia- Day 3

[CT075]

(what that originally said was "Prims was [the second person off my wagon and onto gaius along with BBM] which makes me less willing to buy the switch off me" but then went back to link that quote and it seemed fine to me again)

[Refa]

SF just ate my post.  How the fuck does SF still eat my posts even though it autosaves them?  Yeah, I really want an old version of my PREVIOUS post, thanks a lot.

[Sunwoo]

Fuck, I just saw something that's going to bum me out for most of the day ;/

3 hours ago, SB. said:

@Boron, why is Elieson a higher priority than Paper and what do you think of Refa? I think Eli said in his post that he was barely even beginning to catch up so him focusing in on ED1 content makes more sense than if he went after something later.

Voted Elieson over Paperblade because I feel like Paperblade's D1 activity is always a bit weaker as either alignment, and I was going to give him until mid-D2 to amaze me as town. But if he's subbing out I'll let his sub try to redeem his slot.

Didn't feel like going over Refa's D1, will do that later, but for his D2 ... I don't know, it just feels like he has a lack of conviction about it? Kind of passive and not really pushing a whole lot. If his entire case on Shin can be debunked with one missing quote, then how voteworthy was Shin to him to begin with kind of thing? So far, I'd say I don't like his D2 content very much.

I'm not actually reading Shin as scummy over the Cam vote. I don't agree with it and I think he's taking Cam's suspicion of me out of proportion, but it's obviously getting him negative attention and he's not backing off it, he's continuing to defend it. As scum, I would think he'd back off it for stop pushing it so strongly, since it is making people want to vote him. Cam's spamming is making me less wanting to read him, but I'll have to do it later.

SB, yours and Refa's interactions are starting to feel a bit weird to me. Don't ask me to explain what I mean by that, because without rereading it I can't explain it. And I'm not willing to reread the thread right now. I'll post more when I feel up to it.

[Refa]

Abridging my deleted post because I don't feel like rewriting the whole thing.

35 minutes ago, SB. said:

##Unvote
##Vote: Shin

I feel like Shin is being way too stubborn about this and get Cam's frustration. I actually thought that Shin pushing Cam coming into the day seemed town because I doubted that scum would want to immediately push that way based on how all interest seemed to have died out yesterday, but I kind of feel like he's just being almost too obstinate for this to be real? I don't think that he's legitimately addressing Cam's defense at all in a way that gives him a chance to change his opinion? 

Like, saying "town!Cam could prove himself" while true is a kind of ridiculous as a response when it feels like you're not actually evaluating his newer stuff and are just side-stepping arguments. There's nothing actually wrong with asking you to explain your lynch priority if he doesn't find it clear (I'm fairly sure others have too, so it's not like it was totally obvious).

Like, please explain how this is alignment relevant at all. How would Town!Cam react differently to Scum!Cam here and why? I actually have no idea where this logic is coming from.

I get that confirmation bias is a thing (and kind of thought that as an initial reaction) but it feels like this is going too far when Shin is not getting heated in these arguments at all. It looks like he's already reached his conclusion and THAT is why he isn't giving Cam the time of day instead of not thinking clearly because he's annoyed, upset, etc.

I'd sheep the middle two paragraphs, but I want to know 1) are there any specific examples that point to Shin being obstinate over confirmation bias besides him not getting heated (not trying to dismiss this point, I think it's good but) 2) has Shin ever gotten heated in an argument as scum, because I legitimately don't remember that being a thing.

28 minutes ago, SB. said:

I don't feel great about Prims overall, but what do you think the motive behind scum!Prims changing the wagons from Cam to Gaius D1, Refa? I have some thoughts on this but I kind of want a second opinion.

Real talk: I didn't take that into consideration at all when making my initial post.

On rereading, the votes for Gaius/Cam were 2/3 before Prims made the switch.  The only scum motive I can see from this switch is that Gaius would be significantly easier to push than Cam (he never really reconsiders his Gaius case after the vote, whereas he would continuously have to do so with a Cam vote), buuuut that's a stretch.  More realistically, I believe he just did it to support his Cam pressure vote.  As town, it'd be because his Cam vote was genuinely a pressure vote and as scum, it'd be so he could explain his weaker Cam vote later on...which would make it not very telling, which are my thoughts overall.

18 minutes ago, CT075 said:

WRT Prims I do actually buy him swapping to me to see my reaction. Prims was  but I'm less willing to buy the switch off me at the end of the phase. FMPOV, Prims was one of the primary drivers of my wagon and I don't think anybody would have questioned him staying on me.

Mid day reaction test seems suspect because he already had a solid case on Gaius.  I don't think his switch from you to Gaius was scummy, though.

[SB.]

@ the refa thing from last page (i dont want to quote it, does anyone really trust SF's reply box in the year 2k17?)

Hypocritical might not have been the right word, but it's like... you didn't have an awful lot of sway on D1 because you were pursuing a potato yourself, but it felt like that was what your most important content was all day.

I'm kinda seeing it in another light rereading while I'm less pressed for time though and I think your progression on Gaius in the early day flows very naturally which I missed the first time.

Also, tThe fact that Paper asked BBM a question about Izhuark and then completely ignored the answer is fucking weird. 

Every time I reread something in this game I feel like my opinion on it changes and I'm all over the place. Fuck mafia btw.

[SB.]

I don't think Shin gets heated as either alignment (which is just a personality thing), which is why I think he's deliberately not changing his opinion here. His posts are still very... Shin, as a kind of shitty way to describe it. He's still carefree and joking and there's nothing indicating that he's annoyed by this argument. I'll look over for quotes after I finish this post.

I softcleared Prims D1 because of
A.) the numbers claim (which I thought was a fakeclaim as a town PR, but after everything claimed today that seems Less Likely)
B.) thinking he would want to lay low and not shake up the wagons unless we're dealing with scum!Cam
but as I read back I got kind of more bothered by him, but I kind of forgot why already because I'm trying to do like everything at once, and I guess he could've just made the shift because he was concerned the wagon would swing away from Cam because he was actively defending himself or something. 

[j00]

27 minutes ago, SB. said:

I like you, j00.

thnx no prob, I'm less time zone impaired than Marth is

[Shin]

36 minutes ago, SB. said:

I get that confirmation bias is a thing (and kind of thought that as an initial reaction) but it feels like this is going too far when Shin is not getting heated in these arguments at all. It looks like he's already reached his conclusion and THAT is why he isn't giving Cam the time of day instead of not thinking clearly because he's annoyed, upset, etc.

It might be because I legitimately have no investment in this game other than having a good time, getting angry is for things that matter! On a personal level, if I get lynched it's a result of my play within a single game. "Town Cam should prove himself" should be read more as "If Cam presents cases and posts in a way that suggest he's town, then I'd be more likely to read him as town".

Cam's quote wall is really ugly to look at, especially with the PLEASANTRIES. Whilst I'd love to award him a PhD for the research he's done on my posting history in this game, I'm going to have to dock him points for manners! If there's issues that you think I haven't addressed, please put them into one post and I'll deal with them, your thesis is a little too unwieldy for me. You're too hung up on semantics, if Paper was a case you were going to make, why didn't you go for it instead of the wet fart that was Boron? That was only the basis of my suspicion, but the hostile response and the need to pick up on every linguistic nuance over substance is what's continued my read. 

Not-Cam content will follow shortly, I need a break and I'd love to see a capital letter or two.

 

 

 

[SB.]

13 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

SB, yours and Refa's interactions are starting to feel a bit weird to me. Don't ask me to explain what I mean by that, because without rereading it I can't explain it. And I'm not willing to reread the thread right now. I'll post more when I feel up to it.

tbh I kind of got the same feeling but I think it was because the thread briefly devolved into two separate arguments (me/Refa and Shin/Cam) for a bit with little input elsewhere which was kinda weird to read.

@the rest of your post though, do you think that Elieson typically has a stronger D1 than Paper?

I also don't think Shin was getting any negative attention for the majority of his push (up to this point) because outside of Cam I think I was the only one really challenging him that much. Refa was kind of on the fence.

[Sunwoo]

Fuck, I got distracted and forgot to finish my thought on Elieson.

I think that town!Elieson generally efforts more than scum!Elieson. Yeah, he was away at work for most of the day and only just got around to reading the thread, but I feel like town!Elieson would've at least tried to offer up more content on more recent things instead of basically getting to ED1 and calling it a day. As it stands, by the time he gives us his opinion on the Gaius-Izhuark-Cam-Boron debacle, his opinions will have been colored by Gaius's town flip and so it gives him leverage to look better, if you get what I mean.

Fair point on Shin. Although, since the rest of the game will read the thread and see the argument, I suppose "drawing attention and potential to look really scummy" might be a better way to phrase it.

I'll look through some of the more active people in the thread and update my reads, I just won't do it right now because I'm heading out and don't think I'm able to parse through all this text right now.

[Refa]

3 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Didn't feel like going over Refa's D1, will do that later, but for his D2 ... I don't know, it just feels like he has a lack of conviction about it? Kind of passive and not really pushing a whole lot. If his entire case on Shin can be debunked with one missing quote, then how voteworthy was Shin to him to begin with kind of thing? So far, I'd say I don't like his D2 content very much.

Where am I lacking conviction?  How am I being passive (this one bothers me more because I've been actively updating my reads and trying to engage with people more than I did on Day 1)?  Shin case was based off of the assumption that 1) he ignored Izhuark in his opening post, despite Izhuark being his strongest scumread on the previous day and 2) he didn't explain why Cam was scummier than Izhuark even after prodded.  If these things were true, he'd still be my vote right now.

5 minutes ago, SB. said:

@ the refa thing from last page (i dont want to quote it, does anyone really trust SF's reply box in the year 2k17?)

Hypocritical might not have been the right word, but it's like... you didn't have an awful lot of sway on D1 because you were pursuing a potato yourself, but it felt like that was what your most important content was all day.

I mean, that's true but at the same time it's like...there wasn't anything else for me to do at the time.  I can appreciate how from other's perspectives, I wasn't pushing any of the biggest posters which made me less relevant, but that's because none of them bothered me.

4 minutes ago, SB. said:

I don't think Shin gets heated as either alignment (which is just a personality thing), which is why I think he's deliberately not changing his opinion here. His posts are still very... Shin, as a kind of shitty way to describe it. He's still carefree and joking and there's nothing indicating that he's annoyed by this argument. I'll look over for quotes after I finish this post.

I softcleared Prims D1 because of
A.) the numbers claim (which I thought was a fakeclaim as a town PR, but after everything claimed today that seems Less Likely)
B.) thinking he would want to lay low and not shake up the wagons unless we're dealing with scum!Cam
but as I read back I got kind of more bothered by him, but I kind of forgot why already because I'm trying to do like everything at once, and I guess he could've just made the shift because he was concerned the wagon would swing away from Cam because he was actively defending himself or something. 

I'm confused here.  If Shin getting heated isn't expected as either alignment, why would you expect him to get annoyed during his argument with Cam?

A.) I read the Numbers claim as null, with the caveat that if Marth didn't give scum fakeclaims, then it'd probably be town (since he claimed it pretty early on before like half of the people posted).  I just have no idea how to prove said caveat, otherwise I would have done it by now.

B.) Not scumreading Cam, so I don't think this is the case.

[Shin]

Thanks SF, I really wanted a post from several hours ago instead of the post I'd written instead. I'm busy tomorrow but I'll do my best to deal with the ANGRY MOB lead by CAM tomorrow. Have fun, CHUMPS.

[SB.]

I get your opinion on the Eli thing now, but with how close to deadline it was I don't think it's crazy to think that he just actually ran out of time (especially if rl crops up) in a position where he didn't have to really commit much.
 

 

oh god what have i done

But uh I think this is a good example of what I mean. He doesn't fight the argument and just fights Cam.

[Refa]

FWIW, Elie has been on long enough to play EiMM (SB, you in particular should be able to verify this).  He definitely should have been able to 1) explain it (especially if he was unable to finish it due to RL issues) 2) make an actual post by now.

5 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Fuck, I got distracted and forgot to finish my thought on Elieson.

I think that town!Elieson generally efforts more than scum!Elieson. Yeah, he was away at work for most of the day and only just got around to reading the thread, but I feel like town!Elieson would've at least tried to offer up more content on more recent things instead of basically getting to ED1 and calling it a day. As it stands, by the time he gives us his opinion on the Gaius-Izhuark-Cam-Boron debacle, his opinions will have been colored by Gaius's town flip and so it gives him leverage to look better, if you get what I mean.

Agreed on this.

[Refa]

By it in the second sentence of that post, I was referring to Elie's deadline post.  Whoops.

[SB.]

 

2 minutes ago, Refa said:

FWIW, Elie has been on long enough to play EiMM (SB, you in particular should be able to verify this).  He definitely should have been able to 1) explain it (especially if he was unable to finish it due to RL issues) 2) make an actual post by now.

Oh. That's actually true, have not being paying attention to the Eimm stuff at all so I kinda forgot he was involved in it.

[Refa]

7 minutes ago, SB. said:

 

 

oh god what have i done

But uh I think this is a good example of what I mean. He doesn't fight the argument and just fights Cam.

Oh, I see what your point is now.  Fair enough.

[SB.]

9 minutes ago, Refa said:

I mean, that's true but at the same time it's like...there wasn't anything else for me to do at the time.  I can appreciate how from other's perspectives, I wasn't pushing any of the biggest posters which made me less relevant, but that's because none of them bothered me.

I'm confused here.  If Shin getting heated isn't expected as either alignment, why would you expect him to get annoyed during his argument with Cam?

A.) I read the Numbers claim as null, with the caveat that if Marth didn't give scum fakeclaims, then it'd probably be town (since he claimed it pretty early on before like half of the people posted).  I just have no idea how to prove said caveat, otherwise I would have done it by now.

B.) Not scumreading Cam, so I don't think this is the case.

Yeah dw about that, my opinion has changed a bit on it now so it doesn't bother me right now.

Maybe I'm not explaining this part well? I don't expect him to be annoyed, but that's generally why a townie would become so sure of themselves to the point that their case is slightly non-nonsensical, and I don't see a sign of that in Shin's posts. The only other I could really think of would be something role related, and if Shin has a guilty on Cam I'm more than willing to eat my words.

I think Numbers as a role in a game like this is ??? with vanillas already existing. Maybe it's real, but it also seems like the kind of gambit Prims would be willing to pull (remember Mystery 2 where he fakeclaimed Miller? As town). And I don't really suspect Cam either but I definitely felt less good about things after looking at it again.

Feeling kiiiind of terrible so I don't want to tackle any more of that tonight though, just gonna get some sleep.

[CT075]

48 minutes ago, Shin said:

if Paper was a case you were going to make, why didn't you go for it instead of the wet fart that was Boron?

i was never going to make a case on paper, that's ridiculous. i don't even know what your point is, "you didn't scumread paperblade even though you would have gotten less flak for it"???

[CT075]

52 minutes ago, Shin said:

and the need to pick up on every linguistic nuance over substance

i also don't get this; you've been waving off all my attempts to defend myself as "semantic nitpicking" only to stick to, somehow, the fact that "you never claimed i started a wagon on boron" (if that isn't a nitpick on semantic wording, i don' tknow what is) and "i chose to case boron instead of paperblade" (???) and yet somehow i'm scummy for getting frustrated at this?

[Prims]

While I don't know what's happening in EiMM, the Paper sub request doesn't really change my opinion on the slot (demotivated scum is a thing) and if anything I think it's more likely to come from mafia at this point but I'm not sure how to articulate why. I guess it's because it happened in response to pressure on him? Town in a bad headspace would want to sub out if outside forces are interfering with their scumhunting (eg back on D1), but scum in the same situation would want be more inclined to sub out if they can't properly defend themself against a wagon (right now).

RE: Refa's case: I've felt better about Cam since his post-spam so I don't know what you expect. I don't really want to lynch him today.

Elie dropped off the face of the earth again so I guess I'll be voting there if I have to vote a wagon that isn't me. Not sure how I feel about the Shin cases yet. Need to re-read him. TBH I want to just lynch the Paper slot and not have to worry about a sub.

[Prims]

Refa posts a lynch priority
Refa votes me over Elie despite Elie being higher up in his lynch priority

:thinking:
This bugs me because I can see scum!Refa being concerned he'd get flak if he jumped on the Elie wagon at that point in the day without Elie doing anything. It's weird though because Elie was his main suspicion on D1. Normally I could see this being a pressure vote on me but well if he would do that as town then he shouldn't really be voting me LMAO

[Prims]

SB's Shin case is actually pretty good. I don't have anything to add, but I'm not opposed to that lynch. Would like to see Shin's upcoming non-Cam content; that will probably help me get a better feel for that slot.

We should really just lynch the Paperblade slot today. though I don't think his excuse is necessarily invalid but the situation making him sub out only in response to votes on him is scummy.

@Elieson get the fuck in here and also vote paper with me

[Prims]

EBWOP: "We should really just lynch the Paperblade slot today though. I don't think his excuse is necessarily invalid but the situation making him sub out only in response to votes on him is scummy."

[Prims]

2 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Fuck, I got distracted and forgot to finish my thought on Elieson.

I think that town!Elieson generally efforts more than scum!Elieson. Yeah, he was away at work for most of the day and only just got around to reading the thread, but I feel like town!Elieson would've at least tried to offer up more content on more recent things instead of basically getting to ED1 and calling it a day. As it stands, by the time he gives us his opinion on the Gaius-Izhuark-Cam-Boron debacle, his opinions will have been colored by Gaius's town flip and so it gives him leverage to look better, if you get what I mean.

While I said I'd vote the wagon just to get rid of the inactive, his play this game reminds me more of Flaming Hot from Volcanic than anything. Which is unfortunate because I don't like to remember hosting Volcanic.