Fire Emblem 4 Echoes Ideas

[darkblade2814]

I think that IF Inteligent Sysitems do a Reamke of Fire Emblem 4 with an Avatar, I wish we could chose an holy blood (minor) with the influence of Early game Robin, and maybe a new character to marry him like Sigurd and Diadre, and sidequests for geting some characters from Trachia 776, like Saias.

[Darrman]

1 hour ago, darkblade2814 said:

I think that IF Inteligent Sysitems do a Reamke of Fire Emblem 4 with an Avatar, I wish we could chose an holy blood (minor) with the influence of Early game Robin, and maybe a new character to marry him like Sigurd and Diadre, and sidequests for geting some characters from Trachia 776, like Saias.

NO.  FE4 does not have an avatar, and one should not be shoehorned in. It would just steal all the spotlight and hog all the glory. Probably wouldn't even die at Barhara, knowing avatars. (Cyas, etc. I don't really care about either way, but I am strongly against an avatar.)

[darkblade2814]

51 minutes ago, Darrman said:

NO.  FE4 does not have an avatar, and one should not be shoehorned in. It would just steal all the spotlight and hog all the glory. Probably wouldn't even die at Barhara, knowing avatars. (Cyas, etc. I don't really care about either way, but I am strongly against an avatar.)

I said IF, and what about sidequests to use characters of Trachia? like Saias, a Major Fala blood user, for you use Valflame against Julius.

[Kirb1337]

We need an fe3 remake first, we don't have enough of those.

[Tetragrammaton]

45 minutes ago, Kirb1337 said:

We need an fe3 remake first, we don't have enough of those.

Really?

[Kazuya]

This isn't as related to the topic but I feel like Echoes won't be a subseries title. Besides, if FE4 would be remade I doubt it will be like the old version.

[Vaximillian]

Huge maps are the charm of Genealogy, and I’d be pretty pissed if they break them up. Ditto for the characters and pairings. E:SoV didn’t add new pairings besides those that have already existed in Gaiden; neither did it add any meaningful characters (except maybe Faye; another potential cleric on Alm’s route is not to be underestimated). There are still no playable axes in the game, you see.

Seliph×Julia glitch is exactly that, a glitch that should not ascend. Their starting love value makes sense due to the plot and is a neat small detail. Claud×Silvia is deliberately left vague, and Ares×Nanna is still cousins.

What should definitely happen is weapon and items rebalance: swords and wind tomes should not trump everything else, and axes and fire tomes should not hopelessly suck. Holy weapons should still stay limited in both quantity (no playable Valflame) and quality (major blood only) as it just makes sense that the special weapons created by dragons for use by people blessed by dragons should be used by the progeny of those blessed by dragons.

The only change I would make to the pawn shop is allowing everybody to buy anything: the shopkeep shouldn’t just shrug if, e. g., Lex came and asked for a silver blade. He might want to make a wedding present to Ayra, you know.

And yeah, you should be able to choose how much gold you want to transfer from a thief or between lovers instead of dumping everything until the max.

Now, graphical and sound upgrades are obvious things, and I don’t think I even need to elaborate on these. I’m still sort of conflicted on whether they would remake that glorious 80’s hair in full 3D, tone it down as in Thracia, or redesign the characters completely from scratch like Hidari did for E:SoV. They do need to make an effort to make Eldigan and Ares look a bit more different, same for Lachesis and Nanna, Ayra and Larcei. Deirdre and Julia already have this toned down (Deirdre’s hair is wavy, Julia’s is straight), so I’m more indifferent on these.

I’m not sure what my position is on doubling without Pursuit and critting without Critical, they can do whatever they want according to their vision. Opening up the inheritance of the “sword skills” to non-sword kids is a good idea though.

[NewTypeEldie]

8 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

Now, graphical and sound upgrades are obvious things, and I don’t think I even need to elaborate on these. I’m still sort of conflicted on whether they would remake that glorious 80’s hair in full 3D, tone it down as in Thracia, or redesign the characters completely from scratch like Hidari did for E:SoV. They do need to make an effort to make Eldigan and Ares look a bit more different, same for Lachesis and Nanna, Ayra and Larcei. Deirdre and Julia already have this toned down (Deirdre’s hair is wavy, Julia’s is straight), so I’m more indifferent on these.

I'm not big on a total redesign of the characters but I do want their design updated. SoV needed redesigns because a lot of the characters in the game had generic and/or simple designs, but GotHW has pretty good and unique designs (at least for playable characters). I'm not the biggest fan of the redesigns for Eldigan and Seliph in Heroes so I hope IS comes up with something good. 

[Mrnuage]

I think they won't change the maps that much. Gaiden had obvious flaws with this too. Except for some stupid moments like having to backtrack with your whole army in chapter 2, 3 and 4 or crossing the whole yied desert in chapter 5, the huge maps is a feature I love and breaking the game into smaller chapters would change the core gameplay. 

Also about the pawn shop and trading, changing it would need a lot of changes about some items. For example rings should become consumable items like in fe5 to prevent stupid abuses. Paragon ring should become Paragon manual as in fe5. I'm not very fo d of this idea since it would remove some uniqueness from the game. But i just had an idea: Why not make a compromise and add some kind of merlinus to this game ? Some kind of wagon or tent being a unit you can move freely? It wouldn't be able to fight but its only purpose would be to have a mobile pawn shop so that you still would not be able to abuse uses of op item such as paragon ring but you could visit it directly on the battlefield and not require to teleport to a castle to use it. 

Also i agree with the ability to buy items you can't use would make sense. I'm in a playthrough right now and pairing dew and aideen sucks because you can't give any bow to lester because dew can't buy one. In the meantime, Fin could give a silver blade to delmud just because he gave the final blow to chagall in chapter 3. That doesn't make sense and I don't see what abuse it prevents compared to the pawn shop. 

[Punished Dayni]

I kind of wish there's 2 types of FE4, stupid as that sounds. While I know that it is flawed, severely imbalanced and many of the features are difficult to deal with, it also allows it to stand alone, and it helps emphasise the scale of the conflict, something I do love about this game. Though I think I'll be more willing to accept the changed version for a remake.

So, some thoughts:

-Everyone keeping their own money and inventory which can be then passed on is a big deal for this game, so this is a bit of a hard sell to change personally. I certainly agree on being able to buy unequipable weapons and passing items between couples, but I'm not so certain on other changes.

-The kids keeping their usual classes is something I'm actually not so certain on: What if they could either have a different class or they might gain certain attributes or weapons based on their parents? For example, pairing Lex with Ayra could allow their kids to use axes? It could allow some interesting features and make certain pairings more interesting than trash (Stuff like Holyn/Aideen might actually make sense to use now)

-Skills need a major overhaul: Obviously Pursuit needs to go, but beyond that I do think skills need some balancing and tweaking. Some hacks have done some good stuff already, I don't think I need to elaborate too much when stuff like Binary or the shin patch)

-I do think they'd need to do a rewrite on how the story is presented. Stuff like how offscreen events occur need to be improved on, though some things are likely fine as is (even if it leads to some odd things like Mahnya's death being seen from far away). Also, we might need to talk about how Manfroy is the flashstep champion and fix that possible mess.

-If they do decide to split the maps up, I do think making a massive bundle with Thracia might just be doable: I'm not going to pretend it wouldn't be a huge undertaking, but I think it would allow them to bring the two closer together

-Keep the beautiful 80's hair maybe?

[CappnRob]

Maaan there's a lot in this thread I disagree with lol. Not gonna list every single instance as that'd take forever and a half, but personally? Echoes did a GREAT job at preserving the original mechanics of Gaiden while dusting off and smoothing the janky bits, and I LOVED that about it. A Genealogy remake HAS to do the same for me to approve of it. No giant maps, no lover system, no insane holy blood, etc? Then no sell for me. This also extends to the pawn shop, and other such unique takes FE4 has on standardized mechanics. They are FINE in FE4 because FE4 is BUILT around them - you're mean to plan your actions ahead of time, loadout characters accordingly, then commit to it. If you could trade all nilly willy then the strategy of the game is lost. That's how FE4 is. It isn't SUPPOSED to be like other FEs, just like Gaiden wasn't either.

Anyway, I made a thread myself some months ago listing the tweaks I would like to see, you can read that right here!

I also remarked in another thread how to reconcile Geneaology's lover point system with modern supports, you can read that right here.

Stuff not mentioned: EXPANDED STORY. This kind of ties in with wanting Supports, but holy balls I absolutely adored how Echoes embellished on Gaiden's story and even refitted some of its battles with named enemies to expand on the narrative greatly, and not just limiting it to the main character and some NPCs. Cliff/Tobin/Gray all get really involved with stuff, Clive and Lukas are also super involved too. Celica has Saber ascending to importance alongside Mae and Boey - plus all the villages you visit and shrines have tons of just random chances to talk to your party members and learn more about them, to say nothing of all the little details like characters remarking on each other's performances in a battle, their quips during crits or after a battle, memory prisms and the prequel DLC material. All of this has set a STANDARD imo for future remakes and Genealogy is a MUCH more narrative heavy story than Gaiden was, and a lot of it was locked behind developer notes, obscure or dummied out conversations, or just outright not written in until Thracia 776. The Judgral story is a great one, but its very piecemeal and "assembly required", and a remake MUST remedy that and provide the cohesive narrative we've all been wanting.

[Corrobin]

Honestly? I basically just want Binary in modern graphics.

[SimplyUnknown]

The main thing I would change if we did get a remake is to make the main bosses more than just constant recolors of one another. I want them to actually have more personality and look more different then just seeing the same sprite with different hair or eye color.

[Pou]

open ? world ? fire ? emblem ? IV

[Quirino]

Don't reduce the size of the maps please. That's what gives FE4 its unique charm. I love the maps with the different story elements and the organized armies. I'd much rather see the ability to save after conquering a castle (before the cutscenes for the next sequence of events start).

About being able to obtain all holy weapons: I'm against this. The few people that can wield holy weapons are already overpowered compared to the remainder of your team. If all holy weapons can be obtained in Gen 2, then there's hardly any reason to use the other characters.

I don't particularly like the pawn shop idea (and it logically makes no sense why units can't trade directly), but combined with the repair shop it is necessary to do it this way or staves would be broken. It would take some serious tweaking if they want to add trading to the game.

Personally I'd love to see some bonus chapters/paralogues (perhaps use these to break down story parts within smaller maps or to explain stories that have been brushed over). Also, I really want to know who all survived the Battle of Belhella.

I don't know why so many people are triggered by the Seliph x Julia thing. In Fates you can outright marry and have children with your blood siblings. Personally I don't care for the ability to pair up Seliph and Julia, but it wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me in the slightest.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Quirino

[SavageVolug]

While I believe a FE4 remake would be AMAZING maybe even end up being the #1 best FE game in the entire series thanks to updated models, animations and mechanics. There is ONE thing that makes me wary of such a project. Premonitions. I WOULD HATE THIS, but I can almost guarantee that there would be a premonition scene like in Echoes probably showing Alvis decimating Sigurd and company. I really, really hope that this would not be the case if a FE4 remake was done as it could be the greatest thing ever but it is something that would cause me to be concerned about such a project.

[NewTypeEldie]

1 hour ago, Quirino said:

Don't reduce the size of the maps please. That's what gives FE4 its unique charm. I love the maps with the different story elements and the organized armies. I'd much rather see the ability to save after conquering a castle (before the cutscenes for the next sequence of events start).

About being able to obtain all holy weapons: I'm against this. The few people that can wield holy weapons are already overpowered compared to the remainder of your team. If all holy weapons can be obtained in Gen 2, then there's hardly any reason to use the other characters.

You make a good point about the holy weapons here, but I think that a post-game could remedy this. SoV had a post game that was interesting enough, and if that were pulled off in an FE4 remake then it wouldn't be a deal breaker to gain access to all the holy weapons as long as non-holy blood units can still be good.

1 hour ago, Quirino said:

I don't know why so many people are triggered by the Seliph x Julia thing. In Fates you can outright marry and have children with your blood siblings. Personally I don't care for the ability to pair up Seliph and Julia, but it wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me in the slightest.

You are the only other person besides me who is ok with this haha. I find it odd that people hate this kind of stuff in FE4 when Fates sold like crazy thanks to stuff like that. 

[sirmola]

33 minutes ago, GreatHylian said:

You make a good point about the holy weapons here, but I think that a post-game could remedy this. SoV had a post game that was interesting enough, and if that were pulled off in an FE4 remake then it wouldn't be a deal breaker to gain access to all the holy weapons as long as non-holy blood units can still be good.

You are the only other person besides me who is ok with this haha. I find it odd that people hate this kind of stuff in FE4 when Fates sold like crazy thanks to stuff like that. 

WRT getting all holy weapons: I think that the fact that not all holy weapons end up on the same side was part of the message and theme of the game. This game is about inheritance of birthrights and  responsibilities (after all, the second generation is about dealing with the first's unfinished buisness, and lots of the problems in the first generation are due to the mistakes of THEIR parents). Many people interpret their inherited responsibilities differently, or ignore them entirely. This is especialy true given that the events of the original crusaders (who are the great grand parents of the gen one heroes) happened just long enough ago that they are passing out of living memory. If you ended up with all of the holy weapons, it would undermine the theme.

WRT other characters being underpowered: This game has ridiculess enemy hp inflation, making it hard to kill enemies without an op weapon. reducing holy weapon stats (perhaps to 25 mt and +10 in bonuses), while also reducing endgame enemy hp, would probably solve the problem.

WRT incest: Brother sister incest is NOT considered okay. That's why fates had that stupid "not actually your blood siblings" plot twist that gets revealed via a completely out of nowhere letter during S supports. That would obviously be impossible to do in this case. Keep in mind that this game acualy has "incest is bad" as an explicet theme.

 

[DiogoJorge]

First thing first. 40 levels rather than 30. promotion at 20 with items rather than castle. make it less faithfull than SoV was towards Gaiden.

More characters and an Avatar system.

Divide  most chapters into 3 smaller chapters. Prologue should be 2.

1st generation's fate isn't left to one's imagination and all of them turn out alive, with the exception of Tiltyu (who can be ressurected via paralogue, either you get Tiltyu ressurected and Claud dies doing so, or Tiltyu remains dead and Claud joins the 2nd generation)

Deployment should be restricted to 12-16 characters per chapter, rather than have everyone come out.

Paralogues where one finds the survivors of Bahalla.

Avatar gets to choose minor blood for his character, but not major blood. Also, if one chooses to not have holy blood, then all growths are raised by 5% instead of focusing on a few stats and getting a higher boost.

Ability to trade items

modern currency system

Legendary weapons can be wielded by minor blood characters, with the exception of the Tyrfing which is Sigurd/Seliph only.

Legendary weapons nerfed. Raise a single stat by 5 and have a MT of 18. regular weapons should also be scaled down.

Edited November 7, 2017 by DiogoJorge

[SavageVolug]

Something that I would like to see is a forging system similar to what was used either in Radiant Dawn or in Shadow Dragon, if you have weapon repair and then along with that an in depth forging system it allows for some pretty cool things that can be done. Also it would give players something to use their cash on besides buying the paragon ring.

[sirmola]

19 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

First thing first. 40 levels rather than 30. promotion at 20 with items rather than castle. make it less faithfull than SoV was towards Gaiden.

More characters and an Avatar system.

Divide each most chapters into smaller 3 chapters. Prologue should be 2.

1st generation's fate isn't left to one's imagination and all of them turn out alive, with the exception of Tiltyu (who can be ressurected via paralogue, either you get Tiltyu ressurected and Claud dies doing so, or Tiltyu remains dead and Claud joins the 2nd generation)

Paralogues where one finds the survivors of Bahalla.

Avatar gets to choose minor blood for his character, but not major blood. Also, if one chooses to not have holy blood, then all growths are raised by 5% instead of focusing on a few stats and getting a higher boost.

Ability to trade items

modern currency system

Legendary weapons can be wielded by minor blood characters, with the exception of the Tyrfing which is Sigurd/Seliph only.

Legendary weapons nerfed. Raise a single stat by 5 and have a MT of 18. regular weapons should also be scaled down.

I disagree with lots of these, because all of these changes taken together remove geneology's uniqueness. Some changes are nesesairy to make the game more fun, but to many and it just feels like any other fe. One idea I like is the "avatar with minor holy blood" one, but only if the avatar gets killed, (with his kid filling in the same role in gen two.) THis is a game that revolves around the brahara masacure. Allowing an excessive number of people to survive dilutes the impact of the event. By contrast, seting up an avatar character, and then killing him, makes the twist even more effective. if you must have paralogs, make them be about fe5 characters, substitutes, or origional characters.

Edited November 7, 2017 by sirmola

[King Marth 64]

1 hour ago, sirmola said:

I disagree with lots of these, because all of these changes taken together remove geneology's uniqueness. Some changes are nesesairy to make the game more fun, but to many and it just feels like any other fe. One idea I like is the "avatar with minor holy blood" one, but only if the avatar gets killed, (with his kid filling in the same role in gen two.) THis is a game that revolves around the brahara masacure. Allowing an excessive number of people to survive dilutes the impact of the event. By contrast, seting up an avatar character, and then killing him, makes the twist even more effective. if you must have paralogs, make them be about fe5 characters, substitutes, or origional characters.

What about if the Avatar might survive Behella's Masacure and he/she somehow got wounded similar to like how Brigid survived and lose all her memories that became Eyval? But, would the Avatar most likely to have 1 child than just two children and the child would make it a possibly sibling to any mother's children (except for Seliph, Leif, Atlenna, and Julia) like Morgan and Kana in Awakening and Fates?

[NewTypeEldie]

3 hours ago, sirmola said:

WRT getting all holy weapons: I think that the fact that not all holy weapons end up on the same side was part of the message and theme of the game. This game is about inheritance of birthrights and  responsibilities (after all, the second generation is about dealing with the first's unfinished buisness, and lots of the problems in the first generation are due to the mistakes of THEIR parents). Many people interpret their inherited responsibilities differently, or ignore them entirely. This is especialy true given that the events of the original crusaders (who are the great grand parents of the gen one heroes) happened just long enough ago that they are passing out of living memory. If you ended up with all of the holy weapons, it would undermine the theme.

I can see the direction you're going here but that isn't the theme at all. From what I gather the theme is more balanced in the sense that the heroes still adopt the battle of their ancestors while learning from their mistakes. Getting holy weapons doesn't infringe on this theme at all, in fact it would actually support the theme if receiving the holy weapons is done in an act of redemption. The game does challenge the idea of unchecked birthright as some characters achieve power but fail due to being selfish and incompetent. The heroes fight to earn their birthright, and just as they become the rulers of their dukedom or country, it shouldn't be so far fetched to have them earn a holy weapon. Plus who doesn't want to Valflame poor fools into oblivion?

 

4 hours ago, sirmola said:

WRT incest: Brother sister incest is NOT considered okay. That's why fates had that stupid "not actually your blood siblings" plot twist that gets revealed via a completely out of nowhere letter during S supports. That would obviously be impossible to do in this case. Keep in mind that this game acualy has "incest is bad" as an explicet theme.

In regards to this, once again you aren't wrong but you might be ignoring the fact that this is fiction and boundary-pushing relationships between siblings has always been a theme or at the very least an inside joke in the series. What I referenced is the fact that the inclusion of siscons and brocons is just attractive to a particular demographic which happened to be part of the larger demographic that ate Fates up.  Ultimately, a properly executed story or character arc that uses incest could be very interesting as Eldigan and Lachesis show in the manga. 

[SimplyUnknown]

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

First thing first. 40 levels rather than 30. promotion at 20 with items rather than castle. make it less faithfull than SoV was towards Gaiden.

I'm ok with this idea mainly because I can imagine how annoying returning to the castles for promotions would be.

More characters and an Avatar system.

I honestly don't think the game needs more characters, and an Avatar wouldn't really fit in with this story unless it's an unplayable one like Mark in FE7.

1st generation's fate isn't left to one's imagination and all of them turn out alive, with the exception of Tiltyu (who can be ressurected via paralogue, either you get Tiltyu ressurected and Claud dies doing so, or Tiltyu remains dead and Claud joins the 2nd generation)

That then brings up the question as to why so many characters didn't help up with the new revolution, or actually raise their children. Having them all turn up alive in the end undermines the tragedy of the first gen and makes the success of the second gen far less sweet.

Paralogues where one finds the survivors of Bahalla.

See my points above.

Ability to trade items

Alright, but I'd limit this to just trading with specific people like family members/actual relationships.

Legendary weapons can be wielded by minor blood characters, with the exception of the Tyrfing which is Sigurd/Seliph only.

I'd like to see this, but minor blood characters get half the benefits that major blood characters get. I think that would help with balancing issues.

 

 

[DiogoJorge]

13 hours ago, sirmola said:

I disagree with lots of these, because all of these changes taken together remove geneology's uniqueness. Some changes are nesesairy to make the game more fun, but to many and it just feels like any other fe. One idea I like is the "avatar with minor holy blood" one, but only if the avatar gets killed, (with his kid filling in the same role in gen two.) THis is a game that revolves around the brahara masacure. Allowing an excessive number of people to survive dilutes the impact of the event. By contrast, seting up an avatar character, and then killing him, makes the twist even more effective. if you must have paralogs, make them be about fe5 characters, substitutes, or origional characters.

Forgot to mention. But Sigurd, Deidre, Quan and Ethlyn would die even in the remake. I noticed that I forgot to mention that part, since those are the only deaths that are necessary for the plot to move along.

Genealogy's "uniqueness" ruins the balance of the game. Knights need either more movement or for the maps to become smaller.

No way the Avatar is getting killed, he's a representation of ourselves and would be meaningless if we don't get to use him in 2nd generation.

Also, to prevent the Avatar and other characters from being too leveled when the 2nd generation begins and they rejoin, their levels would be reduced to 10 and their stats cut in half, they would also be unable to level past 20 in the 1st generation. Needless to say, enemies would be scaled to not be able to get past that level either. 

The only deaths necessary would still be there, all other deaths are pointless, specially since we never know if they really died or not, since the game tells us that their fate remained unknown.

Edited November 8, 2017 by DiogoJorge