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How have your opinions on SoV changed?

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The game is a missed opportunity and a mediocrity. The only reason it isn't garbage is because it isn't sluggish to control or looks hideous like Gaiden. 

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On 15/08/2017 at 7:46 AM, BrightBow said:

. Sure, it's "bad" but it's not "Congratulations player, you burned thousands of people alive! You're the greatest tactician ever!" bad. I really don't want to downplay the difference here.

 

You seem really hung up on this and I don't understand why

Is it the fact that they used fire ships? because those are real weapons that have been used in that exact way for thousands of years

Is it that they don't seem to care that much about the enemy they just set alight? Because dying by being impaled by spears, having your skull obliterated by a hammer, having your internal organs fall out because a sword slashed your stomach, being electrocuted/burned/sliced open by magic and being incinerated/frozen by breath weapons are also incredibly horrible ways to die and they don't react to that at all (in any game in this series)

 

Edited by WyvernLord

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38 minutes ago, WyvernLord said:

You seem really hung up on this and I don't understand why

Is it the fact that they used fire ships? because those are real weapons that have been used in that exact way for thousands of years

Is it that they don't seem to care that much about the enemy they just set alight? Because dying by being impaled by spears, having your skull obliterated by a hammer, having your internal organs fall out because a sword slashed your stomach, being electrocuted/burned/sliced open by magic and being incinerated/frozen by breath weapons are also incredibly horrible ways to die and they don't react to that at all (in any game in this series)

 

I think the main problem for people is how it contrast with an earlier use of Fire in Radiant dawn.

Michaiah pouring down oil to burn her enemies alive was depicted as a moment where she might be crossing some pretty big ethical lines while Robin is merely cheered on for doing something similar in Awakening. 

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33 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think the main problem for people is how it contrast with an earlier use of Fire in Radiant dawn.

Michaiah pouring down oil to burn her enemies alive was depicted as a moment where she might be crossing some pretty big ethical lines while Robin is merely cheered on for doing something similar in Awakening. 

I think both ways are perfectly reasonable ways to act in such a situation

I don't think The generals that came up with those types of plans were treated as villains by their countries.

Edited by WyvernLord

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On 09/10/2017 at 10:53 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

I think the main problem for people is how it contrast with an earlier use of Fire in Radiant dawn.

Michaiah pouring down oil to burn her enemies alive was depicted as a moment where she might be crossing some pretty big ethical lines while Robin is merely cheered on for doing something similar in Awakening. 

I don't think using oil to defeat enemies is particularly heinous, especially since burning people alive is done routinely by fire mages. If I recall correctly, it wasn't just the tactic Micaiah used but also that she was going to horribly massacre a group that wasn't even there to fight them.

I don't hold it against Robin for using fire ships, but I agree that that scene could have had a more serious tone.

 

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1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

I don't think using oil to defeat enemies is particularly heinous, especially since burning people alive is done routinely by fire mages. If I recall correctly, it wasn't just the tactic Micaiah used but also that she was going to horribly massacre a group that wasn't even there to fight them.

I don't hold it against Robin for using fire ships, but I agree that that scene could have had a more serious tone.

 

One- interesting that you bring up fire mages- they do get the free moral pass. And whats the point of having fire mages if we never see fire tactics? They'd be a prime source for them.

 

As for RD and Sanaki. Sanaki and her forces were trying to pass through Daein peacefully en route to Begnion (I criticize this move vs. the option reconquering Begnion from the west and holding off Daein at the Oribes- but it was written). And not only did Micaiah attack them, she went straight for the convoy with Sanaki in it.

You could say thats fine because 3-2's plan was supposed to be a convoy hit and 3-3 is one, and no one criticizes either of these. But in 3-3 you're encouraged not to kill the Senators (BEXP is rewarded)- Micaiah would have killed Sanaki. RD had also just dealt with Begnion violating Crimea's neutrality and pacifism by pillaging the country, and what Micaiah was doing was also in violation of the fact that Sanaki was being peaceful towards them.

However, Soren's logic is that the Senators being killed will create problems later- he isn't making an ethical critique of killing them. Likewise, you could argue Sanaki was infringing on Daein's neutrality, or failing to respect their right to be allied with the Senate (which Sanaki was ultimately going to attack), and thus give them Crimea's moral ground from before.

Overall, I think there is a logic at work in RD which could explain why Micaiah oiling Sanaki was unethical, but at the same time I don't think its an open and shut case completely.

 

As for the fire ships of Awakening- I think the intended tone was epic, but it came off as too casual, and also a Robin "I'm So Special!" moment. And it doesn't reflect well on Walhart to have his vast navy- the key to expanding his ambitions across the sea- smashed in a blink of an eye.

I'm reminded of Dynasty Warriors- where they always have to feature fire attacks due to history being history (plus it adds flair to things). The one of the most important fights of the period is the Battle of Chibi/Red Cliffs, where you have Cao Cao (Walhart) King of Wei the juggernaut moving his ambitions of reunifying China into the southern half by a vast river fleet. Greatly outnumbered, Sun Quan (Chrom) King of Wu has his lackeys Zhou Yu (Robin) and Huang Gai (Frederick) set fire to Cao Cao's fleet, stopping his inexorable push for the time being. Now because Dynasty Warriors lets you play from multiple sides, you're able to have a terrible human tragedy in the Wei portrayal of things, and also the brilliant success in Wu's version of events (since Chibi is more or less the pinnacle of Wu's fighting prowess). 

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On 10.9.2017 at 3:11 PM, WyvernLord said:

You seem really hung up on this and I don't understand why

Is it the fact that they used fire ships? because those are real weapons that have been used in that exact way for thousands of years

Is it that they don't seem to care that much about the enemy they just set alight? Because dying by being impaled by spears, having your skull obliterated by a hammer, having your internal organs fall out because a sword slashed your stomach, being electrocuted/burned/sliced open by magic and being incinerated/frozen by breath weapons are also incredibly horrible ways to die and they don't react to that at all (in any game in this series)

I suppose I should have compared the story to Conquest. That may have been less controversial. I mean, I can't exactly afford having a huge argument about another game's story in an Echoes thread.

My point was merely that as flawed as Echoes story may be, it still surpasses the bar that has been set by the previous two games by miles. Because those stories were not just bad, they were genuinely soul-crushing painful, with self-centric or even downright sociopathic protagonists and self-congratulating avatars whose role as a representation of the player is nothing short of insulting.

Like, Alm may be a Mary Sue that everyone loves and all... but one of the differences towards the likes of Corrin and Robin is that he actually lives up to all the praise. He actually is a genuinely good and compassionate person.

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5 hours ago, BrightBow said:

I suppose I should have compared the story to Conquest. That may have been less controversial. I mean, I can't exactly afford having a huge argument about another game's story in an Echoes thread.

My point was merely that as flawed as Echoes story may be, it still surpasses the bar that has been set by the previous two games by miles. Because those stories were not just bad, they were genuinely soul-crushing painful, with self-centric or even downright sociopathic protagonists and self-congratulating avatars whose role as a representation of the player is nothing short of insulting.

Like, Alm may be a Mary Sue that everyone loves and all... but one of the differences towards the likes of Corrin and Robin is that he actually lives up to all the praise. He actually is a genuinely good and compassionate person.

Well you really must hate Awakening and Fate to call them all that. It a free country well we're I am anyways. I find Echoes trying to be a fantasy story(Celica) while trying to be a typical fire emblem story(Alm). One half get the short end of the stick Celica route, while the other gets all the all the glory. I still like the game and while it story it better than Awakening, the characters for me at least in Awakening are way more fun to me Echoes characters seem really basic and the support didn't really add anything to them some did but most of them were meh to okay. Awakening cast was quircky and fun and the supports added something to them more personality more background and more Charm.

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7 hours ago, BrightBow said:

I suppose I should have compared the story to Conquest. That may have been less controversial. I mean, I can't exactly afford having a huge argument about another game's story in an Echoes thread.

My point was merely that as flawed as Echoes story may be, it still surpasses the bar that has been set by the previous two games by miles. Because those stories were not just bad, they were genuinely soul-crushing painful, with self-centric or even downright sociopathic protagonists and self-congratulating avatars whose role as a representation of the player is nothing short of insulting.

Like, Alm may be a Mary Sue that everyone loves and all... but one of the differences towards the likes of Corrin and Robin is that he actually lives up to all the praise. He actually is a genuinely good and compassionate person.

I don't think its really fair to compare Robin and Corrin to Alm in the same manner. Robin, for example earns the trust and praise he gets as the game progresses due to his actions and his interactions with the cast. 

Corrin is loved immediately because they are Corrin and are praised despite being an idiot and naive.

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