Conquest Odin -- Heart Seal Viability

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The problem is, Odin joins in a chapter that encourages rushing, in addition to being best used for chip damage.

I like them too, but I don't feel the need to go that far out of my way for their sake (Strategist Elise by chapter 10? Really??).

See my first point - there's not much room for stalling like that when I need all the help I can get in terms of cash.

Aside from me never being able to recruit Anna that early, Niles's luck is bad enough that he's liable to get instagibbed by Haitaka - that ain't acceptable, by my standards. Also, chapter 11 doesn't have Hinoka getting healed by terrain - she's healed by a Shrine Maiden who only has so many charges on her staff. And personally, I found Camilla better off reclassed to Wyvern Lord pretty much immediately. And I'm not sure that Hinoka would last that long against a promoted Elise that early...

Yeah Odin join chapter is actually pretty bad

 

But not the chapters AFTER he joins because "training Odin" is basically giving him Nosferatu and going AFK

[SpearOfLies]

2 hours ago, starburst said:

 

 

To be honest, I do not remember how many levels Odin usually gets, but I do not think that three levels is far-fetched. I will try to document it on my next play-through. I do know that Archer Mozu gets 7-8 levels because I have played her chapter multiple times in order to maximise her experience.

I 'invest' time and experience on characters whom I like and who would die easily otherwise. For example, I level-up Azura till level 10 on Chapter Five (by singing to Corrin), and Elise till level 14-16 on Chapter Seven (by using three or four staves on unarmed teammates facing the horde of Faceless at a choke point.) These two characters are almost always over-levelled, so that they do not die easily in the more difficult chapters. To give you an idea, I promote Elise before starting Chapter Ten, as soon as her Magic caps (usually by level 17-18.) And right before starting Chapter Fourteen, Songstress Azura is at level 21; Tactician Elise, at 17/3; the rest of the party, at 16-17 (including Corrin.)

In Chapter Eight, I favour Odin precisely because he needs babysitting, just like Azura and Elise. Since the enemy dark mages will always attack the character with weaker Resistance, it is just a matter of positioning Effie or Silas, then heal them a couple of turns to feed experience to Elise and the other healer, and finally hit the dark mages with Odin + Elise/Felicia. When facing Kilma, Odin, Azura and the healers can also get more experience by hitting Kilma and healing Odin right afterwards. This can go on for several turns, for Kilma will recover thanks to Nosferatu and his seat.

Self-healing bosses are also a great way to get weapon ranks. This is exactly how Niles, Anna and Archer Mozu level-up one bow rank when facing Haitaka on Chapter Nine, and how Camilla and Elise level-up one tome rank when facing Hinoka on Chapter Eleven. Azura and the healers are also fed experience in the process.

It is a style, I guess. I could clear various maps faster, using only the stronger characters, but I choose to spread the experience points on the entire party, and I favour some characters at the beginning.

I cannot call this spread experience. You don't need give them so much exp.

Also(about your previous post that I fail to tag) I prefer reclass Elise or Felicia than Odin if I really need to reclass someone and I usually don't need.

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The problem is, Odin joins in a chapter that encourages rushing, in addition to being best used for chip damage.

I like them too, but I don't feel the need to go that far out of my way for their sake (Strategist Elise by chapter 10? Really??).

See my first point - there's not much room for stalling like that when I need all the help I can get in terms of cash.

Aside from me never being able to recruit Anna that early, Niles's luck is bad enough that he's liable to get instagibbed by Haitaka - that ain't acceptable, by my standards. Also, chapter 11 doesn't have Hinoka getting healed by terrain - she's healed by a Shrine Maiden who only has so many charges on her staff. And personally, I found Camilla better off reclassed to Wyvern Lord pretty much immediately. And I'm not sure that Hinoka would last that long against a promoted Elise that early...

You know that reclass Camilla to Wyvern actually reduce her damage output right?

Edited September 3, 2017 by SpearOfLies

[Shadow Mir]

12 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

You know that reclass Camilla to Wyvern actually reduce her damage output right?

In what way, exactly?

25 minutes ago, JSND said:

Yeah Odin join chapter is actually pretty bad

 

But not the chapters AFTER he joins because "training Odin" is basically giving him Nosferatu and going AFK

That means pissing away 4 grand for something I don't consider worth it, especially since money isn't so plentiful I can throw it around willy-nilly and not expect to get bit in the ass later.

[SpearOfLies]

44 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

In what way, exactly?

That means pissing away 4 grand for something I don't consider worth it, especially since money isn't so plentiful I can throw it around willy-nilly and not expect to get bit in the ass later.

There are enemies you can kill with Camilla's magic damage than her physical damage and tomes are better than a handaxe if you want weak a not-high-res-unit to feed someone else.

[Koumal8]

4 hours ago, starburst said:

To be honest, I do not remember how many levels Odin usually gets, but I do not think that three levels is far-fetched. I will try to document it on my next play-through. I do know that Archer Mozu gets 7-8 levels because I have played her chapter multiple times in order to maximise her experience.

[SNIP]

It is a style, I guess. I could clear various maps faster, using only the stronger characters, but I choose to spread the experience points on the entire party, and I favour some characters at the beginning.

  Have I seriously just read a bazillion lines explaining the ground-shaking and awe-inspiring tactic of BOSS ABUSE!?!?!? AND STAFF/DANCE SPAM?!?! Okay, now, sorry if it came out more than a bit rude, I did occasionally boss-abuse and dance-staff spam in early chapters in my "fire emblem career", but the fact that those strategies are effective in making characters viable does not mean that the character is viable on his own. Those "strategies" are effective but not in the least efficient, and usually some kind of efficiency is usually taken into account when discussing a unit's viability. Such level of favoritism cannot be used as proof of any unit's viability, sorry. Any character is viable if you show him enough love, it's FE after all, but that does not mean every unit is viable. The next time try playing Odin's join chapter feeding kills, which is reasonable favoritism, but without boss abuse and actually rushing the chapter to save the houses and tell me how many levels he can get, I doubt it will be more than 2. 

1 hour ago, SpearOfLies said:

There are enemies you can kill with Camilla's magic damage than her physical damage and tomes are better than a handaxe if you want weak a not-high-res-unit to feed someone else.

  That's interesting, do you have some data about the specific enemies WL!Cam and MK!Cam can and cannot one-round? I always reclass her at Lv.5 but I welcome any reason to keep her in her default class!

[SpearOfLies]

1 hour ago, Koumal8 said:

That's interesting, do you have some data about the specific enemies WL!Cam and MK!Cam can and cannot one-round? I always reclass her at Lv.5 but I welcome any reason to keep her in her default class!

I don't use her so much to remember every istance but she should do more magical damage than physical damage against general, oni chieftain, wyvern lord and master of arms(also blacksmith but I don't remember you meet any of them).

Early game physical vs magic doesn't make so much difference. I believe the only chapter matter more is the Scarlet's one.

Mid game have many good resistance physical units but there still is zora's chapter and you can buy the bolt axe which might is much higher than the physical weapon you usually use so her no so good mag matter less. Also it make seal strenght less annoying.

Late game you have much more low res enemies and there are also many good def enemies so her magic side have much more value. She isn't good as before but you can use her more than a rally def bot.

This aside WL!Cam physical damage is not so much better than the MK!Cam and you pick it over because you want rally def. I prefer much more Xander as Wyvern lord if I really need a Wyvern Lord without too much investiment *coffcoff* or a better Xander*coffcoff*.

[Koumal8]

1 minute ago, SpearOfLies said:

I don't use her so much to remember every istance but she should do more magical damage than physical damage against general, oni chieftain, wyvern lord and master of arms(also blacksmith but I don't remember you meet any of them).

Early game physical vs magic doesn't make so much difference. I believe the only chapter matter more is the Scarlet's one.

Mid game have many good resistance physical units but there still is zora's chapter and you can buy the bolt axe which might is much higher than the physical weapon you usually use so her no so good mag matter less. Also it make seal strenght less annoying.

Late game you have much more low res enemies and there are also many good def enemies so her magic side have much more value. She isn't good as before but you can use her more than a rally def bot.

This aside WL!Cam physical damage is not so much better than the MK!Cam and you pick it over because you want rally def. I prefer much more Xander as Wyvern lord if I really need a Wyvern Lord without too much investiment *coffcoff* or a better Xander*coffcoff*.

You might be right, maybe I'm just overestimating the 2 Spd points she gets when reclassed to WL; it's also nice to have her use Beastslayers though (and I'm not strictly talking about Ch.19). I'll try her out eventually, do you dump all the +Mag items (I can't remember what they're called lol) on her?

Also now I'm really interested in that WL!Marx of yours: unpenalized 1-2 range with SIegfried is what makes him an above average unit, as a WL he loses much of his EP slaughtering capabilities without tanking all that better, I fail to see how Pal!Xander + Zerker!Charlotte as a pair up bot is not his best possible "build" (maybe Hero > Pal in the last chapters if you're worried about Beastslayers, I remember there being a couple in the Endgame which massively influence the path you can take with him towards Takumi); is flight in Conquest really worth the loss of Siegfried? I'm genuinely interested in the areas WL!Xander beats Pal!Xander, I always wanted to try him out!

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

In what way, exactly?

That means pissing away 4 grand for something I don't consider worth it, especially since money isn't so plentiful I can throw it around willy-nilly and not expect to get bit in the ass later.

Its actually 2 grand

 

And that 2 grand investment gave you a character who can solo the next 4-5 chapter, and poops Siegfried, Shurikenbreaker, Spirit Dust, and like one the best character in the game in Ophelia(because Dwyer is fucking broken so he's the obvious best anyway)

[SpearOfLies]

22 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

You might be right, maybe I'm just overestimating the 2 Spd points she gets when reclassed to WL; it's also nice to have her use Beastslayers though (and I'm not strictly talking about Ch.19). I'll try her out eventually, do you dump all the +Mag items (I can't remember what they're called lol) on her?

Also now I'm really interested in that WL!Marx of yours: unpenalized 1-2 range with SIegfried is what makes him an above average unit, as a WL he loses much of his EP slaughtering capabilities without tanking all that better, I fail to see how Pal!Xander + Zerker!Charlotte as a pair up bot is not his best possible "build" (maybe Hero > Pal in the last chapters if you're worried about Beastslayers, I remember there being a couple in the Endgame which massively influence the path you can take with him towards Takumi); is flight in Conquest really worth the loss of Siegfried? I'm genuinely interested in the areas WL!Xander beats Pal!Xander, I always wanted to try him out!

I current busy so I cannot check all the data but I kind of want to know when you can train his lance rank.

[Koumal8]

19 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

I current busy so I cannot check all the data but I kind of want to know when you can train his lance rank.

Whenever you want: Beastslayer rank is only D, it doesn't take much to go from E to D, especially for a unit who joins with those bases.

EDIT: maybe I wasn't clear enough: it's Camilla who can use Beastslayer, Xander doesn't need it

Edited September 3, 2017 by Koumal8

[SpearOfLies]

34 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

Whenever you want: Beastslayer rank is only D, it doesn't take much to go from E to D, especially for a unit who joins with those bases.

EDIT: maybe I wasn't clear enough: it's Camilla who can use Beastslayer, Xander doesn't need it

Here my issues with Pal!Xander: hitting and being a horse unit. As much siegfried is good, it's a pain in the ass hitting something either weapon disadvantage, out of range or mage unit. Being a horse unit make him also weak to beast killer and beastbone make the follow chapters after his join to army very hard to train his lance to use a good lance to get atleast good weapon advantage. Otherwise you are going to bench his lances as sieg is much better than try to train his lance.

As WL he have the kitsune chapter where he can free farm weapon rank. He have the stats of general and not being a horse he is not weak anymore to beastbone. Also having a extra royal flying unit is also very valueble to wind tribe chapter, the follow one and hinoka one where they can shine better and as WL!xander he can also tank the bersekers and generals hell chapter.

 

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

There are enemies you can kill with Camilla's magic damage than her physical damage and tomes are better than a handaxe if you want weak a not-high-res-unit to feed someone else.

The issue is, Camilla has lopsided stats such that they lean more towards being physical (an issue that most potential Malig Knights run afoul of - being specced in such a way they can only fight efficiently with one of the two weapons). It doesn't help that I don't care for the Malig Knight's skills. . .

1 hour ago, SpearOfLies said:

Here my issues with Pal!Xander: hitting and being a horse unit. As much siegfried is good, it's a pain in the ass hitting something either weapon disadvantage, out of range or mage unit. Being a horse unit make him also weak to beast killer and beastbone make the follow chapters after his join to army very hard to train his lance to use a good lance to get atleast good weapon advantage. Otherwise you are going to bench his lances as sieg is much better than try to train his lance.

As WL he have the kitsune chapter where he can free farm weapon rank. He have the stats of general and not being a horse he is not weak anymore to beastbone. Also having a extra royal flying unit is also very valueble to wind tribe chapter, the follow one and hinoka one where they can shine better and as WL!xander he can also tank the bersekers and generals hell chapter.

 

Let me be frank - I don't really see Wyvern Lord Xander as worth it, because he loses Siegfried, and with it, the ability to face down Berserkers, among other things, safely, and doesn't gain too much that's meaningful in exchange.

[Koumal8]

2 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

Here my issues with Pal!Xander: hitting and being a horse unit. As much siegfried is good, it's a pain in the ass hitting something either weapon disadvantage, out of range or mage unit. Being a horse unit make him also weak to beast killer and beastbone make the follow chapters after his join to army very hard to train his lance to use a good lance to get atleast good weapon advantage. Otherwise you are going to bench his lances as sieg is much better than try to train his lance.

As WL he have the kitsune chapter where he can free farm weapon rank. He have the stats of general and not being a horse he is not weak anymore to beastbone. Also having a extra royal flying unit is also very valueble to wind tribe chapter, the follow one and hinoka one where they can shine better and as WL!xander he can also tank the bersekers and generals hell chapter.

 

Well, Siegfried has 80 hit and Xander has decent skill base and growth, so yeah, the only units he has trouble hitting are Swordmasters and Ninjas, I wouldn't hold it against him too much, every character has trouble hitting them without WTA. Also that bit in bold is pretty weird: Xander should never be facing more than one magic unit on EP, but his matchup against them is probably even worse as a WL: he no longer 100% retaliates and is even more prone to being doubled due to WL lower base speed and reduced AS from Hand Axes and the likes (IF he's wielding one, if he's not even retaliating you're baiting with the wrong unit); about the Lance WR, if you have your heart set on him using some lances, he starts out with D rank, which means he can slaughter some cavs even without Siegfried to improve it and in general I don't think it should be too hard to get him to C rank (which the only rank that matters in Fates as far as secondary weapons are concerned, IMO) by the endgame, which is when Swordmasters and Master Ninjas become REALLY FU***NG speedy. And as far as "out of range" enemies are concerned, he's already a cav, reaching enemies is not his problem (outside admittedly of Hinoka and Fuga's chapter). On top of all that, I'm fairly sure bows are more common than beastslayers, and if you add his lower speed to the equation I'm not sure he's much tankier than Pal!Xander. As a final nail in the coffin, Hero!Xander tanks the Zerker+General room leagues better than both of Pal!Xander and WL!Xander combined.

It's just that Siegfried gives him so many unique advantages (unpenalized 1-2 range, incredible tankiness in a non-slowasBors class, OHKO capability, at least on Hard) that losing it doesn't seem worth anything in my view; I mean, if Xander is better off reclassed than what chances does Silas have?

btw we're more than a bit off-topic

Edited September 3, 2017 by Koumal8

[starburst]

11 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The problem is, Odin joins in a chapter that encourages rushing, in addition to being best used for chip damage.

I like them too, but I don't feel the need to go that far out of my way for their sake (Strategist Elise by chapter 10? Really??).

[...]

Aside from me never being able to recruit Anna that early, Niles's luck is bad enough that he's liable to get instagibbed by Haitaka - that ain't acceptable, by my standards. Also, chapter 11 doesn't have Hinoka getting healed by terrain - she's healed by a Shrine Maiden who only has so many charges on her staff. And personally, I found Camilla better off reclassed to Wyvern Lord pretty much immediately. And I'm not sure that Hinoka would last that long against a promoted Elise that early...

But I visit all three houses before facing the enemies not in the direct south path. Other than those three dark mages, only a couple of reinforcements will chase you, the others will not attack you if you are not in their range. Try it.

· Corrin visits the first house in turn 1, and Silas, Elise and Felicia should move as west as possible.
· In turn 2, Corrin groups with Elise, Odin and Niles appear, you pair-up everyone and move them all to the middle of the lake.
· In turn 3, you kill the dark mages in the south (Felicia, Niles and Silas or Effie plus a free kill for Odin.)
· You reach the second house with Felicia, Niles or Silas's pair-up in turn 4 (Flora will waste her staff uses freezing the character with more movement, Silas.)
· You 'secure' the third house by turn 5. Even if you do not visit it within five turns, you only need to 'block' the lancer, for no other enemy moves into that direction.

In my experience, recruiting Anna early (before Chapter 10) requires a fast magic user (Odin/Nyx + Felicia) and Niles + Arthur (whom I do not use, but he gives Niles great bonuses), then it is all a matter of positioning and luring the berserker into a choke point in the south-eastern part of the map. Mark the berserker with the magic axe, the one with the great axe that drains his HP, and the bosses. The first one cannot kill Niles, Felicia or Elise, who have high resistance and speed; the second will most likely commit suicide if you are paired-up, and the bosses... well, they are just a pain in the ass. Not to mention that Anna may well die, no matter what you do; it is a trial an error map. I usually takes me two to four attempts to recruit her.

Lastly, yes, Hinoka relies on her healer, but that gives you fifteen turns to train. Let Azura sing to Camilla, and she and Elise will actually attack Hinoka twice within those turns. Leave everyone outside the attack range or Hinoka's party, position Camilla within Hinoka's range and Elise right next to her, outside the attack range. Camilla's magic will barely affect Hinoka and Elise's attack will be halved, for she is in attack stance. Then let Azura sing to Camilla, attack again, and finally let Elise heal Camilla. All three will get some experience points (which were almost unavailable to them within the entire map, for they were over-levelled) and, most importantly, Elise and Camilla should gain a tome rank and support points.

If a character only gets a couple of experience points per kill, I only use them as pair-ups, walls (Xander and Leo) or position-bonuses (Camilla, Elise and, sometimes, Felicia.) I let those experience points go to the characters who can actually gain a level.

 

 

8 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

  Have I seriously just read a bazillion lines explaining the ground-shaking and awe-inspiring tactic of BOSS ABUSE!?!?!? AND STAFF/DANCE SPAM?!?! Okay, now, sorry if it came out more than a bit rude, I did occasionally boss-abuse and dance-staff spam in early chapters in my "fire emblem career", but the fact that those strategies are effective in making characters viable does not mean that the character is viable on his own. Those "strategies" are effective but not in the least efficient, and usually some kind of efficiency is usually taken into account when discussing a unit's viability. Such level of favoritism cannot be used as proof of any unit's viability, sorry. Any character is viable if you show him enough love, it's FE after all, but that does not mean every unit is viable. The next time try playing Odin's join chapter feeding kills, which is reasonable favoritism, but without boss abuse and actually rushing the chapter to save the houses and tell me how many levels he can get, I doubt it will be more than 2.

 

I actually 'discovered' that Azura could gain levels by singing repeatedly not so long ago, while reading information about early Heart Seals (where Haitaka was mentioned.) Before that, Azura would be at level 5 or so till Chapter 15 (her free-experience chapter.)
I choose to level-up Azura till level 10 in Chapter 5, precisely because of how fragile she is. This way, she is at least at the same level of her teammates by the time she joins the party (in Chapter 9.)

And I choose to level-up Elise simply because the last time I let Elise heal only when necessary, I ended up promoting her on Chapter 22 (or whatever chapter is Sakura's.)
Do note that even though she can kill almost any enemy in one hit as an early Strategist, she hardly ever attacks before Chapter 16, because she would only 'steal' experience points from her teammates. The same happens to Camilla, Leo and Xander, who are 'over-levelled' when they join, and I only use them as pair-ups or walls for a couple of chapters.

I understand that the many turns 'invested/spent' in these two characters may not worth it to you and many other users, but, for me, is like babysitting them during the first chapters and then forgetting about them.
One may actually heal and sing repeatedly with Azura and Elise at the end of many chapters so that they are not left far behind; I choose to do it early.

Edited September 3, 2017 by starburst

[Koumal8]

45 minutes ago, starburst said:

I actually 'discovered' that Azura could gain levels by singing repeatedly not so long ago, while reading information about early Heart Seals (where Haitaka was mentioned.) Before that, Azura would be at level 5 or so till Chapter 15 (her free-experience chapter.)
I choose to level-up Azura till level 10 in Chapter 5, precisely because of how fragile she is. This way, she is at least at the same level of her teammates by the time she joins the party (in Chapter 9.)

And I choose to level-up Elise simply because the last time I let Elise heal only when necessary, I ended up promoting her on Chapter 22 (or whatever chapter is Sakura's.)
Do note that even though she can kill almost any enemy in one hit as an early Strategist, she hardly ever attacks before Chapter 16, because she would only 'steal' experience points from her teammates. The same happens to Camilla, Leo and Xander, who are 'over-levelled' when they join, and I only use them as pair-ups or walls for a couple of chapters.

I understand that the many turns 'invested/spent' in these two characters may not worth it to you and many other users, but, for me, is like babysitting them during the first chapters and then forgetting about them.
One may actually heal and sing repeatedly with Azura and Elise at the end of many chapters so that they are not left far behind; I choose to do it early.

I was being sarcastic. Tell me I'm an elitist f**k, I don't care, I know how boss abuse/dance spam/staff spam work, I used those strategies as well in my first few playthroughs, but reading about them now admittedly makes me chuckle, if only because between two players playing the game, regardless of time constraints, the one who does not take advantage of such cheap strategies is just a better player than the one who does (early-game healers and all dancers are supposed to be squishy and to need protection, if I overlevel them to the point where they start being able to take 2 or even 3 hits, or where they start to dodge-tank anything, you're not playing the game as it was intended to be played, you're just preventing yourself from becoming a better player by learning how to juggle your playstyle around protecting squishy units while still remaining on the offensive)

The reason I'm telling you all this is not to convince you to do otherwise: everyone has the right to play the game however they may wish to, if that's how you enjoy the game, well, I'm happy for you! Just please, when discussing a unit's viability (which is what was being done here about Samurai!Odin vs Mage!Odin) don't bring as an argument the fact that "if I boss abuse he becomes good" because... it's just a moot point. Any character is viable if you show them so much favoritism that they reach well beyond the level they would realistically be at in the hands of most other players, who are unlikely to show as much commitment towards the character as you do.

Though I must say I'm tempted to try your strat for Odin's join level, it doesn't take much to reach chapter 8 after all, and even tough going in the middle of the map seems tantamount to suicide, you're saying it works, so... yeah. On what difficulty does it work in your experience?

[SpearOfLies]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The issue is, Camilla has lopsided stats such that they lean more towards being physical (an issue that most potential Malig Knights run afoul of - being specced in such a way they can only fight efficiently with one of the two weapons). It doesn't help that I don't care for the Malig Knight's skills. . .

Let me be frank - I don't really see Wyvern Lord Xander as worth it, because he loses Siegfried, and with it, the ability to face down Berserkers, among other things, safely, and doesn't gain too much that's meaningful in exchange.

Let me be frank as well - Do you really don't have any other units to counter Berseker? Let me be more frank - Do you really need to worry about a enemy that appear only one end game chapter ?

The only other enemy that you cannot face safely is bow user but are you serious use him as bow counter? Do you fear bows so much?

3 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

Well, Siegfried has 80 hit and Xander has decent skill base and growth, so yeah, the only units he has trouble hitting are Swordmasters and Ninjas, I wouldn't hold it against him too much, every character has trouble hitting them without WTA. Also that bit in bold is pretty weird: Xander should never be facing more than one magic unit on EP, but his matchup against them is probably even worse as a WL: he no longer 100% retaliates and is even more prone to being doubled due to WL lower base speed and reduced AS from Hand Axes and the likes (IF he's wielding one, if he's not even retaliating you're baiting with the wrong unit); about the Lance WR, if you have your heart set on him using some lances, he starts out with D rank, which means he can slaughter some cavs even without Siegfried to improve it and in general I don't think it should be too hard to get him to C rank (which the only rank that matters in Fates as far as secondary weapons are concerned, IMO) by the endgame, which is when Swordmasters and Master Ninjas become REALLY FU***NG speedy. And as far as "out of range" enemies are concerned, he's already a cav, reaching enemies is not his problem (outside admittedly of Hinoka and Fuga's chapter). On top of all that, I'm fairly sure bows are more common than beastslayers, and if you add his lower speed to the equation I'm not sure he's much tankier than Pal!Xander. As a final nail in the coffin, Hero!Xander tanks the Zerker+General room leagues better than both of Pal!Xander and WL!Xander combined.

It's just that Siegfried gives him so many unique advantages (unpenalized 1-2 range, incredible tankiness in a non-slowasBors class, OHKO capability, at least on Hard) that losing it doesn't seem worth anything in my view; I mean, if Xander is better off reclassed than what chances does Silas have?

btw we're more than a bit off-topic

Let start with the easier one:

- I agree with hero!xander is the most tanking one but aside that, what else he have? Do you really need so tank unit?

- On fates there only 3 units that are actualy good on enemy phase: Ryouma, Xander and Camilla(four if you consider early game Effie). Any other scenario, you care more about the units survive the enemies' attacks unless they hard counter the enemies. Being good on enemies phase have much less value on fates.

-Try to bait a mage with Xander only because he have a 2 range weapon seem the most stupid idea ever. If you really want tank them, at least you should have Guardnaginata or hexlock spear which both are C rank lance and give up the counterattack that can still miss.

- The two chapter where WL!xander 's fly ability are very good are within the most hateful chapters.

- WL!xander have much more reliable OHKO(more hit chance and 4 more strenght) and there many more enemies that Pal!Xander have issue to hit: all the blue weapon unit. Most the common enemies wich he have weapon advantage to hit are either out of range(Kinshin knight), can hit him with magic damage(Oni chieftan) or can have weapon advantage(Mechanists). There remain one are Sniper and Automaton but one only present on Takumi chapter and other not very treatful.

 

- You ignoring the advantage of flying unit to move easily through terrain and obstacle. 

 

As much I care, have good stats, lose the horse weakness and have a better hitting is already worth my heart seal on conquest.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

As a final nail in the coffin, Hero!Xander tanks the Zerker+General room leagues better than both of Pal!Xander and WL!Xander combined.

Except that requires marrying Charlotte or Selena, or A+ing Laslow. Also, I'd consider it better to lure the Berserkers and Generals somewhere where Freeze staves won't ruin my day. Needless to say, having Xander give up his horse compromises that, because he can't outrun the Berserkers any more.

2 hours ago, starburst said:

But I visit all three houses before facing the enemies not in the direct south path. Other than those three dark mages, only a couple of reinforcements will chase you, the others will not attack you if you are not in their range. Try it.

· Corrin visits the first house in turn 1, and Silas, Elise and Felicia should move as west as possible.
· In turn 2, Corrin groups with Elise, Odin and Niles appear, you pair-up everyone and move them all to the middle of the lake.
· In turn 3, you kill the dark mages in the south (Felicia, Niles and Silas or Effie plus a free kill for Odin.)
· You reach the second house with Felicia, Niles or Silas's pair-up in turn 4 (Flora will waste her staff uses freezing the character with more movement, Silas.)
· You 'secure' the third house by turn 5. Even if you do not visit it within five turns, you only need to 'block' the lancer, for no other enemy moves into that direction.

In my experience, recruiting Anna early (before Chapter 10) requires a fast magic user (Odin/Nyx + Felicia) and Niles + Arthur (whom I do not use, but he gives Niles great bonuses), then it is all a matter of positioning and luring the berserker into a choke point in the south-eastern part of the map. Mark the berserker with the magic axe, the one with the great axe that drains his HP, and the bosses. The first one cannot kill Niles, Felicia or Elise, who have high resistance and speed; the second will most likely commit suicide if you are paired-up, and the bosses... well, they are just a pain in the ass. Not to mention that Anna may well die, no matter what you do; it is a trial an error map. I usually takes me two to four attempts to recruit her.

Lastly, yes, Hinoka relies on her healer, but that gives you fifteen turns to train. Let Azura sing to Camilla, and she and Elise will actually attack Hinoka twice within those turns. Leave everyone outside the attack range or Hinoka's party, position Camilla within Hinoka's range and Elise right next to her, outside the attack range. Camilla's magic will barely affect Hinoka and Elise's attack will be halved, for she is in attack stance. Then let Azura sing to Camilla, attack again, and finally let Elise heal Camilla. All three will get some experience points (which were almost unavailable to them within the entire map, for they were over-levelled) and, most importantly, Elise and Camilla should gain a tome rank and support points.

If a character only gets a couple of experience points per kill, I only use them as pair-ups, walls (Xander and Leo) or position-bonuses (Camilla, Elise and, sometimes, Felicia.) I let those experience points go to the characters who can actually gain a level.

The thing is, I tend to swat any flies that try to interfere or that would cause me issues if left unchecked.

I generally manage to recruit her before chapter 10, so that's not much of a problem. But you talked about having recruited her before chapter 9.

I see you failed to address my point about Camilla being better off as a Wyvern Lord in any way, shape or form. Also, this is assuming that Elise is promoted by then, which needless to say, I'm not willing to bust my ass to make happen.

15 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

Let me be frank as well - Do you really don't have any other units to counter Berseker? Let me be more frank - Do you really need to worry about a enemy that appear only one end game chapter ?

The only other enemy that you cannot face safely is bow user but are you serious use him as bow counter? Do you fear bows so much?

Yes, because they have high crit and can and will fuck me over if given half a chance. And most of the units I use can't take more than one hit from them.

Snipers are trouble because of their high crit chance. Need I say more? Also, one of the chapters that I consider most troublesome (chapter 23) is rife with them.

8 hours ago, JSND said:

Its actually 2 grand

 

And that 2 grand investment gave you a character who can solo the next 4-5 chapter, and poops Siegfried, Shurikenbreaker, Spirit Dust, and like one the best character in the game in Ophelia(because Dwyer is fucking broken so he's the obvious best anyway)

Explain.

Also, I don't really see Nosferatu as worth it because it has the same issue as Sol does in this game - the healing is only noticeable if the enemy's healthy - and that's on top of IntSys breaking Nosferatu's arms and legs. Also, I don't see what makes Dwyer so amazing, in no small part because I can't be bothred to play as a girl and thus Jakob joins late.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Koumal8]

49 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

Let start with the easier one:

- I agree with hero!xander is the most tanking one but aside that, what else he have? Do you really need so tank unit?

well, Xander's main point is being a tanky hard hitter, since the only threat to his tankiness are beastslayers, outside of magic, why not remove it? btw I'm not saying Hero is always the better choice, only in the last few chapters where 8 mov is no longer that useful and so that he can better tank the General+Zerker room; I mean, the tankier he is in the endgame the better, it's not like any harm is being done to his offense; though I repeat, I'm not advocating Hero!Xander is best!Xander, only in the last two chapters + endgame if at all, I haven't used him enough after all to debate on his effectiveness

- On fates there only 3 units that are actualy good on enemy phase: Ryouma, Xander and Camilla(four if you consider early game Effie). Any other scenario, you care more about the units survive the enemies' attacks unless they hard counter the enemies. Being good on enemies phase have much less value on fates.

what do you mean exactly with "good ep unit"? those may be the only units, bar corrin, who can ORKO multiple enemies on ep, but regardless of that any unit can bait and kill the appropriate classes; anyway, if there are so few units with ep capability, I'd say it's quite the opposite, it means that being one of them has even more value

-Try to bait a mage with Xander only because he have a 2 range weapon seem the most stupid idea ever. If you really want tank them, at least you should have Guardnaginata or hexlock spear which both are C rank lance and give up the counterattack that can still miss.

maybe I wasn't clear enough, all I wrote is that Xander is one the worse units you could use to bait mages, but he's probably even worse at doing it as a WL due to no Siegfried for powerful retaliation and even less speed (I'm fairly sure WL have less spd base than paladins, how often does he get doubled in your experience?)

- The two chapter where WL!xander 's fly ability are very good are within the most hateful chapters.

true

- WL!xander have much more reliable OHKO(more hit chance and 4 more strenght) and there many more enemies that Pal!Xander have issue to hit: all the blue weapon unit. Most the common enemies wich he have weapon advantage to hit are either out of range(Kinshin knight), can hit him with magic damage(Oni chieftan) or can have weapon advantage(Mechanists). There remain one are Sniper and Automaton but one only present on Takumi chapter and other not very treatful.

I don't know, on Hard I rarely have trouble hitting stuff with Xander bar SMasters, Ninjas and maybe, just maybe, the Peg knight line; he also has no troubles fighting Oni Chieftains and Mechanists in my experience, OC have low mag and bad hit rates, Mech have low avoid, and I'm not sure how good he is against KK as a WL: does he oneshot them? because he's certainly NOT doubling them and they instead have effective damage against him, probably double him and have Air Superiority (I'm pretty sure they have it in the Hinoka cpater on Hard); I'm not sure why you're using a flyer unit to counter the specialized flier-killer of the game

- You ignoring the advantage of flying unit to move easily through terrain and obstacle. 

I'm not ignoring it, I just don't know if it's worth the loss Siegfried but... de gustibus

As much I care, have good stats, lose the horse weakness and have a better hitting is already worth my heart seal on conquest.

 

55 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except that requires marrying Charlotte or Selena, or A+ing Laslow. Also, I'd consider it better to lure the Berserkers and Generals somewhere where Freeze staves won't ruin my day. Needless to say, having Xander give up his horse compromises that, because he can't outrun the Berserkers any more.

OMG, in what world is using Charlotte as a Zerker pair up bot for Xander a bad thing? They should get together in the span of 5 chapters or so; Selena is not a bad pair up bot either, a solid unit on her own if you want to use her in combat and if you favor attack stance she can actually keep up with him movement wise either by reclassing immediately to Peg Knight (if that's your thing) or by promoting to BK (it should happen around Ch.17, or at least that's when I start promoting non-Corrin units)

Seriously, what am I missing?

[Shadow Mir]

9 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

OMG, in what world is using Charlotte as a Zerker pair up bot for Xander a bad thing? They should get together in the span of 5 chapters or so; Selena is not a bad pair up bot either, a solid unit on her own if you want to use her in combat and if you favor attack stance she can actually keep up with him movement wise either by reclassing immediately to Peg Knight (if that's your thing) or by promoting to BK (it should happen around Ch.17, or at least that's when I start promoting non-Corrin units)

Seriously, what am I missing?

The one where I have a mind of my own and might be willing to marry them off to someone else (which is also the one where I think that deploying Charlotte just to be a pair up bot is a hell of a wasted unit slot). Also, this is ignoring my opinion on Berserkers in general, and Charlotte (which is that they suck).

Edited September 3, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Koumal8]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The one where I have a mind of my own and might be willing to marry them off to someone else (which is also the one where I think that deploying Charlotte just to be a stat backpack is a wasted unit slot).

I don't see the problem in making Xander a one-man-army at the cost a unit's slot, +8 Str and +5 Spd on frigging Xander is worth a lot in my book; who do you usually marry him to then? I never really considered any spouses for him other than Selena/Charlotte

[Shadow Mir]

7 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

I don't see the problem in making Xander a one-man-army at the cost a unit's slot, +8 Str and +5 Spd on frigging Xander is worth a lot in my book; who do you usually marry him to then? I never really considered any spouses for him other than Selena/Charlotte

By the Hammer of Harmon... You haven't given much thought as to whom you're addressing, have you? Fine, I'll spell it out. You're addressing he who considers Charlotte, and Berserkers in general, lower than dirt. As for your question, since he happens to be the last dad to join, he gets whomever is left, assuming I went out of my way to marry off everyone else by that point (I ended up marrying him off to Peri in my current run).

[Koumal8]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

By the Hammer of Harmon... You haven't given much thought as to whom you're addressing, have you? Fine, I'll spell it out. You're addressing he who considers Charlotte, and Berserkers in general, lower than dirt. As for your question, since he happens to be the last dad to join, he gets whomever is left, assuming I went out of my way to marry off everyone else by that point (I ended up marrying him off to Peri in my current run).

That is exactly why I thought why of all people would be okay with it: you don't have to deploy Charlotte, you use of a Master Seal on her as soon as you recruit her, glue her to Xander and never let her see the light of day nor the shaft of an axe. Also, planning out your marriages seems like a much more sound thing to do to me, though something tells me you're not that interested in hearing how Peri is a really underwhelming partner for Xandre gameplaywise. I was under the assumption that everyone planned out their pairings in Fates, good pairs can net you quite the benefits (and I'm not talking about the children everyone is so freaking obsessed with)

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Also, I don't really see Nosferatu as worth it because it has the same issue as Sol does in this game - the healing is only noticeable if the enemy's healthy - and that's on top of IntSys breaking Nosferatu's arms and legs. Also, I don't see what makes Dwyer so amazing, in no small part because I can't be bothred to play as a girl and thus Jakob joins late.

Nosferatu are still good enough in this game. The point you made about enemy's health is exactly why Odin is the best Nosferatu user in the game(while Nyx's kinda bad) he's basically on a "2HKO" range most game. The nerf to doubling is made up by Guard gauge

Dwyer is actually ridiculous, probably the most ridiculous children because of the same reason as Jakob - he's an x/15 when everyone else is a 15/x. Granted accesing Dwyer in itself breaks the game so a huge part of it comes from that

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Koumal8 said:

That is exactly why I thought why of all people would be okay with it: you don't have to deploy Charlotte, you use of a Master Seal on her as soon as you recruit her, glue her to Xander and never let her see the light of day nor the shaft of an axe. Also, planning out your marriages seems like a much more sound thing to do to me, though something tells me you're not that interested in hearing how Peri is a really underwhelming partner for Xandre gameplaywise. I was under the assumption that everyone planned out their pairings in Fates, good pairs can net you quite the benefits (and I'm not talking about the children everyone is so freaking obsessed with)

You thought wrong. First off, there are only so many Master Seals to go around for most of the game, and two, because of (1), those have the names of units I know I'm planning to use full-time on them, NOT benchwarmers. Also, my marrying Xander to Peri was more of a Pair the Spares thing, since she was the only potential wife left over once everything was said and done. You must have different standards of what it means to be a one-man army, too, because even if I tethered Xander to Charlotte, guess what? He still fails to double most anything that isn't a general.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[starburst]

8 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

I was being sarcastic. Tell me I'm an elitist f**k, I don't care, I know how boss abuse/dance spam/staff spam work, I used those strategies as well in my first few playthroughs, but reading about them now admittedly makes me chuckle, if only because between two players playing the game, regardless of time constraints, the one who does not take advantage of such cheap strategies is just a better player than the one who does (early-game healers and all dancers are supposed to be squishy and to need protection, if I overlevel them to the point where they start being able to take 2 or even 3 hits, or where they start to dodge-tank anything, you're not playing the game as it was intended to be played, you're just preventing yourself from becoming a better player by learning how to juggle your playstyle around protecting squishy units while still remaining on the offensive)

The reason I'm telling you all this is not to convince you to do otherwise: everyone has the right to play the game however they may wish to, if that's how you enjoy the game, well, I'm happy for you! Just please, when discussing a unit's viability (which is what was being done here about Samurai!Odin vs Mage!Odin) don't bring as an argument the fact that "if I boss abuse he becomes good" because... it's just a moot point. [...]

Though I must say I'm tempted to try your strat for Odin's join level, it doesn't take much to reach chapter 8 after all, and even tough going in the middle of the map seems tantamount to suicide, you're saying it works, so... yeah. On what difficulty does it work in your experience?

I stated my opinion on Dark Mage Odin vs. Samurai Odin before mentioning the levelling-up. But do I understand your points, no worries. It is a matter of where one draws the line.

You see, among the most popular threads (here and everywhere) are those about My Castle Resources (weapons, characters, ore), Marriages and Skill Requests, which I find cheap, but choose no to argue with them. It may appeal to many to build the ultimate completist party, with +7 weapons and fancy implausible skills for everyone; but it is definitely not what I am looking for.

I do not visit castles to recruit characters or to buy skills and weapons that would otherwise be unavailable to me, nor do I use campaign 'gifts' or 'records', nor do I 'promote' characters to DLC classes early. Again, it is a matter of where one draws the line.
 

And I do not Abuse Bosses as much as you seem to believe, I just 'round up' the levels. Say that Odin or Niles need 45 Exp points to level-up in Chapter 8; well, I face Kilma until they get those points and then finish the chapter. It is not that I levelled-up Odin five levels facing Kilma, I 'rounded up' one level.

Same goes for weapon ranks. By the end of Chapter 9, Niles, Mozu or Anna may need a couple of attacks to gain a bow rank; well, I pair-up Effie with them and attack Haitaka until they gain that rank. Elise and Felicia/Jakob provide position-bonuses and Azura makes sure that the healers are ready. It is not that Niles went from bow rank D to rank B in that chapter, I 'rounded up' his rank (to C, most likely.)

About my approach to Chapter 8, I do it in Hard Classic. In case that it was not clear: I visit the three houses in the south, close to Flora; and only then I face the enemies up north (who do not chase you if you are not within their attack range.)
I may replay it just to document it and be able to provide more details.


 

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I generally manage to recruit her before chapter 10, so that's not much of a problem. But you talked about having recruited her before chapter 9.

I see you failed to address my point about Camilla being better off as a Wyvern Lord in any way, shape or form. Also, this is assuming that Elise is promoted by then, which needless to say, I'm not willing to bust my ass to make happen.

I have recruited Anna right after Chapter 8, but with Archer Mozu already in my party. If I cannot do it in six attempts or so, I wait until Azura and Nyx join the party.
I have not really taken Anna's recruitment as a serious challenge, but I will pay more attention to it on my next campaign. On this run, my challenge was to complete the Before Awakening DLC with all conversations right after Chapter 8 (Ophelia's conversation is still missing, though.)

And I do not have an opinion on Camilla as a Wyvern Lord, for I have never used that class.
By Chapter 14, Camilla is still only used as a pair-up or position-bonus, for she would get very few Exp points per kill. I may re-class her this time, once she reaches level 5.

Edited September 4, 2017 by starburst