Jump to content
BoringBoi

How Should IS Fix the Power Creep?

Recommended Posts

With the release of the latest banner, many have concluded that the inevitable "Power Creep" is upon us.

With the release of (only) 3 new units, several older units have become outclassed immediately (according to others).

Even if some people don't agree with this being considered a "Power Creep already, it's hard to deny that this is going to be a big problem sooner or later based off of the direction that new units are heading.

So... How should Intelligent Systems fix "Power Creep"? Is there even a way to solve it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New characters coming in with "optimal" stats do not bother me because I accept the fact that some characters will be better than others. However, typically favoritism will win the day when trying to get a character to work. For example, I really like Fir and Odin. They may be low tier units, but I have fun using them with a custom build. Sure, I need to break out the main team for the harder content, but I can casually enjoy playing everything else.

As for skills, for the most part they seem somewhat reasonable. Yes, skills such as Drives are seen as superior to Spurs because one extra range is worth the stat loss, but so far I do not have a major problem with any of the newly implemented skills. My only concern is that they are not widely available, which hurts build composition. This sucks for people like myself who enjoy making builds for their favorite characters and never getting the SI for them.

However, my one main complaint still remains the implementation of Slaying Weapons. I can see them as a balancing tool since Killer Weapons are basically crap when compared to Pref weapons and some of the newly implemented ones, and I do not mind balancing FEH. They way they went about it bothers me though since Slaying Weapons are a direct upgrade from Killer Weapons, which is why I wonder why not just replace Killer Weapons with Slaying Weapons. I know "Slaying Weapons" can replace Killing Weapons via Skill Inheritance, but that is relying on RNG for a direct upgrade.

To solve my gripe with FEH, it is to simply add in a system that allows Killer Weapons to be upgraded into Slayer Weapons (and for any other "upgrades" that may come down the line). Then I will be content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There isn't a fix. Making new characters stand out is how they get people to care about them and want to pull for them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, BoringBoi said:

With the release of the latest banner, many have concluded that the inevitable "Power Creep" is upon us.

With the release of (only) 3 new units, several older units have become outclassed immediately (according to others).

Even if some people don't agree with this being considered a "Power Creep already, it's hard to deny that this is going to be a big problem sooner or later based off of the direction that new units are heading.

So... How should Intelligent Systems fix "Power Creep"? Is there even a way to solve it?

Buff existing units.

I believe that was actually brought up in an interview, they said they were looking into a way to make weaker units (like Laslow) usable again.

But in the short term, their solution is to keep all the broken skills and such locked by being uninheritable, such as CYL weapons, Tana's Lance, Elinicia's Sword, Blessing skills, and now Eclipse.

Similarly, you'll note they made it so Reinhardt and Bow Lyn can't get wrath (that would have broken the game)

Edited by dragonlordsd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Othin said:

There isn't a fix. Making new characters stand out is how they get people to care about them and want to pull for them.

During an interview, IS said that they're working on a way to fix the problem and that they are aware of it.

11 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Should they? This is the actual question.

At the moment, no. Many people say that today's banner is the start of the "Power Creep" era of units, but I think it's too early to tell.

There will always be units that are preferred over others for their battle prowess. It's just a matter of how long that character will stay in the spotlight.

For example, I think that there will be a unit in the future that will be able to shut down Brave Lyn effectively. Unlike Reinhardt (who is used so much for his weapon and overall roll), what makes Brave Lyn so great is her stats and her B ability. As of now, taking Brave Lyn down isn't hard if you have the right melee units for it. However, I predict (let's put this on record) that a unit will be able to completely counter Lyn and make her lose the spotlight. She'll always be a "great" unit, but it's only a matter of time until she loses her viability (to a certain degree). Look at Takumi, he was the best unit at launch, but fell from his throne thanks to new game mechanics. While I don't think this will be Lyn's downfall, I'm just skeptical of her ability to remain one of the best units. 

So in short, when it comes to Power Creep, all we can do is Blame Takumi go along with the changing meta and rely on IS to balance out what needs balancing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another big thing they're doing to combat creep is making sure to give out lots of freebies.

For example, the CYL units were extremely broken, but that's not a big deal if you're guaranteed to get whichever one you want for free.

Elincia is extremely nasty, but we're also getting essentially a free Hector from the Black Knight, so it's not as big of a deal as it would be otherwise.

Additionally, there's the support system, which automatically boosts the stats of all your units, but only for you. Enemies can't take advantage of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, dragonlordsd said:

Another big thing they're doing to combat creep is making sure to give out lots of freebies.

For example, the CYL units were extremely broken, but that's not a big deal if you're guaranteed to get whichever one you want for free.

Elincia is extremely nasty, but we're also getting essentially a free Hector from the Black Knight, so it's not as big of a deal as it would be otherwise.

Additionally, there's the support system, which automatically boosts the stats of all your units, but only for you. Enemies can't take advantage of it.

Also Elincia literally came out right after everyone had immediate and free access to one of the game's best archers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, r_n said:

Also Elincia literally came out right after everyone had immediate and free access to one of the game's best archers

Exactly. That was my first thought when I saw her:

"Good thing they gave out a free brave Lyn, otherwise people will get pissed very fast. (dat galeforce... no -5 penalty...)"

Edited by dragonlordsd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Buff existing units.

As far as this goes, there are a few units that I feel really deserve some buffing because they could change the meta for the better.

I've made a list of possible units that could use this, assuming they go the route of simply changing stats (which kind of seems odd).

  • Selena - If IS could exchange some of her defenses for a little more attack, she could be a good balanced unit. Her only problem now is that her attack is so low that she can only effectively hurt green units (which would be a good role role on its own, but there aren't enough green units for this to be a role worth dedicating a spot to).
  • Any Unit That Suffers From Low Attack Stat (That Actually Needs it) -  This would be people like Odin. In today's meta, a unit HAS to deal a substantial amount of damage to truly be decent at best.
  • Healers and Most Daggers - If IS could fix the viability of these units, I believe that it could change the meta for the better.
  • Units That Lack Speed - Units like Leo and Laslow. Leo can be good, with enough buffs, but is mediocre otherwise. If the meta wasn't so reliant on speed (or Brave weapons) then these units would be good enough, but that's not the case.

Honestly, I don't see how changing stats would be an easy fix, but I'm sure IS has something in mind. Most of the problems stem from the meta, not the units themselves.

While typing this, I see that many of you are pointing out very viable points in regards to everything.

As such, the question should now be... Does it need a change (like Vaximillian said)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing about power creep in this game is that it can only occur in one of three ways:

  1. A unique skill is given to a unit that makes it better than its alternatives.
  2. A character is implemented with more min-maxed stats than its alternatives.
  3. A skill is implemented that increases the effectiveness of a group of units.

The first has always been in the game and isn't something that can really be done anything about. Take a look at Alphonse, Chrom, and Laslow, all three of whom have virtually the same stat lines. However, Alfonse and Chrom have access to unique weapons, meaning Laslow is never going to be better than them (assuming no merges) except on the occasion when Laslow is a bonus unit and Alfonse and Chrom are not. The only way I can think of to fix this issue is to introduce skills that activate when specific stats are lower than your opponent's.

The second is an inevitability. I consider the fact that there isn't a unit with a 34+/34+ offensive spread for every class a gap for those classes waiting to be filled. I see new units with that stat spread to be filling the gap instead of raising the ceiling.

The third is also an inevitability, but it's one that doesn't render old units obsolete. All characters of the movement types or weapon types that can learn a skill benefit from the skill being added. Unlike other games where "skills" are typically always locked to characters, Skill Inheritance lets older characters keep up with all of the new content.

 

Honestly, I don't see anything that really needs changing that cannot already be handled by the current system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There isnt a power creep... the Classes have a max stat point bottleneck across all classes. The spread on those Characters is just different. Only the Weapons are slightly better.
I dont understand the problem. Everyone was crying because of Reinhardt. Now that we are getting decent Infantery units its suddenly a powercreep?!

I rather have slight progression then no progression at all! And the gap between the new units in this banner and the older one is small.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

The thing about power creep in this game is that it can only occur in one of three ways:

  1. A unique skill is given to a unit that makes it better than its alternatives.
  2. A character is implemented with more min-maxed stats than its alternatives.
  3. A skill is implemented that increases the effectiveness of a group of units.

The first has always been in the game and isn't something that can really be done anything about. Take a look at Alphonse, Chrom, and Laslow, all three of whom have virtually the same stat lines. However, Alfonse and Chrom have access to unique weapons, meaning Laslow is never going to be better than them (assuming no merges) except on the occasion when Laslow is a bonus unit and Alfonse and Chrom are not. The only way I can think of to fix this issue is to introduce skills that activate when specific stats are lower than your opponent's.

The second is an inevitability. I consider the fact that there isn't a unit with a 34+/34+ offensive spread for every class a gap for those classes waiting to be filled. I see new units with that stat spread to be filling the gap instead of raising the ceiling.

The third is also an inevitability, but it's one that doesn't render old units obsolete. All characters of the movement types or weapon types that can learn a skill benefit from the skill being added. Unlike other games where "skills" are typically always locked to characters, Skill Inheritance lets older characters keep up with all of the new content.

 

Honestly, I don't see anything that really needs changing that cannot already be handled by the current system.

Also adding to #2 being inevitable is because they are currently (& thankfully!) sticking to their BST guidlines they've had since the start. The only exceptions, I think, have been CYL Ike & Lyn and that's a 2 point (?) boon due to being the most popular characters. There's only so many ways to rearrange the stats before you land on optimization.

I think the power creep conversation will be more pertinent if they start upping the BSTs on a larger scale

Elincia's stat spread isn't even that different from cordelia and flying needed stronger red units anyway. May as well make the popular(ish?) one with the unique brave weapon good out of the box, fill that niche like you said

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, BoringBoi said:

Honestly, I don't see how changing stats would be an easy fix, but I'm sure IS has something in mind. Most of the problems stem from the meta, not the units themselves.

The meta is determined by the available spread of character stats and skills. Saying that the meta is the source of the problems is identical to saying that the pool of characters is the source of the problems. You don't create a meta and then fit characters to it, you create characters and the meta naturally forms based on mathematical optimization.

 

1 minute ago, r_n said:

The only exceptions, I think, have been CYL Ike & Lyn and that's a 2 point (?) boon due to being the most popular characters.

CYL first place winners have +10 to their growth rate total, which is really no more or less arbitrary than any other class modifier. That's the only difference they have with other units in their class. It still follows the rules, albeit doing so by adding a new class modifier to the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At best I'd say that some skills should be more accessible in the near future to ensure almost any unit can caught up to the new fancy skillsets we're getting (with exceptions of course, things like DC and LnD should remain rare and expensive because they are premier skills but things like Infantry Pulse, Slayer weapons, maybe Distant/Close defense need to be a bit easier to get in order to even the playing field).

Min/Max stat spreads are something that's going to keep going, and in certain ways Summoner support exists to give units with less than ideal spreads a fighting chance with the flat +5/+2/+2/+2/+2 boost it gives, so you can always use your favorites without problem even if they're not that good. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The meta is determined by the available spread of character stats and skills. Saying that the meta is the source of the problems is identical to saying that the pool of characters is the source of the problems. You don't create a meta and then fit characters to it, you create characters and the meta naturally forms based on mathematical optimization.

That's basically what I tried to say, but the words didn't exactly come out that way.

However, I do think that it's okay to add characters that round out the meta and make it as balanced as it can get. 

Kind of like how we got Brave Lyn which counters Elincia. IS probably knew that Elincia would be formidable, which created Brave Lyn. The meta will never be completely balanced, but the fact that IS is aware of how one characters affects the meta makes it so that they can plan their units in relation to one another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At first I thought so, too. Thinking that elincia is overpowered etc. But compare her with cordelia. 

Elincia

Middle     35    34    36    24   27

Cordelia

Middle     40    35    35    22    25

 

The difference is pretty much non existent. Her weapon has an advantage just -2spd compared to the usual -5spd. Thats all pretty subtle.

 

She is just better in comparison to other red flyers. Thats it. But not much better, if at all, than cordelia who has been with us from the beginning.we just got a great blue flyer early on and a great red flyer half a year later.

 

Edited by Prince Endriu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Prince Endriu said:

The difference is pretty much non existent. Her weapon has an advantage just -2spd compared to the usual -5spd. Thats all pretty subtle.

Amiti is +3 Atk and +3 Spd over Brave Sword+. That's huge considering Elincia has the same offensive stat distribution as Tana. It's basically a permanent Spur Atk/Spd 2.

Edited by Ice Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Amiti is +3 Atk and +3 Spd over Brave Sword+. That's huge considering Elincia has the same offensive stat distribution as Tana. It's basically a permanent Spur Atk/Spd 2.

Hmmm...

 

So its just the weapon then that brings that powercreep.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Hilda said:

There isnt a power creep... the Classes have a max stat point bottleneck across all classes. The spread on those Characters is just different. Only the Weapons are slightly better.
I dont understand the problem. Everyone was crying because of Reinhardt. Now that we are getting decent Infantery units its suddenly a powercreep?!

I rather have slight progression then no progression at all! And the gap between the new units in this banner and the older one is small.

These are pretty much my thoughts. When they add offensively oriented units that have poor defenses, the threshold for getting in a kill becomes lower (especially if the offensive units are commonly used), so "lesser" units remain usable. Additionally, newer skills have/can/will be added which can give a more balanced unit more utility (the ploys are examples of this).

The only unit in the game I'd say is utterly outclassed by another unit is Laslow, by Gray. They have the exact same stats, with Gray having 5 more Spd but 1 less HP. They really ought to change the stats on one of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, BoringBoi said:

For example, I think that there will be a unit in the future that will be able to shut down Brave Lyn effectively.

It's actually already here, and it's none other that Henry. The problem is that he shuts down Brave Lyn and other archers/daggers... and that's it. And even for that he needs Earth Boost and QR to do so. He can't deal with anyone else, except some occasional low-res/spd greens.

Well there is one another thing they could do, and that is banning certain characters from arena. Except it will blow up the powder keg underneath the community, so I doubt they will do that.

4 minutes ago, Prince Endriu said:

At first I thought so, too. Thinking that elincia is overpowered etc. But compare her with cordelia. 

Elincia

Middle     35    34    36    24   27

Cordelia

Middle     40    35    35    22    25

 

The difference is pretty much non existent. Her weapon has an advantage just -2spd compared to the usual -5spd. Thats all pretty subtle.

 

She is just better in comparison to other red flyers. Thats it. But not much better, if at all, than cordelia who has been with us from the beginning.

You know, I'm looking at that and... Elincia is actually better everywhere except HP (which is not as important). She is faster, (+4 compared to Brave Lance+ Cordelia), hits harder (+2), and has both higher Def (+2) and Higher Res (+2). That's pretty PowerCreepy to say the least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

It's actually already here, and it's none other that Henry. The problem is that he shuts down Brave Lyn and other archers/daggers... and that's it. And even for that he needs Earth Boost and QR to do so. He can't deal with anyone else, except some occasional low-res/spd greens.

Well there is one another thing they could do, and that is banning certain characters from arena. Except it will blow up the powder keg underneath the community, so I doubt they will do that.

You know, I'm looking at that and... Elincia is actually better everywhere except HP (which is not as important). She is faster, (+4 compared to Brave Lance+ Cordelia), hits harder (+2), and has both higher Def (+2) and Higher Res (+2). That's pretty PowerCreepy to say the least.

I dont know anymore! ?????

At first I thought she is the I though she might not.  In the end it turns out she is.

What can I say? Glad to have picked her up then! ☺

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...