Jump to content

Recommended Posts

On 25/11/2017 at 5:50 PM, Sturm said:

The following unis that are currently above Garcia I think should be below him:

  • Gerik *
  • Eirika!Cormag (should be separated by route)
  • Moulder
  • Duessel (both routes)
  • Epraim!Saleh
  • Innes
  • Eirika!Ephraim*
  • Natasha
  • Ephraim!Eirika*

Either one of Moulder/Natasha is borderline essential before getting Saleh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 26/11/2017 at 1:58 AM, Hawk King said:

In drafts, mounted units are kind of scarce so Ranger is almost always his best option there as you need at least 3 mounted/flying units for many turn saving strats. As a Ranger he can also use Longbows upon promotion which is necessary to save a turn on Eirika's Chapter 11? (the FoW map with L'Arachel and Dozla in the middle).

Thankfully the only units you need to be able to rescue with Gerik are the Lords which he can do just fine as a Ranger. And believe it or not, being bow or sword locked really isn't that much of an issue in FE8. Even on route maps. Enemy groups can be easily handled with one or the other just fine. You only need Hand Axes or Javelins for a few specific instances. And in these instances you also need 7-8 movement so Hero!Gerik isn't going to be able to fill that role anyway.

Ranger just allows Gerik to contribute on every single map. In drafts for instance, Garcia is always taken before Gerik, but when we get past Chapter 8 Garcia begins to lose his value due to his low movement. Gerik is able to contribute to getting Eirika to the Throne whereas Garcia gets relegated to visiting villages and opening chests and stuff.

 

If there are no restrictions on team composition, Garcia will have trouble stealing kills from Franz, Nessie, and Seth, and he will get benched after Chapter 8; Gerik most likely won't even get used at all except for maybe another mount for rescue chains.

Yeah I can buy that about Ranger!Gerik, having 10 effective attack range with the Longbow and being able to contribute to rescue-drops with Canto does sound like it would be better than Hand Axe access especially on maps like Queen of White Dunes and the Egg Chapter (I don't even know the name of that map I just always call it 'egg chapter') as well as the Caer Pelyn maps if you instant promote him. I still think that Garcia's early game contributions are worth a little more than Gerik's potential mid game contributions though, I just see Gerik as having more units that make him redundant I guess whereas Garcia slightly less so, that and Garcia's availability slightly clinches it for him I think. Gerik is without a doubt the better unit after he joins though so I guess it's mostly down to what you need on your team between the two. The thing about no restrictions on team composition is true but I tend to try to ignore that because honestly even Franz, who's like the second or third best unit, gets made almost completely redundant by Seth. In other words I think you have to almost assume you're not using Seth in order to give others a rating because he's just that good, hopefully that makes sense.

6 hours ago, Heptade said:

Either one of Moulder/Natasha is borderline essential before getting Saleh.

I don't really agree with this, having a healer is nice I guess but I wouldn't call them even remotely essential. The issues I have with Moulder and Natasha are that firstly Vulneraries exist, Natasha only heals two points more than a Vulnerary at base with a Heal though of course Mend exists, of course they do mean the unit getting healed can use their action to do something else but then you have the problem of protecting them and they don't offer anything in rout maps in fact they hinder you by distracting enemies away from combat units. The other thing is that they can't keep up with your mounted combat units and units like Garcia and Gilliam don't really need a healer a lot of the time a Vulnerary now and then will suffice. Probably the biggest thing though is that they take a millennia to level up I mean it takes them 10 turns to level up once by using Heal and you can complete 2-3 maps in that time so they are never really going anywhere, by the time you get to chapter 9-10 Artur or Lute should probably be promoted and they fill your healing needs especially as they want to be getting all the Staff uses they can to build Staff rank. I see them as being occasionally useful in the early game but afterwards they do nothing really, of course they can Warp in late game but because they gain levels so slowly they have terrible range so it's not really worth it when you have Saleh, Artur and Lute. Honestly I would put Natasha as low as D because she's just a worse Moulder and I don't even think he's that good, she gets D just because she can Warp which is more than some unit's can say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 29/11/2017 at 8:35 AM, Sturm said:

they don't offer anything in rout maps in fact they hinder you by distracting enemies away from combat units.

It's never hard to keep your healer away from enemies's attack range, really. And no, healers offer a lot in route maps, you can't kill enemies fast if your units get killed first, so keeping them alive is essential, and using Vulneraries means you have to waste a turn so it will slow down your progress. 

On 29/11/2017 at 8:35 AM, Sturm said:

by the time you get to chapter 9-10 Artur or Lute should probably be promoted and they fill your healing needs especially as they want to be getting all the Staff uses they can to build Staff rank

Both promoted Artur and Lute have much lower staff rank than Moulder. And if they spend time spamming staves they will meet less combat, which significantly limits their exp gains. Moulder can reach A staves easily when unprompted while Artur still struggles to reach B staves.

On 29/11/2017 at 8:35 AM, Sturm said:

I see them as being occasionally useful in the early game but afterwards they do nothing really, of course they can Warp in late game but because they gain levels so slowly they have terrible range so it's not really worth it when you have Saleh, Artur and Lute.

Moulder is your only secondary warp user if you play Ephraim's route and it never hurts to have a secondary warp user, Saleh appears too late so he won't reach A staves any time soon and Natasha takes forever to promote. And Lute?? When does she even reach A staves??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 01/12/2017 at 3:27 PM, SpaceSamurai said:

t's never hard to keep your healer away from enemies's attack range, really. And no, healers offer a lot in route maps, you can't kill enemies fast if your units get killed first, so keeping them alive is essential, and using Vulneraries means you have to waste a turn so it will slow down your progress. 

I agree you can't kill things if your units are dead but your units dying is not especially an issue for the most part. Having to use a Vulnerary is at times a hindrance but then so is having to hang back or spend time clearing the way for Moulder or Natasha. Personally if I had some team X for let's say Chapter 4 for arguments sake and I had the choice of adding either Garcia or Moulder to that team I would choose Garcia pretty much every time and it would be the same for almost every other map that's how I see it.

On 01/12/2017 at 3:27 PM, SpaceSamurai said:

Both promoted Artur and Lute have much lower staff rank than Moulder. And if they spend time spamming staves they will meet less combat, which significantly limits their exp gains. Moulder can reach A staves easily when unprompted while Artur still struggles to reach B staves.

Staves give experience when you use them and they can still kill stuff on enemy phase I really don't get what you mean when you say their experience gains will be significantly limited, they won't be limited at all. Artur has absolutely 0 problems hitting A Staves even as a Sage and he can go Bishop if that's even a remote concern, Lute doesn't have issues either. Moulder having A Staves by the end of Chapter 9 or whatever is of no advantage when you don't have access to higher level Staves until later in the game.

On 01/12/2017 at 3:27 PM, SpaceSamurai said:

Moulder is your only secondary warp user if you play Ephraim's route and it never hurts to have a secondary warp user, Saleh appears too late so he won't reach A staves any time soon and Natasha takes forever to promote. And Lute?? When does she even reach A staves??

This bit I agree with, you make a good point here about Moulder on Ephraim's route and he should be given more credit on that route due to the fact that Saleh has no chance of hitting A staves and as for Lute I'm not sure I think it's feasible, with added stress, given that you really go all out to make her get there but it would be difficult to say the least and certainly Moulder is the better choice for a secondary Warp/Rescue user.

On the subject of different routes I feel it would make more sense to simply have two different lists for each one, granted a lot of units would be the same on each but I think enough should have different placements to warrant having two lists. It also means that you don't have to compare things like Eirika!Saleh to Ephraim!Cormag that would never exist at the same time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On November 25, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Sturm said:

What I meant is that from chapter 16 onwards you only need to kill the boss (aside from the egg chapter) to beat the map and typically the best way to do that is to use one of the Sacred Twin weapons with a sufficiently strong unit. Basically you said that Garcia being dependant on Garm is a bad thing but I would say that him being able to use Garm, seeing as it's probably the best of the Sacred Twin weapons, should be seen as a point in his favour, especially as it fixes his issue which is his Speed allowing him to potentially double and one round some of the late game bosses. If you're doing Ephraim route it enables him to double basically everything in the desert aside from the Myrmidons and Mercenaries which he can probably one shot with it so that's also a plus. 

Also I'll be more explicit as to where I think Garcia should be seeing as the OP isn't getting updated and maybe there's a bit of confusion, not least on my part probably.

The following unis that are currently above Garcia I think should be below him:

  • Gerik *
  • Eirika!Cormag (should be separated by route)
  • Moulder
  • Duessel (both routes)
  • Epraim!Saleh
  • Innes
  • Eirika!Ephraim*
  • Natasha
  • Ephraim!Eirika*

The ones I asterisked are ones that I think are close and I could change my mind if someone comes up with a good argument for them (that's not to say that I would never change my mind on the others if someone comes up with a good enough reason just that those are the closest).

Perhaps, but frankly, I think you're giving Garcia way too much credit - sure, he's good before the route split, but what about afterwards?? And I don't agree on giving Garcia credit for Garm just because it makes him not be a single-strike wonder.

6 hours ago, Sturm said:

I agree you can't kill things if your units are dead but your units dying is not especially an issue for the most part. Having to use a Vulnerary is at times a hindrance but then so is having to hang back or spend time clearing the way for Moulder or Natasha. Personally if I had some team X for let's say Chapter 4 for arguments sake and I had the choice of adding either Garcia or Moulder to that team I would choose Garcia pretty much every time and it would be the same for almost every other map that's how I see it.

Personally, I'd say a healer would be a better choice than another combat unit - while I do agree that it's a hindrance to make sure they don't get attacked, there's also the fact that vulneraries are pretty expensive for how little they heal (100 gold for 10 HP), and while that may suffice early on, they don't heal more as the game progresses; sure, you could bring up Elixirs, but those are really expensive (one sets you back 3 grand).

Also, I agree that there should've been two separate tier lists, instead of the one we got.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Sturm said:

I agree you can't kill things if your units are dead but your units dying is not especially an issue for the most part. Having to use a Vulnerary is at times a hindrance but then so is having to hang back or spend time clearing the way for Moulder or Natasha.

What do you mean by "dying is not especially an issue for the most part" ? The generic bandits in chapter 3 have 15-16 attack with Iron axes, they deal 10-11 damage to base Garcia so he gets 3HKO'd, Garcia 2RKO the bandits so he will get hit twice( one hit on player phase and one hit on enemy phase), the only way for him to survive another hit without healing is by dodging. Aside from Seth and Gilliam, your other units have no better( or even worse) durability than Garcia so you will need healing utility pretty frequently.

12 hours ago, Sturm said:

Staves give experience when you use them and they can still kill stuff on enemy phase I really don't get what you mean when you say their experience gains will be significantly limited, they won't be limited at all.

Lute and Artur have trouble surviving enemy phase. Even Saleh at base gets 3HKO'd by a lot of regular enemies so don't expect your other magic users to do any better. 

Edited by SpaceSamurai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both Artur and Eiraka!Saleh technically don't hit A staves naturally- the LTC is only able to use them because they are given almost ALL of the nonessential Dance turns from Tethys  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/1/2017 at 10:27 AM, SpaceSamurai said:

And if they spend time spamming staves they will meet less combat, which significantly limits their exp gains.

95% of the combat in this game is and should be done on the enemy phase. Staves can only be used on the player phase. And...

2 hours ago, Reality said:

Both Artur and Eiraka!Saleh technically don't hit A staves naturally- the LTC is only able to use them because they are given almost ALL of the nonessential Dance turns from Tethys  

^ because of this, staff users should be swinging their staves on every single turn.

6 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Lute and Artur have trouble surviving enemy phase. Even Saleh at base gets 3HKO'd by a lot of regular enemies so don't expect your other magic users to do any better. 

They might get 2-3HKO'd but they face abysmally low hitrates. The player is also assumed to be intelligent enough to use dracoshields and Angelic robes when they can significantly increase a units survivability.

On 11/28/2017 at 1:37 PM, Heptade said:

Either one of Moulder/Natasha is borderline essential before getting Saleh.

Useful, not even close to essential. A 2nd staff user however is essential for some of the later chapters LTC clears so using them is definitely recommended.

12 hours ago, Sweet_Basil said:

Neimi below Ewan...what and how?

Because people make tier lists despite not knowing a game very well. Neimi is easily better than 10-12 other characters in this game. Slow start and all.

On 11/28/2017 at 8:35 PM, Sturm said:

I still think that Garcia's early game contributions are worth a little more than Gerik's potential mid game contributions though, I just see Gerik as having more units that make him redundant I guess whereas Garcia slightly less so, that and Garcia's availability slightly clinches it for him I think. Gerik is without a doubt the better unit after he joins though so I guess it's mostly down to what you need on your team between the two. The thing about no restrictions on team composition is true but I tend to try to ignore that because honestly even Franz, who's like the second or third best unit, gets made almost completely redundant by Seth. In other words I think you have to almost assume you're not using Seth in order to give others a rating because he's just that good, hopefully that makes sense.

The thing is that if Seth prevents Franz from ever becoming anything special then Garcia doesn't have a chance in hell of doing anything worthwhile. However on an optimal LTC run, it is best to use Seth basically only for boss kills or anytime that it is absolutely necessary. Overusing Seth in the beginning can actually cause for a lower total turncount than a Sethless LTC run can achieve. It is perfectly possible to make it to Chapter 8 with Seth having gained 4+ Lvs and both Franz and Vanessa at Lv 10 or higher. Garcia isn't doing squat in this scenario. Hell, Eirika can even solo the first 8 Chapters pretty well. Garcia really doesn't do a whole lot even when the team composition is limited. His greatest contribution is probably helping to break walls in Chapter 3. He won't be fast enough to double and secure 1RKO's so he will just clog up the frontlines if you try to have him lead the way for Eirika.  Gerik can contribute regardless of team composition and he will never be a liability. The difference between Garcia and Gerik is that Garcia is completely unable to do anything worthwhile and Gerik is able to do things, but he just isn't necessary to do them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/12/2017 at 3:33 AM, Hawk King said:

They might get 2-3HKO'd but they face abysmally low hitrates. The player is also assumed to be intelligent enough to use dracoshields and Angelic robes when they can significantly increase a units survivability.

Lute and Artur are no dodgetank. 30-40% hitrates sure seem low, but abysmally low? No. Every angelic robe in this game should be used on your main fliers. Dracoshield does help their durability but how much does it help? They might be able to take one more hit but probably still get 3HKO'd by stronger enemies. I would rather use the Dracoshield on someone that is actually durable and has better combat ability.

 

On 7/12/2017 at 3:33 AM, Hawk King said:

The thing is that if Seth prevents Franz from ever becoming anything special then Garcia doesn't have a chance in hell of doing anything worthwhile. However on an optimal LTC run, it is best to use Seth basically only for boss kills or anytime that it is absolutely necessary. Overusing Seth in the beginning can actually cause for a lower total turncount than a Sethless LTC run can achieve. It is perfectly possible to make it to Chapter 8 with Seth having gained 4+ Lvs and both Franz and Vanessa at Lv 10 or higher. Garcia isn't doing squat in this scenario.

I don't see how Vanessa can reach lv 10 in just 9 chapters. She sucks at killing stuff, is lance-locked when the game is filled with axe users and gets 2HKO'd by almost everything. Not to mention, she's usually busy transporting other units so there's no way she could get enough kills to reach level 10. Garcia, however, doesn't have those issues, he starts at higher levels, doesn't get 2HKO'd by anything, doesn't get destroyed by archers and can deal significant damage to most enemies. Franz and Vanessa have higher move so they can catch up with Seth, but what's the point? Seth would steal all the kills before they could even land a hit on anything.

On 7/12/2017 at 3:33 AM, Hawk King said:

His greatest contribution is probably helping to break walls in Chapter 3.

Chapter 4: Garcia is one of the best units to handle the zombie reinforcement or the revevant reinforcement while Seth is killing everything on the other side of the bridge.

Chapter 8: Garcia can kill the Knights in the chest room to clear the path for your other units. He is bulky enough to take hits from the knights and can even ORKO them with steel axes.

Chapter 9( Eirika's route) : Seth should be handling the southern part of the map. So Garcia along with your other units is neccesary to handle the rest of the map.

Chapter 11, 12, 15 (Eirika) : Leave Garcia at his starting position and wait until the reinforcement appears to kill them. High movement is unnecessary here. You will need someone with high HP to take hits and strong enough to kill enemies so Garcia is perfect for this job.

Garcia's contribution is obviously much more than just breaking walls in chapter 3.

Edited by SpaceSamurai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Methinks Kyle + Forde should go above Duessel (Ephraim). Let's take a look at a few of Duessel's problems that Kyle and Forde don't have:

-He has 15 con, which may seem like a boon so he doesn't lose AS from heavy weapons, but this means it's hard to rescue him if you want to get him places.

-Only six movement. He does have good combat, but since rescuing him is extremely hard his mobility is a bit damaged.

When Duessel joins in Chapter 10, Kyle and Forde will be close to having as good combat as Duessel as well as two more points of movement (Eventually they can surpass him stat-wise). Kyle and Forde's small contributions in Chapters 5x, 8, and 9 are also there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Chapter 4: Garcia is one of the best units to handle the zombie reinforcement or the revevant reinforcement while Seth is killing everything on the other side of the bridge.

These are Revenants, AKA cannon fodder, we're talking about. Anyone can handle them other than Moulder and Ross. So this isn't much of a point in his favour.

12 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Chapter 8: Garcia can kill the Knights in the chest room to clear the path for your other units. He is bulky enough to take hits from the knights and can even ORKO them with steel axes.

I dunno about this - I think he has a chance of death if he blocks enough of those with his face (around 3-4)... and with his low speed, I wouldn't count on him dodging.

12 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Chapter 11, 12, 15 (Eirika) : Leave Garcia at his starting position and wait until the reinforcement appears to kill them. High movement is unnecessary here. You will need someone with high HP to take hits and strong enough to kill enemies so Garcia is perfect for this job.

 

Chapter 11 - Revenants galore. Whoopedy-do. Killing revenants easily isn't a feat worth bragging about...

Chapter 12  - IIRC, the reinforcements near the start are Mauthe Doogs and Gargoyles. Garcia might be able to handle the latter, but not so much the former.

Chapter 15. Pegs are easy for anyone to defeat. Again, not something I'm giving Garcia credit for being able to handle with ease.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 06/12/2017 at 6:39 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Perhaps, but frankly, I think you're giving Garcia way too much credit - sure, he's good before the route split, but what about afterwards?? And I don't agree on giving Garcia credit for Garm just because it makes him not be a single-strike wonder.

I would still say he is decent after the route split as well, he contributes to the rout maps and he's good for doing utility stuff such as getting the Energy ring in Chapter 14 for example. I'll fully admit that being able to kill monsters is not really something to write home about and basically any half decent unit can do this but Garcia is just as good as most others, he's just a unit that get's stuff done without you really needing to ever worry about him I think. I wasn't trying to say he should be given credit for being able to use Garm per se I meant that it means he can contribute better than what his stats would suggest.

On 06/12/2017 at 6:39 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Personally, I'd say a healer would be a better choice than another combat unit - while I do agree that it's a hindrance to make sure they don't get attacked, there's also the fact that vulneraries are pretty expensive for how little they heal (100 gold for 10 HP), and while that may suffice early on, they don't heal more as the game progresses; sure, you could bring up Elixirs, but those are really expensive (one sets you back 3 grand).

Also, I agree that there should've been two separate tier lists, instead of the one we got.

I've never thought that money was even remotely an issue in this game, I would have no problem buying 4 or 5 Elixirs without giving it a second thought truth be told.

On 06/12/2017 at 7:25 AM, Sweet_Basil said:

Neimi below Ewan...what and how?

I agree, this is somewhat questionable as I said previously I think she's probably better than all the people currently in D tier.

On 06/12/2017 at 1:21 PM, SpaceSamurai said:

What do you mean by "dying is not especially an issue for the most part" ? The generic bandits in chapter 3 have 15-16 attack with Iron axes, they deal 10-11 damage to base Garcia so he gets 3HKO'd, Garcia 2RKO the bandits so he will get hit twice( one hit on player phase and one hit on enemy phase), the only way for him to survive another hit without healing is by dodging. Aside from Seth and Gilliam, your other units have no better( or even worse) durability than Garcia so you will need healing utility pretty frequently.

On paper yes he would die if you had him fight 3 Iron Axe Fighters simultaneously but in reality it doesn't play out like that. The one to the north will fight Colm, one is looked inside the room with the Chest so you could just Hand Axe him over the wall if you really want to and the other one you could just have Eirika face him and Garcia kills the wall with a Hand Axe for example. The other Fighters have Hand Axes which have about 50 hit on him and he has time to use a vulnerary unless you're playing with Eirika and Garcia only or something, even then if he gets hit by like 4 50's well I mean shit happens I guess.

On 06/12/2017 at 5:50 PM, Reality said:

Both Artur and Eiraka!Saleh technically don't hit A staves naturally- the LTC is only able to use them because they are given almost ALL of the nonessential Dance turns from Tethys  

I admit it was a bit overzealous of me saying that they have 0 problems, naturally they won't hit A Staves that is true but if you want them to reach A Staves by chapter 16 then you can do it without too much trouble as long as you are diligent about using a Staff every turn and having Tethys refresh them whenever she isn't doing something more immediately important, that's what I meant by that though I see how it probably didn't come across that way.

On 06/12/2017 at 8:33 PM, Hawk King said:

The thing is that if Seth prevents Franz from ever becoming anything special then Garcia doesn't have a chance in hell of doing anything worthwhile. However on an optimal LTC run, it is best to use Seth basically only for boss kills or anytime that it is absolutely necessary. Overusing Seth in the beginning can actually cause for a lower total turncount than a Sethless LTC run can achieve. It is perfectly possible to make it to Chapter 8 with Seth having gained 4+ Lvs and both Franz and Vanessa at Lv 10 or higher. Garcia isn't doing squat in this scenario. Hell, Eirika can even solo the first 8 Chapters pretty well. Garcia really doesn't do a whole lot even when the team composition is limited. His greatest contribution is probably helping to break walls in Chapter 3. He won't be fast enough to double and secure 1RKO's so he will just clog up the frontlines if you try to have him lead the way for Eirika.  Gerik can contribute regardless of team composition and he will never be a liability. The difference between Garcia and Gerik is that Garcia is completely unable to do anything worthwhile and Gerik is able to do things, but he just isn't necessary to do them.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that there's a big difference in a tier list concerning an absolute LTC that uses Seth and a playing efficiently but using who you want kind of deal and I'm treating it more from the perspective of the latter. I'll agree totally that Garcia is almost completely useless in the former and I would rate somebody like Dozla above him in that regard because Dozla can be useful for Peak walking in chapter 11 for example which is more than Garcia is going to do. To give another example Gilliam is almost completely worthless if you're using Franz because he won't get the Knights Crest so he'll be a Knight forever. In the sense of the latter though I don't agree that his contribution is limited to breaking walls I still think he's one of your better combat units for early game at least. You say that Gerik will never be a liability which I agree with but that to me is kind of how I see Garcia he's just a unit that's there and does his thing without ever really needing any special attention, he's never the focus of the team that's true except for maybe Chapter 4 if you aren't using Seth, Vanessa or Franz but he's never a hindrance I feel. On the subject of Eirika I think actually I'll change my mind and keep Ephraim!Eirika above Garcia because as you say she can more or less solo the first 8 chapters fairly well and she's still the same unit as on her own route during that time, plus she can still be good late game with Sieglinde.

On the subject of an optimal LTC I'm sceptical you can get both Franz and Vanessa to level 10 whilst also using Seth by Chapter 8 that sounds really surprising to me. One or the other I have no doubt but both? I'll play through quickly when I feel like it, perhaps you're right or if you have a play-through or something proving it I'd like to see it. Also concerning this is it even worth giving Franz experience? My instinct would be to give every bit of it that I could manage to Vanessa, I can't think of anything that having a trained Franz would help with compared to having a better Vanessa and just letting Franz or someone else even pick up the scraps. If you're right about getting Vanessa and Franz to level 10 wouldn't it be better to have say a level 13 or 14 Vanessa? If you need more combat units for the rout maps wouldn't feeding Forde or Kyle some kills and promoting them at 10/1 suffice, or Tana even seeing as she'd be better for the desert than the Cavaliers?

16 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Lute and Artur are no dodgetank. 30-40% hitrates sure seem low, but abysmally low? No. Every angelic robe in this game should be used on your main fliers. Dracoshield does help their durability but how much does it help? They might be able to take one more hit but probably still get 3HKO'd by stronger enemies. I would rather use the Dracoshield on someone that is actually durable and has better combat ability.

I'd be surprised if it's even as high as 30-40% for a lot of enemies and I don't think they will get 3HKO'd either. If you mean when they've only just joined then yes running them out into the middle of Joshua's group for example will result in them getting their arses kicked without a doubt but you shouldn't really have a problem training them up until they can fight more units at a time.By the time you get to chapter 9 and on and especially after they promote they should have no problem running into groups of enemies. Giving them a Shield or a Robe (preferably a Robe imo) is fine, I'd give the Chapter 5 Dragonshield and Chapter 8 Angelic robe to Vanessa or Tana and give the Chapter 9 boosters to Lute or Artur, I don't think you really need to stack all of them on your flier. Also who has better combat ability? the Sages have some of the best 1-2 range combat in the game. 

16 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

I don't see how Vanessa can reach lv 10 in just 9 chapters. She sucks at killing stuff, is lance-locked when the game is filled with axe users and gets 2HKO'd by almost everything. Not to mention, she's usually busy transporting other units so there's no way she could get enough kills to reach level 10. Garcia, however, doesn't have those issues, he starts at higher levels, doesn't get 2HKO'd by anything, doesn't get destroyed by archers and can deal significant damage to most enemies. Franz and Vanessa have higher move so they can catch up with Seth, but what's the point? Seth would steal all the kills before they could even land a hit on anything.

As long as she steals kills and gets the majority of the experience in Chapter 4 she snowballs pretty easily, she does have to spend time ferrying units and she can't really go into a mob of enemies as well as your other units but she shouldn't have too much trouble. If Seth is being used though it will certainly be harder for her to get the experience she needs though not impossible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Sturm said:

I would still say he is decent after the route split as well, he contributes to the rout maps and he's good for doing utility stuff such as getting the Energy ring in Chapter 14 for example. I'll fully admit that being able to kill monsters is not really something to write home about and basically any half decent unit can do this but Garcia is just as good as most others, he's just a unit that get's stuff done without you really needing to ever worry about him I think. I wasn't trying to say he should be given credit for being able to use Garm per se I meant that it means he can contribute better than what his stats would suggest.

Are you talking about the room in chapter 14 Eirika with a half dozen enemies in there? The one with a bunch of mages (IIRC)? Also, I don't consider Garcia "a unit that gets stuff done without you really needing to ever worry about him", not with his low speed.

5 hours ago, Sturm said:

I've never thought that money was even remotely an issue in this game, I would have no problem buying 4 or 5 Elixirs without giving it a second thought truth be told.

You get 67500 or 65000 gold over the course of the game, depending on which route you took (or maybe it's 67500 either way). Note that almost half of that is from the chapters after the reunion. I dunno about you, but that's not exactly swimming in cash to the extent that I can afford to blow some of it on ridiculously overpriced consumable healing items. . .

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I've decided to make some small changes here and there based on the comments:

  • Swapped Neimi (E to D) and Ewan (D to E). Reason: Neimi can chip in earlygame, help break down walls etc. Ewan does none of these things.
  • Separated Cormag and Innes for the route split
  • Moved Duessel (Ephraim) down from A to B, and Duessel (Eirika) from B to C
  • Made some changes within the tiers, such as Ross, Lute and Gilliam (I couldn't justify raising/dropping these unit a whole tier, even if they are a bit more useful than initially assumed)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/12/2017 at 1:12 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

These are Revenants, AKA cannon fodder, we're talking about. Anyone can handle them other than Moulder and Ross. So this isn't much of a point in his favour.

Garcia at base can ORKO the Revenants while your other units struggle to do the same, and chapter 4 is route so ORKOing enemies is important. Franz can ORKO those revenants as well but Garcia is still a better option as he can take more hits thanks to his high HP. Anyone can kill those revenants but Garcia is better at killing them than anyone else.

On 10/12/2017 at 1:12 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I dunno about this - I think he has a chance of death if he blocks enough of those with his face (around 3-4)... and with his low speed, I wouldn't count on him dodging.

He might have a chance of death but he's still a safer option to do this than most.

On 10/12/2017 at 1:12 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Chapter 11 - Revenants galore. Whoopedy-do. Killing revenants easily isn't a feat worth bragging about...

Chapter 12  - IIRC, the reinforcements near the start are Mauthe Doogs and Gargoyles. Garcia might be able to handle the latter, but not so much the former.

Chapter 15. Pegs are easy for anyone to defeat. Again, not something I'm giving Garcia credit for being able to handle with ease.

Chapter 11: The revenants have a lot of HP so they're very hard to kill in one round. Garcia is one of the few units that is capable of ORKOing them.

Chapter 12: Garcia would need help to handle the Dogs. There's no one that could handle them without help anyways. Killing them is no hard task for Seth but he should be doing other things instead.

Chapter 15: Garcia uses axes so he gets WTA, he is also very bulky so he could take lots of hits from those pegs without dying. There's also a Berserker near the start, a trained Garcia should be tanky enough to survive one crit from him and can kill him with killing edge. And no, not everyone can easily kill those pegs, they use javelin so you will need someone that uses 1-2 range  weapon to kill them on enemy phase, your sword-locked units will have a lot of trouble here.

On 10/12/2017 at 5:36 AM, Sturm said:

I've never thought that money was even remotely an issue in this game, I would have no problem buying 4 or 5 Elixirs without giving it a second thought truth be told.

Or you could just buy some Recovers. They also heal your units to full health but cost less and have 5 times more uses than Elixir.

On 10/12/2017 at 5:36 AM, Sturm said:

the other one you could just have Eirika face him

And then Eirika gets hit and loses half of her HP, you will still need healing.

On 10/12/2017 at 5:36 AM, Sturm said:

I'd be surprised if it's even as high as 30-40% for a lot of enemies and I don't think they will get 3HKO'd either.

Assuming your Artur and Lute have 20 Speed and 20 Luck, they will have 60% avoid, against enemies that have 90% hit, they would face 30% chance of getting hit. Reaching both 20 Speed and 20 Luck, however, is virtually impossible for your Sages unless it's late game, and late-game has a lot of promoted enemies who hit very hard and have higher hitrates than just 90%.

On 10/12/2017 at 5:36 AM, Sturm said:

Also who has better combat ability? the Sages have some of the best 1-2 range combat in the game.

Franz, Kyle, Forde, etc. I maybe wrong if I say the Cavaliers have better combat ability but overall, they're still better. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Garcia at base can ORKO the Revenants while your other units struggle to do the same, and chapter 4 is route so ORKOing enemies is important. Franz can ORKO those revenants as well but Garcia is still a better option as he can take more hits thanks to his high HP. Anyone can kill those revenants but Garcia is better at killing them than anyone else.

Which I find it hard to care about because they're blooming revenants - anyone can annihilate them effortlessly, unless they can't attack.

2 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

He might have a chance of death but he's still a safer option to do this than most.

Fair enough. But I don't see Garcia one-rounding them without low rolls on the enemy's part unless he's like level 12 or something... which is kinda overleveled for that point in the game.

2 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Chapter 11: The revenants have a lot of HP so they're very hard to kill in one round. Garcia is one of the few units that is capable of ORKOing them.

Chapter 12: Garcia would need help to handle the Dogs. There's no one that could handle them without help anyways. Killing them is no hard task for Seth but he should be doing other things instead.

Chapter 15: Garcia uses axes so he gets WTA, he is also very bulky so he could take lots of hits from those pegs without dying. There's also a Berserker near the start, a trained Garcia should be tanky enough to survive one crit from him and can kill him with killing edge. And no, not everyone can easily kill those pegs, they use javelin so you will need someone that uses 1-2 range  weapon to kill them on enemy phase, your sword-locked units will have a lot of trouble here.

Chapter 11: See my first point, because it applies here as well.

Chapter 12: My point was that Garcia gets doubled up on by the dogs, so he wants nothing to do with them.

Chapter 15. Berserkers are best left to fast swordies, not slowpokes like Garcia. Also, while Garcia might not get instagibbed by the worst case scenario, you better either pray that everything else misses or that that was the last enemy that could attack him, or else he's a dead duck.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/9/2017 at 5:36 PM, Sturm said:

On the subject of an optimal LTC I'm sceptical you can get both Franz and Vanessa to level 10 whilst also using Seth by Chapter 8 that sounds really surprising to me. One or the other I have no doubt but both? I'll play through quickly when I feel like it, perhaps you're right or if you have a play-through or something proving it I'd like to see it. Also concerning this is it even worth giving Franz experience? My instinct would be to give every bit of it that I could manage to Vanessa, I can't think of anything that having a trained Franz would help with compared to having a better Vanessa and just letting Franz or someone else even pick up the scraps. If you're right about getting Vanessa and Franz to level 10 wouldn't it be better to have say a level 13 or 14 Vanessa? If you need more combat units for the rout maps wouldn't feeding Forde or Kyle some kills and promoting them at 10/1 suffice, or Tana even seeing as she'd be better for the desert than the Cavaliers?

I personally tested the Exp thresholds in the early game and theory crafted an optimal LTC playthough with another user here several years back. General Horace then apparently read my mind and did an actual LTC run along with videos of every chapter. You should search for them, he is a great LTC player. There are a few things I would do slightly different to maximize Exp gains, but they ultimately don't make any difference. Certain stat rigging is necessary for achieving stat thresholds, but not only is it possible to get Franz and Nessie to Lv 10 by the start of Chapter 8, it is neccessary in order to clear Chapter 8 while getting the Elysian Whip in 5 turns as Franz must be promoted. Nessie and Seth need to have a combined STR of 30 in order to break the wall with 1 silver lance and 1 javelin swing. And Nessie needs a bunch of STR for the Chapter 7 clear anyway.

Kyle and Forde are going to be way behind Franz at that point and Franz's lower starting Lv allows him to potentially have much higher stats.

Seriously, check out Horace's LTC playthrough. The total turncount is something like 67-70. Eirika route.

On 12/9/2017 at 12:41 AM, SpaceSamurai said:

Lute and Artur are no dodgetank. 30-40% hitrates sure seem low, but abysmally low? No. Every angelic robe in this game should be used on your main fliers. Dracoshield does help their durability but how much does it help? They might be able to take one more hit but probably still get 3HKO'd by stronger enemies. I would rather use the Dracoshield on someone that is actually durable and has better combat ability.

Fe8 uses 2 rns to check for hits. The true hit on 30-40% is like 20-30% As far as resource usage goes, you should only give them if a unit needs them. Our main flyer will get an over inflated Lv very quickly and will have more than enough stats to not need every stat booster.

I don't see how Vanessa can reach lv 10 in just 9 chapters. She sucks at killing stuff, is lance-locked when the game is filled with axe users and gets 2HKO'd by almost everything. Not to mention, she's usually busy transporting other units so there's no way she could get enough kills to reach level 10. Garcia, however, doesn't have those issues, he starts at higher levels, doesn't get 2HKO'd by anything, doesn't get destroyed by archers and can deal significant damage to most enemies. Franz and Vanessa have higher move so they can catch up with Seth, but what's the point? Seth would steal all the kills before they could even land a hit on anything.

Feeding every single kill to Seth results in a worse turncount later on. It is extremely easy to get Vanessa Exp. You are confusing this game with other FEs. The concentration of Axe enemies isn't high at all. Aside from Chapter 2 and 3 - Chapter 4 has monsters, Chapter 5 tons of loldiers, Chapter 6 mostly cavs and mercs Chapter 7 loldiers, cavs and mages. Chapter 8 ZERO? axes I think. Tirado has hand axes.

Chapter 4: Garcia is one of the best units to handle the zombie reinforcement or the revevant reinforcement while Seth is killing everything on the other side of the bridge.

literally anyone with 4 Spd can do this. Even Gilliam or Ross if they gain 1 Spd. Franz is actually the best because he gets really good if he gets EXP.

Chapter 8: Garcia can kill the Knights in the chest room to clear the path for your other units. He is bulky enough to take hits from the knights and can even ORKO them with steel axes.

 Anyone can kill the knights, he is reliable but so is Seth Franz and Nessie. Garcia can't move far enough in LTC to get there. Seth or newly promoted Franz is getting these kills.

Chapter 9( Eirika's route) : Seth should be handling the southern part of the map. So Garcia along with your other units is neccesary to handle the rest of the map.

Low movement. He gets left behing after turn 2.

Chapter 11, 12, 15 (Eirika) : Leave Garcia at his starting position and wait until the reinforcement appears to kill them. High movement is unnecessary here. You will need someone with high HP to take hits and strong enough to kill enemies so Garcia is perfect for this job.

Eirika(when not seizing), Joshua, Gilliam, Gerik, and others can do this. Healers and vulneraries exist for a reason.

Garcia's contribution is obviously much more than just breaking walls in chapter 3.

Obviously.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/11/2017 at 1:04 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Which I find it hard to care about because they're blooming revenants - anyone can annihilate them effortlessly, unless they can't attack.

Fair enough. But I don't see Garcia one-rounding them without low rolls on the enemy's part unless he's like level 12 or something... which is kinda overleveled for that point in the game.

Chapter 11: See my first point, because it applies here as well.

Chapter 12: My point was that Garcia gets doubled up on by the dogs, so he wants nothing to do with them.

Chapter 15. Berserkers are best left to fast swordies, not slowpokes like Garcia. Also, while Garcia might not get instagibbed by the worst case scenario, you better either pray that everything else misses or that that was the last enemy that could attack him, or else he's a dead duck.

What exactly are you advocating here on Garcia, again?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Seriously, check out Horace's LTC playthrough. The total turncount is something like 67-70. Eirika route.

It is sadly not available anymore due to his account being hacked and all of the videos on it being deleted. =(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Refa said:

It is sadly not available anymore due to his account being hacked and all of the videos on it being deleted. =(

Seriously?? That really sucks.

I was going to watch that playthrough again too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/12/2017 at 3:19 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Are you talking about the room in chapter 14 Eirika with a half dozen enemies in there? The one with a bunch of mages (IIRC)? Also, I don't consider Garcia "a unit that gets stuff done without you really needing to ever worry about him", not with his low speed.

Yep, that's the room!

On 10/12/2017 at 3:19 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You get 67500 or 65000 gold over the course of the game, depending on which route you took (or maybe it's 67500 either way). Note that almost half of that is from the chapters after the reunion. I dunno about you, but that's not exactly swimming in cash to the extent that I can afford to blow some of it on ridiculously overpriced consumable healing items. . .

I'm surprised it's even that much money, but yes, personally I would have no problem spending a good amount of it on Elixirs plus you also get quite a few characters who join with them.

On 10/12/2017 at 10:20 AM, Mariode said:

So I've decided to make some small changes here and there based on the comments:

  • Swapped Neimi (E to D) and Ewan (D to E). Reason: Neimi can chip in earlygame, help break down walls etc. Ewan does none of these things.
  • Separated Cormag and Innes for the route split
  • Moved Duessel (Ephraim) down from A to B, and Duessel (Eirika) from B to C
  • Made some changes within the tiers, such as Ross, Lute and Gilliam (I couldn't justify raising/dropping these unit a whole tier, even if they are a bit more useful than initially assumed)

Innes is way too high, especially on Ephraim's route, both Eirika and Saleh are better at handling their part of the map in the Desert, I really don't see how he does anything at all on Ephraim's route except maybe kill eggs and base Neimi could pretty much do that just as well as he could, Ephraim!Innes is D tier at best I think. Seriously, I know I'm a fan of Garcia but there's no way that Ephraim!Innes should be above Garcia, surely.

When you say made changes to Ross, Lute and Gilliam did you move them up or down I'm sorry but my memory is terrible so I can't remember where they were before.

On 11/12/2017 at 5:56 AM, SpaceSamurai said:

Or you could just buy some Recovers. They also heal your units to full health but cost less and have 5 times more uses than Elixir.

I could, but then I'd need someone to use the Recover, Elixirs can be used by people on themselves and as I said I've never thought that money was much of an issue, maybe that's just me.

On 11/12/2017 at 5:56 AM, SpaceSamurai said:

And then Eirika gets hit and loses half of her HP, you will still need healing.

I mean I guess she might get hit, it's much more likely that she doesn't though.

On 11/12/2017 at 5:56 AM, SpaceSamurai said:

Assuming your Artur and Lute have 20 Speed and 20 Luck, they will have 60% avoid, against enemies that have 90% hit, they would face 30% chance of getting hit. Reaching both 20 Speed and 20 Luck, however, is virtually impossible for your Sages unless it's late game, and late-game has a lot of promoted enemies who hit very hard and have higher hitrates than just 90%.

The thing is that there are Mountains and Forts and Forests etc. that will reduce these 30-40% hit rates down to somewhere in the 10-20% range which is more than enough for them to take a bunch of enemies without much fear. You would need to be able to expose them to about 20 enemies for them to have a decent chance of dying and on most turns only about 5-6 enemies at most will be in range to attack, even if they are not benefiting from terrain their chance of death is still pretty low.

On 11/12/2017 at 5:56 AM, SpaceSamurai said:

Franz, Kyle, Forde, etc. I maybe wrong if I say the Cavaliers have better combat ability but overall, they're still better. 

Level 1 Saleh has 26 attack with an Elfire and enough Speed to double basically everything except for Myrmidons and Mercenaries and Doogs which he might OHKO I'm not sure but he's probably close. 20/1 Forde has 19 attack with a Javelin, Kyle has 23 attack and Franz has 21 attack and reaching 20/1 is not going to happen anyway. Lute and Artur will be similar if not stronger than Saleh if they've been trained and they attack resistance which the majority of enemies have less of than defence, so I would say that Sages have better 1-2 range combat.

On 12/12/2017 at 1:46 PM, Hawk King said:

I personally tested the Exp thresholds in the early game and theory crafted an optimal LTC playthough with another user here several years back. General Horace then apparently read my mind and did an actual LTC run along with videos of every chapter. You should search for them, he is a great LTC player. There are a few things I would do slightly different to maximize Exp gains, but they ultimately don't make any difference. Certain stat rigging is necessary for achieving stat thresholds, but not only is it possible to get Franz and Nessie to Lv 10 by the start of Chapter 8, it is neccessary in order to clear Chapter 8 while getting the Elysian Whip in 5 turns as Franz must be promoted. Nessie and Seth need to have a combined STR of 30 in order to break the wall with 1 silver lance and 1 javelin swing. And Nessie needs a bunch of STR for the Chapter 7 clear anyway.

Kyle and Forde are going to be way behind Franz at that point and Franz's lower starting Lv allows him to potentially have much higher stats.

Seriously, check out Horace's LTC playthrough. The total turncount is something like 67-70. Eirika route.

I was thinking from the perspective of not having ridiculous stats on them and that you would be better off having higher stats on Vanessa for the early route split chapters but obviously you would just rig their stats in an optimal LTC so I guess that it's a moot point in that regard. I guess it's probably feasible to get them to level 10 if you rig Strength, Speed, Defence every level for the first few levels at least so they can just run in without any fear, maybe Vanessa or Franz could also kill some of the bosses for some extra experience once they got a few levels or does Seth kill them all? It's a great shame about the videos being lost I would have liked to see it, I did find the thread with the turn-counts though so maybe I'll try matching them and see what levels I can get out of them. Also you could totally 3-turn chapter 2 with Vanessa getting 4 slim lance crits on the boss and his friend while they were still on the mountain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sturm said:

Also you could totally 3-turn chapter 2 with Vanessa getting 4 slim lance crits on the boss and his friend while they were still on the mountain.

There is a fine line for me with LTC strats, and this one is far beyond that line. LOL.

2 hours ago, Sturm said:

I was thinking from the perspective of not having ridiculous stats on them and that you would be better off having higher stats on Vanessa for the early route split chapters but obviously you would just rig their stats in an optimal LTC so I guess that it's a moot point in that regard. I guess it's probably feasible to get them to level 10 if you rig Strength, Speed, Defence every level for the first few levels at least so they can just run in without any fear, maybe Vanessa or Franz could also kill some of the bosses for some extra experience once they got a few levels or does Seth kill them all? It's a great shame about the videos being lost I would have liked to see it, I did find the thread with the turn-counts though so maybe I'll try matching them and see what levels I can get out of them.

Stat rigging isn't completely mandatory. The most important stat rigging is having Nessie and Seth with a combined 30 Str for Chapter 8. As a result Nessie will have the necessary Str for the Chapter 7 clear. I believe average or slightly above average stats will work for every chapter before then. I did my test run on an actual cartridge after all. Franz doesn't need too much rigging.

Horace fed most boss kills to Seth, but it is possible to have Eirika get the Prologue boss kill (burn like 100 ish RNs), and it is possible to feed the Chapter 1 boss to Franz.

If you compare Horace's turncount to DonDon's 0% growths turncounts you will see how much of a difference having extra stats really makes. Early on, it isn't too much of a difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks great to me! 

I know Myrrh joins late, but I still feel like should be placed a TON higher; definitely A-Tier. She can solo any Monster in the game from that point on.

I also feel like the fliers and bishops should be placed a little higher, as well as Innes, Forde, Duessel and Garcia being lower; and Colm being a bit higher.

I don't really know how good Duessel and Saleh are; so I still have more to learn about the game.

But, that's how I play. You can really play FE in anyway you want, all units can be considered "good". Except for Marisa

Edited by Corncake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...