Conquest Odin -- Heart Seal Viability

[SpearOfLies]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Yes, because they have high crit and can and will fuck me over if given half a chance. And most of the units I use can't take more than one hit from them.

Snipers are trouble because of their high crit chance. Need I say more? Also, one of the chapters that I consider most troublesome (chapter 23) is rife with them.

As much I concern, I just need one unit who have enough def to take a crit to bait them and have the rest of my team wreck them. 

I don't remember so much that chapter but snipers out of wall was just annoying because of counter while the ones within aren't much stronger but the position to go in was very bad.

2 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

what do you mean exactly with "good ep unit"? those may be the only units, bar corrin, who can ORKO multiple enemies on ep, but regardless of that any unit can bait and kill the appropriate classes; anyway, if there are so few units with ep capability, I'd say it's quite the opposite, it means that being one of them has even more value

Unit that can tank and also deal a meaningful amount of damage against enemies as counter. Pre fates people care very much to this when evaluating a unit.(also I forgot to add Corrin, ops) 

With the right setup anyone can do this but how frequently you can do this? I setup my silas to ORKO any falcon knight on wind tribe chapter. Did this make him good ep unit? Nope, he is not gonna do any meanful amount of damage against any other units except the one who he can do effective damage.

3 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

I don't know, on Hard I rarely have trouble hitting stuff with Xander bar SMasters, Ninjas and maybe, just maybe, the Peg knight line; he also has no troubles fighting Oni Chieftains and Mechanists in my experience, OC have low mag and bad hit rates, Mech have low avoid, and I'm not sure how good he is against KK as a WL: does he oneshot them? because he's certainly NOT doubling them and they instead have effective damage against him, probably double him and have Air Superiority (I'm pretty sure they have it in the Hinoka cpater on Hard); I'm not sure why you're using a flyer unit to counter the specialized flier-killer of the game

As oneshot beastkiller can do the job. This aside, how can you assume that the Kinshin knight are faster than WL!Xander to double while omnyouji not to Pal!Xander? Didn't kinshin knight are much slower than omnyouji or I remember wrong?

 

You don't need him to kill flyer anti flyer, you need him to activate the dragon veins when you need it and kill any flyer that are out of range of your other unit and repositioning better through the trees. I didn't have difficulty at all on this chapter on hard on my first playthough. I had Camilla and Elise as fryer royal. The boss Hinata annoying me much more.

[Koumal8]

5 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

As oneshot beastkiller can do the job. This aside, how can you assume that the Kinshin knight are faster than WL!Xander to double while omnyouji not to Pal!Xander? Didn't kinshin knight are much slower than omnyouji or I remember wrong?

Yeah yeah, you're right, he most certainly oneshots them with the beastslayer and I keep forgetting abut those dragon veins; I don't have the data (actually, is there data about Fates enemies stored anywhere on the web?) but I'm fairly sure KKs are a bit faster than Onmys (same class growth, 1 more base spd) and WL is quite a bit slower than Pal (3 base spd difference); however in the end it doesn't matter, I'm sold on the fact that WL!Xander is probably more effective than Pal!Xander in Hinoka's Chapter and probably even in Fuga's chapter, though Pal+Siegfried still seems better in every other instance (I guess you need the earlier chapters to grind weapon ranks, do you find axes of any use with this build?)

[Shadow Mir]

33 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

As much I concern, I just need one unit who have enough def to take a crit to bait them and have the rest of my team wreck them. 

I don't remember so much that chapter but snipers out of wall was just annoying because of counter while the ones within aren't much stronger but the position to go in was very bad.

Those Berserkers have anywhere from 45 to 52 atk on Hard (except for Hans, who has 64 atk; also, two of them have Quick Draw, one of those being the Brave Axe Berserker)... yeah, I doubt you're going to find anyone who can take a crit from that without being an armor, which just gets rekt by the hammers down there.

The wall is the main problem in part because everyone rushes you, and there are some Lunge Spearmasters there ready to screw you over.

33 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

As oneshot beastkiller can do the job. This aside, how can you assume that the Kinshin knight are faster than WL!Xander to double while omnyouji not to Pal!Xander? Didn't kinshin knight are much slower than omnyouji or I remember wrong?

 

You don't need him to kill flyer anti flyer, you need him to activate the dragon veins when you need it and kill any flyer that are out of range of your other unit and repositioning better through the trees. I didn't have difficulty at all on this chapter on hard on my first playthough. I had Camilla and Elise as fryer royal. The boss Hinata annoying me much more.

Sure, except Beast Killer has WTD against the bows Kinshis use, and some of them have Air Superiority to drop hit rates that might already be shaky even further down the gutter.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SpearOfLies]

6 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

Yeah yeah, you're right, he most certainly oneshots them with the beastslayer and I keep forgetting abut those dragon veins; I don't have the data (actually, is there data about Fates enemies stored anywhere on the web?) but I'm fairly sure KKs are a bit faster than Onmys (same class growth, 1 more base spd) and WL is quite a bit slower than Pal (3 base spd difference); however in the end it doesn't matter, I'm sold on the fact that WL!Xander is probably more effective than Pal!Xander in Hinoka's Chapter and probably even in Fuga's chapter, though Pal+Siegfried still seems better in every other instance (I guess you need the earlier chapters to grind weapon ranks, do you find axes of any use with this build?)

I used the kitsune chapter to grinder lance to C and axe to D and there quite amount of red and blue unit after. There is the ryouma chapter with the annoying ninjas and there is a pillar that slow you down to kill them if I remember correctly. I still on fuga chapter so I still testing it.

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Those Berserkers have anywhere from 45 to 52 atk on Hard (except for Hans, who has 64 atk; also, two of them have Quick Draw, one of those being the Brave Axe Berserker)... yeah, I doubt you're going to find anyone who can take a crit from that without being an armor, which just gets rekt by the hammers down there.

The wall is the main problem in part because everyone rushes you, and there are some Lunge Spearmasters there ready to screw you over.

Sure, except Beast Killer has WTD against the bows Kinshis use, and some of them have Air Superiority to drop hit rates that might already be shaky even further down the gutter.

Xander+Elise+Rally def can get to def you need.

 

Do you mean the outside part? I remember you have one turn to kill all the melee before the sniper reach you if you plan correctly but I don't know what units you use and by how you talk bad about most of unit doesn't help.

 

I just say he can oneshot them, I'm not gonna hoping to kill them wich WL!Xander. This go against the point to reclass him to get more consistent hit. I have 100% hit chance against falcon knight and on the wind tribe chapter, sometimes you bow user cannot kill/reach all of them.

[Agro]

14 hours ago, JSND said:

Dwyer is actually ridiculous, probably the most ridiculous children because of the same reason as Jakob - he's an x/15 when everyone else is a 15/x. Granted accesing Dwyer in itself breaks the game so a huge part of it comes from that

Huh? Dwyer comes unpromoted until past Chapter 18, I believe. What are you talking about?

Edited September 4, 2017 by Agro

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

5 minutes ago, Agro said:

Huh? Dwyer comes unpromoted until past Chapter 18, I believe. What are you talking about?

Being fathered by Jakob means he can ride on Jakob's advantages through inheritance which is pretty damn broken if planned out properly

The game breaking part of him refers to how ridiculously broken Children paralogues are in this game in general with Dwyer being the most notable. I remember in reddit i saw someone mentioned how Dwyer Paralogue completely destroys the power curve of Conquest which makes him restricted in drafts

[Koumal8]

2 minutes ago, JSND said:

Being fathered by Jakob means he can ride on Jakob's advantages through inheritance which is pretty damn broken if planned out properly

The game breaking part of him refers to how ridiculously broken Children paralogues are in this game in general with Dwyer being the most notable. I remember in reddit i saw someone mentioned how Dwyer Paralogue completely destroys the power curve of Conquest which makes him restricted in drafts

I don't draft, but restricted Dwyer is most certainly not a thing here on SF; also how are children paralogues "broken"? How can a chapter be "broken"? I wasn't aware that chapters had base stats and growths.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

38 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

I don't draft, but restricted Dwyer is most certainly not a thing here on SF; also how are children paralogues "broken"? How can a chapter be "broken"? I wasn't aware that chapters had base stats and growths.

Its not the chapter itself that is "broken". Its what you get from the chapter that is "broken". Like FE7 Lyn Mode is broken but that doesn't mean Lyn Mode have base stats and growth

[Koumal8]

4 minutes ago, JSND said:

Its not the chapter itself that is "broken". Its what you get from the chapter that is "broken". Like FE7 Lyn Mode is broken but that doesn't mean Lyn Mode have base stats and growth

I highly doubt anything coming out of LM is "broken", but I digress, since I never played FE7 oh Hard; Dwyer's paralogue nets you a Friendship seal + a Talisman (and I doubt these are "broken" in any way), some additional exp (like every other Paralogue does) and Dwyer himself. Could you please provide some clear and solid arguments about how Dwyer is "broken" (you're the first person advocating it AFAIK)?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

3 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

I highly doubt anything coming out of LM is "broken", but I digress, since I never played FE7 oh Hard; Dwyer's paralogue nets you a Friendship seal + a Talisman (and I doubt these are "broken" in any way), some additional exp (like every other Paralogue does) and Dwyer himself. Could you please provide some clear and solid arguments about how Dwyer is "broken" (you're the first person advocating it AFAIK)?

The EXP from paralogue is ussually like 3 chapters or so ahead of what its supposed to be(Kanna is like 6 chapter ahead last time i did it)

My main point with Dwyer being "Broken" really comes from the Fathered by Jakob factor, with the paralogue mention being an extra

[Koumal8]

Just now, JSND said:

The EXP from paralogue is ussually like 3 chapters or so ahead of what its supposed to be(Kanna is like 6 chapter ahead last time i did it)

sorry, but for the life of me I don't understand what you mean: you're saying that paralogues give so much exp that they put you well ahead the level curve? you're saying they're balanced around being done three chapters later than wherever you're at in the maingame? also, whatever it is you're saying, I usually do paralogues after chapter 18 and they most certainly do not give you any more exp than a normal chapter, and I play on Hard, which means that in Lunatic they're gonna give you even less exp

My main point with Dwyer being "Broken" really comes from the Fathered by Jakob factor, with the paralogue mention being an extra

you're still being too vague for my tastes: assuming you're using female corrin (otherwise neither Jakob nor his son are likely to see any significant use) what is it that makes Dwyer so "broken"? Skill inheritance? And what skills are you having him inherit that make him "broken"? Tome-breaker and Inspiration from Butler/strategist are very nice but not broken in the least, and from the Cavalier line neither Aegis nor Armored Blow are worth writing home about; it doesn't help Dwyer's case the fact that he's doing jack s**t in his join chapter due to his placement and if not immediately reclassed (I'd say pre-ch.11/12) he's just just an above average healer stat-wise doomed to be forever inferior to Elise due to less movement; if you recruit him later and insta-seal him to Strategist, he's on par with Elise healing-wise, marginally better combat-wise (though I don't know if any parent gives him Elise's almost min-maxed spread of Mag-Spd-Lck) and on par with Niles/Mr.Boots who offer acceptable healing capabilities on top of locktouch and anti-flyers utility

the reason I'm being so skeptical is that "Dwyer is broken" is a pretty strong claim and as the saying goes "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs" (at least in Italian, the original might be a bit different in english, sorry XD )

 

[Shadow Mir]

7 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

Xander+Elise+Rally def can get to def you need.

 

Do you mean the outside part? I remember you have one turn to kill all the melee before the sniper reach you if you plan correctly but I don't know what units you use and by how you talk bad about most of unit doesn't help.

 

I just say he can oneshot them, I'm not gonna hoping to kill them wich WL!Xander. This go against the point to reclass him to get more consistent hit. I have 100% hit chance against falcon knight and on the wind tribe chapter, sometimes you bow user cannot kill/reach all of them.

True enough, except without Siegfried, he can't counter the Tomahawks (or has to use a weak weapon to do so).

I meant the wall part where Oboro is - that part always stymies me because I can't stay up there too long (as in more than one turn), else the Lunge Spearmasters screw me over.

More consistent hit against. . . what exactly?

[DragonFlames]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

True enough, except without Siegfried, he can't counter the Tomahawks (or has to use a weak weapon to do so).

I meant the wall part where Oboro is - that part always stymies me because I can't stay up there too long (as in more than one turn), else the Lunge Spearmasters screw me over.

More consistent hit against. . . what exactly?

(Master) Ninjas and Spear Masters maybe? I can imagine that an axe of any kind (barring the Dual Club) gives you more Hit against those guys than Siegfried can, since you'll have a Weapon Triangle Advantage.

Do the Lunge Spear Masters on the wall have any ranged weapons by any chance? If not, you might be able to kill them on Enemy Phase if you have someone with a Spearbreaker Club or whatever it's called.
Just asking out of curiosity, since I haven't gotten to that part in my Hard Mode tries, but I am determined to do it this time, so a little knowledge of what's to come would certainly help.

[Shadow Mir]

7 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

(Master) Ninjas and Spear Masters maybe? I can imagine that an axe of any kind (barring the Dual Club) gives you more Hit against those guys than Siegfried can, since you'll have a Weapon Triangle Advantage.

Do the Lunge Spear Masters on the wall have any ranged weapons by any chance? If not, you might be able to kill them on Enemy Phase if you have someone with a Spearbreaker Club or whatever it's called.
Just asking out of curiosity, since I haven't gotten to that part in my Hard Mode tries, but I am determined to do it this time, so a little knowledge of what's to come would certainly help.

Maybe, but I still think losing Siegfried alone is enough for it to be a flat-out losing trade. Also, there's the whole thing about having only D lances and E axes.

They don't (one has a Steel Naginata, the other a Silver Naginata), but it's the four Snipers that are the main issue.

[DragonFlames]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Maybe, but I still think losing Siegfried alone is enough for it to be a flat-out losing trade. Also, there's the whole thing about having only D lances and E axes.

They don't (one has a Steel Naginata, the other a Silver Naginata), but it's the four Snipers that are the main issue.

No arguments there.

The two Spear Master plus four Sniper combo sounds pretty insane. Let me guess: They have Seal skills, too?

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, DragonFlames said:

The two Spear Master plus four Sniper combo sounds pretty insane. Let me guess: They have Seal skills, too?

They don't, but it's not like they need them to screw you over.

[DragonFlames]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

They don't, but it's not like they need them to screw you over.

True, but it would've made the whole thing even more screw-y. I can imagine some horrid scenario where a Spear Master seals you, then a Sniper comes in and one-shots you, because your Defence is too low.
The solution seems to be to either kill them all in one turn (how, though?) or take them down one by one by going up and down the stairway. Thanks for answering my questions, Levant!

[joshcja]

3 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

Stuff

Dywer's paraloge gives some pretty sick loot if you one turn it to save his armor bro's.

If you grind it the exp is absurd (20/x dude waaay early), and it's availible before ch9 without scumming MC for points.

-------------------------------

Odin realisticly gets 2-2.5 levels in ch8 safely in casual play then you sit his ass on the throne in invasion 1 holding nos+waifu and go make a sandwich to build death. Samurai Odin is lame but vantage+life or death is beyond busted on a sorc.

Leo is worse than Odin because he builds to vantage sloooowly and Odin litteraly makes a better unit with his dick before Leo's join chapter.

Edited September 4, 2017 by joshcja

[Koumal8]

3 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Dywer's paraloge gives some pretty sick loot if you one turn it to save his armor bro's.

If you grind it the exp is absurd (20/x dude waaay early), and it's availible before ch9 without scumming MC for points.

Odin realisticly gets 2-2.5 leveks in ch8 safely in casual play then you sit his ass on the throne in invasion 1 holding nos and go make a sandwich to build death. Samurai Odin is lame but vantage+life or death is beyond busted on a sorc.

The wiki says that if all green units survive you get Talisman + Friendship Seal, not really what I'd call "sick loot"; also I never played Dwyer's paralogue, how can you get so much exp? Are there neverending reinforcements, a bunch of weak lv.20 guys?

I won't argue about Sorc!Odin, my opinion is that Samurai!Odin is easier to use and can be worth the seal depending on your planned team, but as far as Mage!Odin is ocncerned I never tried out his Nosferatu tanking build, so I'll refrain from discussing it (though it's not the first time I hear he works exceptionally well)

[Shadow Mir]

36 minutes ago, joshcja said:

If you grind it the exp is absurd (20/x dude waaay early), and it's availible before ch9 without scumming MC for points.

One, this requires playing as a female Corrin, and two, I call BS because even if you got enough support points between her and Jakob to get C support before chapter 7, you still have three more ranks to go through, and I VERY highly doubt she'd achieve S with Jakob in just three chapters. . .

39 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Odin realisticly gets 2-2.5 levels in ch8 safely in casual play then you sit his ass on the throne in invasion 1 holding nos+waifu and go make a sandwich to build death. Samurai Odin is lame but vantage+life or death is beyond busted on a sorc.

Except for the part where level 15 skills came so late unless your name is Felicia or Jakob, they ain't gonna be relevant long enough to do much of note.

[joshcja]

Every non-mc abuse ltc gets the marrige by ch9. It's a thing.

Vantage sorc can hit 20/15 in ch20. Killing maps gives a large amount of exp. Realisticly you hit 20/15 in ch22 and do a paraloge for LoD, you don't actually need the damage boost before ch23.

Edited September 4, 2017 by joshcja

[Shadow Mir]

3 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Every non-mc abuse ltc gets the marrige by ch9. It's a thing.

Vantage sorc hits 20/15 in ch22. Killing maps gives a large amount of exp.

Sounds believable... EXCEPT NOT! Even with a C support before chapter 7, it takes two fights to get from B to A and A to S. And you only have four fights before chapter 9 (7, 8, Mozu, invasion 1).

Edited September 4, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[joshcja]

Really strong facetouching rolls + seed of trust + fast support.

3 chapters, 4 if you do invasion 1.

It works.

Edited September 4, 2017 by joshcja

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, joshcja said:

Really strong facetouching rolls + seed of trust + fast support.

It works

One got removed in the American version, and one is something you likely won't get more than one of without some serious luck.

[joshcja]

Support from treehouse was not removed. Just the minigame.

In casual play there's no rng here, invasion one gaurentees porkilation.

Edited September 4, 2017 by joshcja