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I honestly think Gerik should be below Garcia. Let's compare Hero!Garcia with Hero!Gerik: Garcia at level 14/1 and insta-promoted Gerik both have 15 Strength but Garcia has better strength growth so he obviously hits harder later on. Plus, Garcia has access to Garm and when using it, he has more AS so offensively, he is better than Gerik. Gerik doubles more frequently than Garcia until you get Garm, and that's like.. 3 or 5 chapters. Defensively, insta-promoted Gerik has more Defense but fewer HP than 14/1 Garcia so their durability are nearly identical. Not to mention, Garcia also has much much better availability than Gerik.

Gerik's weapon ranks are also meh, he gets D Axes after promotion while Garcia has already reach A or even S.

Oh, and Garcia also has a huge advantage: 14 con. He can be rescued by some promoted mounted units( Franz, Seth, Falcon Knight!Vanessa, etc), which significantly boosts his mobility. Gerik doesn't have that luxury thanks to his huge Con.

Gerik is, in my opinion, really overrated. His availability is meh, his mobility is average and his weapon ranks are inconvenient. He shouldn't be anywhere in A tier.

Edited by SpaceSamurai

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On 2017-11-01 at 3:36 AM, Hawk King said:

The dessert is typically cleared in 6 or fewer turns. Knoll would be lucky to get more than 1 kill. He need at least 3 to gain just 1 Lv.

I knew I wasn't playing efficiently, but not how far I was from it. Never mind anything I said here. I suck at this playstyle. The desert map is always one of the longest chapters for me, and the perfect place to gain levels... 

The strange thing is that, in every chapter I do play efficiently (I usually kill Novala quickly with Seth, for example, to avoid being surprised by unseen enemies), I feel like I'm playing bad, or almost cheating...

I wonder, though, what a Lagdou Ruins tier list would look like. But that would be for another topic.

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Going to have to agree with some of this stuff about Gerik to be honest, I mean his stats are pretty what the fuck for a level 10 Mercenary but he does have the issue of his huge Constitution and lower availability especially on Ephraim's route. I doubt his Axe rank is so much of an issue as I reckon he can probably destroy most stuff with a Hand Axe (just going on instinct here so feel free to prove me wrong) though lack of access to Garm is definitely a point against him and Garcia having C swords and A/S Axes is definitely better than Geriks C/B Swords and D Axes. Certainly not a bad unit by any means but not top of A.

I don't think Gilliam's Speed is so much of an issue as the only rout maps early are Chapter 2 which Eirika can Solo without any issue so anything else is just extra and Chapter 4 which is a bunch of 0 AS Monsters so he only needs one Speed proc to double and ORKO them. Other than that he's not really in a situation where he needs to be ORKOing stuff, that's kind of how I see it anyway maybe I'm giving him too much credit.

Lagdou Ruins Tier list:

S Tier: Riev.

E Tier: Not Riev.

:Kappa:

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Going to have to agree with some of this stuff about Gerik to be honest, I mean his stats are pretty what the fuck for a level 10 Mercenary but he does have the issue of his huge Constitution and lower availability especially on Ephraim's route. I doubt his Axe rank is so much of an issue as I reckon he can probably destroy most stuff with a Hand Axe (just going on instinct here so feel free to prove me wrong) though lack of access to Garm is definitely a point against him and Garcia having C swords and A/S Axes is definitely better than Geriks C/B Swords and D Axes. Certainly not a bad unit by any means but not top of A.

I don't think Gilliam's Speed is so much of an issue as the only rout maps early are Chapter 2 which Eirika can Solo without any issue so anything else is just extra and Chapter 4 which is a bunch of 0 AS Monsters so he only needs one Speed proc to double and ORKO them. Other than that he's not really in a situation where he needs to be ORKOing stuff, that's kind of how I see it anyway maybe I'm giving him too much credit.

Lagdou Ruins Tier list:

S Tier: Riev.

E Tier: Not Riev.

:Kappa:

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On 11/4/2017 at 7:33 AM, SpaceSamurai said:

I honestly think Gerik should be below Garcia. Let's compare Hero!Garcia with Hero!Gerik: Garcia at level 14/1 and insta-promoted Gerik both have 15 Strength but Garcia has better strength growth so he obviously hits harder later on. Plus, Garcia has access to Garm and when using it, he has more AS so offensively, he is better than Gerik. Gerik doubles more frequently than Garcia until you get Garm, and that's like.. 3 or 5 chapters. Defensively, insta-promoted Gerik has more Defense but fewer HP than 14/1 Garcia so their durability are nearly identical. Not to mention, Garcia also has much much better availability than Gerik.

Gerik's weapon ranks are also meh, he gets D Axes after promotion while Garcia has already reach A or even S.

Oh, and Garcia also has a huge advantage: 14 con. He can be rescued by some promoted mounted units( Franz, Seth, Falcon Knight!Vanessa, etc), which significantly boosts his mobility. Gerik doesn't have that luxury thanks to his huge Con.

Gerik is, in my opinion, really overrated. His availability is meh, his mobility is average and his weapon ranks are inconvenient. He shouldn't be anywhere in A tier.

I'm honestly highly reluctant to buy into this - you cite Garm as an advantage for Garcia, but just how fast is he getting to S rank axes when he pretty much never doubles anything ever (that isn't the crap that literally anybody can double, that is)???

And while I'm at it, I think Ross needs to go down. 3 speed and 4 move starting out isn't something I'm inclined to just handwave (which I think is going on given his current position). And I'm not sure he's exactly what I'd call a stellar performer after his trainee stage...

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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On 14/11/2017 at 3:50 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'm honestly highly reluctant to buy into this - you cite Garm as an advantage for Garcia, but just how fast is he getting to S rank axes when he pretty much never doubles anything ever (that isn't the crap that literally anybody can double, that is)???

By the route split, it's totally possible for Garcia to reach B axes and 1/3 the WEXP needed to reach A axes. He can reasonably reach S axes in chapter 16 or 17 if you have him spam Steel Axe in every chapter. Garcia doesn't reach S axes "fast", but he still reaches it sooner than anyone else( except Duessel) so it's a huge advantage for him.

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On November 17, 2017 at 11:05 PM, SpaceSamurai said:

By the route split, it's totally possible for Garcia to reach B axes and 1/3 the WEXP needed to reach A axes. He can reasonably reach S axes in chapter 16 or 17 if you have him spam Steel Axe in every chapter. Garcia doesn't reach S axes "fast", but he still reaches it sooner than anyone else( except Duessel) so it's a huge advantage for him.

Even so, if we're warpskipping, Garcia won't be accomplishing anything of note. And if he's dependent on Garm to do anything, that doesn't reflect on him in a positive light, IMHO... So as far as I'm concerned, you fell woefully short.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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39 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Even so, if we're warpskipping, Garcia won't be accomplishing anything of note. And if he's dependent on Garm to do anything, that doesn't reflect on him in a positive light, IMHO... So as far as I'm concerned, you fell woefully short.

Pretty much every single non-warp unit's value on this Tier list comes from what they do pre-Warp. Garcia does quite a bit before we start warping. Garm only helps him in the desert if on Ephraim's route and maybe for hitting the Demon King.

 

On 11/4/2017 at 8:33 AM, SpaceSamurai said:

stuff about Gerik and Garcia.

Gerik is better than Garcia because he can become a Ranger. Ranger is in fact his best class. Only on 0% growths would you prefer to have his Hero class.

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39 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Even so, if we're warpskipping, Garcia won't be accomplishing anything of note. And if he's dependent on Garm to do anything, that doesn't reflect on him in a positive light, IMHO... So as far as I'm concerned, you fell woefully short.

Pretty much every single non-warp unit's value on this Tier list comes from what they do pre-Warp. Garcia does quite a bit before we start warping. Garm only helps him in the desert if on Ephraim's route and maybe for hitting the Demon King.

 

On 11/4/2017 at 8:33 AM, SpaceSamurai said:

stuff about Gerik and Garcia.

Gerik is better than Garcia because he can become a Ranger. Ranger is in fact his best class. Only on 0% growths would you prefer to have his Hero class.

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30 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

Pretty much every single non-warp unit's value on this Tier list comes from what they do pre-Warp. Garcia does quite a bit before we start warping. Garm only helps him in the desert if on Ephraim's route and maybe for hitting the Demon King.

 

Gerik is better than Garcia because he can become a Ranger. Ranger is in fact his best class. Only on 0% growths would you prefer to have his Hero class.

Well, you do have a point, but I just happen to think Garcia ain't all he's cracked up to be because GBA fighters are horrid (as are damn near all fighters). Sure, he hits hard... But that's about the only good thing I can say about him.

I'm not sure you're serious here...

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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On 11/22/2017 at 10:16 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Even so, if we're warpskipping, Garcia won't be accomplishing anything of note. And if he's dependent on Garm to do anything, that doesn't reflect on him in a positive light, IMHO... So as far as I'm concerned, you fell woefully short.

Garcia is actually one of the best units for warpskipping strategies. He can one-round a lot of late-game bosses thanks to Garm and his high strength. He's like Duessel( Eirika's route) but better offensively. And you don't even need to use Warp to transport Garcia lol, as I said, he can be rescued by your main fliers, therefore you can save Warp uses for later maps. Garcia's con is very flexible in some chapters( for example: chapter 19, the final one,etc )

23 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Gerik is better than Garcia because he can become a Ranger. Ranger is in fact his best class. Only on 0% growths would you prefer to have his Hero class.

Ranger!Gerik is awful in route maps due to not having enemy phase. He also sucks at carrying other units due to his high Con. Not to mention, he starts with D bows, which is very inconvenient, at least axe rank is easy to increase since there're hand axes, Gerik struggles to use strong bows and therefore not very useful at fighting. Sure he has 7 mov, but he is also worse at combat, and he doesn't have access to powerful weapons like Garm, which hurts his late-game use.

 

23 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Pretty much every single non-warp unit's value on this Tier list comes from what they do pre-Warp. Garcia does quite a bit before we start warping. Garm only helps him in the desert if on Ephraim's route and maybe for hitting the Demon King.

Chapter 17: HM Lyon has 46 HP and 20 Defense (+3 from the throne), Garcia at level 20/7 has 43 attack with Garm, he deals 46 damage to Lyon when doubling so he ORKO him. Garcia is obviously one of the best bosskillers in this chapter( if not the best).

Chapter 20: Riev has 51 HP and 16 Defense, 20/5 Garcia has 42 attack with Garm, he deals 52 damage to Riev, which is enough to ORKO him. Garcia is a good bosskiller in this chapter as well.

Even Seth at level 20 only has 38 attack with Vidofnir, he fails to ORKO the bosses I mentioned above, Garcia can accomplish the tasks that even Seth at max level can't, so i don't see how Garm "only help him in the desert".

 

MODEDIT: yo dont doublepost

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I'm confused about Tethys' no doubt she's on a higher tier, but would S be too high? I love Tethys, but being a dancer in Sacred Stones isn't as vital as other games, due to grinding. Usually, the harder the difficulty, the more valuable a dancer becomes. Sacred Stones is probably one of the easiest FEs. I mean, I still think she deserves S, but she's more on the border though. I wouldn't consider as effective as say Lalum or Laylea, but she's still very good though.

Should she be A for Normal Mode and S for Hard Mode?

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I'm confused about Tethys' no doubt she's on a higher tier, but would S be too high? I love Tethys, but being a dancer in Sacred Stones isn't as vital as other games, due to grinding.

 

From the OP:

Quote

I'll be assuming that Seth is not being (ab)used and grinding is not allowed.

 

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7 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Garcia is actually one of the best units for warpskipping strategies. He can one-round a lot of late-game bosses thanks to Garm and his high strength. He's like Duessel(Eirika's route) but better offensively. And you don't even need to use Warp to transport Garcia lol, as I said, he can be rescued by your main fliers, therefore you can save Warp uses for later maps. Garcia's con is very flexible in some chapters( for example: chapter 19, the final one,etc )

Except this only means something if he S ranks, which I don't think he's going to do in time when he never doubles ever. . . And I don't think that mentioning Duessel did your case any favors, since there was talk that he should drop (Eirika route Duessel being in B tier sounds kinda stupidiculous to me). . . Anyways, the fact that even a Garcia promoted at 20 loses in most every stat to an instantly promoted Gerik is really quite sad.

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59 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except this only means something if he S ranks, which I don't think he's going to do in time when he never doubles ever. . . And I don't think that mentioning Duessel did your case any favors, since there was talk that he should drop (Eirika route Duessel being in B tier sounds kinda stupidiculous to me).

Why would the fact that Garcia doesn't double much have anything to do with his axe rank? Your units don't need to double enemies to gain more Wexp, Steel axe gives 2 Wexp and fatal hits also give double Wexp. Garcia has like 12,13 chapters to train before you get Garm, I would be surprised if he doesn't reach S axes after such a long span of time.

59 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Anyways, the fact that even a Garcia promoted at 20 loses in most every stat to an instantly promoted Gerik is really quite sad.

Level 20 Garcia has higher strength and HP than insta-promoted Gerik, he only has slightly lower Speed and Defense so I don't think it's really a big difference. Even if Garcia somehow gets stats-screwed, his good availability is still enough to make up to his stats.

Edited by SpaceSamurai

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10 minutes ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Why would the fact that Garcia doesn't double much have anything to do with his axe rank? Your units don't need to double enemies to gain more Wexp, Steel axe gives 2 Wexp and fatal hits also give double Wexp. Garcia has like 13 chapters to train before chapter 16, I would be surprised if he doesn't reach S axes after such a long span of time.

Level 20 Garcia has higher strength and HP than insta-promoted Gerik, he only has slightly lower Speed and Defense so I don't think it's really a big difference. Even if Garcia somehow gets stats-screwed, his good availability is still enough to make up to his stats.

I dunno about you, but if you ask me, high HP and Strength alone don't a good unit make, especially when everything else is mediocre to bad... As for his not doubling, it slows his Wexp gain relative to units that do.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Garcia has no issues reaching S axes, he joins early on and he can double some of the slower enemies in the game. Also he can smash eggs, snags, and walls with devil axe for easy weapon exp tbh

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28 minutes ago, thejohnmatthews said:

Garcia has no issues reaching S axes, he joins early on and he can double some of the slower enemies in the game. Also he can smash eggs, snags, and walls with devil axe for easy weapon exp tbh

As in, the enemies that literally anyone can double? Because the enemies that Garcia can double are also the ones that are so slow that doubling them isn't a feat worth bragging about... (And it doesn't help most of them are the joke fodder enemy types) Also, the Devil Axe doesn't come until very late in the game... And it's a Devil Axe we're talking about - I don't think it's worth it.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

As in, the enemies that literally anyone can double? Because the enemies that Garcia can double are also the ones that are so slow that doubling them isn't a feat worth bragging about... (And it doesn't help most of them are the joke fodder enemy types) Also, the Devil Axe doesn't come until very late in the game... And it's a Devil Axe we're talking about - I don't think it's worth it.

The point is that when doubling these slower enemies Garcia can get a nice chunk of wexp out of it. Devil Axe comes in Ch 15. which is right around the time you get Garm.

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3 hours ago, thejohnmatthews said:

The point is that when doubling these slower enemies Garcia can get a nice chunk of wexp out of it. Devil Axe comes in Ch 15. which is right around the time you get Garm.

And I don't see that as much of an advantage for him when anyone else gets that same benefit. As for the Devil Axe, that does qualify as "late" by my standards... and the self-injury risk isn't something I'm willing to ignore. Oh, and walls and snags are virtually nonexistent by then.

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I really don't think Garcia is going to have issue hitting S axes by the time you get Garm if you're using him a reasonable amount, especially on Eirika route. Even on Ephraim's route I still think he'll be able to use it by the desert. Garcia is dependant on Garm yes but it fixes his issue which is his Speed allowing him to maybe double the late game bosses with it  (he's borderline on doubling or not) besides everyone is more or less 'dependant' on the Sacred Twins in the late game and you have so many uses of them you can just use them non-stop so I don't really see how that's a point against him.

On 22/11/2017 at 4:09 PM, Hawk King said:

Gerik is better than Garcia because he can become a Ranger. Ranger is in fact his best class. Only on 0% growths would you prefer to have his Hero class.

Why do you think Ranger is Gerik's preferred promotion? I'm not disagreeing necessarily, just interested to know your reasoning and how that makes up for what Garcia can do while Gerik doesn't exist.

On 22/11/2017 at 4:33 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Well, you do have a point, but I just happen to think Garcia ain't all he's cracked up to be because GBA fighters are horrid (as are damn near all fighters). Sure, he hits hard... But that's about the only good thing I can say about him.

I'm not sure you're serious here...

I really think you're selling his early game short here, I mean who is better than him pre route split: Seth(lol), Franz and Vanessa I'd say but aside from those three he's one of your best units imo, Artur and Lute are going to surpass him before long but they aren't able to front line like Garcia can and he remains somewhat useful, not the best by any means but he's hardly horrid.

On 23/11/2017 at 10:04 AM, Dandy Druid said:

I'm confused about Tethys' no doubt she's on a higher tier, but would S be too high? I love Tethys, but being a dancer in Sacred Stones isn't as vital as other games, due to grinding. Usually, the harder the difficulty, the more valuable a dancer becomes. Sacred Stones is probably one of the easiest FEs. I mean, I still think she deserves S, but she's more on the border though. I wouldn't consider as effective as say Lalum or Laylea, but she's still very good though.

Should she be A for Normal Mode and S for Hard Mode?

Personally I would make S tier only consist of Franz and Vanessa and maybe Artur. Tethys' is a great unit without a doubt but she misses out on half the game, just how Seth is clearly in a tier of his own I think that Vanessa and Franz should be in a tier of their own. Everyone else is, I think, a step below those two, including Tethys.

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2 hours ago, Sturm said:

I really don't think Garcia is going to have issue hitting S axes by the time you get Garm if you're using him a reasonable amount, especially on Eirika route. Even on Ephraim's route I still think he'll be able to use it by the desert. Garcia is dependant on Garm yes but it fixes his issue which is his Speed allowing him to maybe double the late game bosses with it  (he's borderline on doubling or not) besides everyone is more or less 'dependant' on the Sacred Twins in the late game and you have so many uses of them you can just use them non-stop so I don't really see how that's a point against him.

Um... what??? I think you lost me with that "everyone is more or less dependent on the Sacred Twins" comment, because frankly, other than against the Demon King, Draco Zombies and Lyon, they're largely needless overkill.

2 hours ago, Sturm said:

I really think you're selling his early game short here, I mean who is better than him pre route split: Seth(lol), Franz and Vanessa I'd say but aside from those three he's one of your best units imo, Artur and Lute are going to surpass him before long but they aren't able to front line like Garcia can and he remains somewhat useful, not the best by any means but he's hardly horrid.

Maybe I am, but to be frank, there's only so much credit I can give someone whose only good stats are Strength and HP...

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On 11/23/2017 at 3:56 AM, samthedigital said:

 

From the OP:

 

Oh ok. I read the OP too fast.

17 hours ago, Sturm said:

Personally I would make S tier only consist of Franz and Vanessa and maybe Artur. Tethys' is a great unit without a doubt but she misses out on half the game, just how Seth is clearly in a tier of his own I think that Vanessa and Franz should be in a tier of their own. Everyone else is, I think, a step below those two, including Tethys.

I was thinking of making her an A, but since this is a no grinding/no Seth abuse run, then I'm considering her to be more vital. But her availability is still a problem... just before the halfway mark. If she's an S, I would definitely place her last, or first A.

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19 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Um... what??? I think you lost me with that "everyone is more or less dependent on the Sacred Twins" comment, because frankly, other than against the Demon King, Draco Zombies and Lyon, they're largely needless overkill.

What I meant is that from chapter 16 onwards you only need to kill the boss (aside from the egg chapter) to beat the map and typically the best way to do that is to use one of the Sacred Twin weapons with a sufficiently strong unit. Basically you said that Garcia being dependant on Garm is a bad thing but I would say that him being able to use Garm, seeing as it's probably the best of the Sacred Twin weapons, should be seen as a point in his favour, especially as it fixes his issue which is his Speed allowing him to potentially double and one round some of the late game bosses. If you're doing Ephraim route it enables him to double basically everything in the desert aside from the Myrmidons and Mercenaries which he can probably one shot with it so that's also a plus. 

Also I'll be more explicit as to where I think Garcia should be seeing as the OP isn't getting updated and maybe there's a bit of confusion, not least on my part probably.

The following unis that are currently above Garcia I think should be below him:

  • Gerik *
  • Eirika!Cormag (should be separated by route)
  • Moulder
  • Duessel (both routes)
  • Epraim!Saleh
  • Innes
  • Eirika!Ephraim*
  • Natasha
  • Ephraim!Eirika*

The ones I asterisked are ones that I think are close and I could change my mind if someone comes up with a good argument for them (that's not to say that I would never change my mind on the others if someone comes up with a good enough reason just that those are the closest).

3 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

I was thinking of making her an A, but since this is a no grinding/no Seth abuse run, then I'm considering her to be more vital. But her availability is still a problem... just before the halfway mark. If she's an S, I would definitely place her last, or first A.

Personally I would consider an S tier unit to be something like: 'a unit that is extremely useful to the team and also has great availability' which I would put Vanessa and Franz into (and Seth but obviously he's a step above even that) and I would consider an A tier unit something like: 'a unit that is either extremely useful but has lesser availability OR a unit that is useful but not fantastic and has very good availability' which I would put someone like Tethys or Saleh into. Though of course that's my own thinking and not part of the OP so it's up to others to say what exactly makes a difference between tiers for them unless the OP gets changed.

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On 11/22/2017 at 11:33 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'm not sure you're serious here...

On 11/23/2017 at 2:39 AM, SpaceSamurai said:

Ranger!Gerik is awful in route maps due to not having enemy phase. He also sucks at carrying other units due to his high Con. Not to mention, he starts with D bows, which is very inconvenient, at least axe rank is easy to increase since there're hand axes, Gerik struggles to use strong bows and therefore not very useful at fighting. Sure he has 7 mov, but he is also worse at combat, and he doesn't have access to powerful weapons like Garm, which hurts his late-game use.

On 11/24/2017 at 8:08 PM, Sturm said:

Why do you think Ranger is Gerik's preferred promotion? I'm not disagreeing necessarily, just interested to know your reasoning and how that makes up for what Garcia can do while Gerik doesn't exist.

In drafts, mounted units are kind of scarce so Ranger is almost always his best option there as you need at least 3 mounted/flying units for many turn saving strats. As a Ranger he can also use Longbows upon promotion which is necessary to save a turn on Eirika's Chapter 11? (the FoW map with L'Arachel and Dozla in the middle).

Thankfully the only units you need to be able to rescue with Gerik are the Lords which he can do just fine as a Ranger. And believe it or not, being bow or sword locked really isn't that much of an issue in FE8. Even on route maps. Enemy groups can be easily handled with one or the other just fine. You only need Hand Axes or Javelins for a few specific instances. And in these instances you also need 7-8 movement so Hero!Gerik isn't going to be able to fill that role anyway.

Ranger just allows Gerik to contribute on every single map. In drafts for instance, Garcia is always taken before Gerik, but when we get past Chapter 8 Garcia begins to lose his value due to his low movement. Gerik is able to contribute to getting Eirika to the Throne whereas Garcia gets relegated to visiting villages and opening chests and stuff.

 

If there are no restrictions on team composition, Garcia will have trouble stealing kills from Franz, Nessie, and Seth, and he will get benched after Chapter 8; Gerik most likely won't even get used at all except for maybe another mount for rescue chains.

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