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blackestheart13

New Here, Questions naturally!

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Hello All,

Thanks for taking the time to read the rantings of a rather mediocre Conquest player. I've beaten the game once on BR and Conquest and then almost beat Rev and then got mad for some reason and wiped all my data! SO now I'm doing Conquest HM and I am at the mercy of the RNG constantly. Currently at Ch. 20 or 21 before I snapped my 3DS...whichever has the wind gusts.

Team: Paladins Corrin, Silas, Xander, and Peri, Songstress Azura, Wyvern Lords Beruka and Camilla, Magic Nuke Elise, Staff and Support bots Shura and Jakob, DK Leo, and Fliers Effie and Selena (DF and FK respectively) for my core team. I don't really wanna have to boo camp my team up to snuff but I feel like my team is just not cut out and don't wanna restart after trucking it THIS far. Recommendations for reclasses or something that may help?

On another note, when I do wander into other people's castles how do they have these Lv20 Ryoma SMs with like 90 HP?? And these skill setups that are beyond crazy. Just Einherjar stuff or how...?

 

Thanks! My new 3DS will arrive Thursday so hopefully I can get some tips and help to calm myself and plan better!

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Hmm, that seems pretty solid for a team, though usually Effie is pretty good at being a general, given Beruka and Camilla are wyvern lords their defense should be good to compensate, the only main advice I could offer is maybe try incorporating another mage user such as Ophelia, maybe a hero like Laslow or Soleil, and maybe try using Charlotte as she is really good as a berserker with a killer axe. Beyond that grinding may be the only option unless you go all out forging, I know I had to grind on my conquest playthrough. To answer the Ryoma question, if they did have 90 hp that'd be hacking, but getting Ryoma to level 20 isn't hard and give him the right skills and he's good.

Also welcome to the forest!

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First, what are everyone'e stats? Second, slow and steady wins the race.

As for the Ryoma question, it's obviously hacking.

2 minutes ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

maybe try using Charlotte as she is really good as a berserker with a killer axe.

I disagree - she's hard to train, and Berserkers are rather risky with little in the way of reward.

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3 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I disagree - she's hard to train, and Berserkers are rather risky with little in the way of reward.

I don't want to start a debate, but for me at least Charlotte is good, yeah at the start she is hard to train somewhat, but I did it and she turned out good and was a great unit for me. But she's optional to train so do whatever. I think I have a thing for training units people hate for being under-leveled or hard to train and making them monsters of war (cases in point, Amelia and Charlotte)

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1 hour ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

I don't want to start a debate, but for me at least Charlotte is good, yeah at the start she is hard to train somewhat, but I did it and she turned out good and was a great unit for me. But she's optional to train so do whatever. I think I have a thing for training units people hate for being under-leveled or hard to train and making them monsters of war (cases in point, Amelia and Charlotte)

Amelia, I don't really mind working with - she's in a game with grinding as an option, and I generally don't have to worry about her missing much when trying to get her up to speed. Charlotte, on the other hand, honestly tends to miss quite often, in addition to being in a class that's stunk it up time and time again.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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It's pretty easy to improve Charlotte's hitrates. Removing Gamble and giving her an Iron is +15% hit. She has WTA vs lances/shurikens and can use the Dual Club for Swords/Magic. If you put her in Hero she can have WTA vs Axe/Bow users too. Then there's also support boosts/tonics/etc.

She won't have 100% hitrates all the time but it definitely makes her more reliable. 

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7 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Amelia, I don't really mind working with - she's in a game with grinding as an option, and I generally don't have to worry about her missing much when trying to get her up to speed. Charlotte, on the other hand, honestly tends to miss quite often, in addition to being in a class that's stunk it up time and time again.

That is true, conquest is not a game where grinding is easy, again personal experience with charlotte, and I also normally don't use axe units, but Charlotte is an exception

5 hours ago, avengerfive said:

It's pretty easy to improve Charlotte's hitrates. Removing Gamble and giving her an Iron is +15% hit. She has WTA vs lances/shurikens and can use the Dual Club for Swords/Magic. If you put her in Hero she can have WTA vs Axe/Bow users too. Then there's also support boosts/tonics/etc.

She won't have 100% hitrates all the time but it definitely makes her more reliable. 

Yeah removing Gamble is a given, and as a Berserker she will gain an increase in crits, maybe slap death blow on her and give her a killer axe and you get 100% (or near it) crit rates, which is what makes Charlotte viable in my opinion, as she has high attack, maybe below average normal hit rate, but her when her naturally high crit rate gets boosted even higher, then she just about always hits, due to criticals only happening when the unit hits. Which is why in my build for her on any save file, it's always skills that boost her crit rate and minor accuracy boosts alongside skills such as aether or astra. I know people don't want to rely on criticals but  found that the way to utilize Charlotte. Evidence in point (and sorry for the crappy photo phone doesn't have a good camera) So Selena is the main unit here, with a killer weapon, and Charlotte is the support with a Killer Axe, so since she is the support, Death Blow doesn't initiate as she isn't initiating the attack, and this was in Conquest btw, once I grinded up my units to level 15 or so advanced, and it's the things like this that make me love using Charlotte, yeah her dodge and defense/res are trash, but she is excellent at storming and breaking down otherwise tough enemies, even in an online match where I was severely outclassed, Charlotte was the only to get a kill, hitting with only 10% accuracy. Everyone's usage of Charlotte is different, and she is difficult to utilize, but knowing results like these are possible is what makes me user her.

Charlotte.jpg

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8 hours ago, avengerfive said:

It's pretty easy to improve Charlotte's hitrates. Removing Gamble and giving her an Iron is +15% hit. She has WTA vs lances/shurikens and can use the Dual Club for Swords/Magic. If you put her in Hero she can have WTA vs Axe/Bow users too. Then there's also support boosts/tonics/etc.

She won't have 100% hitrates all the time but it definitely makes her more reliable. 

Okay, but at the end of the day, she's still just another awful infantry axe user in a series where bad infantry axe users are a dime a dozen. Also, as there's only one Dual Club, she either makes someone else worse by having it, or she doesn't have the Dual Club.

3 hours ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

That is true, conquest is not a game where grinding is easy, again personal experience with charlotte, and I also normally don't use axe units, but Charlotte is an exception

Yeah removing Gamble is a given, and as a Berserker she will gain an increase in crits, maybe slap death blow on her and give her a killer axe and you get 100% (or near it) crit rates, which is what makes Charlotte viable in my opinion, as she has high attack, maybe below average normal hit rate, but her when her naturally high crit rate gets boosted even higher, then she just about always hits, due to criticals only happening when the unit hits. Which is why in my build for her on any save file, it's always skills that boost her crit rate and minor accuracy boosts alongside skills such as aether or astra. I know people don't want to rely on criticals but  found that the way to utilize Charlotte. Evidence in point (and sorry for the crappy photo phone doesn't have a good camera) So Selena is the main unit here, with a killer weapon, and Charlotte is the support with a Killer Axe, so since she is the support, Death Blow doesn't initiate as she isn't initiating the attack, and this was in Conquest btw, once I grinded up my units to level 15 or so advanced, and it's the things like this that make me love using Charlotte, yeah her dodge and defense/res are trash, but she is excellent at storming and breaking down otherwise tough enemies, even in an online match where I was severely outclassed, Charlotte was the only to get a kill, hitting with only 10% accuracy. Everyone's usage of Charlotte is different, and she is difficult to utilize, but knowing results like these are possible is what makes me user her.

Charlotte.jpg

Well, I generally avoid infantry axe units like the plague, unless they're really frigging good, which Charlotte ain't.

Be that as it may, I generally find Berserkers liabilities - their low crit evade means using one is akin to using (High) Jump Kick in Pokemon, except instead of potentially losing just the Pokemon you're using, you have a chance to lose the whole game instead. That is effing unacceptable, as I see it, especially because the player obviously gets the short stick in terms of how useful crits are. Also, far as I'm concerned, Killer weapons have seen better days - they're just not even worth a cursory glance in Fates imho.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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11 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Be that as it may, I generally find Berserkers liabilities - their low crit evade means using one is akin to using (High) Jump Kick in Pokemon, except instead of potentially losing just the Pokemon you're using, you have a chance to lose the whole game instead. That is effing unacceptable, as I see it, especially because the player obviously gets the short stick in terms of how useful crits are. Also, far as I'm concerned, Killer weapons have seen better days - they're just not even worth a cursory glance in Fates imho.

At this point, I must wonder: are we playing the same game? While I share your aversion for axe infantry and for losing units, I would argue that Berserkers and Killer weapons are both good in this game (the latter more than the former).
Yes, Fates Berserkers lose critical evade - a whopping 5. I agree this makes Arthur unsuitable for the class (losing him to a 1% critical chance made me laugh until I reset), but Charlotte (or Siegbert if he's her son) sporting a killer axe (x4 damage on critical at the cost of 10 avoid? Sign me up!) has a high tendency to delete enemies. Yes, you should not put them in a position where they have to weather a lot of attacks on the enemy's turn. Yes, they almost always miss against Swordmasters and Master Ninjas (curse the latter). Berserkers are best used when you have lured an enemy out of position, like with a General or Great Knight.
Speaking of which, classes with good defense (the aforementioned two) make excellent use of Killer weapons. Did you really want your Great Knight to be a dodge-tank? Give that Silas, Sophie, Gunter, etc a Killer weapon and watch him or her go to town!

blackestheart13, I did end up using Charlotte in my hard (classic) Conquest run - as a pair-up buddy for Xander. Alas, neither Charlotte nor the pair's Siegbert grew as quickly as I needed them to, but Xander welcomes Charlotte's assets stat boosts with open arms.
I found Silas did a little better for me as a Great Knight rather than a Paladin. Is Xander your only unit capable of baiting out non-magic enemies?

Edited by Phazon Archon
Learn to proofread, Phazon

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4 hours ago, Phazon Archon said:

At this point, I must wonder: are we playing the same game? While I share your aversion for axe infantry and for losing units, I would argue that Berserkers and Killer weapons are both good in this game (the latter more than the former).
Yes, Fates Berserkers lose critical evade - a whopping 5. I agree this makes Arthur unsuitable for the class (losing him to a 1% critical chance made me laugh until I reset), but Charlotte (or Siegbert if he's her son) sporting a killer axe (x4 damage on critical at the cost of 10 avoid? Sign me up!) has a high tendency to delete enemies. Yes, you should not put them in a position where they have to weather a lot of attacks on the enemy's turn. Yes, they almost always miss against Swordmasters and Master Ninjas (curse the latter). Berserkers are best used when you have lured an enemy out of position, like with a General or Great Knight.
Speaking of which, classes with good defense (the aforementioned two) make excellent use of Killer weapons. Did you really want your Great Knight to be a dodge-tank? Give that Silas, Sohpie, Gunter, etc a Killer weapon and watch him or her go to town!

I honestly fail to see it when Berserkers have no notable reward that even comes close to making up for forcing games of Russian Roulette - a very ugly imperfection, to be blunt - and killer weapons likely won't yield crit rates nearly reliable enough to rely on. They also have iron level might, which really doesn't do it for me. Also, Charlotte's a loser, and Siegbert's hardly what I'd call fantastic, so far as I'm concerned, mentioning them does your case no good. Frankly, about the only time I found killer weapons useful was against Ryoma in chapter 25.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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19 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

First, what are everyone'e stats? Second, slow and steady wins the race.

As for the Ryoma question, it's obviously hacking.

I disagree - she's hard to train, and Berserkers are rather risky with little in the way of reward.

Ummmm I can't fully answer the stats until tomorrow once I can fire it up again. Corrin is about a lv5 Paladin though with roughly 35HP, 22 Str, lol 10 Mag and 12 Skl, 23 Spd, 23 Luck, 20 Def, and 10 Res or so. Camilla is Lv 10 with most of her clutch stats at 25 or higher with like 35 HP. Beruka is about Lv 4 with 32 HP, 20 Str, 28 Skl, 20 Spd, 18 Luck, 28 Def, and about 15 Res O.O Peri and Silas are similar with about 34 HP, 20ish Str, no Mag, 20ish Skl, 20ish Spd, 16 Luck, 18 Def, and at least 15 Res. As for the others I can't fully remember...

In my Normal run I did use Charlotte. She was hilariously useful at times as a Berserker. I think she'd shine if she could find a way into the Wyvern Class for a while to help boost her weak points (cough Def) before turning her back into a haymaker on legs.

19 hours ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

Hmm, that seems pretty solid for a team, though usually Effie is pretty good at being a general, given Beruka and Camilla are wyvern lords their defense should be good to compensate, the only main advice I could offer is maybe try incorporating another mage user such as Ophelia, maybe a hero like Laslow or Soleil, and maybe try using Charlotte as she is really good as a berserker with a killer axe. Beyond that grinding may be the only option unless you go all out forging, I know I had to grind on my conquest playthrough. To answer the Ryoma question, if they did have 90 hp that'd be hacking, but getting Ryoma to level 20 isn't hard and give him the right skills and he's good.

Also welcome to the forest!

Thanks for the welcome!
I ran Effie as a Dark Falcon (sorry if that maybe got misinterpreted as a Dread Fighter) cause flight plus her insane Str, Spd, and Luck naturally then the class boons where they matter make her great for picking off enemies in a safe environment. Sure her Mag side is a bit low but you can't have it all.

As for Mages I'm not super keen on them. They seem kind of underpowered in this game but I could try maybe Felicia as a witch? Nyx is horrible and I have none of the kids cause I don't know who i want to pair up with who. Or who spawns what for that matter

 

2 hours ago, Phazon Archon said:

At this point, I must wonder: are we playing the same game? While I share your aversion for axe infantry and for losing units, I would argue that Berserkers and Killer weapons are both good in this game (the latter more than the former).
Yes, Fates Berserkers lose critical evade - a whopping 5. I agree this makes Arthur unsuitable for the class (losing him to a 1% critical chance made me laugh until I reset), but Charlotte (or Siegbert if he's her son) sporting a killer axe (x4 damage on critical at the cost of 10 avoid? Sign me up!) has a high tendency to delete enemies. Yes, you should not put them in a position where they have to weather a lot of attacks on the enemy's turn. Yes, they almost always miss against Swordmasters and Master Ninjas (curse the latter). Berserkers are best used when you have lured an enemy out of position, like with a General or Great Knight.
Speaking of which, classes with good defense (the aforementioned two) make excellent use of Killer weapons. Did you really want your Great Knight to be a dodge-tank? Give that Silas, Sohpie, Gunter, etc a Killer weapon and watch him or her go to town!

blackestheart13, I did end up using Charlotte in my hard (classic) Conquest run - as a pair-up buddy for Xander. Alas, neither Charlotte nor the pair's Siegbert grew as quickly as I needed them to, but Xander welcomes Charlotte's assets stat boosts with open arms.
I found Silas did a little better for me as a Great Knight rather than a Paladin. Is Xander your only unit capable of baiting out non-magic enemies?

Outside of Xander, Corrin is decent as well as both of my Wyverns (save the mobs of Kinshi and Snipers). The other cavalry aren't too bad. My current Peri has as much Def as my Normal Peri did at Lv 20/20 Paladin so that's pretty neat. I could try Silas as a GK instead. He certainly has the Str and Def growths to abuse the class.

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58 minutes ago, blackestheart13 said:

Ummmm I can't fully answer the stats until tomorrow once I can fire it up again. Corrin is about a lv5 Paladin though with roughly 35HP, 22 Str, lol 10 Mag and 12 Skl, 23 Spd, 23 Luck, 20 Def, and 10 Res or so. Camilla is Lv 10 with most of her clutch stats at 25 or higher with like 35 HP. Beruka is about Lv 4 with 32 HP, 20 Str, 28 Skl, 20 Spd, 18 Luck, 28 Def, and about 15 Res O.O Peri and Silas are similar with about 34 HP, 20ish Str, no Mag, 20ish Skl, 20ish Spd, 16 Luck, 18 Def, and at least 15 Res. As for the others I can't fully remember...

In my Normal run I did use Charlotte. She was hilariously useful at times as a Berserker. I think she'd shine if she could find a way into the Wyvern Class for a while to help boost her weak points (cough Def) before turning her back into a haymaker on legs.

Guess I'll just hafta wait to figure out everything...

"Haymaker on legs", ha. If I wanted to have a haymaker on legs, I'd want it to not be the kind who's prone to instantly die because a grunt got a crit in.

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11 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I honestly fail to see it when Berserkers have no notable reward that even comes close to making up for forcing games of Russian Roulette - a very ugly imperfection, to be blunt - and killer weapons likely won't yield crit rates nearly reliable enough to rely on. They also have iron level might, which really doesn't do it for me. Also, Charlotte's a loser, and Siegbert's hardly what I'd call fantastic, so far as I'm concerned, mentioning them does your case no good. Frankly, about the only time I found killer weapons useful was against Ryoma in chapter 25.

 

9 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

"Haymaker on legs", ha. If I wanted to have a haymaker on legs, I'd want it to not be the kind who's prone to instantly die because a grunt got a crit in.

I want to discuss this with you, but I will toss it in a spoiler tag in an attempt to not be seen as derailing the thread. I figured this would be better than just sending you a PM, partially because the latter method means no one else can chime in.

 

I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from: are we playing different difficulties? I have only run through Fates's three campaigns on Hard. If you're talking from a Lunatic perspective, then I understand your

protective and pessimistic mentality. Otherwise, where are you getting the idea that (seemingly) every enemy has a non-zero critical rate against Berserkers in this game?
Before I continue, I should mention that the only characters I use as Berserkers are Charlotte and Siegbert (her son). I'm still unsure about what classes I want Keaton and Velouria to settle in. I agree that the class is unsuitable for anyone else. I will only use Charlotte and Siegbert as my examples here because her use is one of the points where we disagree.

You are aware Charlotte has a Luck growth of 50% as a Fighter, right? Sure, it drops to 45% as a Berserker. Again, the latter's critical evade penalty is 5. Unless the RNG has it in for you (it happens to everyone at some point), Charlotte should have a passable critical evade score. This is, of course, assuming you aren't asking her to tank a Killer weapon (yikes) or making her wield Beruka's Axe (I avoid that weapon, a sentiment I think we share). Siegbert shares her 45% Luck growth as a Berserker.

Killer weapons don't do it for you in this game? The game tries to discourage you from using any weapon above Iron. Steel gives you a penalty on double-attacking and reduces avoid (that last bit is minor) while Silver reduces your Str and Skl after combat and comes with a critical avoid penalty of 5 (hey, the same amount Berserkers get!). Killer, meanwhile, trades 10 avoid for 25 critical chance and makes your critical hits do more damage than normal. I mentioned in my last post that a Killer weapon is best used on your meat shield (assuming you didn't toss him/her a Steel weapon) or, better yet, a class with a critical bonus. Congrats, your Berserker now pummels any squishy enemy and breaks Generals (or you're unlucky and you merely deal a bunch of damage with your hefty Str).

Forcing games of Russian Roulette? Every (or nearly every) chapter is Russian Roulette in this series, Fates especially. To quote you from another thread, "evade's hit a new low in terms of reliability". Yes, the drawn-out tactic of using a bulky unit to lure an enemy or two at a time is (almost always) your safest bet, but there are still plenty of times when one of your other units takes a hit for one reason or another (enemy hits you back when you attack, reinforcements show up in a fort you thought was empty, a map objective needs you to spread thin, etc). My problem with what you've been saying is your aversion to gambling with a small critical avoid penalty and with critical usage in general. If you simply said a Berserker's Def and Res were too low for your liking, I wouldn't be able to argue there. They really hate magic damage, more so than Generals. This is why you use a Berserker as part of your clean-up crew after someone with good HP and defenses takes the hit for the team.

I think your argument can be summarized by a statement you made in another thread, "Berserkers in this game suffer a crit evade penalty, which is a Very Bad Thing, Their increased crit rate and brute strength don't make up for this, not in the least". I have been trying to show you that Berserker is best used in a way that capitalizes on their Str, Spd, and critical bonus while mitigating their defensive penalties (and if all hell breaks loose, that hefty HP pool is nice). Given your aversion to fragile melee units (you once mentioned a fragile unit "getting crippled or even killed by counters"), I can't help but wonder what your typical battle plan looks like; most units can't take more than a few hits. This is especially true in Hard Conquest (Lunatic must be a doozy).

Charlotte is a loser? She needs to be fed some kills, yes (I think only the overpowered units don't need to be fed some kills upon recruitment in this series), but her growths reward you: 85/75/0/50/65/50/25/5 as a Fighter, 90/80/0/50/65/45/20/5 as a Berserker, 85/70/0/55/65/50/30/5 as a Hero (all numbers listed in HP/Str/Mag/Skl/Spd/Lck/Def/Res order, of course). Strip her of her starting Steel axe and let her start with weaker enemies (hello there, Pegasus Knights!) and you will likely gain a force to be reckoned with. I did relegate Charlotte to pair-up duty in my Conquest run, but this is in part due to my mismanagement of experience: I tried to juggle too many failing units. She worked out better for me in Revelation (yes, I know the saying "personal experience doesn't count", but all discussion of what works and what doesn't stems from collective personal experience).
As for Siegbert, I agree that he doesn't do enough as Paladin - he wants Siegfried, but it's locked on Xander. This is why I make him a Berserker and laugh as his 52 Str cap pounds the enemy to dust. Just, again, keep magic away from him.

Of course, everything I've said is assuming you aren't grinding levels, forging weapons, or buying skills. Obviously, those can make anyone a decent (or better) unit.

Please don't misunderstand me: I'm not upset, but I am confused by the points you continue to toss out without support. Please help me understand your position, whether it be here or in a PM. Again, if you're mostly talking about what to do on a Lunatic run, then I concede we are trying to discuss two different things.

 

blackestheart13, to address your point about magic users, my Conquest run used Elise and Ophelia (her daughter) as its magic users. Felicia never did much for me beyond healing, and Nyx only helped me in a couple chapters. I made my Corrin a Nohr Noble, but didn't use the tome I gave him all that much. If you make Felicia a witch, she'll likely follow the typical Elise path: plenty of Mag, Spd, Lck, and Res, but terrible HP and Def. Of course, her fragility shouldn't matter if you place her properly. I never made her a Witch in Conquest, only partially because that had not been released yet.

Depending on your pairings, some of the child units may help you (and recruiting them gives you another chapter to gain levels without resorting to Boo Camp). I paired Kaze with Azura and had the resulting Merchant Midori and Kinshi Knight Shigure make it to my endgame team. For the latter, I wanted a bow unit who was better than Niles. I tried with Niles (longer than I should have), but his levels almost always resulted in 2 stats. I think I had Mozu as a Sniper as well.

I did use the Boo Camp for my run, but I can't remember how much. My memory of it is fuzzy, so it couldn't have been a lot. Really, I have difficulty remembering anything about Conquest beyond the anticipation during battle preparations (what nasty surprises do the enemies have in store this time?), the prolific resetting during a chapter, and the thrill of finally beating one more chapter with everyone still alive. I think I spent about an afternoon per chapter. The remaining hard mode chapters in your run will test your nerves.

Edited by Phazon Archon
Spoiler didn't work the way I wanted

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14 hours ago, blackestheart13 said:

Thanks for the welcome!
I ran Effie as a Dark Falcon (sorry if that maybe got misinterpreted as a Dread Fighter) cause flight plus her insane Str, Spd, and Luck naturally then the class boons where they matter make her great for picking off enemies in a safe environment. Sure her Mag side is a bit low but you can't have it all.

As for Mages I'm not super keen on them. They seem kind of underpowered in this game but I could try maybe Felicia as a witch? Nyx is horrible and I have none of the kids cause I don't know who i want to pair up with who. Or who spawns what for that matter

Yeah I had guessed Dark Falcon (I honestly forgot dread fighter existed in fates) and it does seem like a pretty good option for her. Mages are a mixed bag, they target the lowest stat of most units from range but have terrivle hp and defense. I would say though Ophelia would be the best mage in Conquest. So she is Odin's daughter, but with better stats and potential. One thing I do is have Charlotte as her mother, and with the skill and crit boost (along with a slight hp boost) Ophelia wielding Excalibur naturally has at least 60% crit rate and I've seen it go up to 90% on certain enemies, and the damage isn't suffering as she was doing 34 damage to a enemy with 33 hp.

 

Also to the killer axe complaint, yes the might is low, but are we forgetting it QUADRUPLES the critical damage, combine that with the high strength and crit rate of berserkers and they will hit often, if they have 100% crit rate then its 100% hit rate, and possibly combine that with Astra, Aether, or any multi-hit skill to deal devastating damage

Edited by LucarioGamer812

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4 hours ago, Phazon Archon said:

 

I want to discuss this with you, but I will toss it in a spoiler tag in an attempt to not be seen as derailing the thread. I figured this would be better than just sending you a PM, partially because the latter method means no one else can chime in.

  Hide contents

I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from: are we playing different difficulties? I have only run through Fates's three campaigns on Hard. If you're talking from a Lunatic perspective, then I understand your

protective and pessimistic mentality. Otherwise, where are you getting the idea that (seemingly) every enemy has a non-zero critical rate against Berserkers in this game?
Before I continue, I should mention that the only characters I use as Berserkers are Charlotte and Siegbert (her son). I'm still unsure about what classes I want Keaton and Velouria to settle in. I agree that the class is unsuitable for anyone else. I will only use Charlotte and Siegbert as my examples here because her use is one of the points where we disagree.

You are aware Charlotte has a Luck growth of 50% as a Fighter, right? Sure, it drops to 45% as a Berserker. Again, the latter's critical evade penalty is 5. Unless the RNG has it in for you (it happens to everyone at some point), Charlotte should have a passable critical evade score. This is, of course, assuming you aren't asking her to tank a Killer weapon (yikes) or making her wield Beruka's Axe (I avoid that weapon, a sentiment I think we share). Siegbert shares her 45% Luck growth as a Berserker.

Killer weapons don't do it for you in this game? The game tries to discourage you from using any weapon above Iron. Steel gives you a penalty on double-attacking and reduces avoid (that last bit is minor) while Silver reduces your Str and Skl after combat and comes with a critical avoid penalty of 5 (hey, the same amount Berserkers get!). Killer, meanwhile, trades 10 avoid for 25 critical chance and makes your critical hits do more damage than normal. I mentioned in my last post that a Killer weapon is best used on your meat shield (assuming you didn't toss him/her a Steel weapon) or, better yet, a class with a critical bonus. Congrats, your Berserker now pummels any squishy enemy and breaks Generals (or you're unlucky and you merely deal a bunch of damage with your hefty Str).

Forcing games of Russian Roulette? Every (or nearly every) chapter is Russian Roulette in this series, Fates especially. To quote you from another thread, "evade's hit a new low in terms of reliability". Yes, the drawn-out tactic of using a bulky unit to lure an enemy or two at a time is (almost always) your safest bet, but there are still plenty of times when one of your other units takes a hit for one reason or another (enemy hits you back when you attack, reinforcements show up in a fort you thought was empty, a map objective needs you to spread thin, etc). My problem with what you've been saying is your aversion to gambling with a small critical avoid penalty and with critical usage in general. If you simply said a Berserker's Def and Res were too low for your liking, I wouldn't be able to argue there. They really hate magic damage, more so than Generals. This is why you use a Berserker as part of your clean-up crew after someone with good HP and defenses takes the hit for the team.

I think your argument can be summarized by a statement you made in another thread, "Berserkers in this game suffer a crit evade penalty, which is a Very Bad Thing, Their increased crit rate and brute strength don't make up for this, not in the least". I have been trying to show you that Berserker is best used in a way that capitalizes on their Str, Spd, and critical bonus while mitigating their defensive penalties (and if all hell breaks loose, that hefty HP pool is nice). Given your aversion to fragile melee units (you once mentioned a fragile unit "getting crippled or even killed by counters"), I can't help but wonder what your typical battle plan looks like; most units can't take more than a few hits. This is especially true in Hard Conquest (Lunatic must be a doozy).

Charlotte is a loser? She needs to be fed some kills, yes (I think only the overpowered units don't need to be fed some kills upon recruitment in this series), but her growths reward you: 85/75/0/50/65/50/25/5 as a Fighter, 90/80/0/50/65/45/20/5 as a Berserker, 85/70/0/55/65/50/30/5 as a Hero (all numbers listed in HP/Str/Mag/Skl/Spd/Lck/Def/Res order, of course). Strip her of her starting Steel axe and let her start with weaker enemies (hello there, Pegasus Knights!) and you will likely gain a force to be reckoned with. I did relegate Charlotte to pair-up duty in my Conquest run, but this is in part due to my mismanagement of experience: I tried to juggle too many failing units. She worked out better for me in Revelation (yes, I know the saying "personal experience doesn't count", but all discussion of what works and what doesn't stems from collective personal experience).
As for Siegbert, I agree that he doesn't do enough as Paladin - he wants Siegfried, but it's locked on Xander. This is why I make him a Berserker and laugh as his 52 Str cap pounds the enemy to dust. Just, again, keep magic away from him.

Of course, everything I've said is assuming you aren't grinding levels, forging weapons, or buying skills. Obviously, those can make anyone a decent (or better) unit.

Please don't misunderstand me: I'm not upset, but I am confused by the points you continue to toss out without support. Please help me understand your position, whether it be here or in a PM. Again, if you're mostly talking about what to do on a Lunatic run, then I concede we are trying to discuss two different things.

 

I had played through all of them on hard as well. Anyway, for starters, Berserker ties for the lowest luck cap in this game (25). Second, it takes two points of luck to equal one point of crit evade. These two points added together mean that Berserkers only get 7 Cev max before modifiers. Looking at enemy stats for chapter 23, the lowest crit chance I saw is 8, and 8 > 7.

Promoting to Berserker means coughing up a 6 Cev hairball (5 from the penalty, and another 1 from the loss of 2 luck). This means your average Charlotte would have a measly 1(!!!) Cev when promoted to Berserker. Needless to say, that ain't passable, nor does it even come close to meriting being called such.

The problem with killer weapons in this game, as I see it, is that crits honestly aren't that useful in the player's hands (iono about you, but far more often than not, any crits I get tend to not help in any meaningful way). Sadly, this is NOT true for the enemy. Giving a Killer Axe to a Berserker doesn't do jack nor shit to change that.

If I'm going to have something on my clean-up crew, it won't be something that auto-loses to bad RNG. Ever.

And I literally have zero reason not to stand by that statement - their strengths don't make up for the VERY damning weakness they have.

Yes, she's a loser - she's a bad infantry axe unit, which is something I've seen far too often to not be jaded on the subject. Also, Pegasus knights are't seen often enough to be worth mention, and even then, I'd want someone more reliable than Little Miss Whiffsalot to get rid of them. As for Siegbert, one, I don't see the point of gimping him by putting him into a lame class, and two, that 52 Str cap doesn't mean jack when there's nothing for it to do due to no postgame.

29 minutes ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

Also to the killer axe complaint, yes the might is low, but are we forgetting it QUADRUPLES the critical damage, combine that with the high strength and crit rate of berserkers and they will hit often, if they have 100% crit rate then its 100% hit rate, and possibly combine that with Astra, Aether, or any multi-hit skill to deal devastating damage

I think it's you who's forgetting that crits are terribly lopsided in terms of usefulness - and that crits are far more useless for the player, at that.

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All Guard Stances/pair-ups bequeath at least 5 critical evade.  

8>7, yes, but 8 < 7+5.

Now, that's max stats, of course.   So yes, average Charlotte would face critical chances .

But there are other ways.  Some attack stances give even more critical evade [I've even seen +15 bonuses out there].  So that's an option.  Additionally, you can use Charlotte's critical hits as the rear member of an attack stance [people use ranged weapons or melee, as needed, all while standing next to her, and lets her fish for crits].  

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5 hours ago, astrophys said:

All Guard Stances/pair-ups bequeath at least 5 critical evade.  

8>7, yes, but 8 < 7+5.

Now, that's max stats, of course.   So yes, average Charlotte would face critical chances .

But there are other ways.  Some attack stances give even more critical evade [I've even seen +15 bonuses out there].  So that's an option.  Additionally, you can use Charlotte's critical hits as the rear member of an attack stance [people use ranged weapons or melee, as needed, all while standing next to her, and lets her fish for crits].  

The thing is, pair up is much more situational here relative to Awakening, and second, it means you're using two units' turns at once. Also, out of the units she supports, only Laslow, Keaton, and Xander can give such a crit evade boost. And I dunno about you, but I can think of better strategies than fishing for crits, especially fishing for crits with someone who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if her life depended on it.

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*ignoring Levant usually stuff*

 

On 23/8/2017 at 2:04 AM, blackestheart13 said:

Hello All,

Thanks for taking the time to read the rantings of a rather mediocre Conquest player. I've beaten the game once on BR and Conquest and then almost beat Rev and then got mad for some reason and wiped all my data! SO now I'm doing Conquest HM and I am at the mercy of the RNG constantly. Currently at Ch. 20 or 21 before I snapped my 3DS...whichever has the wind gusts.

Team: Paladins Corrin, Silas, Xander, and Peri, Songstress Azura, Wyvern Lords Beruka and Camilla, Magic Nuke Elise, Staff and Support bots Shura and Jakob, DK Leo, and Fliers Effie and Selena (DF and FK respectively) for my core team. I don't really wanna have to boo camp my team up to snuff but I feel like my team is just not cut out and don't wanna restart after trucking it THIS far. Recommendations for reclasses or something that may help?

On another note, when I do wander into other people's castles how do they have these Lv20 Ryoma SMs with like 90 HP?? And these skill setups that are beyond crazy. Just Einherjar stuff or how...?

 

Thanks! My new 3DS will arrive Thursday so hopefully I can get some tips and help to calm myself and plan better!

Did you get dragonic hex on Corrin? It at least make some kill easier.

Darkfalcon!effie is very bad idea. Effie have a very bad def growth rate, one of reason why she became mediocre late game and Dark falcon make it just worst. Dread fighter was better cause at least make her as mage killer and give a better killing potential and shuriken utility. I don't know when you changed her class but if she already taked too many level as DArkfalcon, better just make her marry someone, use the child as main units(choose between speed+2 or def+2 to pass) and change effie as support bot general(at least after learn rally moviment as Darkfalcon) so she at least give a good pair up bonus stats and utility.

 

Use leo's dark mage ability dodge reduce as much you can, your team have a very big hit issue. Give him all the mag stat boost if you didn't use them yet so you can at least buff his damage.

 

Make sure to move xander, silas or beruka last as possible. Thye probably you most tanking units so you need them to block the enemy path after your fragile units attack. Also take much advantage of Elise skills cause it will save you more than a not reliable kill.

 

Learn the songstress+Shelter combo to boost your units's stats and may have a better offensive turn with less attacks but stronger units.

 

You have 3/4 healer and the support ones are mostly passive unit with nothing else than healing. 

 

Your team suffer against beastkiller/beastbone... 7 horse units...

 

This is as much I can help you with the info you provided.

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^DLC skills can't be passed down to children - the game would just go to the next legal skill for inheritance.

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10 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I had played through all of them on hard as well. Anyway, for starters, Berserker ties for the lowest luck cap in this game (25). Second, it takes two points of luck to equal one point of crit evade. These two points added together mean that Berserkers only get 7 Cev max before modifiers. Looking at enemy stats for chapter 23, the lowest crit chance I saw is 8, and 8 > 7.

I'm embarrassed to say I don't recall enemies having a critical chance of greater than 3% against my units (barring Killer weapons), but I can't argue against math. I see where you're coming from now. Thank you!

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Alright everyone sorry for the delay. Had an unexpectedly busy weekend. Stats below. The (+#) are the boosts from things like passive skills, yato, etc

Corrin Lv 6 Paladin 34/23/10/12/24/23/20 (+2)/12 (+2)
Jakob Lv 22 Butler 29/19/11/20/17/22/12/15 (+2)
Azura Lv 21 Songstress 19/14/6/23/26/16 (+4)/8/12
Camilla Lv 11 Wyvern Lord 37/29 (+2)/11/28/24/17/27/17
Beruka Lv 7 Wyvern Lord 33/23 (+2)/1/30/20/22/30/14
Peri Lv 3 Paladin 31/22/2/15/24/19/17/19
Leo Lv 6 Dark Knight 37/15/24/16/18/17/18/24
Xander Lv 8 Paladin 41/27/4/20/16/24/25 (+4)/14
Shura Lv 6 Adventurer 32/19/12/21/26/15/14/25
Elise Lv4 Strategist 26/5/28/13/25/28/10/27 (+2)
Silas Lv 2 Paladin 32/20/1/22/22/12/18/12
Effie Lv 21 Dark Falcon 28/19/8/12/21 (+2)/19/15 (+2)/21
Selena Lv 1 Falcon Knight 30/12/8/15/24/17/16/21

As far as backup units obvious Gunter could get Sealed into Wyvern Lord for support abilities, Niles is a Lv 16 Outlaw, obviously the Maids could be immediate staff bots, Flora almost looks like she could seal into a decent melee unit oddly enough. I just feel like I may need to restart. I have a save at Ch 6 but I feel like my initial choices for Corrin were bad. What boon/bane/talent do you often use in your playthroughs? I thought the durability would help but apparently the +10 or 15 bonus just isn't in the RNG's favor for me >.>

Also as for getting children, what pairings would be recommended? Either from what I have or from the get go (should I just give up and restart)?

On 8/24/2017 at 4:16 PM, SpearOfLies said:

*ignoring Levant usually stuff*

 

Did you get dragonic hex on Corrin? It at least make some kill easier.

Darkfalcon!effie is very bad idea. Effie have a very bad def growth rate, one of reason why she became mediocre late game and Dark falcon make it just worst. Dread fighter was better cause at least make her as mage killer and give a better killing potential and shuriken utility. I don't know when you changed her class but if she already taked too many level as DArkfalcon, better just make her marry someone, use the child as main units(choose between speed+2 or def+2 to pass) and change effie as support bot general(at least after learn rally moviment as Darkfalcon) so she at least give a good pair up bonus stats and utility.

 

Use leo's dark mage ability dodge reduce as much you can, your team have a very big hit issue. Give him all the mag stat boost if you didn't use them yet so you can at least buff his damage.

 

Make sure to move xander, silas or beruka last as possible. Thye probably you most tanking units so you need them to block the enemy path after your fragile units attack. Also take much advantage of Elise skills cause it will save you more than a not reliable kill.

 

Learn the songstress+Shelter combo to boost your units's stats and may have a better offensive turn with less attacks but stronger units.

 

You have 3/4 healer and the support ones are mostly passive unit with nothing else than healing. 

 

Your team suffer against beastkiller/beastbone... 7 horse units...

 

This is as much I can help you with the info you provided.

I actually didn't let Corrin learn Hex and I think I'll go back to base and get it since I totally forgot about it. I went Cavalier as soon as I could for the mobility and secondary weapons. Why do you think Effie is so bad as a DF? Her base growth is 35% that's not too horrible. I know she gets no more from her current class but the added mobility has been a life saver in some instances actually.

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I normally use +MAG/-LCK (Clever and Unlucky to use their actual names).   

Because the Goddess Icon in Chapter 4 is one of the earliest stat boosters in the game, its fairly easy to just give it to Corrin and almost immediately start patching up the weak stat induced by his bane.   His HP, DEF, and RES all remain intact for surviving damage, and while STR and MAG are slightly negatively effective, they're only -5% penalties to growth - 1 point of difference on average over 20 levels - barely noticeable.  Not to mention that +MAG (Clever) offers +20% magic growth [for a net total of +15% from +MAG/-LCK)... and MAG also boosts your speed slightly in turn [and less notably but still there it shores up your resistance by a slight +5%].   

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4 hours ago, blackestheart13 said:

Alright everyone sorry for the delay. Had an unexpectedly busy weekend. Stats below. The (+#) are the boosts from things like passive skills, yato, etc

Corrin Lv 6 Paladin 34/23/10/12/24/23/20 (+2)/12 (+2)
Jakob Lv 22 Butler 29/19/11/20/17/22/12/15 (+2)
Azura Lv 21 Songstress 19/14/6/23/26/16 (+4)/8/12
Camilla Lv 11 Wyvern Lord 37/29 (+2)/11/28/24/17/27/17
Beruka Lv 7 Wyvern Lord 33/23 (+2)/1/30/20/22/30/14
Peri Lv 3 Paladin 31/22/2/15/24/19/17/19
Leo Lv 6 Dark Knight 37/15/24/16/18/17/18/24
Xander Lv 8 Paladin 41/27/4/20/16/24/25 (+4)/14
Shura Lv 6 Adventurer 32/19/12/21/26/15/14/25
Elise Lv4 Strategist 26/5/28/13/25/28/10/27 (+2)
Silas Lv 2 Paladin 32/20/1/22/22/12/18/12
Effie Lv 21 Dark Falcon 28/19/8/12/21 (+2)/19/15 (+2)/21
Selena Lv 1 Falcon Knight 30/12/8/15/24/17/16/21

As far as backup units obvious Gunter could get Sealed into Wyvern Lord for support abilities, Niles is a Lv 16 Outlaw, obviously the Maids could be immediate staff bots, Flora almost looks like she could seal into a decent melee unit oddly enough. I just feel like I may need to restart. I have a save at Ch 6 but I feel like my initial choices for Corrin were bad. What boon/bane/talent do you often use in your playthroughs? I thought the durability would help but apparently the +10 or 15 bonus just isn't in the RNG's favor for me >.>

Also as for getting children, what pairings would be recommended? Either from what I have or from the get go (should I just give up and restart)?

I actually didn't let Corrin learn Hex and I think I'll go back to base and get it since I totally forgot about it. I went Cavalier as soon as I could for the mobility and secondary weapons. Why do you think Effie is so bad as a DF? Her base growth is 35% that's not too horrible. I know she gets no more from her current class but the added mobility has been a life saver in some instances actually.

Only 28 hp and 15 def urghh. 19 str... urghh. You hardily get boost from personal skill against physical enemy and she can do nothing on chapter 20 unless you buy a beastkiller which you can use on everyone else and do better, like selena.

Aside your stat and level is mostly correct if you are on chapter 20, you probably don't have good way to deal the master spearmaster and omnyouji. Or maybe kinshin knight? 

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