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Walrein, Jav, and Jiac's EIMMstravaganza - Game Thread (Game Over)

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TBH if people want to host EIMM games as functional multifaction games they should have to take up spots on the OC queue. the way i've always seen eimm done until SF was just a fun filler game between actual games of mafia and if people are writing walls of text about game drama then something's not being done right

not that the queues are functional right now laffo

Edited by Prims

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Oh yeah, my game is still going on, but, it would probably be better to check with people before hosting an EIMM. Was planning on hosting the NOC game after the last game ended but Walrein decided to host one at the same time, kinda caused some inconvenience.

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38 minutes ago, Prims said:

TBH if people want to host EIMM games as functional multifaction games they should have to take up spots on the OC queue. the way i've always seen eimm done until SF was just a fun filler game between actual games of mafia and if people are writing walls of text about game drama then something's not being done right

not that the queues are functional right now laffo

Would say there's quite a difference between this and a game with real factions. Different dynamic when you know your team is on your side and you don't have to recruit them

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yeah, fair. I just think they should go on a queue if people are going to take them this seriously rather than as fun filler games. It's very frustrating to see them start interfering with people's play in other mafia games.

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2 minutes ago, Prims said:

yeah, fair. I just think they should go on a queue if people are going to take them this seriously rather than as fun filler games. It's very frustrating to see them start interfering with people's play in other mafia games.

THIS. SERIOUSLY.

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1 minute ago, Prims said:

yeah, fair. I just think they should go on a queue if people are going to take them this seriously rather than as fun filler games. It's very frustrating to see them start interfering with people's play in other mafia games.

Seems fair, not disagreeing with the queue part of your post

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I don't think there's a problem with how EiMM has evolved from silly filler to a serious multifaction-esque game. I don't like it personally but that's fine. It's pretty clear that the majority of people active in the mafia forum are more interested in this form of EiMM than traditional NOC or even traditional OC. We'll see how signups for Rein's game go, but Marth's game is the first NOC game in about a year I think, and it took a lot of planning and people coming out of pseudo-retirement to fill it.

I don't know everything that happened in this game specifically but at least some of it is going to happen in any game that people care about and other parts seem like a really unfortunate one-time event that won't happen again. As Marth alluded to, putting in only one winner would remove a core part of what people enjoy about it- making their own teams. Maybe you could run it as a multifaction where people get to choose their teams when they sign up?

As for having a queue for it- sure that's probably a good way to formalize it, but the community is kind of doing it by themselves anyways? Not like there are multiple EiMMs running at the same time. Not really sure what the queue would accomplish. I know Boron and Prims are annoyed that it interfered with Marth's game, but it would be on a different queue so it would still run simultaneously as any other small NOC games (and we don't have the playerbase to fill a large). Putting them on the same queue would actually hurt the chances of another NOC occurring because NOCs are probably only going to be able to fill at specific times by coordinating them as special events.

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It's also pretty disrespectful to Marth to say that you'll join his game and then prioritize a different game to the point where it's affecting your play in his game. He was pretty mad about that too.

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14 minutes ago, BBM said:

I don't know everything that happened in this game specifically but at least some of it is going to happen in any game that people care about and other parts seem like a really unfortunate one-time event that won't happen again. As Marth alluded to, putting in only one winner would remove a core part of what people enjoy about it- making their own teams.

Yeah, you may be right about this. I still think that signing up for a traditional mafia game only to prioritize EiMM over it is a very shitty attitude though because the other players in a traditional mafia game are bound to you by win condition. The same does not apply to EiMM, typically.

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It is disrespectful, but it's on the player to better manage their time, and not sign up if they can't. I agree that players should prioritize other games where they're part of a team bound by wincon, but again it's ultimately up to them. And just because there's no formal bond doesn't mean that people don't care about the outcome just as much and won't care if someone they're teaming with is dogging it.

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That being said, I'd like to suggest reins oc game to the people who played in this game. There is less betrayal but more planning and your chances of winning are more reasonable. You'll probably be less salty about losing.

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2 hours ago, BBM said:

As for having a queue for it- sure that's probably a good way to formalize it, but the community is kind of doing it by themselves anyways? Not like there are multiple EiMMs running at the same time. Not really sure what the queue would accomplish. I know Boron and Prims are annoyed that it interfered with Marth's game, but it would be on a different queue so it would still run simultaneously as any other small NOC games (and we don't have the playerbase to fill a large). Putting them on the same queue would actually hurt the chances of another NOC occurring because NOCs are probably only going to be able to fill at specific times by coordinating them as special events.

Well, it depends on how it's done. If EIMMs are the main attraction these days, you're right that if you pit them against each other straight-up it'll hurt the other games. But in that case you could also just suspend EIMMs while (N)OC games are going on. It's not like activity in this subforum is so high anymore that people can't live without shooting each other in the face for two weeks even if they don't like playing the traditional styles.

As for the rest of what happened, I don't know all the details, so I don't feel comfortable commenting on any specifics at this point. Just in general, however, there are two things I'd like to add:

  1. Please do remember that this is ultimately a game (and this applies to NOC and OC too, so while I understand that it can be annoying for other players if someone flakes in them, try to stay relaxed about it, especially if it's an exception for that person rather than the rule; it's not the end of the world). And while it is a social game like Mitsuki said, that's still a game regardless. So while I second her request that all players are mindful, that goes for everyone involved. On the one hand don't hit below the belt, on the other hand keep in mind that almost everything said and done in this environment concerns you as a player (often in just one specific game) rather than you as a person. Most of you know each other well enough by this point that you shouldn't severely worsen your relationships over this.
  2. To pick up on what Prims and Marth said, maybe it is time to sit down and have a proper talk about the rules. From what I recall the current ones more or less evolved naturally as games became more frequent, but that doesn't mean they're really optimal. As it stands, exactly three people can win with the standard win condition, so as soon as a fourth person comes into play, it's likely someone will be betrayed. Right now, that's a fact you need to accept when you sign up for one of these. If that's an issue for too many people, it's necessary to sit down and have a proper discussion about this in which as many interested parties as possible should come together to say what they really like about these games and what they really dislike and then hopefully come to an agreement to reconcile as many of those views as possible (please make a separate thread for that though, so it doesn't get lost).

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Having never played EiMM as anything but a filler jokegame, I think a problem with taking it too seriously is that the format is random inbalanced role madness and as such still made as a filler jokegame. It was never designed as something for people to get very invested in.

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idk, last I checked a lot of hosts at least try to make things semi-balanced.

I might just be knee-jerk biased because it comes up a lot (moreso in the past) in the community I am still active in, but "don't take it so seriously, it was never intended as more than a casual game" is a pointless argument to make; same goes for arguments that the games should go back to how they used to be (NOC, etc.). The way these games are (expected to be) run now is to have some semblance of skill-based competitive balance, largely based around OC coordination and manipulation, and this is what appeals to many of the players.

The issue with taking it too personally isn't anything to do with balance, but rather with the structure of the game necessarily leading to betrayals and lies and whatnot. If you take all that personally, you're guaranteed to get burned, and that's more or less that.

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Me Paper and Euklyd are going to be running the EiMM queue, as well as other multifaction games. I think it's kind of rude to people who come here to only play EiMM as someone who (at least used to) do both NOC and EiMM. Just because you're of the opinion the game is less strategic and fillery doesn't mean you have to ruin someone else's fun. Yes things got toxic and out of hand here, but all players in this game have talked things out heavily, and we've created a more structured system for running/maintaining games now. NOC games have gotten out of hand, but those are considered "serious" by the old playerbase so it's fine. These "jokegames" may have evolved into more serious games and that's ok too. 

I think I saw Kaoz (or someone else) say he's gonna revive the regular NOC/OC games (like Rein's which yall should totally join, it'll be fun), so no reason to butt heads over this anyway, fan's of one, the other, or both, can just pick what they want to sign up for.

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16 hours ago, Prims said:

i didnt read this shit but seems like this is why eimm games should be NOC

I think it's a bit disingenuous to imply that drama is somehow unique to EIMM or OC. There's been plenty of drama in the past with NOC, including stuff which got mods involved. I could probably go find a dozen instances over the years of people losing their shit at each other over NOC games.

The fact is that as long as there is more than one person involved, there will inevitably be conflict and drama.

Edited by Paperblade

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Also running NOC and EIMM at the same time is probably a bad idea for future games because of how uneven the sizes of the playerbases are. 

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3 minutes ago, Paperblade said:

I think it's a bit disingenuous to imply that drama is somehow unique to EIMM or OC. There's been plenty of drama in the past with NOC, including stuff which got mods involved. I could probably go find a dozen instances over the years of people losing their shit at each other over NOC games.

IT's a different kind of drama. in OC (EiMM), half of the drama is behind the scenes and usually the majority of the players don't even know what's going on, before it surfaces. in NOC, it's right out in the open.

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7 minutes ago, Elieson said:

IT's a different kind of drama. in OC (EiMM), half of the drama is behind the scenes and usually the majority of the players don't even know what's going on, before it surfaces. in NOC, it's right out in the open.

I'm very well aware of the drama from this EIMM

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Just now, Paperblade said:

I'm very well aware of the drama from this EIMM

I'm 95% sure that Kaoz had no idea what was going on though, until everyone just ended the game

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Just now, Elieson said:

I'm 95% sure that Kaoz had no idea what was going on though, until everyone just ended the game

why'd you quote me then 

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