How Should IS Fix the Power Creep?

[Arcanite]

3 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

I get the why, but Ike isn't really special stat wise as far as I can tell. Like I said, even bunny Chrom has a higher stat total, just a weaker weapon. Don't get me wrong, I don't like that they supposedly beefed the winners just because they were winners, but I'm not seeing it in Ike's stats.

It's only brave Ike, not regular Ike

Are we talking about Brave Ike or regular Ike?

[Arthur97]

1 minute ago, Bartozio said:

Tobin has a more balanced stat spread and is considered a trainee unit. There's several units like that in the game.

Spring Chrom has lower total amount of stats (3 points less), although his natural A-skill gives him 4 extra stat points. Counting extra stat points  from skills and weapons is kind of weird, since while it might seem Chrom has better stats, he uses his A-slot to get better points, while Ike has a different (better) skill there.

The same applies for CYL Lucina. Yes, she gets extra speed from her weapon, but all CYL weapons have two effects. One of those for Lucina is extra speed. Ike's weapon also gets two effects, they just don't affect his stats.

i"m not denying he's better than Tobin. And I know about Brave Lucina's weapon bonus (it's defense by the way, not speed), in fact, Ike is the only one who doesn't get a +3 stat buff from his weapon. However, that's still counted toward their stats and all meaning Ike really doesn't seem overly buffed.

1 minute ago, Arcanite said:

It's only brave Ike, not regular Ike

Are we talking about Brave Ike or regular Ike?

Brave.

[Bartozio]

Just now, Arthur97 said:

i"m not denying he's better than Tobin. And I know about Brave Lucina's weapon bonus (it's defense by the way, not speed), in fact, Ike is the only one who doesn't get a +3 stat buff from his weapon. However, that's still counted toward their stats and all meaning Ike really doesn't seem overly buffed.

My point is: CYL Lucina needs the stat boost from her weapon to have a similar stat total as CYL Ike (she would still have two less points), while Ike's weapon gives the same amount of special effects. It basicly means Lucina's weapon has one cool effect while Ike's has two.

You either count stat buffs when comparing stats, in which case Ike's weapon has more perks, or you don't count it and Ike has more stat points then Lucina.

[Arthur97]

Just now, Bartozio said:

My point is: CYL Lucina needs the stat boost from her weapon to have a similar stat total as CYL Ike (she would still have two less points), while Ike's weapon gives the same amount of special effects. It basicly means Lucina's weapon has one cool effect while Ike's has two.

You either count stat buffs when comparing stats, in which case Ike's weapon has more perks, or you don't count it and Ike has more stat points then Lucina.

Yes, but Ike's weapon is unique among the Brave Heroes in that regard. Still, all things considered, the Brave Heroes (except maybe Lyn) seem to be built comparably. Of course, Roy and Lyn have horses so they are lower. Ike just doesn't seem OP to me. Neither do Roy or Lucina. Lyn is questionable, but I have a decent answer to her in Robin.

[Bartozio]

1 minute ago, Arthur97 said:

Yes, but Ike's weapon is unique among the Brave Heroes in that regard. Still, all things considered, the Brave Heroes (except maybe Lyn) seem to be built comparably. Of course, Roy and Lyn have horses so they are lower. Ike just doesn't seem OP to me. Neither do Roy or Lucina. Lyn is questionable, but I have a decent answer to her in Robin.

Well, you started of asking about inflated stats, but I'm just going to assume that part has been answered then...

It really depends on what you see as OP. CYL Lucina has one of the best offensive stat spreads, combined with a legendary weapon that helps buff her defence and boost the offence of allies. She's basicly one of the best support units out there, while also having great offence.

CYL Roy is now by far the best offensive sword cav, CYL Ike is a tanky axe user with a great personal weapon for the job (legendary killer axe + help in surviving brave weapons) and a bit more stats.

They all beat other units in their role, although I guess they're not straight up better then Reinhardt or anything...

[Junkhead]

I think they fucked up hard by completely shitting on Killers (a weapon that's actually really good, just super underutilsed). Just take them out of the game completely if you're just going to add these new "Slayer" type weapons. I was legitimately considering foddering someone for a Killer, until I just remembered Slayer Lance was coming out.

Elincia's the only real pink elephant in the room. A lot of this "Power creep" is flexible through Skill Inheritence, in which units can use a similiar skillset and be really competent. Elincia literally has an 11-Mt Brave with only 2 Spd penalty. You'd think that they give her stats that would compensate for that, like low Atk or Spd. But no, her offensive spread is one of the better ones in the game.

[LuxSpes]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

You can say that for a lot of things, though.

A friend of mine who has been playing since launch has no access to Raudhrblade due to never having pulled Tharja before (despite the fact that she is available as a 4-star pull) and even no access to Raudhrraven until very recently (despite the fact that Henry is available as a 3-star pull).

If you missed the Grand Hero Battles for Xander, Camus, and Ursula, you're basically SoL for them until their re-runs happen.

Bad luck and back timing happen, so availability will never not be an issue unless every skill is available from a non-time-limited free character, which is simply not going to happen.

Furthermore, the availability issue has nothing to do with power creep.

My comment was more in regards to how better skill availability could make the meta a bit more diverse than about how it could affect power creep. There's only so much build variety non whales can do when a large part of the passive skills are locked to 5* units and limited units. 

But with regards to your points, first, even though in both your friend's case and mine we suffered from bad luck, your friend has statically more chances of pulling Tharja in his next few pulls than I have of pulling Celica. If I understand how the game rolls unit and did my math right, Tharja has around a 3.22% chance of appearing once in a full summoning session on the Crimea banner while Celica only has 0.18% chance of appearing.

And as for your second point, while people who weren't playing the game for Xander's GHB currently have no access to a sword cav with built-in DC, anyone who was playing the game at the time and completed at least one version of his GHB were guaranteed a copy of him. This doesn't compare to a 5* exclusive unit since you can spend several hundred orbs sniping for a focus unit with no guarantee of even getting it. I do think GHB and TT units shouldn't have inheritable skills exclusive to them though. 

Giving every skill away for free is obviously not gonna happen, but reducing the number of skills that are only available on rare or no longer available units would probably have a positive effect on the variety of builds players can toy around with. 51% of the A passives and 45% of the C passives being locked to 5* units and limited release units seems like a bit too much to me. 

[Arcanite]

1 hour ago, Arthur97 said:

Neither do Roy

Lucina is definitely great, she may not be the best ever, but as a buffer who gives +6 speed to units within 2 spaces I can say for sure that she is impressive before even looking at stats

Roy though.... he can galeforce sweep teams. And as Bartozio said he's a great offensive sword cav. He's actually one of the best player phase sword units in the game now.

Ike on the other hand.... I'm not so sure. 

At least he's steady breath fodder :p

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, Soul~! said:

I think they fucked up hard by completely shitting on Killers (a weapon that's actually really good, just super underutilsed). Just take them out of the game completely if you're just going to add these new "Slayer" type weapons. I was legitimately considering foddering someone for a Killer, until I just remembered Slayer Lance was coming out.

Elincia's the only real pink elephant in the room. A lot of this "Power creep" is flexible through Skill Inheritence, in which units can use a similiar skillset and be really competent. Elincia literally has an 11-Mt Brave with only 2 Spd penalty. You'd think that they give her stats that would compensate for that, like low Atk or Spd. But no, her offensive spread is one of the better ones in the game.

I dont see the issue. Elincia is hardly OP compared to alot of other units in the game. She has stats that scream player phase unit with a weapon, meaning people will build her for optimal use with prolly Life and Death 3/Desperation, meaning she will die if you sniff at her in anyway or form. Her Def is crap and her Res isnt that good either. I mean 2 units of the Meta destroy her, and they have more range then her: Reinhardt and Brave Lyn. Not even gonna mention all the other units. Dire thunder is still far more OP then her Legendary Sword...

She is not Arena Defense material, so i really dont see the big point behind it. I would be rather flaged about Black Knight. The possibilitys for him aside from the shitty movement range are huge.
Slap Quick Riposte on him and you have a Vanilla Hector.
Give him additionally Steady Breath and you have a monster...

or

Give him Steady Breath and Wrath 3 together with Quickened Seal and enjoy Black Luna with +10 addtional dmg on whoever dares to attack you. In other words you one shot him or you die in that same turn. Luckily his Res is really shit.

[Hilda]

12 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Lucina is definitely great, she may not be the best ever, but as a buffer who gives +6 speed to units within 2 spaces I can say for sure that she is impressive before even looking at stats

Roy though.... he can galeforce sweep teams. And as Bartozio said he's a great offensive sword cav. He's actually one of the best player phase sword units in the game now.

Ike on the other hand.... I'm not so sure. 

At least he's steady breath fodder :p

Brave Ike is fantastic. Very excellent Enemy phase unit and my Arena Defense Wins are racking up with him Sonya Tana and Ninian as my Main Team.

[Arcanite]

15 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Brave Ike is fantastic. Very excellent Enemy phase unit and my Arena Defense Wins are racking up with him Sonya Tana and Ninian as my Main Team.

Gasp

A team with.... no red units!?!?!

[Junkhead]

16 minutes ago, Hilda said:

I dont see the issue. Elincia is hardly OP compared to alot of other units in the game. She has stats that scream player phase unit with a weapon, meaning people will build her for optimal use with prolly Life and Death 3/Desperation, meaning she will die if you sniff at her in anyway or form. Her Def is crap and her Res isnt that good either. I mean 2 units of the Meta destroy her, and they have more range then her: Reinhardt and Brave Lyn. Not even gonna mention all the other units. Dire thunder is still far more OP then her Legendary Sword...

She is not Arena Defense material, so i really dont see the big point behind it. I would be rather flaged about Black Knight. The possibilitys for him aside from the shitty movement range are huge.
Slap Quick Riposte on him and you have a Vanilla Hector.
Give him additionally Steady Breath and you have a monster...

or

Give him Steady Breath and Wrath 3 together with Quickened Seal and enjoy Black Luna with +10 addtional dmg on whoever dares to attack you. In other words you one shot him or you die in that same turn. Luckily his Res is really shit.

A great offense is one of the best defenses in this game, sadly. This is, of course, with Arena Defense on the side. You are very dangerous if you're capable of killing your opponent before they even get a chance to breathe. Not only does she pack Lucina-like offensive stats, but she also comes with Death Blow, but also with an 11 Mt Brave with only 2 Spd penalty. She completely outclases any other Brave user ever, whether it's be a stray but super strong 2HKO or even for Quad Mode. Something like Quad Luna with Desperation on top of being able to fly is just beyond ridiculous. It's not hard to get her out of the ceasefire with a refreshing unit, Reposition/Swap, or even both. The only thing that really saves her from not being broken is the fact she's "only" 2 Mov and isn't ranged. I do agree the other two are better, but I'd hardly call that a weakness on her part when they simply hard counter her.

I don't disagree on what you say on the Dark Knight, but at least 1 Mov isn't something you can exactly handwave. When you're fighting against it, it's one of the easier things to deal with because it allows you to do a ton of things until they catch up to you. We don't have that kind of luxury against ranged horses.

[Lord-Zero]

16 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

I don't disagree on what you say on the Dark Knight, but at least 1 Mov isn't something you can exactly handwave. When you're fighting against it, it's one of the easier things to deal with because it allows you to do a ton of things until they catch up to you. We don't have that kind of luxury against ranged horses.

Kiting him with Firesweep weapons and Draw Back/Hit and Run/Reposition to safety, a Windsweep/Phantom Speed build, etc. His poor MOV and res are his main weakness. 

Anyway, back on topic...how about something similar to FGO's Strengthening Quests for the weaker units such as Laslow, Raigh, Virion, Matthew and Odin? 

 

[Tenzen12]

Elincia is hardly a count as powercreep imho. I mean legendary and weapon that is stronger than non legendary (what a twist!),  but that's a thing from day one.

 

Elincia  herself can't replace Palla because   terrible enemy phase and Cordelia still take the cake as general nuke, because  even without special weapon she still come in superior color. I can see people who doesn't have Cordelia or Hinoka use her, or but that's about it. 

Edited September 16, 2017 by Tenzen12

[Lord-Zero]

47 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Elincia  herself can't replace Palla because   terrible enemy phase and Cordelia still take the cake as general nuke, because  even without special weapon she still come in superior color. I can see people who doesn't have Cordelia or Hinoka use her, or but that's about it. 

Each serves a different purpose. This is Azura VS Ninian, Xander VS Eldigan/Eliwood, Sonya VS Nino/Julia, etc. all over again. 

[NekoKnight]

I know powercreep (which could also be described as things that cause shifts in the meta) have been around since early on, but I think it's gotten worse since CYL. Units have a general stat cap and some units will inevitably have better spreads. This is fine and a part of having diverse units. The problem is skills, which have no "rules" about how strong they can be. Let's take a look at a skill like Wrath. Early on, either "If unit's health drops below 75%, Special trigger reduces 1 at the start of the turn" and "+10 damage when Special skills activate" could easily have been worthwhile single skills, but for Wrath, they are combined. The same could be said with the CYL weapons that give a +3 stat bonus in addition to a completely reasonably stand alone skill. This "skill stacking" has no limits. I'm also not fond of abilities that are straight up better than alternative skills.

Here's in my mind an example of a fair balancing system:

Def +3: A flat stat increase with no conditions. This does make it the weakest of the skills but also the easiest to use.
Armored Blow 3: A 6 point boost but only on player phase.
Earth Boost: A 6 point boost all the time but with the condition that your health be higher than the enemy.
Close Defense: 6 points to melee defense, but no help with ranged attacks.
Distance Defense: 6 points to ranged defense but no help with melee attacks.
Steady Stance: 6 points to defense while defending but none on the attack (a reverse Armored Blow).

What's an example of bad balancing?
Luna and Black Luna. Unlike Aether which is better than Luna at the expense of a higher cooldown, Black Luna is just better. I know it's locked to BK but one wonders if he really needs an additional improvement over his already outstanding stat line and weapon. Zephiel is still a stronger tank but it's going to be hard justifying using him over BK now.

In regards to Slaying weapons, I don't think they're a bad idea. Their introduction was the best way they could buff a weapon type without literally buffing Killer weapons, which, as a Gaccha game, they probably can't do. The only problem I see with it is availability. Slaying Axe is currently locked to 5* only, and Nephenee will probably follow suit. If they want to "amend" their mistake of making Killer weapons too weak, they should at least make them available at 4 star. I would hope that horse/improved armor slayers do as well.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Lord-Zero]

6 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Zephiel is still a stronger tank but it's going to be hard justifying using him over BK now.

They serve different purposes. Zephiel is a better choice for enemy phase and choke points while BK can be more offensive.

[NekoKnight]

5 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

They serve different purposes. Zephiel is a better choice for enemy phase and choke points while BK can be more offensive.

One could say that Henry does certain things that Tharja can't, but that doesn't make them equally viable. Obviously, Zephiel isn't outclassed nearly as bad as Henry is, but BK can still perform more roles and has a straight up better Special skill than anything Zephiel can equip. With his default kit, BK is a pretty good tank too.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Lord-Zero said:

Anyway, back on topic...how about something similar to FGO's Strengthening Quests for the weaker units such as Laslow, Raigh, Virion, Matthew and Odin? 

Strengthening Quests, though, make improvements on the character's skills and Noble Phantasm effects, which makes sense because those are all locked to the character.

However, that's very much a band-aid fix. It covers up power creep by pushing the floor back up to meet the ceiling, but it's only a one-time fix that will eventually need to be repeated again and again as the ceiling continues to move.

The problem with implementing something of the sort in Heroes is the fact that there's so little that individual characters have to call their own.

A single character in FGO has as their own:

• HP and Atk stats
• Class
• 3 Skills
• 1 Noble Phantasm
  • Card type
  • Primary effect
  • Overcharge effect
• 2 Command Cards (3 of the 5 are fixed because all characters have at least one card of each type)
• 1 unique Bond Craft Essence

A single character in Heroes has as their own:

• HP, Atk, Spd, Def, and Res stats
• Weapon type (includes color)
• Movement type
• Up to 2 unique skills, most have none.

Furthermore, every single one of the bullet points for FGO except the 2 Command Cards and the Noble Phantasm card type is completely arbitrary. There are literally no rules the developers need to follow when considering values and effects, which is what allows the game to power creep.

In Heroes, the 5 stats are intrinsically tied to each other where increasing one stat necessitates a decrease in another stat, and everything else is a an element from a list of choices except for the unique skills. Which basically means the only real way to implement Strengthening Quests in Heroes is to shift stats around (because, you know, we just want all of our units having the exact same stat distributions) or unlock unique skills for characters, the latter of which is a terrible idea (it's a hit or a miss and doesn't adapt to changes in the meta).

 

What we really need are skills that activate when a given stat is lower than an opponent's, though I'd imagine balancing those would be a nightmare.

 

2 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

What's an example of bad balancing?
Luna and Black Luna.

This is literally no different than the existence of legendary weapons. The Black Knight simply has two legendary weapons that can be equipped simultaneously, one in his weapon slot and one in his special slot, not too different from the CYL units who all have legendary weapons with two built-in skills instead of one.

 

7 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

They serve different purposes. Zephiel is a better choice for enemy phase and choke points while BK can be more offensive.

Dead enemies are easier to tank.

The Black Knight has his A and B slots completely freed up because he has Distant Counter on his weapon and his Spd removes the need to use Wary Fighter to avoid being double attacked.

What Zephiel does better is force pile-ups at chokes.

[NekoKnight]

11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

not too different from the CYL units who all have legendary weapons with two built-in skills instead of one.

Which is something I was critical of in that very post you quoted.

Edited September 16, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Lord-Zero]

@Ice Dragon: Something like an exclusive skill for those weaker characters would help them a bit even if it looks like a terrible idea but the developers need to do something. Maybe something like the Underdog skill?  

As for BK VS Zephiel: Sigh, I keep forgetting that defensive play is rather looked down upon in this hyper offensive meta. Same with the AI. Maybe it's because I enjoy the pile-ups. My opinion on the Black Knight remains and will remain unchanged. 

 

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Which is something I was critical of in that very post you quoted.

So here's a nice, full response.

 

55 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I know powercreep (which could also be described as things that cause shifts in the meta)

That is not what power creep is. Shifting the meta is not power creep if players do not become stronger as a result.

The easiest example is the change in Arena scoring from the old raw stat total system to the current system. This resulted in a shift away from Fury infantry and armors and towards Brave weapons and cavalry, but did not make players stronger at all.

 

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

The problem is skills, which have no "rules" about how strong they can be. Let's take a look at a skill like Wrath. Early on, either "If unit's health drops below 75%, Special trigger reduces 1 at the start of the turn" and "+10 damage when Special skills activate" could easily have been worthwhile single skills, but for Wrath, they are combined.

The problem with those being single skills is that they are simply not competitive with existing skills. They wouldn't be worthwhile single skills.

When a unit's health drops below 75%, that's almost always two-hit kill range and often one-hit kill range. The only way to avoid taking a hit at this point is to kill in a single hit, kill in two hits with a Brave weapon, or kill in two hits with Desperation, and Desperation is not an option. Moonbow is a weak special skill, meaning that you need to use a 3-charge skill to actually deal damage. With a Brave weapon or a Killing weapon, you are required to wait 2 turns between each round of combat to charge your special skill to activate before the opponent's counterattack, and that's simply not sufficiently helpful. Furthermore, because this effect is only active after your HP has dropped to 75%, you can't use this to power up your special skill for your first round of combat, meaning there is almost necessarily one fewer enemy on the map by the time the skill actually starts doing something.

For comparison, the similar skills are Shield Pulse, which reduces your charge by 2 points at the beginning of your first turn, which fully charges the weaker defensive skills to take a hit on enemy phase or puts you in range to activate the stronger defensive skills on player phase when taking an opponent's counterattack, and Infantry Pulse, which stacks with itself and is also a first-turn activation, meaning it will serve its purpose for the first round of combat.

The +10 damage when a special skill activates is similarly lackluster as a standalone skill. Its effect has two notable uses. The first is to boost the damage of Moonbow to be on par with the 3-charge special skills. The second is to boost the damage of a 4-charge special skill to bump its damage high enough to one-hit kill with the help of Infantry Pulse. As a weapon skill in the case of Wo Dao and Dark Excalibur, this is a worthwhile skill because it has little competition (Killer, Brave, and Gem for physical weapons, which are all specific to particular stat distributions), but as a B passive skill, it's competing with many of the most powerful skills in the game (Weaponbreakers, Quick Riposte, Desperation), many of which are already as good as set in stone for particular characters.

 

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

The same could be said with the CYL weapons that give a +3 stat bonus in addition to a completely reasonably stand alone skill.

The CYL weapons each have two full skills built in because they are meant to be the best of the best and skills are the only place where the developers are truly free to make a unit unique and stand out.

Everything about the CYL event implies that the power given to the CYL units is a one-time thing that won't be repeated again anytime in the near future. While this is certainly power creep, it's not doing its typical "creeping" that makes power creep harmful. There's no steady increase in the ceiling; it's more like someone punched a hole in the ceiling, but the ceiling is still where it was before since Elincia, Oscar, and Nephenee and their new skills aren't notably better than their alternatives (where alternatives exist).

Honestly, the Black Knight to me feels more like an honorary CYL character for being the only enemy-only character in the top 100, and I'm not surprised he gets the honor of a unique special skill on the heels of the CYL character banner.

 

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

This "skill stacking" has no limits.

I think you're making a mountain out of an ant hill.

There's been no sign at all that the ceiling is going up. Dauntless Crimeans only adds two units that fill holes in stat spreads (there was no glass cannon red flier or fast infantry lance tank before now), one unit that's barely better than existing units (+0/2 on Abel, +2/0 on Roderick, +0/1 on Peri), and a new skill that adds more options for special skill activation builds.

 

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm also not fond of abilities that are straight up better than alternative skills.

Falchion is straight-up better than Silver Sword+. Hauteclere is straight-up better than Slaying Axe+, which is straight-up better than Killer Axe+.

Urvan is not straight-up better than Hauteclere because you're never in a situation where you can compare the two directly in any relevant way. Being able to share a common context matters because comparisons can't be made without all else equal (e.g. you can compare CYL Ike to Minerva because they can vie for the same spot on your team and fight the same opponents with the same teammates on the same maps, but the performance of Urvan and Hauteclere are heavily dependent on the stats of their users).

 

1 minute ago, Lord-Zero said:

As for BK VS Zephiel: Sigh, I keep forgetting that defensive play is rather looked down upon in this hyper offensive meta. Same with the AI. Maybe it's because I enjoy the pile-ups. My opinion on the Black Knight remains and will remain unchanged. 

The problem with stall tactics in Heroes is the fact that units on average have about 15-20 points more Atk than they have Def or Res, and special skills on average deal about 15 points of additional damage that is not mitigated by multipliers.

[Arthur97]

4 hours ago, Arcanite said:

Lucina is definitely great, she may not be the best ever, but as a buffer who gives +6 speed to units within 2 spaces I can say for sure that she is impressive before even looking at stats

Roy though.... he can galeforce sweep teams. And as Bartozio said he's a great offensive sword cav. He's actually one of the best player phase sword units in the game now.

Ike on the other hand.... I'm not so sure. 

At least he's steady breath fodder :p

Steady Breath on Black Knight. Oh dear.

I actually never gave Roy his Galeforce sticking with Astra. It may be technically worse, but I like having actual specials (with quotes) and the extra damage is good. I also never gave it to Lyn, but did give it to Cordelia. The high price doesn't help either.

As for Lucina, I gave her rally speed so she can give an impressive +10 speed to physical units.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Arthur97

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

What we really need are skills that activate when a given stat is lower than an opponent's, though I'd imagine balancing those would be a nightmare.

I had thought of this a while ago in the Create A Hero Thread, but what would you make of any of these effects? (Not necessarily all in one skill as I had it in the CAHT- that was just fantasy and balance wasn't quite intended.)

 

B Skill: Sonnenblume- all units who engage in combat within 2 spaces of Kaiser Oblivion (including the Kaiser himself) will be faced with the following effects:

If a unit is able to double during combat and its opponent cannot, the opponent shall be able to double (or avoid being doubled if they cannot counterattack) and the other unit shall not. [This would almost invalidate Wary Fighter by itself I admit in retrospect]

If a unit has the Brave effect and the other does not, the Brave effect shall be passed from the unit with it to the one without it.

If a unit initiates combat under the effects of initiative skills- Death Blow, Darting Blow, and Desperation (HP requirements must be met) to name some examples, will have those effects passed onto the other unit.

If a unit has Vantage and is attacked by one without it, the unit being attacked will strike first if they meet the conditions for Vantage activation. Quick Riposte is also inverted under the same conditions.

If one unit has Phantom Spd and the other does not, it is passed onto the one without it.

[Hilda]

4 hours ago, Lord-Zero said:

@Ice Dragon: Something like an exclusive skill for those weaker characters would help them a bit even if it looks like a terrible idea but the developers need to do something. Maybe something like the Underdog skill?  

As for BK VS Zephiel: Sigh, I keep forgetting that defensive play is rather looked down upon in this hyper offensive meta. Same with the AI. Maybe it's because I enjoy the pile-ups. My opinion on the Black Knight remains and will remain unchanged. 

 

The weaker characters are only weak because their stat Spread doesnt favour the things how the System Calculates dmg:
The main stat everyone is looking out for in a Character is SPD. Why? Because SPD is a very good offensiv AND defensiv Stat all the Time. Where as Atk is only an offensiv stat, it doesnt help on your Defense (unless you are able to counterattack) and Def and Res are purely Defensiv stats, they only become offensiv stat when a skill activates that turns them into offensiv power.
SPD is allways an offensiv and defensiv stat. Doesnt matter what Skills you equip on the character and whats furthermore makeing it a Beast-Stat is the fact its not affected by Triangel Advantage in any way. Thus Characters with low Speed suck unless they have the Passives to eliminate that weakspot (Hector with Distant Counter and built in Quick Riposte, Armored units with Wary Fighter).
So their is only 2 solutions to make also weaker fighters with shit SPD more competitiv: you overhaul the System and change how doubling is calculated or you add Skills that soften the weakspot of Slow units. The 1. one prolly will never happen, the 2. one might happen or happened in some form (see Urvan, Wary Fighter)