Should IS stop using archetypes?

[Magical Glace]

1 hour ago, Just call me AL said:

Not every Jagen is a Great Knight or a Paladin. Dagdar's a Warrior, Sothe's a Rogue, and Jakob/Felicia's a Butler/Maid.

I don't think Jakob/Felicia really count as Jagens.  Their stats and rate of EXP gain are on the level of unpromoted units and they get extra levels to compensate for this.  

The only thing I'd consider really Jagen-ish about them is the very early access to advanced skills (Live to Serve and Tomebreaker in particular since they get that from their default class).

[Pixelman]

No.

I like archetypes because they show what a unit's strengths and weaknesses are.

I know for example that a jagen will fall off mid-game but is good for softening up units early-game, and I know what a Cain/Abel archetype's strongest stats will be.

[Cute Chao]

I love the Christmas Duo! I would definitely like them to stay. I prefer them being cavaliers, but I know they occasionally show up differently, but they usually become favourites of mine ^.^''

As others have said, Jagen has a necessity in gameplay, and I suppose the Est types are there for those who want the extra challenge (and I think to help gain stars in exp for perfect runs?) so I can't be too against them.

I like the little homages to the rest, but I'm not convinced they count as archetypes anymore.

Though I agree, we need more manaketes that aren't little girls, so if this counts, I'd like to get rid of that archetype. I'd like more male ones, even the elderly, wizened ones like Bantu, for a change :) But Adult Tiki and Nagi were good, too ^.^

[Tetragrammaton]

Need to replace Sword Lord Archtype

[Sentacotus]

Jagens should stay as they can be damn near essential in higher difficulties.  Imagine doing Lunatic or Luna+ without Frederick in Awakening...Cain and Abel is fine they could be different than cavs though like maybe they can be soldiers, fighters, mercs or whoever.

[Flamy]

I made a post on something completely different, but I think this one applies, all the same.

Why isn't Gundam the same, every time???

Why is Gundam black?
Why does Gundam transform?
Why does Gundam have to be made by three fighter jets?
Why does Gundam not look like a Gundam?
Why does Gundam have wings?
Why does Gundam have afterimages?
Why are there five Gundams, each piloted by a terrorist?
Why does Gundam not have a beam rifle?
Why does Gundam not look like a Gundam?
Why does Gundam spam beams?
Why does Gundam have wings and afterimages?
Why does Gundam not look like a Gundam?
Why does Gundam look like a pirate?
Why does Gundam not look like a Gundam?
Why does Gundam have no beam weaponry?

[L9999]

On 26/7/2017 at 7:44 AM, LordOTaco said:

Jagens should stay as they can be damn near essential in higher difficulties.  Imagine doing Lunatic or Luna+ without Frederick in Awakening...Cain and Abel is fine they could be different than cavs though like maybe they can be soldiers, fighters, mercs or whoever.

Osian and Halvan, Lukas and Forsyth, Mae and Boey...

[FRZNHeir]

The archetypes used in Fire Emblem usually serve as a shortcut to making characters that players (who have played multiple games) will be able to recognize the use of. Seth, Sothe, and Marcus as early-game clutch characters (and end game, in Seth's case). Forde and Kyle, Stahl and Sully, Oscar and Kieran, ect. are always "Those two guys" who are rivals yet good friends. 
The Est-type characters ALWAYS NEED WORK TO MAKE THEM USABLE (Nino being a popular example, as is Elincia)
I mean, there are even archetypes for enemy characters, like the Camus archetype, the enemy general who doesn't typically want to fight your army, or even sympathizes with you, but is loyal to his/her king/lord (Selena, Reinhardt).
Archetypes should stay, just for the fact that they allow for characters that everyone can immediately know something about, without showing much of their character off.

[FootwaySublong]

On 7/17/2017 at 6:31 PM, Ronnie said:

Jagen, Navarre, Cain and Abel, etc. Do you think IS should stop using archetypes and try creating units that are a little more original so that they're not just compared to previous iterations?

Jagens should stay, Christmas Cavaliers can stay, I don't want stock unit archetypes anymore. I liked how it was more discreet in Echoes with Mae, Boey, Forsyth, and Lukas.

[FootwaySublong]

On 7/18/2017 at 8:31 PM, Glaceon Mage said:

I don't think Jakob/Felicia really count as Jagens.  Their stats and rate of EXP gain are on the level of unpromoted units and they get extra levels to compensate for this.  

The only thing I'd consider really Jagen-ish about them is the very early access to advanced skills (Live to Serve and Tomebreaker in particular since they get that from their default class).

I never understood that argument. You're telling me a little maid is on terms with the veteran knight who's promoted?

Yeah, they aren't Jagens.

[DisobeyedCargo]

Jagens: yes, makes hard modes bearable early game

Cain and able: yes but I'd like more spins on it like what Echoes did 

Navarre: yes, I like my early game Myrms. Just don't make them supreme edge lords like Lon'qu or Navarre (ironically)

Bord and Cord: sure, just give them some accuracy pls

Est: REALLY depends on the game. If there's grinding, hell yeah give me my explosive growth. If not, then no.

trainee: yes, I love my trainees, basically Ests but available earlier 

Oifey: yes and no. Give them decent growths, but don't make them so powerful that the game becomes Sethstones 2.0. Make them usable, but not OP.

i think I got all the main ones.

 

[Martin]

I personally enjoy the Cain and Abel archetypes, but would not care too much if they were to no longer be apparent. 

The ones I feel to be must haves are the Jagens and the Trainees. I love the underdogs. 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Martin

[DragonFlames]

My take on it is like with everything: If it's done well, it can stay, if it's done just for the sake of it, then it doesn't need to be there. As for the archetypes themselves:

Jagen: I like the idea of having a veteran warrior around in the early game, not to make said early game bearable (if it's unbearable without a Jagen, you screwed up the balance, but that's just me), but because I like it when said veteran warrior is like a teacher to the "newcomers", sharing their experience with them and helping them grow.

Cain and Abel: I like the concept of duos that complete each other both in story and gameplay (a.k.a. why I always have Stahl marry Sully), but I'd like it if their characters weren't bland (at least not as bland as the original Cain and Abel).

Navarre: I love Myrmidons and I love when you get them early. Though I'll agree with @DisobeyedCargo here: them being edgelords for the most part really has to stop.

Est: A high growth unit you don't get until very late in the game. If you can grind, fine. If their bases are good (like Delthea's), fine. If both of these conditions aren't met, scrap them and give more focus to other characters.

Trainee: Only if they aren't as obnoxious as Donnel.

Oifey: That one pre-promote that pretty much makes the entirety of the rest of the cast worthless just by existing. Nope, I REALLY don't need you.

Camus: This one really depends on the writing of the game. I utterly HATE it when people are just blindly following orders without question or stick to their self-absorbed sense of "honour" when common sense would tell them differently and this extends to characters as well, hence my seething hatred of Xander. But good writing can at least help in making these characters memorable (like Camus himself) or even somewhat likeable when you make it clear they didn't know any better (like Lloyd / Linus).
At the very least, you should make it clear that this kind of character is not someone you would want to be, like Fates tried and spectacularly failed to do with Xanderp.

[Poimagic]

I would only keep some of the archetypes. Specifically, the Oifey's, the Cain and Abel's, the Camus', and the Pegasus Sisters

[Interdimensional Observer]

On 5/14/2018 at 4:56 PM, DragonFlames said:

Camus: This one really depends on the writing of the game. I utterly HATE it when people are just blindly following orders without question or stick to their self-absorbed sense of "honour" when common sense would tell them differently and this extends to characters as well, hence my seething hatred of Xander. But good writing can at least help in making these characters memorable (like Camus himself) or even somewhat likeable when you make it clear they didn't know any better (like Lloyd / Linus).

Camus might have been the first Camus, and he might have some good writing with Nyna and his power level and later his escapades in Valentia and as Sirius, but he partakes of a weak reason to be loyal much the same as some others in the archetype. Honor is his cause to the end, although Ludvik at least is just called weak, and not corrupt. The royal kids were being held hostage too, but only Mystery mentions that.

Corruption is the issue of Eldigan and his King Chagall, a plainly unlikable person who actually kills Eldigan provided Lachesis works her magic on him. If your lord hates you so much he'd execute you, your undying loyalty is misplaced. There is no need for Chagall to be such an ugly individual, other than to make Manfroy, his manipulator, even more godly in his manipulative powers. Had Eldigan not a manipulated boss, had he a king, who if with some issues, nonetheless was a good soul interested in doing good for his kingdom, the situation in Augustria could have been such as to make out Sigurd as a Camus for 1-2 long chapters, which him being in the clear wrong and Eldigan the clear right. Instead, you have Sigurd the pawn of Grannvale, pawn of Manfroy, and Eldigan the pawn of Chagall, pawn of Manfroy, two sides both in the wrong because of Manfroy, who wanted the exhaustive war in Agustria.

Reinhardt- the first case of a love-driven Camus, and a male strangely. Refuses to abandon his Babylonian goddess. Good or bad? Not sure. Not going to flip through FE5's text at the moment to identify how strong/weak he is more. Although doesn't August somewhere tell Leif not to pity Reinhardt? The game condemning a Camus is an interesting move if it is true.

FE6- Well Galle is the primary Camus, but I guess you could consider Brunya like one since she continues fighting after Zephiel's death.

Brunya, do we ever find out why she specifically loves Zephiel, seemingly romantically even? If it is just FE7's retroactive general Zephiel praise, well that makes for a weak bond. Murdoch nursed Zephiel back to health cue the disgusting fanficts, what does Brunya have that is so intimate?

And for Galle, not much is made of his Camusness, only by fighting him with Melady does one get a dramatic sense of it. He otherwise displays no regrets about serving Zephiel, and a Camus must hesitate, while staying the course despite those hesitations.

The Reed brothers- well the first you fight really doesn't understand in full the evil Sonia is doing to the Black Fang, they get the idea she is manipulating their father, and do question it once, but not in full. Camus on the other hand knew in full that Marth was in the right and Medeus was evil. Heck the FFO brother was at the end of their chapter going to go after Sonia. Limstella taking advantage of their injury from HEL to drain their quintessence is the only thing that stops them from doing this. The CoD brother is just raving suicidal insane mad from the death of their sibling, Limstella leaving the corpse for them to mistake as having been the work of HEL. In other words, L&L are not Camuses all that much. Uhai is more of a Camus.

Selena Fluorspar- Her battle is selfish, she should have just taken a dagger and committed suicide herself (her last words speak of being tired), because that is basically what she seeks beneath a bravado of honor and fatalism (her generic battle convo, move Ephraim or Duessel near her) after finding out from Myrrh that Emperor Vigarde. But she wouldn't be much of a Camus if she did that now would she? Well she would still be one to an extent, one losing all Camusness when they betray and suicide is not betrayal, but not undying service to their liege either. This said, her little story of how Vigarde saved her impoverished village is touching and gives her a strong emotional reason to be a Camus. 

Bryce- Undercooked. Only appears at all before the final battle begins, needed more screentime, like Bertram.

Levail- This Camus, if he is one, is a little kisser-upper boy, at least he and Haar have a nice chat. Micaiah in Part 3 is arguably a Camus, and not a bad one.

Yen'fay- Well Say'ri was being held hostage, that was why he fought for Walhart. But once she escapes in Chrom's and Robin's company and has in theory the entire Ylissean continent to hide in in the worst of circumstances, why does he remain loyal to Walhart? No reason for this to be. Yen'fay is trash, Valm barely had enough room for Walhart.

Xander- I have no right to judge. 

A good Camus needs either a good personal connection reason for loyalty, ala Selena, or a good connection related to the country they serve as a whole. I guess they might have tried to do this with Eldigan and the Hezul-Nordion-Royal Family of Agustria divide mess, but it does not appear to have worked out.

[Icelerate]

5 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The Reed brothers- well the first you fight really doesn't understand in full the evil Sonia is doing to the Black Fang, they get the idea she is manipulating their father, and do question it once, but not in full. Camus on the other hand knew in full that Marth was in the right and Medeus was evil. Heck the FFO brother was at the end of their chapter going to go after Sonia. Limstella taking advantage of their injury from HEL to drain their quintessence is the only thing that stops them from doing this. The CoD brother is just raving suicidal insane mad from the death of their sibling, Limstella leaving the corpse for them to mistake as having been the work of HEL. In other words, L&L are not Camuses all that much. Uhai is more of a Camus.

Levail- This Camus, if he is one, is a little kisser-upper boy, at least he and Haar have a nice chat. Micaiah in Part 3 is arguably a Camus, and not a bad one.

 

Do you consider Deghinsea to be a camus? His underlings most certainly are camuses. But I'm not sure if being loyal to a goddess makes one a camus. L&L are camuses, at least in the beginning where they have to follow orders of Sonia because Brendan approved of them. Micaiah is a camus until she learns of the blood pact, then she's being blackmailed and hence is no longer a camus. I'd say these four are the best camuses, if they count. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

Do you consider Deghinsea to be a camus? His underlings most certainly are camuses. But I'm not sure if being loyal to a goddess makes one a camus. L&L are camuses, at least in the beginning where they have to follow orders of Sonia because Brendan approved of them. Micaiah is a camus until she learns of the blood pact, then she's being blackmailed and hence is no longer a camus. I'd say these four are the best camuses, if they count. 

Forgot about Dheginsea somehow! But I would consider him one, certainly one of the best actually. He is loyal to Ashera despite having his reservations about killing off everyone, her being a goddess matters not, he is her servant. 

The same can't be said of Sephiran, since despite all the game's efforts to make you empathize/pity him (success or lack thereof of these efforts aside), a narrative trait common among Camuses, he is the one who got Ashera to cast her judgement. Sephiran might regret his actions and hesitate somewhat on them, but he, not his liege, is who he should be blaming for those regrets.

Dheg didn't realize Sephiran was behind Ashera's decision, he had no idea Sephiran had done anything to bring forth the judgement. Dheg I don't think even meets with Ashera when he goes inside the Tower (and meeting Sephiran would have been necessary to that), he just plops himself high up in it, ready to thwart anyone who might try to stop the second light of judgement. Insofar as Dheg knew, Ashera was in charge, like Eldigan likely thinking Chagall was in charge, despite Manfroy being behind his actions (for Chapter 2 at least). I think it is totally reasonable of Dheg to assume Ashera was manipulation-free.

[Etrurian emperor]

Haven't they already taken several steps back with archtypes in the recent games? Obviously Xander's a Camus and Gunther is a Jagen but aside from those two a lot of archtypes were left behind. 

Both Fates and Awakening miss a Lorentz(presumably because they're afraid of adding older characters)
The Navare who's recruited from the enemy army was missing in Fates. Lonqu probably counts though he lost the trait where you got to personally recruit him. 
Kaze and Saizo strike me as Cain and Able in name only but that could just be me.
Fates lacked an Ogma.
Bords and Cords have stopped boring everyone to death for quite some time now. 

[Etrurian emperor]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Camus might have been the first Camus, and he might have some good writing with Nyna and his power level and later his escapades in Valentia and as Sirius, but he partakes of a weak reason to be loyal much the same as some others in the archetype. Honor is his cause to the end, although Ludvik at least is just called weak, and not corrupt. The royal kids were being held hostage too, but only Mystery mentions that.

I think that's the big weak spot of Camus. He willingly serves a scumbag lord because he values his personal honor so very much. Unlike Vigard or even Garon there's absolutely nothing that suggest to Camus that Ludvik is a man worth serving. He willingly serves a dragon out to subject humanity including Grust and the dialogue of some villages seems to suggest that selling out his kids was Ludviks personal idea.

[Troykv]

I'm okay with archetypes, it's interesting to find out the different ways characters with similar functions in the gameplay and/or narrative are explored in different occassions.

I also think some of the most notable archetypes like the Jeigan should be main-stay, specially the Jeigan, that is probably the oldest intented archetype in the franchise, and has a special function as the crutch unit.

[Icelerate]

7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Forgot about Dheginsea somehow! But I would consider him one, certainly one of the best actually. He is loyal to Ashera despite having his reservations about killing off everyone, her being a goddess matters not, he is her servant. 

The same can't be said of Sephiran, since despite all the game's efforts to make you empathize/pity him (success or lack thereof of these efforts aside), a narrative trait common among Camuses, he is the one who got Ashera to cast her judgement. Sephiran might regret his actions and hesitate somewhat on them, but he, not his liege, is who he should be blaming for those regrets.

Dheg didn't realize Sephiran was behind Ashera's decision, he had no idea Sephiran had done anything to bring forth the judgement. Dheg I don't think even meets with Ashera when he goes inside the Tower (and meeting Sephiran would have been necessary to that), he just plops himself high up in it, ready to thwart anyone who might try to stop the second light of judgement. Insofar as Dheg knew, Ashera was in charge, like Eldigan likely thinking Chagall was in charge, despite Manfroy being behind his actions (for Chapter 2 at least). I think it is totally reasonable of Dheg to assume Ashera was manipulation-free.

Yeah, Sephiran is most certainly not a camus because he's the one who wanted the judgement cast in the first place. What about Zelgius? I'm pretty sure he isn't a camus because he's firmly loyal to Sephiran and hasn't shown any doubts about his ambitions. A camus needs to have doubts for the cause in order to be considered. I wouldn't say Ashera was manipulated by Sephiran though because she hated humanity on her own ideas. She's pretty stubborn as shown when Sephiran joins the good guys. 

Speaking of archetypes, I think archetypes should stay but the characters should have unique qualities to distinguish them from other characters from the archetype. The best characters from each archetype are those that arguably don't even fall within that archetype due to their circumstances and character being rather unique and atypical compared to most others that fall within said archetype. Your boy Sephiran is a great example. I'd say he's one of the best Gharnef archetypes because he isn't just some ugly old man who worships an evil deity just because he can. He has a rich backstory which explains how he became the man he now is more so than the others partly because of his age as well as the extensive lore of Radiant Dawn. 

[Modamy]

5 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Speaking of archetypes, I think archetypes should stay but the characters should have unique qualities to distinguish them from other characters from the archetype. The best characters from each archetype are those that arguably don't even fall within that archetype due to their circumstances and character being rather unique and atypical compared to most others that fall within said archetype. Your boy Sephiran is a great example. I'd say he's one of the best Gharnef archetypes because he isn't just some ugly old man who worships an evil deity just because he can. He has a rich backstory which explains how he became the man he now is more so than the others partly because of his age as well as the extensive lore of Radiant Dawn. 

Speaking of Gharnef; his archetype is pretty weird. Like you said they are mostly old men who worships an evil deity, but that's not Gharnef's character. Gharnef was Gotoh's apprentice who stole the darkspehere because Gotoh felt he wasn't strong enough of heart to handle it and it ended up amplifying his worst traits. He then releases Medeus and the earth dragons to further his own goals with the intention of killing him later with the Falchion that he stole. The "gharnef" archetype as we now seems more based on Jedah rather than Gharnef.

As for the main topic; I'm fine with archetypes. I think they can be done pretty well and it helps when you are familiar with them so when a clear archetypal character is breaking a trend of his archetype it just feels more effective. Well, at least that's how I feel.

[Icelerate]

1 minute ago, Modamy said:

Speaking of Gharnef; his archetype is pretty weird. Like you said they are mostly old men who worships an evil deity, but that's not Gharnef's character. Gharnef was Gotoh's apprentice who stole the darkspehere because Gotoh felt he wasn't strong enough of heart to handle it and it ended up amplifying his worst traits. He then releases Medeus and the earth dragons to further his own goals with the intention of killing him later with the Falchion that he stole. The "gharnef" archetype as we now seems more based on Jedah rather than Gharnef.

As for the main topic; I'm fine with archetypes. I think they can be done pretty well and it helps when you are familiar with them so when a clear archetypal character is breaking a trend of his archetype it just feels more effective. Well, at least that's how I feel.

Gharnef has more depth than I gave him credit for but the point is that the old men who worship an evil deity is done better by Sephiran IMO. I didn't know what Gharnef was planning because I haven't played the Archanea games but I suppose he's an interesting character based on what you said. 

[Modamy]

1 minute ago, Icelerate said:

Gharnef has more depth than I gave him credit for but the point is that the old men who worship an evil deity is done better by Sephiran IMO. I didn't know what Gharnef was planning because I haven't played the Archanea games but I suppose he's an interesting character based on what you said. 

Dang, I was in the middle of editing my quote, but it was more or less me saying that Gharnef's a pretty underrated villain in the series for just how much he accomplishes and sets up contingencies for all of his plans. He even manipulates Michalis to kill his father to get Macedon on his side. Hell, New Mystery adds in the assassin story line which pretty much amounts to the conclusion "Gharnef is the worst person on the face of the planet". Archanea as a whole has a really engaging story and cast and I hope we get another remake down the line to better show off how great a lot of its principle cast can be.

[Etrurian emperor]

4 hours ago, Modamy said:

Dang, I was in the middle of editing my quote, but it was more or less me saying that Gharnef's a pretty underrated villain in the series for just how much he accomplishes and sets up contingencies for all of his plans. He even manipulates Michalis to kill his father to get Macedon on his side. Hell, New Mystery adds in the assassin story line which pretty much amounts to the conclusion "Gharnef is the worst person on the face of the planet". Archanea as a whole has a really engaging story and cast and I hope we get another remake down the line to better show off how great a lot of its principle cast can be.

To be fair, manipulating Michalis is hardly an intellectual battle of the titans. Judging from Michalis evil scheme he's not terrible bright and thus easy prey. 

But I like Gharnef in the assassins subplot. His final conversation with Eremiya was nicely done and shows that Gharnef can be an interesting villain when he wants to be.