Whaling

[dragonlordsd]

2 hours ago, XRay said:

I agree with Mangs. We are all adults here and we all responsible for our own actions. Children get an exemption of course, but Nintendo has already put parental control systems in place to help parents out, so I think they have done their fair share of responsibility already.

As a person who spent a lot on BB!Cordelia, I will say that getting the characters I want gives me a similar spike in pleasure like finishing an anime series, sharing my cooking masterpiece on social media, or buying a new Fire Emblem game. I do think Heroes has a really strong potential to get someone addicted. Unlike the other previous examples I mentioned, you can get the "high" repeatedly in rapid succession by immediately spending more money on Orbs, which is similar to taking multiple hits on a joint of weed or multiple shots of liquor. The high sort of builds on top of each other and it can get to levels that some people will easily get addicted to it.

Are their business practices exploiting human psychology? In my opinion, it is in a way yes, but so are other common business practices such as putting sugary cereal in colorful boxes on the lower shelves to attract kid's attention so they can bug their parents, or putting savory looking food on pet food packaging that appeals to human guardians rather than appealing to pets.

Is it unethical? Definitely no, in fact, I would say it is the right thing to do. The whole point of a business is to earn as much profits as possible, and Nintendo has a responsibility to do that for its shareholders. Having a payment model that takes as much money as you can from customers is a good thing.

There is a difference, though, and I think that's what a lot of people overlook.

You are right. Much of business practices revolves around manipulating human psychology, even among children. And for the most part, that is a fact of life, even if it is unfortunate. But in the end, that is effective market strategy.

That said, there is a specific step that gachas take when it comes to gambling that I think is very dangerous.

Gambling addiction is a real mental condition, much in the same way that drug addiction is a real mental condition. It's not enough to say "we are all responsible for our own actions." Yes, that is certainly true of people like you and me, people without addictions or severe psychological problems, but then and again, we're not the ones being preyed upon.

What is problematic is exploiting people who do have real problems, and that is, unfortunately, what gachas do.

Casinos are the best comparison. They are legal, largely because they follow strict guidelines in terms of payouts. Casinos are required by law to guarantee a certain return on all of their games, to prevent gambling addicts from simply throwing away all of their money.

Gachas, on the other hand, are under no such restrictions, and, more dangerously, can invalidate your purchases without any return. Remember Monster Strike? That got shutdown after only 2-3 years. It's gone. Everything you purchased can be wiped away in a second, and that, I find very problematic.

A final note, and this is a weird one, Fire Emblem Heroes is unfortunately particularly predatory on people with depression, much more so than other gachas. I do not think, though, that IS actually deserves to be blamed for this, as it's obviously not something anyone intended to happen, but the way the game is set up is to give the player a sense of value and belonging, with the way all of the characters express affection and feeling for the player, particularly through voice acting. I've worked on research on human responses to voices, and it's a little troubling.

I don't think there's anything amoral about this, as for the majority of players it only enhances the game, but it can seriously be a negative for people of a certain mental state.

[XRay]

20 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

What is problematic is exploiting people who do have real problems, and that is, unfortunately, what gachas do.

Gacha games are about as exploitative as credit cards in my opinion. Just because a payment process can be abused by a minority of addicts or people with spending problems does not mean the payment process is to blame.

26 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Casinos are the best comparison. They are legal, largely because they follow strict guidelines in terms of payouts. Casinos are required by law to guarantee a certain return on all of their games, to prevent gambling addicts from simply throwing away all of their money.

I do not think guaranteed payouts stop gambling addicts from throwing all their money away. Is there a study that proves increasing payouts actually help addicts? Would it make their habit worse, since the payout lessens the consequences that the addicts are suffering from and they will think that it is not too big of a deal? From how I see it, guaranteed payouts only slows down how quickly gamblers are throwing away their money.

29 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Gachas, on the other hand, are under no such restrictions, and, more dangerously, can invalidate your purchases without any return. Remember Monster Strike? That got shutdown after only 2-3 years. It's gone. Everything you purchased can be wiped away in a second, and that, I find very problematic.

Unlike physical gacha machines, gacha machines are selling you an experience instead of something physical that you get to keep forever. I see no problem with the game closing and players losing their progress. I obviously want the game to go on forever as a player, but I know full well before going into an online game that the experience may be temporary and I will have nothing to show for it, besides screen shots and stuff, after the game closes.

[BoringBoi]

I'd like to note that all of this is from the perspective of a teenager:

If businesses that thrived off of addictive practices did not exist, then pretty much every business in the world would not exist.

People can be addicted to almost anything, even simple things like going shopping like normal. Some people may simply be addicted to spending money.

 The real point that interests me is how kids factor into this. First of all, I doubt a kid younger than maybe 11 or 12 would actually play Fire Emblem. However, should that be the case, they may enjoy it, but will certainly not understand all of the depth. Heck, I've been playing this game since launch and still don't understand a few of the complicated aspects of FE Heroes (let alone the main games). However, for smartphone games in general, I believe that the parents are responsible for their children spending money until they either get a job and have the ability to spend money on their own, or until they are officially an adult. If I was a parent, I would be careful what kinds of games I would expose my child to. The majority of Free-to-Play games would certainly not be on that list not only for the more-than-likely chance of it being of poor quality, but also for the effect that it would have on the child. 

I'm a teenager who still lives with their parents, and I've spent money on Fire Emblem Heroes. However, the money either came from the money I've saved up, it was a reward for doing well in school, or with their permission. The credit card is linked to my phone, but I've never DARED to spend money without their consent. Before I make a choice, I usually contemplate. Is there something else I could buy instead? Do I acknowledge that I may be "wasting" my money? I plan on getting a job rather soon, but I still don't think I would spend the money I'd get paid with on this game. I think the fact that the money I spend on the game mostly comes as a reward for doing well in school helps me. This means that I essentially only have 4 chances to spend money on Fire Emblem Heroes this way since report cards come out four times in the span of a year. That gives me PLENTY of time to think out my decision.

Enough about me, back to the topic at hand. I personally believe that for adults, they reap what they sow. More often than not, it's their fault. As such, I don't think sympathy is necessary. For kids (who would be lucky to even know this exists) it then falls mostly on the parents. If parents played an active role in keeping track of what their kids play, there wouldn't be problem. Honestly, the biggest problem is that most kids SHOULDN'T even have a phone at a young age. Though I may not have thought fondly of it at the time, I believe that not getting a phone until I was 12 helped me significantly when it came to my mindset of gaming and the value of money. 

One last note: I think that for FE Heroes (a game that surpasses the "standard" or quality when it comes to free-to-play) one should spend some money on it. I'm not saying that they should blow their entire life savings, but at least a simple $5 as a "thank you" to the developers. Though I don't exactly "like" the idea of free-to-play, in cases like this, as long as the game is good, the system is good. Personally, I'm okay with the payment system that Super Mario Run had (though what we were spending money on wasn't worth what we got in return). The big problem is just the fact that the industry has been spoiled by being able to play for free, when they don't realize that developers need money to make games and that the one-time payment is actually the best way to go about it, for the company and the producers. 

In general, if you MUST blame someone, don't blame the company that makes it. They need to make their own living off of games. But if the industry decided to move away from the free-to-play model and into the one-time payment system (assuming everybody accepted it, which is unlikely) then everybody would benefit.

[Lau]

There were a couple of people on Reddit tossing around the idea that IS should potentially end FEH in order to stop stuff like this, and I strongly disagree. Why should a few bad eggs ruin it for everyone else?

I'm of the firm belief that once it's gone, it's gone. For example, I'll take around a tenner with me to the arcades. I blow that tenner, then leave. No point going back home, then wasting more money on bus fare just to go back.

It's their own fault if they decide to blow a large sum of money. I don't really care either way - it gives IS more money, which equals more Fire Emblem.

Though that's rather hypocritical of me, considering I haven't spent a penny on the game...

[Vince777]

Never spent a dime on it, never will, and that's still enough for 43 5* units in my barracks, which is more than enough to make all sorts of teams for all sorts of situations.

Sure, I don't have the best builds, or all the units I'd want but making progress with the limited resources I'm given is rather satisfying. 




 

Edited September 17, 2017 by Vince777

[Koumal8]

I'll allow little old arrogant me to make a consideration: no one, not even Mangs (who's btw entirely correct in what he says IMO), neither on Youtube (as far as I've read) nor here on SF, has actually replied to one aspect of the issue that Mekkkah raises: what he criticized is that FE heroes and gacha games are developed with the specific for the specific purpose of milking gambling addicts. Let me explain: opening up a liquor store, as almost all people both here and on Youtube seem to agree, in a place where a drunkard lives is not unethical in any way: the drunkard is already taking his liquor somewhere else and your store will (I assume) provide a useful service to all the non-drunkards in the area. However what Mekkkah asks is: would it unethical to open up this store of yours knowing that the ONLY way for your store to economically sustain itself is through exploitation of the drunkard's addiction? Personally, I think that would be unethical: you're opening your store with the clear intention of thriving off another person's tragedy. It would obviously be fine if your store could sustain itself without even any drunkard buying alcohol off you (which is incidentally the case for all liquor stores I'd say and really the condition of every kind of business: you can't start a business hoping for someone to develop an addiction to your product, that seems pretty frigging unreliable).

That established (but feel free to disagree, I'm really interested in other people's opinion on this) let's go back to FE heroes: was Heroes developed knowing that it could sustain itself only through gambling addicts (not whales because it obviously relies on whales to keep going, I'm talking about addicted whales)? If it was then I'd say that yes, it would in fact be unethical to support it. It it wasn't then it's all fine. And was Heroes developed with such a thing in mind? I... honestly have no idea, I even have my doubts whether or not it's possible for a gacha game developer to somehow quantify how much of his revenue will come from addicts and how much will come from free and responsible whales. 

As an aside, I have a curiosity about something Mangs uses as an example in his video: am I really the only one who thinks that if you open up a casino in an area where gambling-addicts are recovering from their addiction, while it's not really unethical, it's still pretty fucking dumb? 

[eclipse]

I changed the topic title to something more appropriate.

Regarding kids - it's the parent's responsibility to limit spending.  Since kids are impulsive by nature, and not all parents want to take responsibility for their kids, I have no issues with Nintendo locking down kids' accounts.  Also, why would a 7-year-old need to spend money in this game, anyway?

Regarding whales - It's their money.  Perhaps someone makes six-figures, and has something like $1,000 in other monthly expenses.  It's not anyone else's job to make sure people don't overspend.  If it is an actual psychological problem, there's help out there for addiction in general.

I'm F2P by my definition, and Heroes is one of the friendliest mobile games I've played.  Due to the nature of the characters, a lot of the "hard" stuff is doable with free units.

Edited September 17, 2017 by eclipse

[dragonlordsd]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

I changed the topic title to something more appropriate.

Regarding kids - it's the parent's responsibility to limit spending.  Since kids are impulsive by nature, and not all parents want to take responsibility for their kids, I have no issues with Nintendo locking down kids' accounts.  Also, why would a 7-year-old need to spend money in this game, anyway?

Regarding whales - It's their money.  Perhaps someone makes six-figures, and has something like $1,000 in other monthly expenses.  It's not anyone else's job to make sure people don't overspend.  If it is an actual psychological problem, there's help out there for addiction in general.

I'm F2P by my definition, and Heroes is one of the friendliest mobile games I've played.  Due to the nature of the characters, a lot of the "hard" stuff is doable with free units.

I do agree with these sentiments, as I'm in much the same boat.

While gacha games in general can often become truly horrific things, FE Heroes is definitely one of the best. They have implemented a large number of good and ethical policies, for which I do think they deserve credit.

Here are the major things I think FEH does right:

1. Lack of randomness - In truth, FEH is more of a puzzle game than anything, as there are no random factors. This really helps distinguish it not only from some of the truly sinister games that use a fake "random number system" that is actually programmed to prevent people from winning (altering the results as the player goes on, and pretending it's just "bad luck"), but also from many of the skinner boxes that are essentially just picking random numbers repeatedly (KHUX, FGO)

2. All units are upgradable - This is a great one. You can promote any unit to five stars. Although some units will always be better than others, all units are given the opportunity to be statistically equal. This is a big step up over a game like FGO, in which 1-4 star units will always be inferior, and there's nothing you can do about it.

3. You can't whale hero feathers - If you want to use Nino, I've got news for you: no amount of cash is going to get her to 5 star. You can't even pull her at 5 star. You've got to grind her up like everyone else.

4. Lack of predatory banners and "deals" - There was a great reddit post on this some time ago. Just open a game (I use the term loosely) like KHUX, and before you even start you're blasted with a "buy a weekly ticket" banner. FEH doesn't push microtransactions, which is commendable, and brings up "news" before banners.

 

Oh, and @Koumal8:

While FEH is so far an exception, there are a number of gacha games that are sustained solely through whales. See, the companies that make the games can see the data on every single account, so they know exactly who is spending money and how much. There are many gachas that are sustained solely by 20-30 people spending thousands a month. Most gachas are maintained by very small teams (as is FEH), so they can rake in plenty of cash off of a handful of people)

FEH is a little bit of an exception. Assuming Nintendo's shareholder report is correct, the majority of income in FEH (at least a few months ago) came from people spending less than $100. But FEH is the exception here, not the rule.

Edited September 17, 2017 by dragonlordsd

[eclipse]

6 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

4. Lack of predatory banners and "deals" - There was a great reddit post on this some time ago. Just open a game (I use the term loosely) like KHUX, and before you even start you're blasted with a "buy a weekly ticket" banner. FEH doesn't push microtransactions, which is commendable, and brings up "news" before banners.

Believe me, I can dump on KHUX all day.  But they are by far and away not the worst offenders I've seen.

Wait until you see unrelated ads interrupt your game.  While asking you for money.   Repeatedly.

[Koumal8]

9 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

While FEH is so far an exception, there are a number of gacha games that are sustained solely through whales. See, the companies that make the games can see the data on every single account, so they know exactly who is spending money and how much. There are many gachas that are sustained solely by 20-30 people spending thousands a month. Most gachas are maintained by very small teams (as is FEH), so they can rake in plenty of cash off of a handful of people)

FEH is a little bit of an exception. Assuming Nintendo's shareholder report is correct, the majority of income in FEH (at least a few months ago) came from people spending less than $100. But FEH is the exception here, not the rule.

Maybe I haven't been clear enough: it's not gachas relying on whales to sustain themselves that are unethical (that is just how it works), it's gachas (or any business similar to it) relying on addicted whales that are unethical to support because (supposing they were released knowing that only through addicted whales they could go on, which is equivalent to the scenario proposed by Mekkkah where the only reason the liquor shop opens is because they rely on the drunkard as a customer) they're planning to exploit poeple's addictions (while the previous kind of gacha did not plan on that). The problem becomes whether or not it's even possible to plan such a thing, or whether or not gacha games have stats on how many of their potential whales will be addicts and how many won't.

[dragonlordsd]

5 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

The problem becomes whether or not it's even possible to plan such a thing, or whether or not gacha games have stats on how many of their potential whales will be addicts and how many won't.

They definitely can access the necessary data if they want to (in the US, at least. Different countries have different laws on this). But they won't.

For one thing, it gives them plausible deniability.

And another, it helps them sleep at night.

Again, FEH is not nearly as bad or predatory as some games are. FGO isn't as bad as a lot of them either, but that one also has some really ugly stuff if you look at the numbers.

If you want to see nasty, check out KHUX. It's.... well, suffice to say it's pretty nasty.

[Tenzen12]

5 hours ago, dragonlordsd said:

What is problematic is exploiting people who do have real problems, and that is, unfortunately, what gachas do.

Casinos are the best comparison. They are legal, largely because they follow strict guidelines in terms of payouts. Casinos are required by law to guarantee a certain return on all of their games, to prevent gambling addicts from simply throwing away all of their money.

Gachas, on the other hand, are under no such restrictions, and, more dangerously, can invalidate your purchases without any return. Remember Monster Strike? That got shutdown after only 2-3 years. It's gone. Everything you purchased can be wiped away in a second, and that, I find very problematic.

A final note, and this is a weird one, Fire Emblem Heroes is unfortunately particularly predatory on people with depression, much more so than other gachas. I do not think, though, that IS actually deserves to be blamed for this, as it's obviously not something anyone intended to happen, but the way the game is set up is to give the player a sense of value and belonging, with the way all of the characters express affection and feeling for the player, particularly through voice acting. I've worked on research on human responses to voices, and it's a little troubling.

 

1) I think you have bit misconception about gacha games. They do not exploit people with mental problems. Yes, gacha games profit from people who spend money. But majority of spenders are not addicts. Thus there is no point focus  and "exploit" on them. 

2)Unlike actual casinos there is no potential lasting profit. But that's not negative issue,  because it  mitigate gambling aspect even further. You spend your money for entertainment not "investing" it and hoping for high return. 

3)Fire Emblem Heroes is "predatory on people with depression"? I can't really disprove it cause I don't have slightest clue how it is supposed work or where are you coming from with that. Could you elaborate?  

Edited September 17, 2017 by Tenzen12

[eclipse]

10 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

They definitely can access the necessary data if they want to (in the US, at least. Different countries have different laws on this). But they won't.

For one thing, it gives them plausible deniability.

And another, it helps them sleep at night.

Again, FEH is not nearly as bad or predatory as some games are. FGO isn't as bad as a lot of them either, but that one also has some really ugly stuff if you look at the numbers.

If you want to see nasty, check out KHUX. It's.... well, suffice to say it's pretty nasty.

(citation needed)

And trust me, KHUX is only bad if you have a very limited gacha experience.  Did you read my previous post?

[Magical Glace]

43 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

3. You can't whale hero feathers - If you want to use Nino, I've got news for you: no amount of cash is going to get her to 5 star. You can't even pull her at 5 star. You've got to grind her up like everyone else.

Well, you can just whale summon units to immediately release them for feathers.  So you can, in theory, whale for feathers.

[dragonlordsd]

27 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

1) I think you have bit misconception about gacha games. They do not exploit people with mental problems. Yes, gacha games profit from people who spend money. But majority of spenders are not addicts. Thus there is no point focus  and "exploit" on them. 

2)Unlike actual casinos there is no potential lasting profit. But that's not negative issue,  because it  mitigate gambling aspect even further. You spend your money for entertainment not "investing" it and hoping for high return. 

3)Fire Emblem Heroes is "predatory on people with depression"? I can't really disprove it cause I don't have slightest clue how it is supposed work or where are you coming from with that. Could you elaborate?  

1. The most gacha games are reliant on people spending more than 1000 dollars a month to exist. Reliant. This means that not only do these big spenders provide the majority of profits, they provide almost all of the income for the company period. FEH is one of very few exceptions to this.

And yes, most gachas (not so much FEH) are specifically "targeting" these people. They are intentionally preyed upon. Most gachas will create exclusive content that only these people have access to, and some companies will even make personal contact with these individuals, doing things such as sending them presents, etc.

To bring it up (yet again) KHUX, for example, has "VIP quests." Normal players cannot play these quests (though they can see them obviously, because the company wants to tempt them by showing them what they are missing out on. I mean, imagine this. You're playing FEH. A tempest trial comes up. But wait, you can't play this tempest trial, unless you buy orbs from the shop. But not just some orbs, no, you have to buy enough orbs. Otherwise, you can't even try it. It's not even that they make quests that are too difficult for F2P players to access, they genuinely lock content out unless you pay a certain amount. But I know what you're thinking "Ok, so I'll pay a certain amount. Big deal." Well, here's the thing. You have to keep paying every time you want to play these quests. You can't just pay once, you have to renew every week.

 

3. There's some research in progress on this, but this is a weird one. Again, I don't blame IS for this at all, but here's the basic break down:

Hearing other human's voices triggers certain reactions in our brains. This may seem fairly obvious, but it's actually really important. Humans are social creatures, and we are actually somewhat dependent upon hearing other people's voices. There are significant negative mental and physical impacts if a person is deprived of human contact (this has been observed in multiple cases).

Ok, so that part's obvious. Where does depression come in?

Well, part of the reason depression is such a big deal as a mental illness is that depressed people tend to take actions that worsen their general state of being, such as closing themselves off from human contact, becoming shut ins. As a result of this, they won't interact with other people, and won't hear human voices on a regular basis.

BUUUTTTT...

FEH has voice acting. And not just voice acting, the characters actually talk to the player, offering them encouragement. This is a pretty neat touch, and something I really enjoy.

However, if someone is suffering from severe depression, they can form a dependency on these pseudo-interactions. Latinus and Taylor's 2011 study demonstrated that the human brain can be made to react to computer generated voices in the same way as to a real human voice, producing the exact same neural patterns. Further, the chemicals produced by the interactions and encouragements can cause people to involuntarily respond in the same way as a normal person.

In a healthy person, this isn't particularly dangerous, but in a depressed person, this can be.... very bad.

You see, voice acting, by itself, isn't a bad thing. But the characters in FEH talk to the player, and that's a different story.

But, you will say, obviously no one in their right mind would think that the characters in the game were real people. And you're right. There's no risk of that, unless the person is genuinely schizophrenic.

But it's the subconscious reaction that's dangerous. You see, the neural processes for voice recognition are involuntary. As a result, you can't control your chemical response to hearing voices like this.

Edited September 17, 2017 by dragonlordsd

[Ice Dragon]

22 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

3. You can't whale hero feathers - If you want to use Nino, I've got news for you: no amount of cash is going to get her to 5 star. You can't even pull her at 5 star. You've got to grind her up like everyone else.

100 pulls is worth approximately 22,000 feathers on average if you send home all of your 3-stars and 4-stars.

 

5 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Again, FEH is not nearly as bad or predatory as some games are. FGO isn't as bad as a lot of them either, but that one also has some really ugly stuff if you look at the numbers.

FGO is 9,800 JPY per 167 SQ and 3 SQ per pull, which totals 176 JPY per pull. The 5-star pull rate is 1%. Since I don't know how FGO's rate-up system works (other than it's calculated after the rarity), based on my own pulls, I've pulled a total of 34 rate-up 5-stars and 13 off-banner 5-stars, which is a 72% rate. Assuming you always pull on-banner, that's an average of about 24,000 JPY per 5-star you are specifically pulling for. Since you need 5 copies to max a character out, that's a final total of 120,000 JPY or about 1,100 USD at the current rate.

Heroes is 74.99 USD per 140 orbs (yes, I know 75 orbs is barely cheaper per orb) and approximately 5 orbs per pull when focusing a single color, which totals 2.70 USD per pull. The pull rate for the average focus character is about 3% when focusing a single color, which comes out to about 89 USD for the 5-star you are specifically pulling for. To max a character out, you need a total of 11 copies, which is a total of about 980 USD.

If you're whaling for a single maxed character, the two games are about even. If you're only pulling for a single copy of a character you want (and you don't care about the character's nature), Heroes is a bit under half as expensive. That said, Heroes also gives out free orbs at slightly faster rate compared to FGO gives out free SQ, adjusted for the difference in cost per pull. On the other hand, there are way fewer relevant characters in FGO to pull.

FGO isn't that much worse than Heroes.

 

 

2 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

3. There's some research in progress on this, but this is a weird one. Again, I don't blame IS for this at all, but here's the basic break down:

The point of the argument is that there is a difference between people with depression having self-destructive reactions to your product and making your product to be predatory on people with depression.

[dragonlordsd]

11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

 

FGO isn't that much worse than Heroes.

 

It's not the gacha I'm talking about, actually, although that one is pretty bad (remember, there's no GUARANTEE. You're right about averages, but it's totally possible, if very unlikely, to never get a 5 star ever, no matter how much you spend. You could literally spend millions and get nothing, the odds are just really low.)

What I was talking about was everything else.

I mean, just take ascension materials. Geez, that's nasty.

So, right now, there's no way to farm a lot of key materials every day. You can only farm them on (right now) one specific day of the week. And of course, the stamina system is absurd. They only give out stamina refills as event bonuses, and material farming is hideously overcosted. But most of all, the drop rates are just stupid. If you look at the actual numbers, it's ridiculous. But that's just the tip of the iceberg for FGO. The further you analyze, the nastier it gets.

Which is really too bad, because the production values are off the charts. I really wanted to like that game.

Oh, and yes, I agree, I don't think FEH intentionally preys on depressed people, I think it's a side effect.

Edited September 17, 2017 by dragonlordsd

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, dragonlordsd said:

I mean, just take ascension materials. Geez, that's nasty.

So, right now, there's no way to farm a lot of key materials every day. You can only farm them on (right now) one specific day of the week. And of course, the stamina system is absurd. They only give out stamina refills as event bonuses, and material farming is hideously overcosted. But most of all, the drop rates are just stupid. If you look at the actual numbers, it's ridiculous. But that's just the tip of the iceberg for FGO. The further you analyze, the nastier it gets.

I don't know if you're talking about the Japanese version or the overseas release, which is a year and a half behind in terms of quality of life.

To be honest, I don't yet have any experience farming ascension materials since the characters I have been using are all event characters whose ascension materials could simply be bought from the event shop (I started the Japanese version a few days into Dead Heat Summer Race), and the absurd speed that I could level up my account during the event took care of all of my stamina issues.

(Leveling up skills, though, is almost physically impossible for me since I don't have access to the nodes to grind the materials to begin with since I've been doing events instead of advancing the story. I'm still in Orleans.)

[dragonlordsd]

8 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I don't know if you're talking about the Japanese version or the overseas release, which is a year and a half behind in terms of quality of life.

To be honest, I don't yet have any experience farming ascension materials since the characters I have been using are all event characters whose ascension materials could simply be bought from the event shop (I started the Japanese version a few days into Dead Heat Summer Race), and the absurd speed that I could level up my account during the event took care of all of my stamina issues.

(Leveling up skills, though, is almost physically impossible for me since I don't have access to the nodes to grind the materials to begin with since I've been doing events instead of advancing the story. I'm still in Orleans.)

I have heard that the JP version has improved a lot, but on the NA side, things are bad.

To ascend saber Alter to max, you need 6 reverse dragon scales.

To start with, reverse dragon scales only have a 1% drop rate (though you get 1 for free in Orleans, I think).

At present, in NA they can only drop from fafnirs, which only spawn during the Friday material farming quest, which (obviously) can only be done on friday.

But wait, it gets worse. Not only do they have a 1% drop rate, but fafnirs only have about a 25% chance of spawning in that quest. So each time you do the quest, you only have a .25% chance of getting a scale. And, just in case that's not enough, if you're level 100, you can only do that quest 3 times before you run out of stamina.

It's ridiculous. I mean, the production values on FGO are amazing. Some people put serious time and effort into this, and the results look great. It's just a shame the actual game is so bad.

[Tenzen12]

13 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

1. The most gacha games are reliant on people spending more than 1000 dollars a month to exist. Reliant. This means that not only do these big spenders provide the majority of profits, they provide almost all of the income for the company period. FEH is one of very few exceptions to this.

And yes, most gachas (not so much FEH) are specifically "targeting" these people. They are intentionally preyed upon. Most gachas will create exclusive content that only these people have access to, and some companies will even make personal contact with these individuals, doing things such as sending them presents, etc.

To bring it up (yet again) KHUX, for example, has "VIP quests." Normal players cannot play these quests (though they can see them obviously, because the company wants to tempt them by showing them what they are missing out on. I mean, imagine this. You're playing FEH. A tempest trial comes up. But wait, you can't play this tempest trial, unless you buy orbs from the shop. But not just some orbs, no, you have to buy enough orbs. Otherwise, you can't even try it. It's not even that they make quests that are too difficult for F2P players to access, they genuinely lock content out unless you pay a certain amount. But I know what you're thinking "Ok, so I'll pay a certain amount. Big deal." Well, here's the thing. You have to keep paying every time you want to play these quests. You can't just pay once, you have to renew every week.

 

3. There's some research in progress on this, but this is a weird one. Again, I don't blame IS for this at all, but here's the basic break down:

Hearing other human's voices triggers certain reactions in our brains. This may seem fairly obvious, but it's actually really important. Humans are social creatures, and we are actually somewhat dependent upon hearing other people's voices. There are significant negative mental and physical impacts if a person is deprived of human contact (this has been observed in multiple cases).

Ok, so that part's obvious. Where does depression come in?

Well, part of the reason depression is such a big deal as a mental illness is that depressed people tend to take actions that worsen their general state of being, such as closing themselves off from human contact, becoming shut ins. As a result of this, they won't interact with other people, and won't hear human voices on a regular basis.

BUUUTTTT...

FEH has voice acting. And not just voice acting, the characters actually talk to the player, offering them encouragement. This is a pretty neat touch, and something I really enjoy.

However, if someone is suffering from severe depression, they can form a dependency on these pseudo-interactions. Latinus and Taylor's 2011 study demonstrated that the human brain can be made to react to computer generated voices in the same way as to a real human voice, producing the exact same neural patterns. Further, the chemicals produced by the interactions and encouragements can cause people to involuntarily respond in the same way as a normal person.

In a healthy person, this isn't particularly dangerous, but in a depressed person, this can be.... very bad.

You see, voice acting, by itself, isn't a bad thing. But the characters in FEH talk to the player, and that's a different story.

But, you will say, obviously no one in their right mind would think that the characters in the game were real people. And you're right. There's no risk of that, unless the person is genuinely schizophrenic.

But it's the subconscious reaction that's dangerous. You see, the neural processes for voice recognition are involuntary. As a result, you can't control your chemical response to hearing voices like this.

1) And that's exactly where your misconception lies. Gacha games are reliant on people who spend money. 1000 dollars per month you say? Sure why not. But that just means there is lot of people who can afford it and find it worthwhile. If one of hundred or whatever one of twenty happens to be gambling addict, we'll tough luck... 

3)well and Pokémon movies caused epileptic attack long time ago. It doesn't make it "predatory on people with epilepsy". Restaurants serving pork are not exploiting obese people either. In whole world there isn't single thing that is beneficial for everyone. I could make argument about bread being predatory on people who has served allergy on gluten and even pin some scientific study. It is same thing. 

[dragonlordsd]

9 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

1) And that's exactly where your misconception lies. Gacha games are reliant on people who spend money. 1000 dollars per month you say? Sure why not. But that just means there is lot of people who can afford it and find it worthwhile. If one of hundred or whatever one of twenty happens to be gambling addict, we'll tough luck... 

3)well and Pokémon movies caused epileptic attack long time ago. It doesn't make it "predatory on people with epilepsy". Restaurants serving pork are not exploiting obese people either. In whole world there isn't single thing that is beneficial for everyone. I could make argument about bread being predatory on people who has served allergy on gluten and even pin some scientific study. It is same thing. 

Over $1000. I said "over 1000 dollars." Not "$1000" There is a big difference.

And the pokemon episodes were not only removed from air, but every official version ever since has been released in an altered format that doesn't risk causing epilepsy.

Several major laws and regulations were passed in response to this incident, not only in the US, but also in many countries in the world.

In fact, to this date, every electronic device capable of accessing YouTube released in the US has had to have a special warning on it about the dangers of epilepsy. EVERY SINGLE ONE. IN RESPONSE TO ONE INCIDENT.

It's not exaggeration to say that the "psychic soldier porygon" incident fundamentally changed the multi-billion dollar electronics market for decades afterwards, requiring major federal legislation. The story dominated the news cycle, and became one of the most famous incidents in the history of animated television.

All over that one tiny thing.

And, in fact, the gluten thing is also having a major effect on the entire world food market. Grocery stores across not only the US, but even some parts of Europe and Asia have spent billions of dollars shifting to include special "gluten free" labels, "gluten free" aisles, and more.

Food production companies have similarly spent enormous sums of money creating new "gluten free" alternatives to their products.

And do you remember the backlash over "supersize me"? It changed the fast food industry permanently, after they proved they were preying on obese people. All fast food resturants had to change the size of their meals, drinks, and more.

It permanently altered the pricing system for these restaurants, again, costing them billions in lost sales.

Edited September 17, 2017 by dragonlordsd

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, dragonlordsd said:

Over $1000. I said "over 1000 dollars." Not "$1000" There is a big difference.

And the pokemon episodes were not only removed from air, but every official version ever since has been released in an altered format that doesn't risk causing epilepsy.

Several major laws and regulations were passed in response to this incident, not only in the US, but also in many countries in the world.

In fact, to this date, every electronic device capable of accessing YouTube released in the US has had to have a special warning on it about the dangers of epilepsy. EVERY SINGLE ONE. IN RESPONSE TO ONE INCIDENT.

It's not exaggeration to say that the "psychic soldier porygon" incident fundamentally changed the multi-billion dollar electronics market for decades afterwards, requiring major federal legislation. The story dominated the news cycle, and became one of the most famous incidents in the history of animated television.

All over that one tiny thing.

And, in fact, the gluten thing is also having a major effect on the entire world food market. Grocery stores across not only the US, but even some parts of Europe and Asia have spent billions of dollars shifting to include special "gluten free" labels, "gluten free" aisles, and more.

Food production companies have similarly spent enormous sums of money creating new "gluten free" alternatives to their products.

And do you remember the backlash over "supersize me"? It changed the fast food industry permanently, after they proved they were preying on obese people. All fast food resturants had to change the size of their meals, drinks, and more.

It permanently altered the pricing system for these restaurants, again, costing them billions in lost sales.

What the hell does this have to do with the topic?

And if you really hate gacha that badly, then don't play it.

[dragonlordsd]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

What the hell does this have to do with the topic?

And if you really hate gacha that badly, then don't play it.

Lol, sorry man. My bad. How did we even get here?

I said this a few posts ago, but you were right in your post way back when. I gotta stop responding to everyone who replies to my posts, geez. 

[Inferno lizard]

10 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

And, in fact, the gluten thing is also having a major effect on the entire world food market. Grocery stores across not only the US, but even some parts of Europe and Asia have spent billions of dollars shifting to include special "gluten free" labels, "gluten free" aisles, and more.

Food production companies have similarly spent enormous sums of money creating new "gluten free" alternatives to their products.

Don't want to continue this conversation, just want to point out that the huge boom in "gluten-free" food was really just the result of a health fad, not because "soooo" many people couldn't have gluten. Also, my mom IS one of the people who can't have gluten.

[Tenzen12]

Oh right,  it's over 1000$ I forgot use one word. Well whether it's 1000 or 100 000 it doesn't matter if you can afford it and are happy with result. Again only negligible amount of people who spend that kind of money are gambling addicts. 

And about this gluten thing,  point is,  whatever you pick it will be always harmful to someone in this wide world. If some mentally damaged person jump from building because cloud shape it's not cloud fault. If guy allergic on gluten eat bread it is not fault of baker either. There is nothing predatory about that. 

Edited September 17, 2017 by Tenzen12