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I don't get why there's a Lord tier.  Just because you have to bring them doesn't mean you have to use them.  In some games, it's easier to drag around an underleveled lordling than actually use them (Roy, Eliwood in his mode, FE11!Marth).

Edited by Refa

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4 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Plus his promo item is better used on 2-3 other units. Gilliam gets a horse and can use Javalins and Hand Axes.

I'm pretty sure Franz can make better use of the first KC, not to mention he is also easier to train than Gilliam. You do get another KC but well...  Forde, Kyle

Edited by SpaceSamurai

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On 18 septembre 2017 at 3:01 PM, Sturm said:

Thanks mate! Always good to meet another Prog Rock enthusiast! :awesome: You should have a listen to Van der Graaf Generator if you haven't heard them, they're one of my favourites and a bit less well known, if you like KC you'll probably like them. H to He, Who Am the Only One, Still Life and Pawn Hearts are all great albums.

I have actually seen them live a few years ago (shortly after the release of their Trisector album. Possibly my absolute favourite band. I don't think they ever made a bad album (well, maybe ALT, but even that was more listenable than I thought it would be.) Peter Hammill's voice just grabs me by the balls every time I hear it.

I'll suggest you listen to Harmonium, a Quebec prog rock band that was huge around here back in the 70s. They started as a folk band, evolved to prog-folk, and then to full-blown progressive rock. Due to their lead singer/guitarist having a mental breakdown, they only released 3 albums, one of which is my namesake on these boards. You should try either their second album (Si on avait besoin d'une cinquième saison), or their third (L'Heptade), both amazing and very melodic concept albums. Their debut is good too, but it has little to do with prog.

Edited by Heptade

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So I was bored and spent the 2 hours to see what doing a Ephriam draft run with joshua actually looked like.

Joshua's base HP is actually kind of high, and the +2 def giving him the c10 hero crest instead of garcia actually gave him survivabilty- I actually used him as the forward unit crossing into the ghost ship at 10/1 and he finished without even losing half of his health. Even before the promtion I was able to throw him over the Fort Rigqald C9 enemy bridge at only level 8. enemy attention was split by the cav squad but about 6-7 attacked him here

However on the bad side- utterly useless for bosskills- C6- even with optimal trading of the village armorslayer from vanessa, he shouldn't kill the boss before somebody else

C7- as if you are going to use vanessa's turns getting him over the mountain>< He had no problem grabbing exp from the bottom right though since I wasn't using it for cavs/gilliam/garcia.

C8- Can't really get through armor knight room on his own, so doesn't even have a shot at the boss.

C9- he 2 rounds the boss even with armorslayer and won't come near getting to him  first since also obliged to transport epriahm.

C10- takes 3 turns with boss, and that was with a killing edge crit. Rubbish compared to Seth or Duessel. However at this point he was actually able to move into unpromoted enemies, such as the horde surronding the boss which is a cute upside, .

What's worse is that even though I used him as the lead unit on ghost ship- unpromoted Garcia (left on the starting boat) still outperformed him due to 1-2 range helping out with the mogalls and gargolyes way more (never mind ephriam,the mounted units, and duessel, all loaded with javelins)  Chatper 12 was even worse (it has high amounts of ranged attackers) - I think he was cabable of 1 rounding every enemy other than the boss here, but between his lower movement and being able to be delayed for multible turns by enemy's poking at him, he was just awful compared. Chapter 13 is too short for most foot units to matter- Chapter 14, his increased crit was nice, but as we all know, it's not like the c6 armorslayer has that many uses if any at all by this chapter and even then the large travel distance causes the problems as C9 even though joshua's bulk issues are over at this point.. 

So in conclusion- Joshua, if used, can become surprisingly durable, and can help rout normal enemies, but even with criticals, really high HP generals and things like Ogre bosses can't realistically be 1 rounded by him (maybe double crits, but that's asking too much). In "defeat boss maps" he can sometimes do enough for the boss to die enemy phase, thus not losing turns over stronger bosskillers, but it's obviously unacceptable on seize maps. His main crippling flaw is the fact that A: you have near-unlimited money. B: Hand axes/javelins are buyable from the map screen after chapter 3. This pretty much automatically makes him worse than ross/gilliam in their respective draft settings and imo Dozla's full charather ltc  contribution in C13 (mostly just using his waterwalk to physically block archer for the flier rescue drop)+ minor bodyblocking and potentially combat in C14+C15) Is actually bigger than the sum of what Joshua does in the chapters C6-9 just to fill the deployment limit.  

Joshua, doesn't require much investment, but doesn't pay of much either- it also makes experience kind of low for the knight crest users (franz+whoever) who will probbably promote later than usual. The small(IE not costing turns or consumable)amount of favoritism to give him his potential leads to interesting results in a draft run (mostly because his 10/1 bulk  surpassed 10/1 franz and 10/1 forde ) but the sword lock is overwhelming- At least draft gillam and draft ross's potential is either unique (1 of 3 units one of which is  ephriam who is being rescue carried the other  Seth who can 1 round cavs on C9 or just solid on at least the low move chapters like 11 due to 1-2 hand/axe javelin ability. He was just an offensive unit in his first 3 maps, and then a dual offense/bulky unit around Fort Wigwald which lasts until the route merge, which would be good, if not for Garcia and even Gilliam doing it better-

C16 onwards is bad for him, but that's true of most units. 

I'm convinced that he's easily the worst unit in C tier.  I think that while what he can combat and bulkwise do is already replicable by standard units and no chapter has a unique contribution, it at least exists and applies to a fairly broad range of chapters. He's still better than the current D tier (Knoll might be debatable)

Also Natasha needs to drop to D- even if you didn't use eph (arthur), eir(saleh) or a level up rigged moulder, she couldn't possibly do the c19 warp with her magic  stat, so even in a draft the people she is actually competing with /replacing are the rescue stave users supporting the main warp+ some miscellanous physic (only on rout levels where non main people fight) and barrier uses on siege tome levels. 

Edited by Reality

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On 9/22/2017 at 8:19 AM, Heptade said:

I have actually seen them live a few years ago (shortly after the release of their Trisector album. Possibly my absolute favourite band. I don't think they ever made a bad album (well, maybe ALT, but even that was more listenable than I thought it would be.) Peter Hammill's voice just grabs me by the balls every time I hear it.

I'll suggest you listen to Harmonium, a Quebec prog rock band that was huge around here back in the 70s. They started as a folk band, evolved to prog-folk, and then to full-blown progressive rock. Due to their lead singer/guitarist having a mental breakdown, they only released 3 albums, one of which is my namesake on these boards. You should try either their second album (Si on avait besoin d'une cinquième saison), or their third (L'Heptade), both amazing and very melodic concept albums. Their debut is good too, but it has little to do with prog.

Alas, this isn't the metal topic.  As your avatar is Knoll, perhaps you can say something about the tier list?

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On 9/22/2017 at 0:12 AM, SpaceSamurai said:

I'm pretty sure Franz can make better use of the first KC, not to mention he is also easier to train than Gilliam. You do get another KC but well...  Forde, Kyle

That's why I asked about the context and criteria of a playthrough. If Franz is not in play, Gilliam is easily the best candidate for the KC.

16 hours ago, Reality said:

Stuff about Joshua

This is exactly why Joshua is actually a terrible unit in this game. He gets super over-rated for his character design and the fact that people love Swordmasters.

In a draft, Gilliam is worthy a 3rd round pick. Joshua is a late 5th round pick at best, and that is only if you absolutely need some early game help. I consider Joshua as a bottom 4 unit in drafts.

16 hours ago, Reality said:

Also Natasha needs to drop to D- even if you didn't use eph (arthur), eir(saleh) or a level up rigged moulder, she couldn't possibly do the c19 warp with her magic  stat, so even in a draft the people she is actually competing with /replacing are the rescue stave users supporting the main warp+ some miscellanous physic (only on rout levels where non main people fight) and barrier uses on siege tome levels. 

Natasha has either a 60% or 65% MAG growth, which is basically 100% in drafts. Add in the 2 (possibly 3) Energy Rings, she definitely has enough Magic to do the warp. Not enough for the 1 turn clear because of her MAG cap, but she can do a 2 turn clear.

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21 hours ago, eclipse said:

Alas, this isn't the metal topic.  As your avatar is Knoll, perhaps you can say something about the tier list?

Indeed, indeed. I tend to get passionate when talking about progressive rock...

Knoll should be higher, or, at the very least, would deserve to be higher if the game was more difficult. He deals decent enough damage and is very accurate, and doubles most enemies when sticking with Flux, but his Def is pathetic and his even more pathetic Luck means that he'll have a hard time avoiding enemy attacks. His vulnerability to critical hits can be covered by the Hoplon Guard (he's really the only character who needs it). All in all, his combat is not bad, and Knoll is very usable as a fighting unit, but I'll admit he's below-average in this regard compared to Sacred Stones' other characters. Still, I feel like the glass cannon mages are under appreciated around here (Orochi's been very useful to me in Fates), but that's besides the point.

What makes him shine is the Summoner's ability. The summoned phantoms will always be targeted by the enemies if they are in their attacking range. Furthermore, Knoll's phantoms have pretty good avoid, so the enemy is likely to waste many units' move in bringing it down. That is the most reliable way to control the enemy troops' movement in the game (barring a certain glitch, but, you know, glitches are not exactly legitimate...). If this was a harder FE, this ability might be considered essential. Here it is not so, but still, it saved my life a few times.

This is why I think Knoll is underrated.

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Gilliam should go up and I agree Joshua should probably go to the bottom of C. I have Gilliam in a draft at the moment (which I should really get back to but that's besides the point) I picked him in my second double pick and I definitely think it was worth picking him there, possibly even higher priority would not be amiss, he was probably the MVP for chapters 8,9 and 10. To elaborate Gilliam can contribute in several maps before Joshua even joins:

  • In Chapter 2 he can kill the reinforcements while someone else takes care of the rest of the Bandits.
  • In Chapter 3 he can help to break walls and clear the way for Eirka to get to the Throne.
  • In Chapter 4 he can kill the reinforcements that spawn near the start or go south towards Lute's Village.
  • In Chapters 5, 6 and 7 he doesn't really do anything other than just getting experience which is the same as what Joshua is doing at that point.
  • Chapter 8 he starts outperforming Joshua again though due to being able to promote he can carry Eirika to the Throne as well as being able to kill the Knights without much fear.

That just sort of continues in the same vein I'd say especially as Gilliam has 2 range. His main problem is his speed but he actually doesn't need to be able to double a lot in the early game, only really in chapter 4 he might need one speed proc to double the Revenants, later on he should be fast enough to double Knights and he could potentially OHKO faster enemies with Silver Lance/Horseslayer as others have mentioned and obviously he's leagues ahead of Joshua in terms of taking hits even when carrying Eirika or whoever.

Natasha's Magic growth is good but how many levels is she realistically going to get if playing fast, I wouldn't be surprised if she can't even reach promotion before very late game. Having said that you probably don't need much Magic to Warp a flier to be able to drop the Lord near the Gate on Turn 1 in chapter 19 so she probably can still do it. I think D is  too low because she is still a Warper/Rescuer which is more than some can say, I'd put her somewhere in mid to low C I think.

@Heptade I'll check out Harmonium thanks for the recommendation, I've heard of them but my French is how do you say 'ne tres bien pas'? so I never listened to them.

Edited by Sturm

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3 hours ago, Heptade said:

Indeed, indeed. I tend to get passionate when talking about progressive rock...

Knoll should be higher, or, at the very least, would deserve to be higher if the game was more difficult. He deals decent enough damage and is very accurate, and doubles most enemies when sticking with Flux, but his Def is pathetic and his even more pathetic Luck means that he'll have a hard time avoiding enemy attacks. His vulnerability to critical hits can be covered by the Hoplon Guard (he's really the only character who needs it). All in all, his combat is not bad, and Knoll is very usable as a fighting unit, but I'll admit he's below-average in this regard compared to Sacred Stones' other characters. Still, I feel like the glass cannon mages are under appreciated around here (Orochi's been very useful to me in Fates), but that's besides the point.

What makes him shine is the Summoner's ability. The summoned phantoms will always be targeted by the enemies if they are in their attacking range. Furthermore, Knoll's phantoms have pretty good avoid, so the enemy is likely to waste many units' move in bringing it down. That is the most reliable way to control the enemy troops' movement in the game (barring a certain glitch, but, you know, glitches are not exactly legitimate...). If this was a harder FE, this ability might be considered essential. Here it is not so, but still, it saved my life a few times.

This is why I think Knoll is underrated.

Ooh, THIS is something I can talk about~!

First, where exactly would you put Knoll?

Second, phantom utility is pretty cool, but it's for really weird reasons.  I don't know how much phantom rescue/suicide will factor in, but I think it's a hilarious strategy.  If anything, they're great distractions for the Chapter 16 siege tomes!

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6 hours ago, Heptade said:

This is why I think Knoll is underrated.

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

Ooh, THIS is something I can talk about~!

First, where exactly would you put Knoll?

Second, phantom utility is pretty cool, but it's for really weird reasons.  I don't know how much phantom rescue/suicide will factor in, but I think it's a hilarious strategy.  If anything, they're great distractions for the Chapter 16 siege tomes!

Knoll has bad stats, and being able to create expendable siege bait really doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

The only time you would even need or want that is if you happen to have a unit that would be OHKOed by a siege tome hit.

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5 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

Knoll has bad stats, and being able to create expendable siege bait really doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

The only time you would even need or want that is if you happen to have a unit that would be OHKOed by a siege tome hit.

I'll assume that we're not stalling out the siege tome hits.

The options are either to warp someone to the boss, and pray that EP works, or to bum-rush past the trigger point.  The former is especially risky, given that whoever offs the boss has to deal with a bunch of promoted units on top of siege tomes.  The latter is less headache-inducing, but still benefits from distracting the tome users.  It's one less hit that needs to be gambled on, and it's not like Knoll wants to be front and center anyway.

I'm not sure how much phantom drops affects things once Knoll shows up.

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16 hours ago, Sturm said:
  • In Chapter 2 he can kill the reinforcements while someone else takes care of the rest of the Bandits.
  • In Chapter 3 he can help to break walls and clear the way for Eirka to get to the Throne.
  • In Chapter 4 he can kill the reinforcements that spawn near the start or go south towards Lute's Village.
  • In Chapters 5, 6 and 7 he doesn't really do anything other than just getting experience which is the same as what Joshua is doing at that point.
  • Chapter 8 he starts outperforming Joshua again though due to being able to promote he can carry Eirika to the Throne as well as being able to kill the Knights without much fear.

Chapter 2: you mean the bandits on the mountain? How can he even hit them?

Chapter 4: Agreed.

Chapter 5,6,7: And Joshua is better in those chapters because he has better mov and better offense.

Chapter 8: Why would you even promote him? Gilliam is a good candidate for the KC, yes, but Franz is an even better candidate for that item. I really don't see any reason to promote him instead of Franz.

On 24/9/2017 at 5:37 AM, Hawk King said:

If Franz is not in play, Gilliam is easily the best candidate for the KC.

An early-promoted Kyle or Forde doesn't seem that bad tbh.

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41 minutes ago, SpaceSamurai said:

An early-promoted Kyle or Forde doesn't seem that bad tbh.

Having a promoted Gilliam for Chapter 8 is a huge improvement and makes an immediate impact.

Kyle or Forde won't be able to promote until Chapter 10 at the earliest so the KC will be just sitting in your inventory for two Chapters that you would greatly benefit from having a promoted Gilliam.

On Eirika's route, at that point in the game, a promotion doesn't make much of a difference at all for Kyle and Forde. You can afford to wait until you get the Master Seal from Chapter 15. Gilliam having 2 extra movement and the boosted stats makes him significantly better.

On Ephraim's route, you get another KC when you get Duessel so promoting Gilliam is clearly the best thing to do.

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18 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Having a promoted Gilliam for Chapter 8 is a huge improvement and makes an immediate impact.

Like what? Seth himself can handle everything without any help from Gilliam. He does one-round the Knights with Steel axe, but Garcia can also do that and he doesn't need any promotional item. I doubt a promoted Gilliam will save any turn in this chapter.

18 hours ago, Hawk King said:

On Eirika's route, at that point in the game, a promotion doesn't make much of a difference at all for Kyle and Forde.

Then how does the promotion makes Gilliam better? Don't forget that Kyle and Forde have better mov and their stats are also better than Gilliam's.

18 hours ago, Hawk King said:

On Ephraim's route, you get another KC when you get Duessel so promoting Gilliam is clearly the best thing to do.

Agreed. But since you also get Duessel, who is obviously a better Great Knight, promoting Gilliam is really questionable.

Edited by SpaceSamurai

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5 minutes ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Like what? Seth himself can handle everything without any help from Gilliam. He does one-round the Knights with Steel axe, but Garcia can also do that and he doesn't need any promotional item. I doubt a promoted Gilliam will save you any turn in this chapter.

The Elysian Whip is really far away. There is a 50 HP wall and a door we need to go through on the way to it. And someone needs to do the bosskilling as well. Promoted Gilliam will save a turn getting it.

7 minutes ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Then how does the promotion makes Gilliam better? Don't forget that Kyle and Forde have better mov and their stats are also better than Gilliam. 

Gilliam gains 2 movement and his stat gains make a larger difference for him considering how low his base Spd and growth is. The difference from 7 to 8 movement doesn't actually make any difference for them. Going from 4 to 6 movement takes Gilliam from borderline useless to being good.

12 minutes ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Agreed. But since you also get Duessel, who is obviously a better Great Knight, promoting Gilliam is really questionable.

General Horace made a good argument for Gilliam on this. They are essentially the same unit, but Gilliam has better availability. Besides, we literally lose nothing by promoting Gilliam. Even if Duessel sends him to the bench for the rest of the game, it is still in our best interest to promote and use Gilliam up until then. Kyle or Forde can take the more appropriate 2nd KC which actually comes when they are ready to promote.

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On 9/24/2017 at 0:16 PM, Heptade said:

Indeed, indeed. I tend to get passionate when talking about progressive rock...

Knoll should be higher, or, at the very least, would deserve to be higher if the game was more difficult. He deals decent enough damage and is very accurate, and doubles most enemies when sticking with Flux, but his Def is pathetic and his even more pathetic Luck means that he'll have a hard time avoiding enemy attacks. His vulnerability to critical hits can be covered by the Hoplon Guard (he's really the only character who needs it). All in all, his combat is not bad, and Knoll is very usable as a fighting unit, but I'll admit he's below-average in this regard compared to Sacred Stones' other characters. Still, I feel like the glass cannon mages are under appreciated around here (Orochi's been very useful to me in Fates), but that's besides the point.

What makes him shine is the Summoner's ability. The summoned phantoms will always be targeted by the enemies if they are in their attacking range. Furthermore, Knoll's phantoms have pretty good avoid, so the enemy is likely to waste many units' move in bringing it down. That is the most reliable way to control the enemy troops' movement in the game (barring a certain glitch, but, you know, glitches are not exactly legitimate...). If this was a harder FE, this ability might be considered essential. Here it is not so, but still, it saved my life a few times.

This is why I think Knoll is underrated.

Just wanted to quote this so 2 of these exist on this planet.

Can't agree more. Not gonna argue for "if the game was more difficult" since that is impossible without modding the game;

But if someone chooses to go for a freaking squishy patrol formation, a summoner can keep a lot of stuff alive easily. 2 summoners means double little dudes. double little dudes means double the fun. double the fun means double the value for your money. double the value for your money means you're making good business. making good business means you're getting money. getting money = being rich.

 

If you promote both Knoll and Ewan to Summoner, you become rich in real life. Fact. I did the math.

Edited by ore no stando da

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On 24/09/2017 at 5:00 PM, eclipse said:

Ooh, THIS is something I can talk about~!

First, where exactly would you put Knoll?

Second, phantom utility is pretty cool, but it's for really weird reasons.  I don't know how much phantom rescue/suicide will factor in, but I think it's a hilarious strategy.  If anything, they're great distractions for the Chapter 16 siege tomes!

At the very least C-tier. Maybe even B (but maybe I'm letting my personal bias blind me). I'm not too good with tier lists, especially not in Sacred Stones, where everyone has potential, and the tier list seems to mostly evaluate how easy they are to make full use of. I'll admit that Knoll isn't the easiest guy to use, but he does have a very useful niche where his only competitor is much more underleveled, and not even as good as him if they both go this path, so that should be taken into account.

@SturmIf understanding the lyrics is important to you, definitely go for their second album. Simple concept about the 4 seasons plus a fifth they imagined. Each of the first four tracks represents a season, with lyrics mostly abstract, conjuring images that complement the feel of the music (though the Autumn song has some double-entendre referring to Quebec's political situation at the time). The fifth season is represented by a 20-minute instumental track, so no worries there. Their third album is definitely more lyrics-heavy, though, but I'd probably love it even if I didn't understand a word. I listen to a lot of Italian prog and, while I can understand a bit of written Italian (since it resembles French a little bit), I lack the proficiency to process the lyrics as I hear them; I just try to think of the vocals as another instrument.

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1 hour ago, Heptade said:

At the very least C-tier. Maybe even B (but maybe I'm letting my personal bias blind me). I'm not too good with tier lists, especially not in Sacred Stones, where everyone has potential, and the tier list seems to mostly evaluate how easy they are to make full use of. I'll admit that Knoll isn't the easiest guy to use, but he does have a very useful niche where his only competitor is much more underleveled, and not even as good as him if they both go this path, so that should be taken into account.

Tier lists assume zero grinding and fast clears with an emphasis on lower turns.

Knoll is bad in these circumstances. He has to insta-promote, and has very few Chapters to do anything. Literally his only contributions are making phantoms for Siege tome bait and possibly killing an egg or two.

If grinding to Level 20/20 was allowed, every unit would be A-tier and up.

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On 22/09/2017 at 5:12 AM, SpaceSamurai said:

I'm pretty sure Franz can make better use of the first KC, not to mention he is also easier to train than Gilliam. You do get another KC but well...  Forde, Kyle

I agree Franz is better but I'm not saying Gilliam should be above Franz just that he should be higher, so I don't really see your point here.

On 25/09/2017 at 0:14 PM, SpaceSamurai said:

Chapter 2: you mean the bandits on the mountain? How can he even hit them?

You don't try to kill them while they're still on the mountain...

On 25/09/2017 at 0:14 PM, SpaceSamurai said:

Chapter 5,6,7: And Joshua is better in those chapters because he has better mov and better offense

I don't really agree with this all those maps are boss kill maps and most enemies are in between you and the boss so Gilliam should still have time to get to see enough combat despite his one less move. The bigger issue I have is with saying that Joshua has better offence, the only enemies I can see Joshua having the advantage against is Mages and Archers who he can ORKO while Gilliam can't, most other enemies I expect they both 2RKO so they are even, Joshua does have Killing Edge access so he probably wins this slightly. However Gilliam has a huge advantage in that he can use Javelins to kill multiple Archers/ Mages over two turns and can still use his Player Phase to heal if needed, Joshua doesn't have this he can only kill one enemy with 2 range per turn and if he needs to spend his turn to heal then he can't kill any.

On 25/09/2017 at 0:14 PM, SpaceSamurai said:

Chapter 8: Why would you even promote him? Gilliam is a good candidate for the KC, yes, but Franz is an even better candidate for that item. I really don't see any reason to promote him instead of Franz.

Again I agree Franz is a better KC candidate but Gilliam is still a good candidate for it, just because Franz is one of the best units doesn't mean you have to use him, I don't think that's the purpose of the tier list at least not to my mind.

On 25/09/2017 at 2:35 PM, SpaceSamurai said:

Like what? Seth himself can handle everything without any help from Gilliam. He does one-round the Knights with Steel axe, but Garcia can also do that and he doesn't need any promotional item. I doubt a promoted Gilliam will save any turn in this chapter.

 I mean Seth can handle everything without any help from anyone not just Gilliam.

On 25/09/2017 at 2:35 PM, SpaceSamurai said:

Then how does the promotion makes Gilliam better? Don't forget that Kyle and Forde have better mov and their stats are also better than Gilliam's.

Kyle and Forde will have better stats in the long run but they aren't really in a position to promote even at the end of Chapter 8 Gilliam  probably has the advantage in stats for a while and as Hawk King said Gilliam going from 4-6 move is more useful than a level 10/1 Forde/Kyle would be at that point. I would rather have a level 10/1 Gilliam than 10/1 Forde/Kyle and let them promote a bit later on after they get more levels personally.

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ok, so I've read most of the posts here, and I agree with most of what's said.  As much as I want to imput my thoughts, I'd look like an idiot and am better sticking to asking the questions and not answering. So, If I may ask, why is Marisa above Amelia in the Bottom teir?  Doesn't she have 1-2 range ability with  javelins at base? And what of the speed wings that you can get from her on eirika's route?  Are those more valuable than Marisa's usability as a whole?  

I like how the list is now, and personally I believe that Amelia is the worst unit in the game. But I want to know if my belief still holds up when 1-2 range is such an important factor in GBA FE and FE as a whole.

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On 30/09/2017 at 6:45 PM, Lord Tullus said:

ok, so I've read most of the posts here, and I agree with most of what's said.  As much as I want to imput my thoughts, I'd look like an idiot and am better sticking to asking the questions and not answering. So, If I may ask, why is Marisa above Amelia in the Bottom teir?  Doesn't she have 1-2 range ability with  javelins at base? And what of the speed wings that you can get from her on eirika's route?  Are those more valuable than Marisa's usability as a whole?  

I like how the list is now, and personally I believe that Amelia is the worst unit in the game. But I want to know if my belief still holds up when 1-2 range is such an important factor in GBA FE and FE as a whole

I could see Amelia being above Marisa to be honest, after all a crap Cavalier/Paladin is still a Cavalier/Paladin. Getting her past her recruit phase is probably the worst of all the trainees but it's not exactly like Marisa is ORKOing stuff left and right upon recruitment. That being said Marisa has no business being above Neimi, Neimi has a bad start but she actually has good growths and she gets a horse upon promotion, she's perfectly usable if you invest a bit into her at the start, plus she has quite a bit of availability over Marisa. To be honest I'd say she's better than most if not all the units currently in D tier.

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On 2017-09-26 at 11:47 AM, Hawk King said:

Tier lists assume zero grinding and fast clears with an emphasis on lower turns.

Knoll is bad in these circumstances. He has to insta-promote, and has very few Chapters to do anything. Literally his only contributions are making phantoms for Siege tome bait and possibly killing an egg or two.

If grinding to Level 20/20 was allowed, every unit would be A-tier and up.

Yeah, I understand how the tier lists are made, but the thing is, in games like Sacred Stones, those assumptions sometimes feel arbitrary. I feel like the point of trainee units like Amelia and Ewan was precisely to make use of the grinding features. If a unit required many hours of grinding to be on par with everyone else, it wouldn't be the same, but grinding to an usable threshold in Sacred Stones can be done really quick.

But even if we consider the no grinding restriction, I feel like Knoll at least has a niche absolutely nobody else can fill in the form of Phantoms. I mean, Tethys is considered good, even though her actual stats are terrible, because she can do something nobody else can. Granted, Knoll's unique skill is not as useful as Tethys', but he's still the only one to do it, and it's pretty useful for defensive tactics. What can Syrene do that no other flyer can? Not to mention she's as frail as they come and around for only 5 chapters. The tier lists here feel like movement is the only important stat or ability. Well, that and the dancing skill. I'm exaggerating a bit, but still...

Also, in the desert chapter, Knoll can easily get a few levels before promotion, letting him become not-useless as far as combat is concerned even in a no-grind.

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8 hours ago, Heptade said:

Also, in the desert chapter, Knoll can easily get a few levels before promotion, letting him become not-useless as far as combat is concerned even in a no-grind.

The dessert is typically cleared in 6 or fewer turns. Knoll would be lucky to get more than 1 kill. He need at least 3 to gain just 1 Lv.

8 hours ago, Heptade said:

Yeah, I understand how the tier lists are made, but the thing is, in games like Sacred Stones, those assumptions sometimes feel arbitrary. I feel like the point of trainee units like Amelia and Ewan was precisely to make use of the grinding features. If a unit required many hours of grinding to be on par with everyone else, it wouldn't be the same, but grinding to an usable threshold in Sacred Stones can be done really quick.

Just because the game developers makes units like the trainees, it doesn't mean the players should alter long standing definitions of efficient play and tier list criteria. If there was an agreement among the players that trainees and other low-leveled units be allowed a certain amount of grinding than a list would reflect that. For drafts, trainees are allowed to be leveled to a 1st tier class, and Ewan even up to LV 5 sometimes. This rule certainly makes them quite usable. For the purposes of this list, however, no such rule was stated.

9 hours ago, Heptade said:

But even if we consider the no grinding restriction, I feel like Knoll at least has a niche absolutely nobody else can fill in the form of Phantoms. I mean, Tethys is considered good, even though her actual stats are terrible, because she can do something nobody else can. Granted, Knoll's unique skill is not as useful as Tethys', but he's still the only one to do it, and it's pretty useful for defensive tactics. What can Syrene do that no other flyer can? Not to mention she's as frail as they come and around for only 5 chapters. The tier lists here feel like movement is the only important stat or ability. Well, that and the dancing skill. I'm exaggerating a bit, but still...

Tethys is good because she saves at least 1 turn on every single map that she exists for. Knoll saves zero turns. He just makes phantom bait which only slightly improves the reliability of your units surviving an enemy phase. Syrene is only better than like the 6-8 worst units. She is more than capable of surviving a round or two of combat, killing gorgon eggs, and performing rescue drop strategies.

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I'm really not sure on Gilliam moving up much further- he can't double anything at base which means his offense is poor, low Mov, WTD in the early maps. Claiming he's Duessel with better availability seems like it's handwaving his early performance issues. He'll also eats into early Exp which could be used for Franz, Vanessa, Seth stealing all the kills etc.

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