FE game with most wasted potential?

[Troykv]

Poor Generals.... you're always such a lame and weak class.

Fates has the most evident wasted potential, and the game itself attempted against the game's premise.

I also want to mention RD... The game that need to be two games to actually properly explain all the things happening here (include, and specially the Dawn Brigade, who were unable to get their story's explained in any way possible in the game... at least the background actually existed in the website and Tellius Recollection).

[Flee Fleet!]

I'd say Shadow Dragon had the most wasted potential, although it seems like a lot of people have already explained why. Oh well...

Shadow Dragon was basically way too faitful to the original games. I especially disliked the fact that there were no support convos between characters, since we couldn't get to know more of the characters, or see what their interactions would be with each other.

 Then there are the gaiden requirments: They could have come up with different gaiden requirements than simply killing off a number of units. In fact, I wouldn't have minded gaiden requirements being similar to the first sacrifice you have to make in the Prologues (which is Easy mode only) to progress in the game, or being similar to the requirements needed to get Nagi.

 

 

[Emperor Hardin]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

 

They do establish that early on... but the monster fights before lategame felt more like filler anyway, especially the ones in Eirika route.

And like I said, the few that were a legit threat (Dracozombies and Gorgons) didn't show up until the game was nearly over.

True enough, except for the part where this was during the point in time where most enemies were weak statistically (ffs, even in lategame, you still see enemies that don't even get out of double digit Hit... on Hard Mode), and evade was reliable; it doesn't really help matters that terrain was plentiful. To drive the point home... here are some stats:

  Reveal hidden contents

Lvl 5 Arch Mogalls: 28-30 HP, 21-22 Mag, 11-12 Skl, 10-11 Spd, 5-6 Lck, 5 Def, 14-16 Res

Shadowshot: 34-35 Atk, 94-97 Hit, 5-6 Avoid, 10-11 Crit, 0 AS

Crimson Eye: 35-36 Atk, 94-97 Hit, 9-12 Avoid, 10-11 Crit, 2-3 AS

Lvl 6 Gorgon: 33 HP, 25 Mag, 11 Skl, 12 Spd, 9 Lck, 9 Def, 16 Res

Demon Surge: 36 Atk, 106 Hit, 33 Avoid, 5 Crit

Stone: 91 Hit, 33 Avoid

Lvl 7 Gorgons: 32-33 HP, 25-26 Mag, 12-13 Skl, 10-12 Spd, 8-9 Lck, 8-9 Def, 17-19 Res

Demon Surge: 36-37 Atk, 108-110 Hit, 28-33 Avoid, 6 Crit

Stone: 93-95 Hit, 28-33 Avoid

These are enemies from the second to last chapter.

Well, Barst is one of the few good axe infantry units that I can think of (and this is in the ENTIRE SERIES, mind you)... but I'm struggling to think of any other good ones in the DS games. Anyways, my issue with Fighters in general is that most of them are, in a nutshell, good HP and Strength, but mediocre to outright awful everything else - needless to say, that ain't gonna take them far.

I'm not seeing your point about the Nohrian Lancers, because they're enemy only, for one, and second, you don't even see them much in the story (the ONE instance you actually see them in the story maps is in chapter 27 on Conquest... and they have both Counter AND Magicounter (not the actual skill name, but meh), thus making them a risk to engage on your turn unless you have good non-magic ranged options; harder difficulties give them Spendthrift, which allows them to do 10 extra damage AND take 10 less damage for that battle when they attack).

One of those is a Gaiden character, and the other is likely better off as a physical class. Now answer me honestly, why would I want to use Sorcerer Cord over, say, Berserker Cord or Horseman Cord?

And yet SD still dropped the ball in some aspects class wise (See: Mages, Myrmidons). I'm not saying that Echoes' class balance doesn't have its problems, but it's not like SD's class balance is all that great, because it ain't. That being said, whilst I haven't played Echoes yet (I still have other stuff I want), I HAVE watched someone play it on Youtube. And you're leaving me with something I want answered - you said earlier that enemies in Echoes Hard mode tend to have anti-armor capabilities. Does this amount to enemies packing anti-armor weapons, weapons with anti-armor combat arts, or both?

Thats an issue with monsters in general, so again this is something does as a whole with monsters, not something to whale on Sacred Stones alone for.

Thats not an issue with the monster classes of Sacred Stones, thats an issue with the difficulty levels in the game.

Berserker in both DS remakes, mind you. I already mentioned the characters who gain double HP on level ups just by being a fighter or pirate.

Nohrian Lancers are capturable and playable as an extra. Just like Dark Mages in Shadow Dragon Just like Dark Mages they aren't great, because they are there as an extra for the player.

You use sorcerer Cord, the same reason you use a Nohrian Lancer/Soldier, for heck of it.

SD's class balance is better then several games in the series, especially Echoes. The point was the DS remakes handled class balance and updating the gameplay better then Echoes, you have done nothing this isn't the case.

Weaponry in the post game dungeon. Point being Armors lost a lot and gained an extra weakness in Echoes. That is not good class balance.

Also Myrmidons bad in Shadow Dragon, what are you talking about?

31 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

I'd say Shadow Dragon had the most wasted potential, although it seems like a lot of people have already explained why. Oh well...

Shadow Dragon was basically way too faitful to the original games. I especially disliked the fact that there were no support convos between characters, since we couldn't get to know more of the characters, or see what their interactions would be with each other.

 Then there are the gaiden requirments: They could have come up with different gaiden requirements than simply killing off a number of units. In fact, I wouldn't have minded gaiden requirements being similar to the first sacrifice you have to make in the Prologues (which is Easy mode only) to progress in the game, or being similar to the requirements needed to get Nagi.

 

 

While I agree the lack of character additions is a disappointment and the gaiden requirements were bad, both the DS remakes were made on a smaller budget to cover for IS's loss from oversea sales of the Tellius games. They made back a lot of money from remaking their most popular entries.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Shadow Mir]

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Thats an issue with monsters in general, so again this is something does as a whole with monsters, not something to whale on Sacred Stones alone for.

Thats not an issue with the monster classes of Sacred Stones, thats an issue with the difficulty levels in the game.

Berserker in both DS remakes, mind you. I already mentioned the characters who gain double HP on level ups just by being a fighter or pirate.

Nohrian Lancers are capturable and playable as an extra. Just like Dark Mages in Shadow Dragon Just like Dark Mages they aren't great, because they are there as an extra for the player.

You use sorcerer Cord, the same reason you use a Nohrian Lancer/Soldier, for heck of it.

SD's class balance is better then several games in the series, especially Echoes. The point was the DS remakes handled class balance and updating the gameplay better then Echoes, you have done nothing this isn't the case.

Weaponry in the post game dungeon. Point being Armors lost a lot and gained an extra weakness in Echoes. That is not good class balance.

Also Myrmidons bad in Shadow Dragon, what are you talking about?

Maybe, but with the final boss being the leader of the monsters, one might expect monsters to show up more, no? That being said, this could ultimately be blamed on Sacred Stones being much too short.

Yeah, it's true - SS is easy.

You said earlier that there are only two Berserker slots, so that's a problem. Also, just how many units that don't start as a Fighter can be functional as one??

Which requires using Niles or Orochi, both of whom are hardly fantastic units (also, Niles is on a route where you can't grind, and Lancers are mostly only going to be seen in non-story fights).

Meh.

Says who, you, yourself, and you? Because you're literally the first person I've seen to claim this. And I still call BS on SD having good class balance considering that SD is largely horse and flyer-dominated, among other things.

Okay, so you're making a big deal out of postgame stuff WHY????

Sword-locked in a lance-dominated game. Need I say more? It doesn't help matters that evade got nerfed in SD.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[KoimanZX]

The major thing about the DS remakes is that there is not much of a reason for strength and magic to be separate stats. Besides the Levin Sword, there is no reason for physical attackers to have a magic stat. There are no mixed attackers, so the only reason for the split is to have a way to offset weapon weight (and gimp mages). Besides, the class growth rates make it so that the growth rate of the attack stat opposite of the one a given character uses essentially zero. And speaking of mages, there is not much of a reason to have the Sage and Bishop be separate classes as, besides the different bases and caps, they are practically the same as they come nowhere close to reaching their caps due to their low growths. Awakening had the right idea of merging them (as the both use basic tomes, anyway).

Otherwise the other problems were already mentioned. (Plus the fact that most prepromotes have terrible bases).

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

17 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Bold: Even though we're talking about a game from 1990 here? Are you freaking kidding me???

The rest: Personally, I wouldn't exactly call adding the weapon triangle much of an improvement as far as SD goes when everyone and their grandma uses lances. . . Hell, I dare say a remake adding a mechanic the game wasn't originally designed around can do more harm than good.

I'd really appreciate it, if you could save such offense in future posts.

Anyways yes, FE14 showed what could be made with FE11 in terms of characters's personality. However the intention of this remake was rather to give the players a chance who couldn't play the (JP) original, than to do a 100% change of the plot and gameplay.
Tbf I don't like it either that 95% of the characters are totally bland, but I'd be presumptous to blame IS only for that.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Aya Shameimaru

[Harvey]

Damn these FE11 comments....

Look let's get this straight, I will agree that FE11 IS a wasted potential. There's no doubt in that. But the reasons that are given for it being wasted are just borderline unfair such as

• Not having supports/waifu
• Not doing the weapon triangle properly
• Having bland plot & characters

These are not the real reasons why FE11 is wasted potential. Infact FE6 pretty much does this and yet people still love the hell out of the game.

The REAL reason why its bad is because

• Its graphics are ugly. I can get used to games with horrible visuals but this is the DS we're talking about here..a system that most devs would prefer to use pixel art over pre-rendered sprites which is odd because Advance Wars: Days of Ruin used pre-rendered graphics and that looked good.
• Lots of pointless features that made the game worse. There's hardly any reason for reclassing to happen here as you really don't get to use it much and its not needed atleast according to some experts in the game. Another pointless feature is that the game gives you generic units that are crappier than the units that you just got them killed. There is really no reason to this at all since the game gives you substitute units incase you somehow get screwed up.
• Ok...maybe some are right that bland characters can be part of the blame. But again, certain games like FE6 had them and yet that game is praised for its other things. So I'm not really sure that if this is the problem. But I do know that  no support conversations aren't the problem. Echoes while it had supports only had few noteworthy ones and that's that. So I don't think that FE11 could benefit by having supports.
• You need to kill your team to unlock gaiden chapters. While I get that they probably did this to help make the game unwinnable, its still poorly implemented due to locking out content in some fashion 

So there...that is the reason why FE11 is wasted potential.

 

[Flee Fleet!]

59 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Not having supports/waifu

The whole love confessions and waifu stuff was not present until Awakening came. 

 

14 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

While I agree the lack of character additions is a disappointment

I don't mind not having new characters added into the game. I'm more disappointed at how we didn't have supports, which would have likely made us know more about the characters, and how they interact with each other.

 

14 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

both the DS remakes were made on a smaller budget to cover for IS's loss from oversea sales of the Tellius games. They made back a lot of money from remaking their most popular entries.

Ah, then I guess it's understandable how the games turned out.

[ping]

FE11 isn't a bad game though... I mean, I would probably still name it as my least favourite FE game, but I really learned to appreciate it for what it does right. There might be too little writing for most FE players' taste, but the writing that SD has (or at least the English localization) is among the best the series has to offer. And that's why I agree with the majority here that SD has a lot of missed potential: It's great, but it could have been more. I especially agree that they really could have given at least some amount of characterization to the minor characters. Even though I really dislike most of Kris's characterization, at least their base convos give every recruitable character in FE12 a little bit of colour.

4 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

The whole love confessions and waifu stuff was not present until Awakening came. 

Yes and no - Awakening is the first game where the player him- or herself gets to choose a waifu/husbando, but the whole shipping business started as early as FE4. The amount of it goes up and down over time - FE6 has Roy's harem, but thanks to the extremely slow supports to any girl except Lilina (and Cecilia, to a degree), it's almost like an easter egg. FE7 and FE8's lords all have multiple romantic options, Tellius then tuned it down considerably and only has a few more or less canon pairings (like Boyd and Mist who both don't have any other possible romances)...

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Lots of pointless features that made the game worse. There's hardly any reason for reclassing to happen here as you really don't get to use it much and its not needed atleast according to some experts in the game. Another pointless feature is that the game gives you generic units that are crappier than the units that you just got them killed. There is really no reason to this at all since the game gives you substitute units incase you somehow get screwed up.

I know that the DS games' excessive reclassing options aren't universally liked, but I personally think they're one of the most fun additions to the series. It's probably for the better that Fates puts some limits on it, because it's hard to keep a unit unique (gameplaywise) if everyone can just switch into every class in the game, but I love to check which class works best for a certain unit's stats while they can - if possible - still make use of their weapon ranks. For example, I tend to use Myrm!Ryan in FE12 to boost his speed growth and because he can still use his bow rank after he promotes, not into a SM, but into a horseman. Or Fighter!Yubello - he's still a really bad unit, but I find it hilarious how the little timid prince's personal growths work reasonably well with the fighter class's stats.

Also, you can't really compare FE6 and FE11's level of characterization. Whether or not FE6's characters are "bland" is still a matter of opinion, but every single one has some characterization through their supports, even if they're otherwise irrelevant to the story. Take Treck - he doesn't have any impact at all on the plot, but we still know that he's as clearly portrayed as a stoner as he can be without mentioning the word "weed". Compare that to, say, Tomas in FE11, who to my knowledge doesn't even have a single line in the chapter he joins in.

[Harvey]

1 hour ago, ping said:

Also, you can't really compare FE6 and FE11's level of characterization.

Why not? After all, Fe6 is technically a reimagining of FE1 right?

1 hour ago, ping said:

but every single one has some characterization through their supports, even if they're otherwise irrelevant to the story.

Just because they have support conversations doesn't mean they have better characterization than the ones from FE1. Majority of them are just bland with nothing memorable to them nor do they do anything to represent the flaws in the characters and what they plan to do to make up for those flaws. On top of that, since supports are a pain in FE6, no one is going to even bother getting those conversations. The only ones worth getting are RoyxLillina, AllenxLance, PercevalXCecilla, FirXNoah, Rutger X Clarine and Rutger X Dieck but that's only because of the support bonuses that they offer and not the actual conversations themselves.

Also, a clear note here, there ARE conversations in FE11. Its just that they don't give bonuses whatsoever.

 

[Magical Glace]

11 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Just because they have support conversations doesn't mean they have better characterization than the ones from FE1. Majority of them are just bland with nothing memorable to them nor do they do anything to represent the flaws in the characters and what they plan to do to make up for those flaws. On top of that, since supports are a pain in FE6, no one is going to even bother getting those conversations. The only ones worth getting are RoyxLillina, AllenxLance, PercevalXCecilla, FirXNoah, Rutger X Clarine and Rutger X Dieck but that's only because of the support bonuses that they offer and not the actual conversations themselves.

Also, a clear note here, there ARE conversations in FE11. Its just that they don't give bonuses whatsoever.

Uh, no.

The vast majority of FE11's cast has 1-2 lines max.  FE6's cast at least has conversations, and distinct personalities shown in them, like Treck mentioned above.  Do I find Treck particularly interesting?  No, not really.  But I can tell you more about him than I can about pre-FE12 Dolph and Macellan.

Also, you kinda threw whatever credibility you had on FE11 supports out the window.  FE11 has bonuses, but not conversations for its support system.

[Harvey]

34 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

The vast majority of FE11's cast has 1-2 lines max.  FE6's cast at least has conversations, and distinct personalities shown in them, like Treck mentioned above.  Do I find Treck particularly interesting?  No, not really.  But I can tell you more about him than I can about pre-FE12 Dolph and Macellan

Then by your logic, whether the supports are there and whether or not FE6 does characterization better, the overall cast is still bland regardless and yet that's not really why FE6 is bashed so much now is it?

Also, having 1-2 lines max still doesn't change the fact that conversations are there regardless. So the ones who claim there should look carefully. 

 

 

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Then by your logic, whether the supports are there and whether or not FE6 does characterization better, the overall cast is still bland regardless and yet that's not really why FE6 is bashed so much now is it?

U wot m8? The overall cast of Binding Blade being bland is entirely subjective but it's pretty much a fact that they are more developed than anyone in Shadow Dragon who isn't Marth.

And FE6 isn't bashed that much. I've seen more complaints for Fates, Awakening, Radiant Dawn, Shadow Dragon and even Shadows of Valentia.

How do i know this isn't your anti-FE6 bias speaking?

[ping]

Are we seriously argueing whether or not Something is More than Nothing? Because it feels like we're discussion whether or not Something is More than Nothing.

FE6's supports are hidden behind a system that shows that it's the first time FE did it. But every single recruitable character has at least five supports, even though not every single support reveals another aspect of a given character. Every character has Something.

FE11 does not have any support conversations. It has bonuses, but no dialogues that go with them. A few characters do have a bit of characterization, like in the prologue, or the ones that Shiida recruits (and Shiida herself, of course). But in terms of characterization, a large part of the cast has Nothing.

It is my outspoken belief that Something is More than Nothing. Would you disagree?

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

Why not? After all, Fe6 is technically a reimagining of FE1 right?

No. They (and FE 3) have their similarities in their plot structure and probably more parallels between the recuitable characters than other FE games, but there are still tons of differences between them. As a completely random and not at all topical example, I'd like to point out that the level of characterization is quite different between them. I consider FE6 to be somewhat of a "back to the roots" game, but you could say the same about Final Fantasy IX and I can't imagine that anyone would consider the depths of characterization of FF9 and FF1 to be even remotely similar.

[Emperor Hardin]

10 hours ago, Flee Fleet! said:

I don't mind not having new characters added into the game. I'm more disappointed at how we didn't have supports, which would have likely made us know more about the characters, and how they interact with each other.

Thats what I mean by character additions, there's a lot of stuff thats in the notes, guides, and websites for background of almost all the characters.

Perfect for supports or similar to develop the cast.

More scenes of the the characters talking after recruitment also would've been great. Marth, Hardin, Minerva, and Nyna all discussing their plans as they near Macedon for example.

16 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Maybe, but with the final boss being the leader of the monsters, one might expect monsters to show up more, no? That being said, this could ultimately be blamed on Sacred Stones being much too short.

Yeah, it's true - SS is easy.

You said earlier that there are only two Berserker slots, so that's a problem. Also, just how many units that don't start as a Fighter can be functional as one??

Which requires using Niles or Orochi, both of whom are hardly fantastic units (also, Niles is on a route where you can't grind, and Lancers are mostly only going to be seen in non-story fights).

Meh.

Says who, you, yourself, and you? Because you're literally the first person I've seen to claim this. And I still call BS on SD having good class balance considering that SD is largely horse and flyer-dominated, among other things.

Okay, so you're making a big deal out of postgame stuff WHY????

Sword-locked in a lance-dominated game. Need I say more? It doesn't help matters that evade got nerfed in SD.

Again those aren't problems with monsters as classes as they are more useful then they've been in almost any Fire Emblem game.

Ogma, Caesar Wolf, Sedgar, Castor, and Dolph are all perfectly functional as Fighters/Warriors. Roger can also be good if he's put in a speed class like Hunter.

And getting a Sorcerer in SD requires reclassing one of your physical units or getting a consolation unit from losing a lot. Point being Sorcerer was put in first as Gharnef's class, then made accessible to the player as a treat just like Lancer.

There are dozens of topic on Echoes bad class balance with ludicrously overpowered Dread Fighters and Bow Knights, and ludicrously underpowered Barons/Generals.

DracoKnights and Paladins in SD are nowhere as busted as Bow Knights and Dread Fighters. 1-5 Range complete with good stat growths+mounted status and good resistance+halving all magic damage in a game filled with magic enemies. Every class in SD has a niche, this isn't the case in Echoes.

Its an extra weakness given to a class that already had any advantages taken away. They also took away the speed ring's 2 movement.

Weapon triangle matters much less then you think and their accuracy bonus is more useful then you'd think. The class has massive bases in skill and speed, as well as great class growths. There's a reason Navarre is high tier in both games.

Generals/Barons in Echoes, they are screwed.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Interdimensional Observer]

8 hours ago, Harvey said:

Just because they have support conversations doesn't mean they have better characterization than the ones from FE1. Majority of them are just bland with nothing memorable to them nor do they do anything to represent the flaws in the characters and what they plan to do to make up for those flaws. On top of that, since supports are a pain in FE6, no one is going to even bother getting those conversations. The only ones worth getting are RoyxLillina, AllenxLance, PercevalXCecilla, FirXNoah, Rutger X Clarine and Rutger X Dieck but that's only because of the support bonuses that they offer and not the actual conversations themselves.

FE6 invented the Support system- give it a break! It takes multiple installments to iron out the kinks- things were notably better in FE7. And not all FE6 supports are terrible- IgrenexAstolfo for instance.

By the time of SD on the other hand, they had 4 games of Supports (I'm excluding RD) and even more experience if you include the various little convos of Genealogy and Thracia and RD. And was there any great project taking up the writers' time in SD? No. They had an old plot they kept simple and added nowhere near as much to as SoV got vs. SRT OG Gaiden. The writers could have churned out plenty of half-decent supports if they tried.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Again those aren't problems with monsters as classes as they are more useful then they've been in almost any Fire Emblem game.

Ogma, Caesar Wolf, Sedgar, Castor, and Dolph are all perfectly functional as Fighters/Warriors. Roger can also be good if he's put in a speed class like Hunter.

And getting a Sorcerer in SD requires reclassing one of your physical units or getting a consolation unit from losing a lot. Point being Sorcerer was put in first as Gharnef's class, then made accessible to the player as a treat just like Lancer.

There are dozens of topic on Echoes bad class balance with ludicrously overpowered Dread Fighters and Bow Knights, and ludicrously underpowered Barons/Generals.

DracoKnights and Paladins in SD are nowhere as busted as Bow Knights and Dread Fighters. 1-5 Range complete with good stat growths+mounted status and good resistance+halving all magic damage in a game filled with magic enemies. Every class in SD has a niche, this isn't the case in Echoes.

Its an extra weakness given to a class that already had any advantages taken away. They also took away the speed ring's 2 movement.

Weapon triangle matters much less then you think and their accuracy bonus is more useful then you'd think. The class has massive bases in skill and speed, as well as great class growths. There's a reason Navarre is high tier in both games.

Generals/Barons in Echoes, they are screwed.

You lost me here.

Maybe, but to be frank, losing my weapon rank isn't exactly desirable. Also, Wolf and Sedgar can work as pretty much anything physical because their growths are just that insane (though they have pretty awful bases).

I don't have much else to say to this, so ehhh.

I've only seen what, 3, maybe 4 such topics at most? That's hardly what I'd call "dozens". Also, in case you missed the memo, and I fear you did, every class having a niche doesn't equal good class balance - knights still have it rough, myrms still have next to nothing going for them, and magic classes still have ass for bases (to put it into perspective, their highest base stat is... Resistance, and every other non-HP stat is 4 or less - that's Donnel-tier bad bases-wise).

Yeah, let's go and forget that before you can get a Dread Fighter or Bow Knight, you still have to go though Mercenary and Myrmidon, or Archer and Sniper respectively, and both of those (particularly the latter set) aren't that impressive.

Try playing Merciless, or for that matter, any of the hardest difficulties in the other recent FE games, then come back to me and try to sell that. And Navarre is high tier in SD? Hah! I haven't seen any tier lists for SD that have anything resembling recency going for them, and the one I can think of is as ancient as the cosmos. And what accuracy bonus have you been going on about? That might be a New Mystery thing. Also, high skill isn't much of an advantage, in SD or in pretty much any game after FE6, and high speed only means so much when you have the offense of a wet noodle, can't dodge reliably, and have garbage defense.

[Emperor Hardin]

31 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You lost me here.

Maybe, but to be frank, losing my weapon rank isn't exactly desirable. Also, Wolf and Sedgar can work as pretty much anything physical because their growths are just that insane (though they have pretty awful bases).

I don't have much else to say to this, so ehhh.

I've only seen what, 3, maybe 4 such topics at most? That's hardly what I'd call "dozens". Also, in case you missed the memo, and I fear you did, every class having a niche doesn't equal good class balance - knights still have it rough, myrms still have next to nothing going for them, and magic classes still have ass for bases (to put it into perspective, their highest base stat is... Resistance, and every other non-HP stat is 4 or less - that's Donnel-tier bad bases-wise).

Yeah, let's go and forget that before you can get a Dread Fighter or Bow Knight, you still have to go though Mercenary and Myrmidon, or Archer and Sniper respectively, and both of those (particularly the latter set) aren't that impressive.

Try playing Merciless, or for that matter, any of the hardest difficulties in the other recent FE games, then come back to me and try to sell that. And Navarre is high tier in SD? Hah! I haven't seen any tier lists for SD that have anything resembling recency going for them, and the one I can think of is as ancient as the cosmos. And what accuracy bonus have you been going on about? That might be a New Mystery thing. Also, high skill isn't much of an advantage, in SD or in pretty much any game after FE6, and high speed only means so much when you have the offense of a wet noodle, can't dodge reliably, and have garbage defense.

I'm saying your problem is Sacred Stones difficulties going easy on the player, not the monster classes being weaker. Stat wise, the monster classes in Sacred Stones are some of the best in the series. Certainly more fearsome then faceless or Stoneborn. Basically the only advantage Faceless and Stoneborn classes have is being in a game with difficulties like Lunatic mode.

Only Ogma has an actual good weapon rank and he's want to learn how to use axes anyhow if goes the Hero route. Castor has D Bows which will Warrior can use anyhow. All those other characters have D rank weapon skills at best.

Knights aren't RD Good, but they are indeed a class with its own niche and purpose in the DS games. Generals are only 1 movement behind the other infantry classes unlike the original, Myrmidons have plenty going for them, and Merric is one of the best characters in the whole game.

Saying Echoes Archer/Sniper is not impressive...yeah thats shows you don't want your talking about. Anyone LPer would laugh at you for that statement.

Echoes Archers/Snipers have 1-5 range, great stats, and good class growths. They also have the same movement range as other infantry units.

In the original, the default archers/snipers had bad skill but the remake not only gave them good skill, they added class growths which increased skill.

Mercenaries are the best combat class, having very high skill and speed, even 1 more speed can double in Echoes and the Mercenary line has the highest speed. Its recommended for almost every character who can access it, contrast Soldier which is recommended for no one.

-1 accuracy and -1 damage is not killing Navarre. Even in the recent tier lists, Navarre is well ranked.

Right in the accuracy section of the calculation page on Serenesforest. 

Class bonus: 5 if user is a Sniper, 10 if user is a Swordmaster.

You clearly have no basis in trying to argue about Shadow Dragon's gameplay if you can't even remember Swordmasters get an accuracy bonus.

Try playing game or reading up on it before you make ridiculous and baseless claims.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I'm saying your problem is Sacred Stones difficulties going easy on the player, not the monster classes being weaker. Stat wise, the monster classes in Sacred Stones are some of the best in the series. Certainly more fearsome then faceless or Stoneborn. Basically the only advantage Faceless and Stoneborn classes have is being in a game with difficulties like Lunatic mode.

Only Ogma has an actual good weapon rank and he's want to learn how to use axes anyhow if goes the Hero route. Castor has D Bows which will Warrior can use anyhow. All those other characters have D rank weapon skills at best.

Knights aren't RD Good, but they are indeed a class with its own niche and purpose in the DS games. Generals are only 1 movement behind the other infantry classes unlike the original, Myrmidons have plenty going for them, and Merric is one of the best characters in the whole game.

Saying Echoes Archer/Sniper is not impressive...yeah thats shows you don't want your talking about. Anyone LPer would laugh at you for that statement.

Echoes Archers/Snipers have 1-5 range, great stats, and good class growths. They also have the same movement range as other infantry units.

In the original, the default archers/snipers had bad skill but the remake not only gave them good skill, they added class growths which increased skill.

Mercenaries are the best combat class, having very high skill and speed, even 1 more speed can double in Echoes and the Mercenary line has the highest speed. Its recommended for almost every character who can access it, contrast Soldier which is recommended for no one.

-1 accuracy and -1 damage is not killing Navarre. Even in the recent tier lists, Navarre is well ranked.

Right in the accuracy section of the calculation page on Serenesforest. 

Class bonus: 5 if user is a Sniper, 10 if user is a Swordmaster.

You clearly have no basis in trying to argue about Shadow Dragon's gameplay if you can't even remember Swordmasters get an accuracy bonus.

Try playing game or reading up on it before you make ridiculous and baseless claims. 

You forgot the part where they get annihilated by Bishops. Also, are you talking about caps or bases? Because like I said earlier, the highest non-HP cap in SS is 30, and bases wise, most of the monsters have bases that are comparable to those of human classes, with HP as the only exception, and even then that's only on a few specific classes.

Fair enough.

"Myrmidons have plenty going for them"??? Oh my, that's rich. Are you SF's court jester now? Because that was a good laugh. 

On what grounds? Because I'm looking at the classes on their own merits, not that of them eventually promoting to an 8 move class with 5 range.

Maybe, but most bows are still pretty inaccurate (most of them have 70 hit or less, with the exceptions being Iron Bow, Luna, Parthia, Killer Bow, Blessed Bow, Radiant Bow, Mila's Bow, and Python's Bow, the last two requiring amiibo and DLC, respectively). So I'm still going to be seeing my archers miss more than most other units.

No argument there.

I say again... what recent tier lists are you droning on about??? Because I only remember one tier list for SD, and it's ancient, not to mention for H5.

I was looking on SF, but the Calculation page slipped my mind. And I can't play a game that I washed my hands of long ago, so I'd appreciate if you cut me some slack.

[NekoKnight]

On 09/05/2017 at 5:28 PM, Kalken said:

Eh, while I do not disagree that Fates was mishandled I don't see a basis to claiming that it was ever supposed to be "morally gray" in that both sides had legitimate backgrounds to engage in hostilities. The pre-release info painted Hoshido as peace-loving with Nohr being glory-seeking conquerors. The choice between factions was framed as Corrin either siding with his birth family who are the royalty of the peace-lovers (Blood) or the family he was raised in who are the royalty of the conquerors (Loyalty). It looked like we were getting a story where you desert the home and family you know to side with your forgotten blood and fight off the aggressors.

I think by necessity, Nohr has to the country in the wrong and Hoshido in the right. If Nohr was good, then there wouldn't be a reason to side with Hoshido. The moral greyness described then is Corrin's choice. Does he stick with the family who raised and loved him, but represent an aggressor nation, or side with the virtual strangers who are his blood-kin and represent the innocent nation?

On 09/05/2017 at 5:28 PM, Kalken said:

Just having the question of "Do you side with your family and home even when you know they're committing atrocities on a land like Hoshido" makes for interesting enough drama. They botch it from trying to frame Corrin as a paragon of virtue ala Marth or Seliph or Ike no matter what happens in Conquest.

Birthright hit the right point in that Corrin does something selfless and fights the people he loves in the name of justice. Hoshido is boring and under-developed but it feels consistent.

Conquest is where they really screwed the pooch by making Corrin somehow righteous despite supporting such cartoonishly evil people. The promotional material suggested internal reform but considering that that really only happens at the end of the game, it all falls flat.

A popular wish is that Conquest would be about a pragmatic need for resources instead of "We're invading because we're evil". This would satisfy the need for Nohr to be in the wrong but not paint them as horrible people.

[Emperor Hardin]

On 9/6/2017 at 4:31 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You forgot the part where they get annihilated by Bishops. Also, are you talking about caps or bases? Because like I said earlier, the highest non-HP cap in SS is 30, and bases wise, most of the monsters have bases that are comparable to those of human classes, with HP as the only exception, and even then that's only on a few specific classes.

Fair enough.

"Myrmidons have plenty going for them"??? Oh my, that's rich. Are you SF's court jester now? Because that was a good laugh. 

On what grounds? Because I'm looking at the classes on their own merits, not that of them eventually promoting to an 8 move class with 5 range.

Maybe, but most bows are still pretty inaccurate (most of them have 70 hit or less, with the exceptions being Iron Bow, Luna, Parthia, Killer Bow, Blessed Bow, Radiant Bow, Mila's Bow, and Python's Bow, the last two requiring amiibo and DLC, respectively). So I'm still going to be seeing my archers miss more than most other units.

No argument there.

I say again... what recent tier lists are you droning on about??? Because I only remember one tier list for SD, and it's ancient, not to mention for H5.

I was looking on SF, but the Calculation page slipped my mind. And I can't play a game that I washed my hands of long ago, so I'd appreciate if you cut me some slack.

Faceless have lower strength caps then Nohrian loldiers, let alone the regular classes. By contrast, the Sacred Stones monster have better bases and very powerful caps. Look at Cyclops. They can also use more powerful weapons then just fists and stone. Golem attacks can't critical, while Shadowshot armed mogalls and Gorgons can.

You are such a kidder. You admit to barely even remembering Shadow Dragon, yet think you know more then people who've played it for years. Oh yeah, that class that gives the highest speed and skill bases out of any other in the game is totally bad.

And its totally not like Swordmaster starts with a base C rank in Swords, thus being perfect for characters who need a higher sword rank to use powerful swords.

Yeah, no such thing as units like Cain who have good sword ranks and would benefit greatly from the increased speed/HP Bases and growths of the Myrmidon, as well as the high base weapon ranks of Swordmaster.

Navarre joins with the skill to use the Killing edge, in a chapter filled to the brim with axe users and a higher base speed then anyone but Julian, but he’s totally useless just because you said so.

There are anti monster weapons in Fates too and slayer exists as a Falcoknight skill in Echoes.

Snipers have 1-5 range and can keep up with Heroes, I fail to see how they're average as you claim.

Lets count growths

Combining class growths with personal growth, Leon has 60 skill growth, while Forsyth has 35 skill growth....yeah they aren’t missing anytime soon.

You admitted earlier you haven't even playing Echoes, so don't make claims like this.

One of the best skills is from a bow. Hunter’s volleys which gives critical +10 and 2 consecutive hits, given this is from the killer bow which has 80 percent accuracy and a critical bonus of 20, this is a highly accurate +30 critical with a brave effect.

Echoes added several long range bows like the Longbow, giving you more then 5 range allowing you to break the post game boss who is stationary!

Then there’s the Radiant Bow which deals magic damage, but unlike the Levin Sword, adds Attack to the damage dealt. Bows are so useless in Echoes, said no one ever.

You not knowing of the Swordmaster accuracy bonus is more proof you have no idea what you're talking about and shouldn't be making brazen claims about the game.

There's plenty of Tier lists for both DS games I can link. All give Navarre a good rank.

2 second google search

Your wildly rash and ignorant accusations against those who've played Shadow Dragon, despite you yourself having little knowledge of it, makes it hard to cut slack for you. 

Edited September 8, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Faceless have lower strength caps then Nohrian loldiers, let alone the regular classes. By contrast, the Sacred Stones monster have better bases and very powerful caps. Look at Cyclops. They can also use more powerful weapons then just fists and stone. Golem attacks can't critical, while Shadowshot armed mogalls and Gorgons can.

The caps would be somethig worth mentioning if you frequently saw capped monsters, which you don't. Also, for your information, the only axes that equal or surpass the Gauntlet (13 Mt) or Massive Rock (15 Mt) in power are the Battle Axe, Tomahawk (both 13 Mt), Silver Axe (15 Mt; Cyclopes don't use this) and the Devil Axe (18 Mt; also drearily inaccurate, and has a backfire chance). WRT Shadowshot, the crit would only really be a problem for units with really bad luck, ergo, the likes of Dozla, Knoll, and Moulder. That being said, Gorgons are one of the very few SS monsters that I see as a legit threat, albeit for a different reason entirely, that being the ability to petrify your units.

5 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You not knowing of the Swordmaster accuracy bonus is more proof you have no idea what you're talking about and shouldn't be making brazen claims about the game.

Look who's talking, your points tend to be pretty brazen themselves. Anyways, we're talking about a class that tends to have no problems hitting ever because they use the most accurate weapon type, so that accuracy boost is superfluous overkill.

5 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

There are anti monster weapons in Fates too and slayer exists as a Falcoknight skill in Echoes.

True. However, the anti-monster weapons in Fates drop your defenses (which, given Fates' reputation as Low HP Emblem, isn't exactly desirable), in addition to being pretty weak, particularly the Kris Knife, which, even against the enemies it's good against, is weaker than a Silver Dagger.

5 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You are such a kidder. You admit to barely even remembering Shadow Dragon, yet think you know more then people who've played it for years. Oh yeah, that class that gives the highest speed and skill bases out of any other in the game is totally bad.

I did mention the high speed base, which you'd have seen if you did your homework. However, I don't see high skill as much of a selling point, especially since we're talking about SD, which nerfed evade into the ground (and for that matter, SD also nerfed skill, as if it wasn't already one of the most useless stats to invest in). Either way, it doesn't help that swords, as usual, got the short end of the stick, weapons-wise (Wyrmslayers are nice and all, but when it comes to effective weapons, a forged Ridersbane or Wing Spear wrecks all).

5 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Snipers have 1-5 range and can keep up with Heroes, I fail to see how they're average as you claim.

Lets count growths

Combining class growths with personal growth, Leon has 60 skill growth, while Forsyth has 35 skill growth....yeah they aren’t missing anytime soon.

You admitted earlier you haven't even playing Echoes, so don't make claims like this.

One of the best skills is from a bow. Hunter’s volleys which gives critical +10 and 2 consecutive hits, given this is from the killer bow which has 80 percent accuracy and a critical bonus of 20, this is a highly accurate +30 critical with a brave effect.

Echoes added several long range bows like the Longbow, giving you more then 5 range allowing you to break the post game boss who is stationary!

Then there’s the Radiant Bow which deals magic damage, but unlike the Levin Sword, adds Attack to the damage dealt. Bows are so useless in Echoes, said no one ever.

I never said bows were useless. However, given that this is a remake of Gaiden, which has had a lot of complaints levied against it for having terrain with insane evade bonuses, that we're talking about, I'm kinda justified in being concerned about Archer hit rates. And I do know all about Hunter's Volley, thank you very much; I DO prowl the Echoes board, after all.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emperor Hardin]

20 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The caps would be somethig worth mentioning if you frequently saw capped monsters, which you don't. Also, for your information, the only axes that equal or surpass the Gauntlet (13 Mt) or Massive Rock (15 Mt) in power are the Battle Axe, Tomahawk (both 13 Mt), Silver Axe (15 Mt; Cyclopes don't use this) and the Devil Axe (18 Mt; also drearily inaccurate, and has a backfire chance). WRT Shadowshot, the crit would only really be a problem for units with really bad luck, ergo, the likes of Dozla, Knoll, and Moulder. That being said, Gorgons are one of the very few SS monsters that I see as a legit threat, albeit for a different reason entirely, that being the ability to petrify your units.

Look who's talking, your points tend to be pretty brazen themselves. Anyways, we're talking about a class that tends to have no problems hitting ever because they use the most accurate weapon type, so that accuracy boost is superfluous overkill.

True. However, the anti-monster weapons in Fates drop your defenses (which, given Fates' reputation as Low HP Emblem, isn't exactly desirable), in addition to being pretty weak, particularly the Kris Knife, which, even against the enemies it's good against, is weaker than a Silver Dagger.

I did mention the high speed base, which you'd have seen if you did your homework. However, I don't see high skill as much of a selling point, especially since we're talking about SD, which nerfed evade into the ground (and for that matter, SD also nerfed skill, as if it wasn't already one of the most useless stats to invest in). Either way, it doesn't help that swords, as usual, got the short end of the stick, weapons-wise (Wyrmslayers are nice and all, but when it comes to effective weapons, a forged Ridersbane or Wing Spear wrecks all).

I never said bows were useless. However, given that this is a remake of Gaiden, which has had a lot of complaints levied against it for having terrain with insane evade bonuses, that we're talking about, I'm kinda justified in being concerned about Archer hit rates. And I do know all about Hunter's Volley, thank you very much; I DO prowl the Echoes board, after all.

Thats the whole point. Sacred Stones Monsters are much more intimidating as classes. Fates monsters have the advantage of being in a game with more difficulty levels, allowing them to reach their caps, but are overall weaker as classes. None of them can even use magic.

Compared to Silver Axe, Gauntlet has 3 less attack and 20 more hit. Yeah, not really better. They’re pretty much on par with Sacred Stones monster weapons. Meanwhile Sacred Stones monsters can use human weapons which as overall better in every game with monsters.

And those weapons also allow you to recover HP every turn. They allow you to turn

I’ve made claims about games I’ve actually played, you make claims about games you have not played or barely remember.

You mentioned high speed base and foolishly acted like it did nothing. And if you did your homework you’d know about the stuff like the Swordmaster’s accuracy bonus. Your argument that the treatment of Swordmaster is worse then that of Baron in Echoes is hilariously bad.

"This class with the highest base speed and skill in the game along with a base C-rank in swords and an accuracy was totally treated worse then that class that is three movement behind other infantry and in a game filled with enemies its weak to." Just who do you expect to believe that slop? Unless you're a comedian, in which I say bravo.

If you’d actually remembered Shadow Dragon, you’d know there are entire chapters filled with enemies that use terrain to make them hard to hit. Also tanking being useful hardly means evade was nerfed, some of the hardest bosses in the DS games using dodging extensively.

And all the enemies have 0 luck making them particularly vulnerable to criticals gotten from a high skill stat..."Swordmasters are so useless", said no one ever who remembered Shadow Dragon.

And Lances are bad in Echoes as I've explained. Also Shadow Dragon is filled to the brim with Manakete enemies for wyrmslayers.

Terrain like Gravestones, of which the enemy never uses by default and is easily lured off. And the archer characters as well as the class growths mean they aren't going to be missing a lot.

Prowling the Echoes board once in a while is not the same as playing the game. Some of the most OP weapons are all from bows and there's even a bow that does magic damage with the wielder's attack taken into account. Clearly bows are unbalanced on a level unlike any of Shadow Dragon's weapon types.

You are not justified just as you weren't justified in claiming there weren't that many magic enemies. You haven't played the game, you can't make these claims.

I've actually played all these games, you admit to not playing Echoes and barely remembering Shadow Dragon, so your claims are brazen and wild, mine are calculated and proven. I've repeatedly used direct and accurate info from the games with relevant links disproving your wild guesses that magic enemies are rare in Gaiden, Swordmasters don't get an accuracy bonus, Navarre is low tier, ETC.

Short version, you really do not know what you're talking about and are only embarrassing yourself further at this point.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Emperor Hardin