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The most underrated Fire emblem game


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6 hours ago, Devnad said:

 

I consider Thracia a hardcore Fire Emblem jaunt that only dedicated fans should try, and they pretty much can't go in blind.
 

False just false. The one thing you might have to look up is what do scrolls do since, translation error but other then that not really. Yea there are some bullshit maps that everyone says are a bit bullshiti but every FE games has a bad map or two. We aught to look at the game as a whole, the sum of its parts. 

 

And yea the capture mechanic needs to come back and is one of the many reasons why I loved Thracia. Like, I cant wait until it gets a new/better translation because I wanna mug people again. Hopefully in the remake, since EVERYONE loves Rienheart because of the gacha game, they make him recruitable if you capture him or something, like Shiva. And have some crazy elaborate way to make him join like Michilies in NM. 

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4 hours ago, hanhnn said:

I love it when some one said the game is too difficult for them to even try it, while at the same time every one who tried it said it's not that difficult.

I mean, it's not that it's not difficult. For vanilla experiences, I'd say Thracia is still the hardest FE game(Obviously it gets convoluted when you bring in extra difficulties from later games, but the standard experience, Thracia's the hardest in my mind).

But the people who haven't played it are fixated on things that aren't what make the game hard, and are convinced that's the reason it's hard.

Edited by Slumber
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14 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Sorry, but no way in the seven hells do I think it deserves trying when there are mechanical and gameplay issues that are far and away beyond my ability to turn a blind eye to. Also, I feel that I'd literally have to force myself to play it, which isn't a good sign.

Well, if you say so, but I don't think anyone would take your opinion and complaints about the game seriously due to you not playing it, for the most part...

 

15 hours ago, Devnad said:

I consider Thracia a hardcore Fire Emblem jaunt that only dedicated fans should try, and they pretty much can't go in blind.

I'll agree with this in regards to recruitment of characters, as from what I've read, some of them leave and return later, or have some specific criteria besides for talking to them before they join.

 

15 hours ago, Devnad said:

Minor complaint that's not really a big deal is why do all dismounted units use swords? Why couldn't some still use lances lol.

I guess they kind of did it the way it was done in FE3, where dismounted units could only use swords. If a remake of the game happens, I hope they give dismounted units a class that can use swords and another weapon type the unit was able to use when mounted (such as pegasus and wyvern riders using lances when dismounted, and mounted axe units using axes when dismounted).

 

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16 hours ago, Devnad said:

I consider Thracia a hardcore Fire Emblem jaunt that only dedicated fans should try, and they pretty much can't go in blind.

Nah I disagree with this only cause I know people who have gone in blind and really loved the game. One guy I know who I got to try out the game tried getting into the series previously when a friend showed him some of the other games in the series with FE8, then FE7, then FE4 and he disliked all of them only making it a few chapters into each. I ended up telling him to try Thracia and he came back loving it. It's certainly a game players can enjoy on their blind run or even on a run without much FE experience.

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What even happened here.

Anyways, I don't like Thracia, I've mellowed out a bit on it but it's still one of my least favorite FEs. I will admit it is pretty balanced around most of it's mechanics, but I just don't like any of it's unique mechanics or find them fun. It does have some maps I enjoy but for the most part there's more it doesn't really engage me at all.

Story is nice, though.

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Difficulty has a large range of definition.
As for a difficult game I would understand that the enemies have really good stats and skills and tend to overman you. I'd say it's not the case.

FE5 became artificially difficult due to all its mechanics:

  • no guaranteed hit and miss
  • sick throne boosts (as issue no one has mentioned yet btw)
  • status affects last the entire chapter
  • Leaf has to escape last
  • heal can miss
  • warptiles in chapter 24
  • fatigue

All these mechanics make the player's life a lot harder than the game actually is. 
The final chapter is the only chapter the enemies have serious stats and skills (crusaders)... well... and Reinhardt of course. Otherwise they're a joke for the most part. Ballistas got a huge buff compared to FE4 though, you fight tons of them in FE5.

Edited by Aya Shameimaru
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1 minute ago, Aya Shameimaru said:



FE5 is artifically difficult because of all its mechanics:

  • no guaranteed hit and miss
  • sick throne boosts (as issue no one mentioned btw)
  • status affects last the entire chapter
  • Leaf has to escape first
  • heal can miss
  • warptiles in chapter 24
  • fatigue

 

 

Everything you mentioned is not artificial. Artificial difficulty is a term used when describing a game thats difficulty is based around higher numbers and thats it. Ex: Normal mode has random dude with 5hp, hard mode has the dude at 50hp or something to that effect. (Ever since dark souls came out people have been using that term incorrectly I swear). Its pretty much just numbers and everything you mentioned has nothing to do with numbers other then Guaranteed hit and miss (by one) and heals can miss which, like is really not a big deal. Fatigue teaches you to resource your units as you would items, leaf having to ascape makes escape maps, actually escape maps since before and after its more of a seize the throne. Every should make it out first before the chapter ends. 

 

Warp tiles suck but are miss able/skip able so whatever. 

No guaranteed hit and miss sucks though but its by 1%. unless you just walk by a black cat, under stairs inside a house with an umbralla and broke a mirror, you wont be noticing that much. 

 

8 minutes ago, Aya Shameimaru said:

Ballistas got a huge buff compared to FE4 though, you fight tons of them in FE5.

Honestly, maybe because I was scroll abusing Karrin, I never felt Ballistats were any more scary in FE5 then other games in which they kill instead of just damage (fuck you conquest). I find them more scary in FE6 because some of them can crit (Killer baliisatas really IS?) 

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I don't get why people care about the no guaranteed miss. 1% isn't a big deal and it ends up making the game less annoying cause it means enemies don't stop attacking once they hit 0 hit like they do in FE4 which is hella dumb. Alternatively they could make the enemies not care about 0% hit rates but then people will make fun of them for having dumb AI. The 99% hit ceiling is annoying though. My theory is they did this to account for the immortal characters. In a remake though this could be fixed by giving those characters a hidden skill that caps hit rate on them at 99% and causes them to dodge all lethal attacks. I will say though that the 99% hit ceiling is less of a deal that people make it out to be. Thracia is loaded with supports skills that end up boosting your hit rates so that if you play cleverly you'll always be at around 90% hit or more which ends up making things about as reliable as most modern FE games even without true hit. But yeah no reason to have the hit ceiling but the hit floor should stay imo.

Throne boosts are usually not an issue and I actually like them. They encourage support and skill stacking to overcome the bonuses which is good fun. Chapter 21 is an instance of bad design however since it's one of the few points in the game where you can't stack supports very well to counter the boosts.

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4 hours ago, Aya Shameimaru said:

The final chapter is the only chapter the enemies have serious stats and skills (crusaders)... well... and Reinhardt of course.

Yeah, i heard Reinhardt is only beatable with certain units, and that's assuming they are trained properly.

On 8/21/2017 at 4:15 AM, Emperor said:

Shadow dragon is not underrated its rather meh. With it being ugly as sin and the requirements for gaiden chapters being so ass backwards.

The Gaiden chapter requirements are indeed dumb but i'm gonna use your logic against you here. The Gaiden chapters are optional, so the requirments, for as dumb as they are, are a non-issue.

11 hours ago, Flee Fleet! said:

I guess they kind of did it the way it was done in FE3, where dismounted units could only use swords.

It was different in FE3 because the Weapon Triangle didn't exist. So if there were ever lance-users, dismounted swordies would never feel at a disadvantage.

4 hours ago, Emperor said:

Artificial difficulty is a term used when describing a game thats difficulty is based around higher numbers and thats it. Ex: Normal mode has random dude with 5hp, hard mode has the dude at 50hp or something to that effect.

That's not artificial difficulty, that's basic difficulty. Basically difficulty is where you just make things tougher. That's what you described. Artificial difficulty, for example, is basically every Mario Maker level ever made. An example of a legitimate difficult game would be Crash Bandicoot. It's designed in a way that challenges the player, without overly relying on the things that make it hard. Aside from the bridge levels, if a player fucks up in Crash Bandicoot, it's their own fault.

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2 minutes ago, Armagon said:

The Gaiden chapter requirements are indeed dumb but i'm gonna use your logic against you here. The Gaiden chapters are optional, so the requirments, for as dumb as they are, are a non-issue.

They are skippable sure but they reword you for playing bad which is what I dont like in video games. They incentive's you to kill of your units which is odd in a FE game. In FE you WANT your units to live, you shouldt wanna to kill them off. Its not just that they are dumb, its that they go AGAINST FE principles. Also honestly it being ugly as fucking sin is a bigger reason. SNES and GBA FE games looked better. NES games looked better what happend IS? 

 

4 minutes ago, Armagon said:

That's not artificial difficulty, that's basic difficulty. Basically difficulty is where you just make things tougher. That's what you described. Artificial difficulty, for example, is basically every Mario Maker level ever made. An example of a legitimate difficult game would be Crash Bandicoot. It's designed in a way that challenges the player, without overly relying on the things that make it hard. Aside from the bridge levels, if a player fucks up in Crash Bandicoot, it's their own fault.

 Basic difficulty is when you make things tougher yes, but if you make it tougher by artificially inflating the states to an absurd amount and add no new moves/enemy placement/reinforcement etc, then it became artificial. 

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8 minutes ago, Emperor said:

They are skippable sure but they reword you for playing bad which is what I dont like in video games. They incentive's you to kill of your units which is odd in a FE game. In FE you WANT your units to live, you shouldt wanna to kill them off. Its not just that they are dumb, its that they go AGAINST FE principles.

So everyone who does an Iron Man run goes against FE principles? LOL ok.

Also, correction, the Gaiden chapters don't reward you for being bad. If you get the Replacement Characters, then you are being rewarded for playing badly. Note: Replacement Characters are not to be confused with the Gaiden characters and FE4's Subsitute Units.

8 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Also honestly it being ugly as fucking sin is a bigger reason. SNES and GBA FE games looked better. NES games looked better what happend IS? 

Ah yes, the NES FEs. The two games in the series that literally took a character design, changed the colors, and called it a new character.

I don't see how Shadow Dragon's artstyle is worse than the NES games. It's ugly, yes. But it isn't worse than the NES games.

Edit

Quote

Basic difficulty is when you make things tougher yes, but if you make it tougher by artificially inflating the states to an absurd amount and add no new moves/enemy placement/reinforcement etc, then it became artificial. 

Yes, but there are other ways to make a game artificial. An example would be purposely putting things that would put the player at a disadvantage in a way that they can't possibly have seen it coming, and when they do, they barely have any time to react.

Instant death traps in the wrong places are another example of artificial difficulty.

Edited by Armagon
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3 minutes ago, Armagon said:

It was different in FE3 because the Weapon Triangle didn't exist. So if there were ever lance-users, dismounted swordies would never feel at a disadvantage.

The weapon triangle in FE5 is 5% so I don't see your point. It barely matters.

2 minutes ago, Emperor said:

They are skippable sure but they reword you for playing bad which is what I dont like in video games. They incentive's you to kill of your units which is odd in a FE game. In FE you WANT your units to live, you shouldt wanna to kill them off. Its not just that they are dumb, its that they go AGAINST FE principles. Also honestly it being ugly as fucking sin is a bigger reason. SNES and GBA FE games looked better. NES games looked better what happend IS? 

I actually like the SD gaiden requirements unlike most. While I've personally never been to a gaiden chapter they pretty much exist to get players who screwed up back on their feet. The problem with them ends up being the fanbase is obsessed with keeping all their units alive so most players, even if they are struggling, will never see them and feel like they missed out on content.

5 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Basic difficulty is when you make things tougher yes, but if you make it tougher by artificially inflating the states to an absurd amount and add no new moves/enemy placement/reinforcement etc, then it became artificial. 

Hmm. Usually artificial difficulty is used in the context that "More Failure = More Difficult" and the game tries to maximize the players failure rate in an attempt to make the game more difficult. This usually involves pulling bs that the player can't see coming and has no warning for. Many old games are guilty of this. What inflating stats(Particularly HP and DEF) does is make the game more tedious sometimes. It really depends on the game. I think SD and NM do a pretty good job of inflating the right stats (SPD and ATK) while enemies are generally around as durable as they were on the easier modes. Though I particularly remember the chapter 3 boss of SD H5 to be bullshit.

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2 minutes ago, Valkama said:

The weapon triangle in FE5 is 5% so I don't see your point. It barely matters.

You have a point. Though FE5 also does Weapon Rank as opposed to FE3's Weapon Level system. So FE5 units with a low sword rank will be disadvantaged. Sure, the Elite Sword exists, but that's one sword vs several dismounted units. Who do you pick?

Also, can we all agree that the Weapon Triangle was implemented horribly in Jugdral? It was either really broken (FE4) or practically non-existent (FE5).

5 minutes ago, Valkama said:

This usually involves pulling bs that the player can't see coming and has no warning for.

Like Ch.24x's warp traps.

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14 minutes ago, Armagon said:

So everyone who does an Iron Man run goes against FE principles? LOL ok.

 

No I meant that, in FE you, the player, shouldt want to kill your units. You actively try to keep them alive. Only for SD to make it that, if you want to have all the content, you have to kill off units instead of beating a chapter withen x turns OR keeping a unit alive. When you Iron, you still try to keep them alive you smart ass. It does not go against FE at all since, you still care for your units instead of sending of "useless" ones out to die to unlock a chapter. You missed my point completely. That example is competently different. 

Edited by Emperor
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12 minutes ago, Valkama said:

I actually like the SD gaiden requirements unlike most. While I've personally never been to a gaiden chapter they pretty much exist to get players who screwed up back on their feet. The problem with them ends up being the fanbase is obsessed with keeping all their units alive so most players, even if they are struggling, will never see them and feel like they missed out on content.

 

Thats the thing, the game should not reward you for that. Those characters, the pre pomotes like Nimme and yodel in FE6 exist for those reasons. 

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7 minutes ago, Armagon said:

You have a point. Though FE5 also does Weapon Rank as opposed to FE3's Weapon Level system. So FE5 units with a low sword rank will be disadvantaged. Sure, the Elite Sword exists, but that's one sword vs several dismounted units. Who do you pick?

Also, can we all agree that the Weapon Triangle was implemented horribly in Jugdral? It was either really broken (FE4) or practically non-existent (FE5).

Like Ch.24x's warp traps.

From memory the only units who their indoor sword ranks hurts them are Eda, Glade, Hicks, and probably the scrubs from chapter 9 but I can't remember their weapon ranks. Usually I deploy Glade regardless of his sword rank though for that sweet leadership boost.

I like the weapon triangle in FE5. It's not strong enough to significantly disadvantage you when you are forced to be at a disadvantage but still relevant when trying to make strategies as reliable as possible. Never found the whole rock paper scissors idea to be strategically interesting if I'm to be honest and heroes is imo the worst implementation of it. FE4 just screws over Lex, Johan, and Johalva when the need to fight sword users(especially in the arena) for the most part hit rates are pretty high in FE4 and even at WTD you should be near 100 hit.

The warp tiles are silly but I think overstated. I've always viewed them as a tool to discourage slow play since they don't matter in 16B they can be avoided by using fliers and rescue dropping units and in 24x they can be avoided by using warp staves to hop around the map. Not the best way to discourage slow play though as it usually the makes players frustrated and feel the need to power through it rather than look for alternative better strategies so I'm not in total disagreement with you about them.

6 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Thats the thing, the game should not reward you for that. Those characters, the pre pomotes like Nimme and yodel in FE6 exist for those reasons. 

I don't see a problem. It's not really a reward but a way to ensure players that screwed up big time don't have to reset the whole game which usually leads to players quitting the game. Gaiden characters aren't good but serviceable and can hardly be viewed as a "reward".

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7 minutes ago, Emperor said:

No I meant that, in FE you, the player, shouldt want to kill your units. You actively try to keep them alive.

Yes. In FE, you're also not supposed to reset. If a unit dies, they are gone for good. People reset because it's become instinct.

9 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Only for SD to make it that, if you want to have all the content, you have to kill off units instead of beating a chapter withen x turns OR keeping a unit alive.

But the Gaiden chapters are optional, right? You told me for two pages that Ch.24x in Thracia is a non-issue because it is skipable. Well, so are Shadow Dragon's Gaiden chapters. Shadow Dragon's Gaiden chapters are skipable, so, going by your logic, regardless of what needs to happen to access them, those chapters are a non-issue because they are skipable.

 

8 minutes ago, Emperor said:

When you Iron, you still try to keep them alive you smart ass.

Man, nice insult. 10/10. Why should anyone talk you seriously, honestly? Give me one good reason why anyone should take you seriously at this point? You've already been labeled an elitist by not just me, but several people in this thread. Calling me a smartass probably gives them further reason for people to call you an elitist.

3 minutes ago, Valkama said:

Never found the whole rock paper scissors idea to be strategically interesting

I'm indifferent for the most part but i can agree with this. SoV and FE3 showed me that the Weapon Triangle isn't really necessary, since it'll just boil down to "take out this group of x weapon users with y weapon user". Weapon Triangle matters in the first half of the game+fighting the bosses but other than that, it's not really that great.

4 minutes ago, Valkama said:

heroes is imo the worst implementation of it.

I will disagree with you here though. If you don't pay attention to Heroes' Weapon Triangle, then you're going to lose.

5 minutes ago, Valkama said:

in 24x they can be avoided by using warp staves to hop around the map.

Ch.24x does have Fog of War as well. An unknowing player may end up warping their units right onto a warp trap.

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9 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I will disagree with you here though. If you don't pay attention to Heroes' Weapon Triangle, then you're going to lose.

Yeah that's my point. It's a game of rock paper scissors and I don't care for it.

9 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Ch.24x does have Fog of War as well. An unknowing player may end up warping their units right onto a warp trap.

24x is actually fairly well laid out to prevent that. Both the boss room and Eyvel's room are marked so you can completely avoid the hallways if you wish.

Edit: Chapter 12 would be a better example of FoW causing problems since you really can't know where Salem is until turn 2 when he's probably already put someone to sleep. Though that's less of a problem since sleep isn't too big of a deal as far as status effects go and it's likely done to teach the player about them.

Edited by Valkama
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36 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Yes. In FE, you're also not supposed to reset. If a unit dies, they are gone for good. People reset because it's become instinct.

Not true. You're supposed to play either way. Developers at IS said they themselves reset when their units die. You're not not supposed to do it.

Edited by Nobody
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5 minutes ago, Nobody said:

Not true. You're supposed to play either way. Developers at IS said they themselves reset when their units die. You're not not supposed to do it.

Yeah, the developers themselves reset when their units die. But it's not the intent of the game. When the game teaches you about permadeath, it says "lost units are gone forever". It doesn't say "lost units are gone forever unless you reset". 

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4 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Yeah, the developers themselves reset when their units die. But it's not the intent of the game. When the game teaches you about permadeath, it says "lost units are gone forever". It doesn't say "lost units are gone forever unless you reset". 

You are being obtuse. If the intent was for dead units to stay forever dead, the game would auto save whenever someone died. The intent of the game is being beaten and nothing else. If you can reset to keep your units alive, that might as well be "the intent of the game". Being able to save units through reseting is something so obvious the game doesn't need to teach you, while perma death isn't so obvious, ao the game has to tell you it's a thing. This has nothing to do with not reseting being the "intended way to play".

Edited by Nobody
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