The most underrated Fire emblem game

[Shadow Mir]

22 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Yes I have played Conquest and nah its kinda easy save for the very last map and the map with Taco and the great wall of Hoshido trying to keep everyone alive. AND trying not to put it down for its awful writing. Pair up is legitimately a horrible mechanic. They fixed it compared to awakening. but by end game defense stance is great. And fates does suck dude. Conquest has great maps and good game play but their is no resource management since nothing but tomes and staffs break. No weapon weight is fucking gay and hated New mystery for that, MU is awful, cast is far to pandering. But this is a FE5 is under rated and not a bash on fates thread. 

I beg to differ on guard stance being all that great - personally, I found it much more situational than attack stance (deleting ninjas and mages without needing to eat a counter, and in the case of the former, worry about potentially losing stats, is sweet). Also, I disagree on weight and durability - imo, weight tended to end up rendering some weapons flat out inferior when they shouldn't be, if not outright unusable (See: Bolganone in FE3, Steel Axes and Lances in GBA, Durandal and the Sol Katti in FE7, etc.). Durability has a tendency to promote resource management in all the wrong ways, and it also breeds "Too Awesome To Use" syndrome (I think it's saying something that even Awakening, which had Armsthrift, which had a chance to prevent weapons from losing uses, didn't really get it right).

21 minutes ago, Valkama said:

I don't know man, I find 24x to be hella fun. Anyways I'm not trying to guilt trip you into playing these games I'm just saying it's probably not a good idea to be talking about how good or badly designed a game is when you've never played it. Just a thought.

Okay, but as I see it, when a game has serious glaring design flaws, the probability that I'd actually like said game, much less be able to tolerate it, is very low.

[Emperor]

10 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I beg to differ on guard stance being all that great - personally, I found it much more situational than attack stance (deleting ninjas and mages without needing to eat a counter, and in the case of the former, worry about potentially losing stats, is sweet). Also, I disagree on weight and durability - imo, weight tended to end up rendering some weapons flat out inferior when they shouldn't be, if not outright unusable (See: Bolganone in FE3, Steel Axes and Lances in GBA, Durandal and the Sol Katti in FE7, etc.). Durability has a tendency to promote resource management in all the wrong ways, and it also breeds "Too Awesome To Use" syndrome (I think it's saying something that even Awakening, which had Armsthrift, which had a chance to prevent weapons from losing uses, didn't really get it right).

Okay, but as I see it, when a game has serious glaring design flaws, the probability that I'd actually like said game, much less be able to tolerate it, is very low.

I dont know what difficulty you were playing on but on Hard ( I thought Lunatic would be like awakening lunatic/+ with BS stats so I sadly missed out on that) offensive stance stopped being useful by the time Xander did the really really REALLY stupid thing of killing is own man to save the other royal family. In the beginning it was great but endgame everyone who was not Effie or Xander or the MU, were just stat backpacks just like awakening. 

 

Steel axes and lances were not worse then Iron if you had enough Strength to use them, they were better it just took some time and rightfully so. that and the whole, its to good to use argument is rather flawed. Fire emblem has always been until recently very fucking sadly, very resource driven as one can expect from a game based on war.

If in FE6 HM (playing it right now) if Rutget could just use the Wo Do all the time with out breaking the game would be a cake walk with him and Dick and Clarise all together giving him an Insane 101% crit right all the time. Instead I waited until chapter 21 to blow it. Which is one of the reasons why I loved FE5 alot. Its very resource driven. 

 

 

And like what everyone who has beaten the game said, missing heals, while lame, is not a big deal at all. 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Emperor

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Emperor said:

Conquest has great maps and good game play but their is no resource management since nothing but tomes and staffs break

There is resource management though. I'm not referring to weapon durability. I was referring to gold. It's pretty hard to earn gold in Conquest and less gold=less weapons and equipment, You really gotta figure out who should use what and when.

1 hour ago, Emperor said:

No weapon weight is fucking gay

No weapon weight is actually great because it means that stuff like Pegasus Knight can actually double reliably and aren't hindered by attempting to use more powerful weapons. The speed nerf>>>>>>>weight because the speed nerf is actually really easy to keep track of. So even if a Pegasus Knight attempts to use a more powerful weapon, with the speed nerf, it's not as punishing compared to weight. And eventually, it just becomes negligible.

1 hour ago, Emperor said:

MU is awful

Still a better character than Sigurd.

 

1 hour ago, Emperor said:

And why did you drop Thracia other then missable staves which, is fixable? 

Besides missable heals, i dropped Thracia because Fatigue in this game was stressful. I was afraid of using some of my weaker units because they'll get fatigued faster. The there's Fog of War being bullshit. I mean, it's always bullshit but it's at it's worse in Thracia. I also hated starting the game with zero gold. Listen, i know Leif was on the run and all, but i find it hard to believe that he had absolutely no gold. In order to get gold, you had to capture units and sell their equipment. But capturing is just such a pain since all your stats get halved. I also didn't like how Dismounting was handled in this game. I don't like Dismounting in general. Never liked how it turned everyone into mostly swordies.

I was planning on continuing Thracia regardless of all that because hey, it did have slightly better gameplay than FE4. But then i heard about Ch.24x and i was like "noooooope, i'm done". Yeah, Ch.24x is optional but i'd rather not skip optional chapters in any FE game (unless it's those in Shadow Dragon, as they required you to kill off your units).

41 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Durability has a tendency to promote resource management in all the wrong ways,

I'm indifferent on this matter. Binding Blade, despite how much i love it, does have a resource management problem. It's a game that wants you to use more powerful weapons but those powerful weapons break really easily. Gold isn't that hard to come by but the shops are. So whenever i see a shop, i just tend to buy all the Killer Weapons i can, since those are some of the best weapons in the game and relatively cheap too.

The Silver Card helps.

Blazing Blade and Sacred Stones are more forgiving on the matter. Weaker weapons are more viable than they were in Binding Blade.

Of course, i wouldn't mind if we got unbreakable weapons from now on. Though i do prefer SoV's method of handling it (i'm well aware that SoV was built around that and it's other unique mechanics and it wouldn't transfer well into a different FE game).

36 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Fire emblem has always been until recently very fucking sadly, very resource driven as one can expect from a game based on war.

A game based on wars where a teenage noble takes his tiny army and crashes it into the biggest threat on the continent and wins without losing a single man. Totally realistic, am i right?

No, but i have to disagree with this. Even with the newer games, i do feel that i have to properly manage my resources. SoV for example, had me deciding who should use the Ridersbane and when. Conquest wasn't very generous with money, so buying the better equipment wasn't exactly easy, so i had to decide when was the best time to buy something.

[Emperor]

Alot of your complaints seem rather casual my dude. You want to double with peg knights so you are fine with removing weapon weapon? Peg nights are great units but being able to fly and double so early is broken. And the """fix""" in Fates is really stupid, getting debuffed for using silver every time I used it in a round of combat, makes no sense and turns silver useless since if I am holding a point after getting attacked by 5 dudes Effie or who ever else is a fucking ton weaker and even if I switch weapons I will still have that annoying buff. ill just stick with Iron or maybe killing wepons like I did.  And I dont know if you are just joking but saying that Corrin, one of the biggest Mary sues who can do no wrong is a better chracter then sigurd is laughable. And the whole gold thing is moot since one you have the weapons, you have them for ever. And how can you not keep track of the wepon weight formula its not that hard and shows if you will double or get doubled before you attack in GBA games and you just need 4 more speed to double (5 in TRS and 1 in Echoes) 

 

Hating on the fatigue system shows that you barely played its not a big deal at all. Just make sure you use different units and if you want, buy some pots. Its a cool concept that makes you use other units. And I dont know why you mentioned leaf having no gold, just kidnap people with Finn and evelthin and the other axe users. You will have lots of money in no time if you play the game right. 

 

Also I forgot to mention this before but hating on Kaga/Thracia is kinda silly since it was Thracia that introduced Split routes AND gaiden chapters. And FE4 introduced skills that the GBA games removed. Thankfully PoR put them back in. 

And chapter 24x is not even that hard if you are turned down playing a game that became the core of modern FE, because of one """chapter""" I dont know what to say. 

 

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Emperor said:

I dont know what difficulty you were playing on but on Hard ( I thought Lunatic would be like awakening lunatic/+ with BS stats so I sadly missed out on that) offensive stance stopped being useful by the time Xander did the really really REALLY stupid thing of killing is own man to save the other royal family. In the beginning it was great but endgame everyone who was not Effie or Xander or the MU, were just stat backpacks just like awakening. 

 

Steel axes and lances were not worse then Iron if you had enough Strength to use them, they were better it just took some time and rightfully so. that and the whole, its to good to use argument is rather flawed. Fire emblem has always been until recently very fucking sadly, very resource driven as one can expect from a game based on war.

If in FE6 HM (playing it right now) if Rutget could just use the Wo Do all the time with out breaking the game would be a cake walk with him and Dick and Clarise all together giving him an Insane 101% crit right all the time. Instead I waited until chapter 21 to blow it. Which is one of the reasons why I loved FE5 alot. Its very resource driven. 

 

 

And like what everyone who has beaten the game said, missing heals, while lame, is not a big deal at all. 

I generally found Guard Stance useful every now and then, but the hit boost from attack stance tends to be the clincher against some of the particularly hard to hit stuff, like Kotaro in chapter 17 and the Kitsunes. Pair up also comes with the cost of using two units' turns at once, and unlike in Awakening, that's not a negligible cost to constantly pay; also, fiendlng units just to be stat backpacks is blowing units slots I could've put to better use imho.. Also, I was playing on hard.

That's in the Tellius saga and SD, not the GBA games, which I mentioned (Con was used to determine AS in GBA). And that's another thing - weight always shafted certain units depending on the game.

I'd say more recent games are still resource driven, albeit in a different way than usual.

You may believe that, but constantly repeating that ad nauseum doesn't make it true, as far as I'm concerned. And it's more than just healing staves missing that paints an unflattering picture of Thracia.

55 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Alot of your complaints seem rather casual my dude. You want to double with peg knights so you are fine with removing weapon weapon? Peg nights are great units but being able to fly and double so early is broken. And the """fix""" in Fates is really stupid, getting debuffed for using silver every time I used it in a round of combat, makes no sense and turns silver useless since if I am holding a point after getting attacked by 5 dudes Effie or who ever else is a fucking ton weaker and even if I switch weapons I will still have that annoying buff. ill just stick with Iron or maybe killing wepons like I did.  And I dont know if you are just joking but saying that Corrin, one of the biggest Mary sues who can do no wrong is a better chracter then sigurd is laughable. And the whole gold thing is moot since one you have the weapons, you have them for ever. And how can you not keep track of the wepon weight formula its not that hard and shows if you will double or get doubled before you attack in GBA games and you just need 4 more speed to double (5 in TRS and 1 in Echoes) 

 

Hating on the fatigue system shows that you barely played its not a big deal at all. Just make sure you use different units and if you want, buy some pots. Its a cool concept that makes you use other units. And I dont know why you mentioned leaf having no gold, just kidnap people with Finn and evelthin and the other axe users. You will have lots of money in no time if you play the game right. 

 

Also I forgot to mention this before but hating on Kaga/Thracia is kinda silly since it was Thracia that introduced Split routes AND gaiden chapters. And FE4 introduced skills that the GBA games removed. Thankfully PoR put them back in. 

And chapter 24x is not even that hard if you are turned down playing a game that became the core of modern FE, because of one """chapter""" I dont know what to say. 

 

With pegasus knights in general not exactly being strong, they'd likely need stronger weapons to make up for this. But I see a big problem when they lose a non-trivial amount of speed if they want to use a stronger weapon (Case in point: pegasus knights in the GBA games). Mages in FE7 and FE8 were hardly any better off. Also, I'm not really seeing how pegasus knights are broken when they're likely doing less damage than most other units starting out. As for Fates and silver weapons, I found them to have uses for dual strikes or if I needed to finish off an enemy; on the other hand, killer weapons in Fates were practically pointless - iron level Mt at a point where I might consider steel better to use?? No thank you. WRT Sigurd, I dare say he crosses the line into Gary Stu territory. Also, wasn't it only 3 speed over the opponent to double in FE3?

I disagree - I shouldn't have to deal with the game arbitrarily telling me "no, you can't use this unit for this chapter". And frankly, if I don't care enough about most of the cast to want to constantly use different units, that's another problem.

I'll give the Jugdral games credit for introducing skills and such, but to be blunt, I think Kaga dropped the ball HARD design wise with the Jugdral saga.

I'd be willing to say there's more than that that he sees as a dealbreaker regarding Thracia.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Armagon]

59 minutes ago, Emperor said:

And I dont know if you are just joking but saying that Corrin, one of the biggest Mary sues who can do no wrong is a better chracter then sigurd is laughable.

I'm not joking about this. I really do see Corrin being better than Sigurd. Because at least i can remember Corrin's personality. Also, Sigurd did nothing wrong either. He got unlucky in the end but nothing was his fault. He just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Plus, I didn't like how Sigurd is a pre-promote. Most Lords start out in their base classes and they grow as the game progresses. Sigurd? Nah, he just starts the game overpowered.

1 hour ago, Emperor said:

Alot of your complaints seem rather casual my dude

Except they aren't. But if they were, does that invalidate my complaints? No. I don't have to write an essay just to state my complaints.

1 hour ago, Emperor said:

And how can you not keep track of the wepon weight formula its not that hard and shows if you will double or get doubled before you attack in GBA games and you just need 4 more speed to double (5 in TRS and 1 in Echoes) 

I was referring to Con. It's something like "speed-con-weight" or some bullshit like that. I don't math.

1 hour ago, Emperor said:

Hating on the fatigue system shows that you barely played its not a big deal at all. Just make sure you use different units and if you want, buy some pots. Its a cool concept that makes you use other units.

Yes, i've heard the "but it makes you use different units" argument. It doesn't make fatigue better. Why should i be forced to use units that i don't want to use?

1 hour ago, Emperor said:

And I dont know why you mentioned leaf having no gold, just kidnap people with Finn and evelthin and the other axe users. You will have lots of money in no time if you play the game right. 

Capturing is a pain in the ass. And this also adds to fatigue. Because if keep doing that, then i can't use Finn and Evyel anymore.

1 hour ago, Emperor said:

Also I forgot to mention this before but hating on Kaga/Thracia is kinda silly since it was Thracia that introduced Split routes AND gaiden chapters.

I'll give them credit but that doesn't mean i have to like them.

1 hour ago, Emperor said:

And chapter 24x is not even that hard

Funny, i've heard literally everyone say Ch.24x is one of the hardest in the series. Whether you have fun with it or not is a different matter altogether.

1 hour ago, Emperor said:

if you are turned down playing a game that became the core of modern FE

Correction: Thracia introduced the core of modern FE. The games after it improved upon it in many ways.

35 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'd be willing to say there's more than that that he sees as a dealbreaker regarding Thracia.

Yeah, there's more to the dealbreakers regarding Thracia, it's just Ch.24x was the final nail in the coffin. That chapter basically just takes everything that made Thracia bad and put it all in one map. Fog of War, permanent status ailments, you name it. Oh, and that chapter has warp traps, which sends the unfortunate unit into a room with no escape, and there are also enemies in that room. It's one of Kaga's biggest "fuck yous".

[Shadow Mir]

12 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Funny, i've heard literally everyone say Ch.24x is one of the hardest in the series. Whether you have fun with it or not is a different matter altogether.

I wouldn't say it's hard - rather, that it's extremely poorly designed.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emperor]

The fact that being """forced""" to use other units because of the fatigue system bugs you, because the games wants you to use other units which once again anyone who has played the game will say its not a big deal turns you off and an optional chapter that is not that good turns you off is a petty and casual. Plenty of FE games have bad chapters. conquest has that fucking wind map which is pure cancer. and that's not optional. I get heal staves missing is lame and I agree but like anyone who has played FE5 will say it, just like the fatigue system is a non issue. you can buy stam pots ignoring the whole problem. And I never personally understood the hate of the FoW in Thracia, yea you cant see anything but so what? Get a torch and its a non issue. every one of your problems with the exception of warp tiles which is bs I will agree. But only chapter 24x and that one map in the forest have it,  both optional. And yea I got confused with map 24 and 24x. I dont think I met the requirements to do it and/or just ran away from it. But its still optional and every game has a shit map or two. Like conquest. I dont understand how that is even a point against thracia when every game has a bad map. 

 

Also to say the core of FE was improved upon by thracia is funny. GBA removed Skills and slightly brought them back in SS with some promoted classes having a skill or 2 and Kidnapping. Also Awakening removed Weapon weight AND rescue AND split routes AND gaiden chapters. I really dislike awakening and hate fates. The franchise has been on the decline after the Snes. Exception being PoR since it has skills, rescue and shove and support convos which I forgot to mention FE4 kinda laid the foundations for it. Also most lords have to work to get their weapon, Corrin just some how, because of fates awful writing gets his Yato because lol. But I dont want to get off topic here. But yea honestly I think we are just gonna end up going in circles and have been already. 

 

 

[NoNameAtAll]

I'm sorry, but while I love Thracia, 24x's design is not defensible. At all. The warp tiles that you have NO clue about (and outright didn't encounter if you went the route where you can get Sleuf and Amalda) not only screw you up, they send your characters to a death trap that they can't escape from unless you have rescue or rewarp staffs. There's no defending that shit. Not to mention your reward is...saving Eyvel.

Who sucks by this point.

And I say this as someone who loves Thracia.

Edited August 19, 2017 by NoNameAtAll

[Valkama]

I do really like 24x as a map but that's cause it's a map where I get to deploy basically all of my staff users and go wild. I understand it's not a very favorable map for blind runners but once you know what your doing is a pretty fun map imo. It's a map where staves can be used freely in a beneficial way and it doesn't feel like your breaking it and I really like that.

[Armagon]

6 minutes ago, Emperor said:

The fact that being """forced""" to use other units because of the fatigue system bugs you, because the games wants you to use other units which once again anyone who has played the game will say its not a big deal turns you off and an optional chapter that is not that good turns you off is a petty and casual.

Just because "everyone says it's not a big deal" doesn't mean i have to agree with them.

7 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Plenty of FE games have bad chapters. conquest has that fucking wind map which is pure cancer. and that's not optional.

Yeah but does Fuga's Wild Ride have invisible warp traps that send your units into an inescapable room with enemies? No.

9 minutes ago, Emperor said:

And I never personally understood the hate of the FoW in Thracia, yea you cant see anything but so what? Get a torch and its a non issue.

"Do this and it's a non issue" seems to be your anwser to everything. Just because there's a "fix" for something doesn't make it good. Fog of War has always been hated on, not just in Thracia, but in other games. But at least in other games, you can at least see the terrain.

10 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Like conquest. I dont understand how that is even a point against thracia when every game has a bad map. 

Yes, every game has it's bad maps but Ch.24x is among the worst. Just because other games have bad maps doesn't excuse Thracia from having them. 

I will say, overall, Thracia does have better maps than Genealogy. Because at least they aren't massive slogs with occasionally backtracking.

13 minutes ago, Emperor said:

The franchise has been on the decline after the Snes.

No offense but this is the most elitist thing you've said. I don't even know if i should take you seriously anymore.

 

[Shadow Mir]

20 minutes ago, Emperor said:

The fact that being """forced""" to use other units because of the fatigue system bugs you, because the games wants you to use other units which once again anyone who has played the game will say its not a big deal turns you off and an optional chapter that is not that good turns you off is a petty and casual. Plenty of FE games have bad chapters. conquest has that fucking wind map which is pure cancer. and that's not optional. I get heal staves missing is lame and I agree but like anyone who has played FE5 will say it, just like the fatigue system is a non issue. you can buy stam pots ignoring the whole problem. And I never personally understood the hate of the FoW in Thracia, yea you cant see anything but so what? Get a torch and its a non issue. every one of your problems with the exception of warp tiles which is bs I will agree. But only chapter 24x and that one map in the forest have it,  both optional. And yea I got confused with map 24 and 24x. I dont think I met the requirements to do it and/or just ran away from it. But its still optional and every game has a shit map or two. Like conquest. I dont understand how that is even a point against thracia when every game has a bad map. 

 

Also to say the core of FE was improved upon by thracia is funny. GBA removed Skills and slightly brought them back in SS with some promoted classes having a skill or 2 and Kidnapping. Also Awakening removed Weapon weight AND rescue AND split routes AND gaiden chapters. I really dislike awakening and hate fates. The franchise has been on the decline after the Snes. Exception being PoR since it has skills, rescue and shove and support convos which I forgot to mention FE4 kinda laid the foundations for it. Also most lords have to work to get their weapon, Corrin just some how, because of fates awful writing gets his Yato because lol. But I dont want to get off topic here. But yea honestly I think we are just gonna end up going in circles and have been already. 

True, but 24x in Thracia puts pretty much whatever other bad map you can think of in the series to shame, because it's that poorly designed. Also, you may assert that heal staves missing is a non-issue, but again, that's an unacceptable answer to me, because healing skills shouldn't be able to miss in the first place (and I can't even remember any other RPG where healing skills can miss anyway). And again, you might say fatigue isn't a big deal, but there's no way I'll agree.

Bold: Ha. I can't see it when two of the SNES FEs are among the worst in the series IMO. The stench of elitism this statement reeks of is so nauseating, you're starting to look like you're not worth taking seriously any more...

Edited August 20, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emperor]

10 minutes ago, Armagon said:

No offense but this is the most elitist thing you've said. I don't even know if i should take you seriously anymore.

 

 

Well it has, dude. GBA removed Skills did it fucking not? and I fucking love the GBA games

Does fates and awakening have gaiden maps and/or split routes? Did they also remove rescue AND shove? And I started with awakening. it has gone backwards. PoR went in the right direction and is the only game that added something new other then awakening with pair up which is awful. And people who complain about FoW in other games are casuals. it really is not that big of a deal and adds the unknown into the scene. I always liked FoW maps but that is just me. And all the maps that you dont like with warps are skippable their bad but unlike the wind map which is pure bullshit, I cant skip that one. First time playing thracia I skipped all the warp tiles. I keep on saying its not a big deal becuase it is not a big deal if you can just skip the shit maps which there are a grand total of 2. I dont get the deal with not being able to see the terrain of the map honestly though. Shit is dark deal with it and git gud. Or use a tourch like every other game. At least it does not have a sneak mission. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Bold: Ha. I can't see it when two of the SNES FEs are among the worst in the series IMO. The stench of elitism this statement reeks of is so nauseating, you're starting to look like you're not worth taking seriously any more...

Read above. Being an elitist has nothing to do with it. FE6 added Support convos and 9 added in Shove, both great additions but what did the awakening and fates add? Pair up which is an awful mechanic and replaced a great one (rescue) and face touching? While removing weapon weight, durability etc etc. 

 

   

[Emperor]

Also saying SoV as your favorite but going on about the same map in Thracia being awful is weird since Echoes/gaiden has the worst maps in the franchise. ALL being open grass lands. Maybe awakening beats it but its been a while so I dont know which one was worse. 

[Shadow Mir]

11 minutes ago, Emperor said:

 

Well it has, dude. GBA removed Skills did it fucking not? and I fucking love the GBA games

Does fates and awakening have gaiden maps and/or split routes? Did they also remove rescue AND shove? And I started with awakening. it has gone backwards. PoR went in the right direction and is the only game that added something new other then awakening with pair up which is awful. And people who complain about FoW in other games are casuals. it really is not that big of a deal and adds the unknown into the scene. I always liked FoW maps but that is just me. And all the maps that you dont like with warps are skippable their bad but unlike the wind map which is pure bullshit, I cant skip that one. First time playing thracia I skipped all the warp tiles. I keep on saying its not a big deal becuase it is not a big deal if you can just skip the shit maps which there are a grand total of 2. I dont get the deal with not being able to see the terrain of the map honestly though. Shit is dark deal with it and git gud. Or use a tourch like every other game. At least it does not have a sneak mission. 

 

 

Read above. Being an elitist has nothing to do with it. FE6 added Support convos and 9 added in Shove, both great additions but what did the awakening and fates add? Pair up which is an awful mechanic and replaced a great one (rescue) and face touching? While removing weapon weight, durability etc etc. 

Dude. You are NOT helping your case. AT ALL. The only thing you're accomplishing is digging yourself deeper. If I were you, I'd quit while you're behind. Also, Fates does have Shove and Rescue (aka Shelter), for your information, and the face touching caused such a stink that people were calling for its removal even before the game was set to be released overseas. And once again, I don't see what durability and weight brought to the table that would make them worth bringing back, especially the latter.

9 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Also saying SoV as your favorite but going on about the same map in Thracia being awful is weird since Echoes/gaiden has the worst maps in the franchise. ALL being open grass lands. Maybe awakening beats it but its been a while so I dont know which one was worse. 

Hey, I'll admit, I haven't played Shadows of Valentia, but I have a VERY hard time seeing its map design as being worse than Genealogy and its bloated maps that are a huge slog to play through.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emperor]

Why should I quit while am ahead? Did GBA games not remove skills? This is a fact I love them but compared to the SNES they are lacking. And yes Ik fates had Shelter but its no where NEAR the same thing as rescue. Shelter is Pair up but you dont pair up with that unit, that unit goes to you (I dont know how to word it any better but you get the idea) Rescue has sever draw backs and can get that unit killed. The skill shelter is not the same as rescue so you cant compare them as they have different out comes on both units. A unit is hindered greatly with Rescue. 

 

And Genealogy maps are not bloated they are meant to really capture the size and scope of the country you are in. I liked it personally but I can see why some dont. Cavs are also my favorite unit. Compared to Awakening/echoes where its just one huge empty lot (that fucking tree map in awakening with NO defense tiles aka just a fucking grid). Echoes was saved by its writing which was great and I recommended just for that. Favorite 3ds game by far. 

[Valkama]

9 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Hey, I'll admit, I haven't played Shadows of Valentia, but I have a VERY hard time seeing its map design as being worse than Genealogy and its bloated maps that are a huge slog to play through.

Not to turn this into an SoV hate thread but it's quite easy to make a map better than an SoV map. Simply add anything remotely resembling a side objective and you have a better map. When your game is entirely made of rout maps with 0 things to do other than kill enemies and half your maps have little to no terrain worth speaking of it's pretty easy for any game in the series to have better maps. While the game still has merits to it the maps are easily of the worst in the series, well that or OG Gaiden.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Valkama

[Emperor]

14 minutes ago, Valkama said:

Not to turn this into an SoV hate thread but it's quite easy to make a map better than an SoV map. Simply add anything remotely resembling a side objective and you have a better map. When your game is entirely made of rout maps with 0 things to do other than kill enemies and half your maps have little to no terrain worth speaking of it's pretty easy for any game in the series to have better maps. While the game still has merits to it the maps are easily of the worst in the series, well that or OG Gaiden.

Awakening some how did the impossible and made a worse map. And fates brought it up in DLC for some reason. No defense tiles at all. Its just a grid. A lousy 21x28 grid on a jpeg of tree roots...  

[Von Ithipathachai]

36 minutes ago, Emperor said:

The franchise has been on the decline since after the SNES.  Exception being Path of Radiance since it has Skills, Rescue and Shove and Support conversations, which I forgot to mention FE4 kinda laid the foundations for.

...

And Genealogy maps are not bloated, they are meant to really capture the size and scope of the country you are in.  I liked them personally, but I can see why some don't.

Perhaps you're right if we're talking solely about story, but there are simply too many issues with both Jugdral games for that statement to be agreeable except to other Jugdral fans.

Genealogy of the Holy War's story is very good, but if the game itself is sloggy to play through with oversized maps and atrocious balancing issues.  Further elaborating on the maps, making them less fun to actually play for the sake of storytelling is absolutely bass-ackwards design.  If I may insert my two cents, if your game design decision is going to negatively impact it being fun to play for the sake of something as utterly secondary as story, then you probably shouldn't go through with it.  The story should bend over backwards for the game, not the other way around.  If your story is good, but the game surrounding it is not fun to play, then you're honestly better off simply reading a book instead.  (Conveniently, Genealogy of the Holy War has a manga that I'm seriously considering checking out for this very reason.)

As for Thracia 776, I certainly like it more than Genealogy of the Holy War for its challenging and memorable map design and significantly improved balancing, but not even I can ignore that it has its share of seriously unfair moments that detract from the overall experience.  I won't go into further detail about Chapter 24x (and to a lesser extent Chapter 16B) since we've already talked about those enough.  What I'm really upset with is the Escape from Manster arc.  How the heck is anyone supposed to know without a walkthrough or other prior knowledge that only Leif and Lifis out of all your current units would be usable in the next map, and furthermore that whatever items they may have had (which may or may not even be useful) will be taken from them and randomly scattered in chests?

...You know what?  Maybe we should just stop arguing.  We've derailed this "underrated FE games" thread plenty.

[Emperor]

14 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Perhaps you're right if we're talking solely about story, but there are simply too many issues with both Jugdral games for that statement to be agreeable except to other Jugdral fans.

Genealogy of the Holy War's story is very good, but if the game itself is sloggy to play through with oversized maps and atrocious balancing issues.  Further elaborating on the maps, making them less fun to actually play for the sake of storytelling is absolutely bass-ackwards design.  If I may insert my two cents, if your game design decision is going to negatively impact it being fun to play for the sake of something as utterly secondary as story, then you probably shouldn't go through with it.  The story should bend over backwards for the game, not the other way around.  If your story is good, but the game surrounding it is not fun to play, then you're honestly better off simply reading a book instead.  (Conveniently, Genealogy of the Holy War has a manga that I'm seriously considering checking out for this very reason.)

As for Thracia 776, I certainly like it more than Genealogy of the Holy War for its challenging and memorable map design and significantly improved balancing, but not even I can ignore that it has its share of seriously unfair moments that detract from the overall experience.  I won't go into further detail about Chapter 24x (and to a lesser extent Chapter 16B) since we've already talked about those enough.  What I'm really upset with is the Escape from Manster arc.  How the heck is anyone supposed to know without a walkthrough or other prior knowledge that only Leif and Lifis out of all your current units would be usable in the next map, and furthermore that whatever items they may have had (which may or may not even be useful) will be taken from them and randomly scattered in chests?

...You know what?  Maybe we should just stop arguing.  We've derailed this "underrated FE games" thread plenty.

Nah lets keep on going and see what happens. 

 

 

Nah I fucking loved the chase and there is nothing wrong with the game throwing you a curve ball. I did not know that was gonna happen and I got by just fine. Then again FE6 is my favorite GBA so maybe I am just a masochist. Thracia was my, like 10th game or so in the series so I loved how different that arc was and it was actually my favorite. Running from the law and all that. I wont get into FE4 that much but I just think its a matter of taste. Some people hate big maps, some love em. I love horse units so I love the big maps. But I see why you and others dont. I do agree the story should bow to the game play though but I personally did not mind it.  Can't wait until the Echoes team remakes FE4. 

And when I say decline I meant more so they dont add anything new and take out to much stuff. Like dismounting. Sending Karrin with a levin sword to take down a ballista after dismounting felt great. And there was no reason to remove skills in FE6

 

 

But if they would have removed everything near the end, then I think that would have crossed the line into bullshit since you wont have enough time to restock. It happend rather early so there was plenty of time to restock on items. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Emperor

[Armagon]

39 minutes ago, Emperor said:

And people who complain about FoW in other games are casuals. it really is not that big of a deal and adds the unknown into the scene.

10/10 elitist comment.

40 minutes ago, Emperor said:

First time playing thracia I skipped all the warp tiles

Did you use a guide? Because said warp tiles are invisible. I doubt you skipped all of them on your first playthrough, unless you went in using a guide.

28 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Did GBA games not remove skills? This is a fact I love them but compared to the SNES they are lacking.

But compared to the SNES games, the GBA games have better gameplay. On that note, Mystery of the Emblem has better gameplay than Jugdral. 

41 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Also saying SoV as your favorite but going on about the same map in Thracia being awful is weird since Echoes/gaiden has the worst maps in the franchise.

Because map design is the only thing that matters amiright?

I won't deny SoV's map design is pretty mediocre but i'd much rather have them over the massive slogs that are Geneaolgy's maps. I'd also rather have SoV's maps over Thracia's Ch.24x.

33 minutes ago, Emperor said:

And Genealogy maps are not bloated they are meant to really capture the size and scope of the country you are in.

From a gameplay standpoint, Geneaolgy's maps are objectively bloated. It fits in with the narrative and all but from a gameplay standpoint, Geneaolgy's maps are garbage and further emphasize why that game is called Horse Emblem: Genealogy of why Infantry Units Suck in this Game.

11 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

(Conveniently, Genealogy of the Holy War has a manga that I'm seriously considering checking out for this very reason.)

That manga is actually pretty good. In general, i find the Fire Emblem mangas to tell the stories better than the games themselves. I was able to appreciate Shadow Dragon and Binding Blade more after reading their respective mangas (Hasha no Tsurugi is my favorite FE manga). I wish more FE games got mangas. I know Gaiden, Mystery, and Thracia got one. Fates and Awakening got spin-off mangas. And i think that's it. Would be nice to see a Tellius manga.

Best thing i liked about the FE4 manga was that it made Sigurd an actually good character. Now if only he was good in the actual game.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Emperor said:

Why should I quit while am ahead? Did GBA games not remove skills? This is a fact I love them but compared to the SNES they are lacking. And yes Ik fates had Shelter but its no where NEAR the same thing as rescue. Shelter is Pair up but you dont pair up with that unit, that unit goes to you (I dont know how to word it any better but you get the idea) Rescue has sever draw backs and can get that unit killed. The skill shelter is not the same as rescue so you cant compare them as they have different out comes on both units. A unit is hindered greatly with Rescue. 

 

And Genealogy maps are not bloated they are meant to really capture the size and scope of the country you are in. I liked it personally but I can see why some dont. Cavs are also my favorite unit. Compared to Awakening/echoes where its just one huge empty lot (that fucking tree map in awakening with NO defense tiles aka just a fucking grid). Echoes was saved by its writing which was great and I recommended just for that. Favorite 3ds game by far. 

I did NOT say "quit while you're ahead"; also, I said that because your statement is literally the Fire Emblem equivalent of Genwunner talk. Anyway, gameplay wise, FE3 might not have had all the bells and whistles that the Jugdral games had, but as far as I'm concerned, it didn't need them. And I'd say the GBA games have better gameplay relative to the SNES games.

Which, as far as I'm concerned, is a really fancy way of saying, gameplay wise, they're objectively bloated - it's pretty obvious something ain't right when I have to spend at least three turns of empty movement before one side starts trying to bash the other's brains in. And while I like cavaliers, the extent to which Genealogy favours them is just disgusting.

1 hour ago, Valkama said:

Not to turn this into an SoV hate thread but it's quite easy to make a map better than an SoV map. Simply add anything remotely resembling a side objective and you have a better map. When your game is entirely made of rout maps with 0 things to do other than kill enemies and half your maps have little to no terrain worth speaking of it's pretty easy for any game in the series to have better maps. While the game still has merits to it the maps are easily of the worst in the series, well that or OG Gaiden.

The only maps in Gaiden/SoV that I would say are bad are the desert fort and the swamp maps -  that's honestly nothing compared to a game where literally every map falls victim to the same fundamental pitfalls.

51 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Awakening some how did the impossible and made a worse map. And fates brought it up in DLC for some reason. No defense tiles at all. Its just a grid. A lousy 21x28 grid on a jpeg of tree roots...  

Looks like a better map than.... oh, all of Genealogy's, if you ask me.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Quote

But compared to the SNES games, the GBA games have better gameplay.

FE6 has definitely no better gameplay than FE5, quite the opposite, it went two steps back by bringing only seize missions back.

[Emperor]

4 hours ago, Armagon said:

10/10 elitist comment.

 

I legit dont know what to tell you if fog of war bugs you. I prefer the FoW of thracia but my favorite GBA is FE6 so am just a masochist. I never understood how anybody has an issue with a bit of darkness. Its a nice spice

 

4 hours ago, Armagon said:

 

Did you use a guide? Because said warp tiles are invisible. I doubt you skipped all of them on your first playthrough, unless you went in using a guid

Nah I meant by skip I skiped the maps. I said I did not do 24x and I chose another route, the route with the best maps in FE. Like I dont get the complaint of warp tiles yea they are shit but just avoid the route. And the game gives you alot of warp and rescue staves AND a hammerine staff so it gives you alot of options. 

 

4 hours ago, Armagon said:

 

But compared to the SNES games, the GBA games have better gameplay. On that note, Mystery of the Emblem has better gameplay than Jugdral. 

 

FE6 only had Seize and FE8 was fucking piss poor easy(Dont know what they were thinking with Seth). So eh. I was talking about in terms of mechanics and innovations the GBA pushed out, which were alot. I am not saying FE6 7 or 8 are better or worse, just they removed alot and added nothing other then support convos that FE6 brought in. PoR adding some of the stuff that was lost from FE6 and Shove and fixed how gaining support worked, thank goodness. But Then the franchise removed alot of those once again by the time NM came out. 

 

4 hours ago, Armagon said:

 

Because map design is the only thing that matters amiright?

I won't deny SoV's map design is pretty mediocre but i'd much rather have them over the massive slogs that are Geneaolgy's maps. I'd also rather have SoV's maps over Thracia's Ch.24x.

And map design is not the only thing that matters you are right. But it is a big deal in FE. but Echoes also has no weapon durability since Gaiden had it, which is pretty lame. And you keep on going about 24x every other map in thracia is great. Other then 16b I think it was. 

 

4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I did NOT say "quit while you're ahead"; also, I said that because your statement is literally the Fire Emblem equivalent of Genwunner talk. Anyway, gameplay wise, FE3 might not have had all the bells and whistles that the Jugdral games had, but as far as I'm concerned, it didn't need them. And I'd say the GBA games have better gameplay relative to the SNES games.

 

There was no reason to remove skills or dismounting in FE6. The series went back by removing it. Thankfully PoR brought it back in. And like I said I understand why people dont like FE4 maps I really do. What I dont get is when people say FE5 is not that good, or sucks or etc etc because the FoW cant let you see terrain or stamina or heals missing, when once again its not a big deal. 

There is alot more to a game then one fucking map.

 

And that last statement is just fucking wow. Speechless. 

4 hours ago, Armagon said:

 

Because map design is the only thing that matters amiright?

I won't deny SoV's map design is pretty mediocre but i'd much rather have them over the massive slogs that are Geneaolgy's maps. I'd also rather have SoV's maps over Thracia's Ch.24x.

 

Find it funny you say this but keep on harping about one map. Anyways we are going around in circles again ill check out that FE4 manga did not know it was a thing. 

[Sweet_Basil]

Thracia is a really good game it's just not very friendly, at least not for a first blind run. I remember escaping the first time with Leaf and on the next map he was alone so I had to restart. It does a lot of neat things though in particular capturing, its really fun and so much better than Fates. I like the concept that the "unusable" characters don't necessarily need to be benchwarmers because of the scrolls and fatigue, although they're probably benched anyway since there's a lot of characters.