Your ideas about Shapeshifters and Laguz in FE Heroes

[Yexin]

i'd really love to see some other shapeshifters, such as xane, panne, selkie and literally every laguz in fire emblem heroes, so i created this topic to know other people's opinion

in particular, laguz are hard to represent in heroes, since they have a gauge that determines if they can actually do something useful or not

btw, these are my ideas about some laguz: i think these concepts could represent them quite well, but feel free to say your opinion, or even completely different ideas, both for laguz and other shapeshifters

Ranulf, colorless, beast laguz (3 spaces of movement, weak to fire magic)

HP: 50, ATK: 31, SPD: 31, DEF: 24, RES: 10, Raw Rating: 145

Weapon: Claw, mt: 11, range: 1, Effect: if unit initiates combat, atk/spd/def/res+6 during combat

Special Skill: Rend (5 turns cooldown, raises ATK by 100% during combat, enemy is paralyzed after combat, only inheritable by cat laguz)

Passive Skills: A) Fury 3 C) Goad Shapeshifters (grants atk/spd +4 to every shapeshifter ally within 2 spaces during combat, not applied to manaketes)

 

Naesala, colorless, raven laguz (flying unit, 2 spaces of movement, weak to wind magic)

HP: 47, ATK: 27, SPD: 37, DEF: 17, RES: 23, Raw Rating: 150

Weapon: Great Beak, mt: 14, range: 1, Effect: if unit initiates combat, atk/spd/def/res+6; can counterattack ranged attacks (counterattack counts as green magical damage)

Special Skill: Tear (3 turns cooldown, raises ATK by 50% during combat, inflicts spd-5 to the enemy after combat, like seal spd, inheritable only by hawk and raven laguz)

Passive Skills: B) Vantage 3, C) Hone Shapeshifters (atk/spd +6 to adiacent shapeshifters ally at the start of your turn, not applied to manaketes)

 

Reyson, colorless, heron laguz (flying unit, 2 spaces of movement, weak to wind magic)

HP: 40, ATK: 21, SPD: 36, DEF: 20, RES: 30, Raw Rating: 147

Weapon: Dirge of Ruin, mt: 14, range 2 (magical attack), Effect: if unit initiates combat, atk/spd/def/res+6, deals 6 more damage to the enemy after combat

Assist Skill: Canto (same effect as dance, but with a cooler name)

Passive Skills: A) Distant Defense 3, C) Blessing (heals 6 hp to adiacent allies at the start of your turn)

I deciced to make laguz as colorless units, in order to make the colorless hell less "hellish", but i decided to keep their original weaknesses to magic (fire for beast laguz, wind for bird laguz and thunder for dragon laguz); other shapeshifters could be red, blue or green

what do you think shapeshifters could work in heroes? let me know, i'm curious!

Edited September 18, 2017 by Yexin

[Tenzen12]

Just make them dragons with different transformation sprite, who can't inherit classic breaths. 

Job done. 

[Book Bro]

I think the simplest thing for Heroes is to treat all shapeshifters the way manaketes have been. I also think laguz should come in varying colours and movement types. For example, beasts can be normal infantry, ravens/hawks/herons flying, and dragons armoured. As for colours I guess cats would be red, wolves blue, taguel green, hawks green, ravens blue, herons colourless, and dragons depending on their breath type would be red, blue or colourless (white breath), or green (black breath).

For Xane to be added I assume they would have to make him copy whoever he is attacking or have a skill that allows him to shift once to a specific unit on the map selected by the player.

[Michelaar]

24 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Just make them dragons with different transformation sprite, who can't inherit classic breaths. 

Job done. 

Seems good to me.

Ranulf would be Blue, Naesala would be Red, and Reyson would be green.

[Anacybele]

Beast laguz should be green, imo. They're weak to fire magic which is red in this game. Plus we need more green units.

Bird laguz should be blue, imo. They're weak to wind magic which is green in this game.

And dragon laguz would then be red, because they're weak to thunder magic which is blue in this game.

Panne and Yarne can be any color, honestly, though I'd prefer green for the need of green units. Same with Kaden and Keaton.

[Yexin]

1 hour ago, Tenzen12 said:

Just make them dragons with different transformation sprite, who can't inherit classic breaths. 

Job done. 

1 hour ago, Book Bro said:

I think the simplest thing for Heroes is to treat all shapeshifters the way manaketes have been.

well, of course i agree this is the easiest way they could go, and i'd be fine with them being nothing but manaketes with different sprites, but this wouldn't make them feel unique, and laguz are indeed unique: making them look like alternate manaketes wouldn't do justice to them; this is just my opinion, though

1 hour ago, Book Bro said:

For Xane to be added I assume they would have to make him copy whoever he is attacking or have a skill that allows him to shift once to a specific unit on the map selected by the player.

as for xane, i don't really know, maybe he could be able to randomly transform into an ally unit, acting like that unit, but keeping xane's passive, assist and//or special skills and sacred seals

1 hour ago, Book Bro said:

I also think laguz should come in varying colours and movement types. For example, beasts can be normal infantry, ravens/hawks/herons flying, and dragons armoured. As for colours I guess cats would be red, wolves blue, taguel green, hawks green, ravens blue, herons colourless, and dragons depending on their breath type would be red, blue or colourless (white breath), or green (black breath).

 

1 hour ago, Michelaar said:

Ranulf would be Blue, Naesala would be Red, and Reyson would be green.

if IntSys wants to keep their original weaknesses, i think it would be better to make them having the color disadvantage

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

Beast laguz should be green, imo. They're weak to fire magic which is red in this game. Plus we need more green units.

Bird laguz should be blue, imo. They're weak to wind magic which is green in this game.

And dragon laguz would then be red, because they're weak to thunder magic which is blue in this game.

Panne and Yarne can be any color, honestly, though I'd prefer green for the need of green units. Same with Kaden and Keaton.

i was just about to write this, but you outspeeded me; btw, i completely agree about laguz colors, for the exact same reasons

i'd like reyson to be colorless instead of blue, just to make him different, and not another blue refresher (we already have azura and ninian)

as for taguels, wolfskins and kitsunes, i don't really know: maybe taguels and kitsunes could be green and wolfskins colorless

 

Edited September 18, 2017 by Yexin

[Ice Dragon]

Taguels and the other newer shapeshifters are just beasts by a fancy name. We're lacking in green units anyways, so I don't see anything wrong with lumping all of the beasts together as green, them being the most common shapeshifter type.

I wouldn't mind herons being colorless with staff-like weapons.

 

Xane just needs a unique assist skill that transforms him into the targeted ally for several turns.

I personally think he should copy everything about the targeted ally except HP with his base form being his FE1/3 class with a sword. Preferably with enough Res to Ploy the world.

[Sproutling]

I think the dragon laguz should just be treated exactly like manaketes. It's way simpler that way. I kind of want the beasts to all be colorless infantry and effective against cavalry or something, or at least create an A or B slot Beastbane skill which is only inheritable by beast units. Ignore the transformation gauge from the Tellius games, give them all a shared pool of beaststones and call it a day. As it is right now, the colorless pool is barely worth pulling from, and IS doesn't seem to care about improving healers or daggers at the moment.

No idea about the birds. I guess there's no reason they couldn't be like the beasts, except flying instead of infantry.

[Xenomata]

Thing about Beast shapeshifters is that, unlike the Manakete who can use more than one element and therefore can be classified as any different color, shapeshifters have no color association.

They'd basically be Melee Colorless units in my book, with stones as their weapon of choice that trigger different effects. But I do NOT think they should have any color other than colorless.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Thing about Beast shapeshifters is that, unlike the Manakete who can use more than one element and therefore can be classified as any different color, shapeshifters have no color association.

Half of the main series doesn't have an anima triangle, none of the main series has the magic triangle anything other than neutral to physical weapons, and none of the main series has dragons anything other than neutral to everything. (And none of the main series games classify ice magic with thunder magic.)

Heroes is doing its own thing, and the composite weapon triangle is a huge piece of the game dynamics. With the fact that there are more non-dragon shapeshifters in the series than dragons, they have every reason to exist within the weapon triangle.

 

And I still think Tellius's elemental effectiveness makes the most sense for color assignment.

[Xenomata]

19 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Half of the main series doesn't have an anima triangle, none of the main series has the magic triangle anything other than neutral to physical weapons, and none of the main series has dragons anything other than neutral to everything. (And none of the main series games classify ice magic with thunder magic.)

Heroes is doing its own thing, and the composite weapon triangle is a huge piece of the game dynamics. With the fact that there are more non-dragon shapeshifters in the series than dragons, they have every reason to exist within the weapon triangle.

 

And I still think Tellius's elemental effectiveness makes the most sense for color assignment.

Perhaps, but at the end of the day, Beast-shifters aren't breathing fire, or wielding a specific weapon, or casting wind at the enemy. They're either tackling, clawing, pecking, or punching. All the "magic" or "affinity" seems to go into their transformation more than anything.

Though if I am honest, I still haven't played any Tellius games, and probably never will until they're released as Virtual Console titles, so everything I know about the Laguz comes from skimming FE Wiki out of boredom.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Xenomata

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

They're either tackling, clawing, pecking, or punching.

Who says those actions can't be assigned their own colors?

Physical weapons are just sharp things that are on a stick, not on a stick, on a stick and flying through the air, not on a stick and flying through the air, or big and heavy (and maybe not sharp anymore).

Edited September 18, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[Xenomata]

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

Who says those actions can't be assigned their own colors?

Physical weapons are just sharp things that are on a stick, not on a stick, on a stick and flying through the air, not on a stick and flying through the air, or big and heavy (and maybe not sharp anymore).

I think "sharp things on a stick" can be deepened into "different varieties of pointy sticks", as Swords probably have much shorter range than Lances and even then have to avoid striking the Lance shaft, where... I suppose if you are clawing then your fingers are more likely to be damaged fighting someone who is ramming their everything into you?

I cannot see how "Tackling" and "Clawing" can be affiliated with colors, sorry. Point taken all the same.

[Anacybele]

Also, dragon laguz should be affected by dragon buffs, naturally, whlie bird laguz get flier buffs. Beasts would get their own buffs in Hone Beasts or Fortify Beasts and so on.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Xenomata said:

I cannot see how "Tackling" and "Clawing" can be affiliated with colors, sorry. Point taken all the same.

Swords are versatile, and their generally close center of mass makes them quick to respond to the opponent's actions. Lances have greater reach and let you safely hit the opponent without putting yourself at risk. Axes are heavy and hit really, really hard, but are slow and force you to commit to your actions.

If the Tellius magic effectiveness didn't exist

• Tigers and Lions would be "axes" since they can use their weight to brute force their way through the opponent.
• Cats would be "swords" since they are nimble and able to use their speed to maneuver around the opponent.
• Birds would be "lances" since they can quickly move in and out of the opponent's reach.
• Dragons would be whatever color comes out their mouth when they puke lasers.

[Xenomata]

14 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Also, dragon laguz should be affected by dragon buffs, naturally, whlie bird laguz get flier buffs. Beasts would get their own buffs in Hone Beasts or Fortify Beasts and so on.

That doesn't seem fair IMO. It'd make sense to just have "Hone Shapeshifter" buffs, maybe even merge them into Dragon buffs to just have an entire category of units who use breaths and stones to battle, with all breaths inheritable by magic users and all stones by physical users regardless of color (as breaths currently work).

 

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Swords are versatile, and their generally close center of mass makes them quick to respond to the opponent's actions. Lances have greater reach and let you safely hit the opponent without putting yourself at risk. Axes are heavy and hit really, really hard, but are slow and force you to commit to your actions.

If the Tellius magic effectiveness didn't exist

• Tigers and Lions would be "axes" since they can use their weight to brute force their way through the opponent.
• Cats would be "swords" since they are nimble and able to use their speed to maneuver around the opponent.
• Birds would be "lances" since they can quickly move in and out of the opponent's reach.
• Dragons would be whatever color comes out their mouth when they puke lasers.

Got it.

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Xenomata said:

That doesn't seem fair IMO. It'd make sense to just have "Hone Shapeshifter" buffs, maybe even merge them into Dragon buffs to just have an entire category of units who use breaths and stones to battle, with all breaths inheritable by magic users and all stones by physical users regardless of color (as breaths currently work).

Why isn't it fair? It wouldn't make sense for bird laguz not to be able to use the effects of Fortify/Hone/Goad Fliers. They ARE fliers and are even weak to bows just as Pegasi and wyverns are.

Same with dragon laguz and Fortify Dragons. They are dragons just like manaketes.

Also, "Hone Shapeshifter" does not sound as nice as "Hone Beasts."

[Xenomata]

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Why isn't it fair? It wouldn't make sense for bird laguz not to be able to use the effects of Fortify/Hone/Goad Fliers. They ARE fliers and are even weak to bows just as Pegasi and wyverns are.

Same with dragon laguz and Fortify Dragons. They are dragons just like manaketes.

Also, "Hone Shapeshifter" does not sound as nice as "Hone Beasts."

I'll repeat, all I know about the laguz comes from skimming the FE wiki. I have never used a Laguz unit in my life, only Taguel, Kitsune, and Wolfsegner.

[Anacybele]

Just now, Xenomata said:

I'll repeat, all I know about the laguz comes from skimming the FE wiki. I have never used a Laguz unit in my life, only Taguel, Kitsune, and Wolfsegner.

You didn't originally tell me you never played Tellius, so I couldn't have known that. Still, okay then.

[Hilda]

Can we just fix Dagger users first before we throw in another class XD?

EDIT: oh and healers

Edited September 18, 2017 by Hilda

[LuxSpes]

The way I see it is kind of similar to how @Ice Dragon presented it

I'd consider the Beast Laguz and 3DS beast shifters as either cavalry or infantry units and the specific colors would be:

• Cats and Kitsune as red
• Wolves and Taguel as blue
• Lion, Tigers and Wolfskin as green

For the Birds, who'd obviously be flying unit, I'd imagine the colors would be :

• Ravens as red
• Hawks as blue
• Herons as colorless

And for the dragon laguz :

• Red dragons as red (duh)
• White dragons as green
• Black dragons as blue

I'd imagine they'd all be infantry as well. Though I'd like to see Dheginsea as an armored breath user because the BST boost armored units have would help him emulate how broken his stats were in RD.

[Tenzen12]

Yeah dragon language are just dragons, get hurt by falcons and can inherit bresths, bird are fliers with two range movement,  access to buffs and weaknesses to bows. Beast laguz would be standard  infantry with own version of buff. 

Well already have everything  necessary for implementing laguz units. 

[LuxSpes]

22 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Yeah dragon language are just dragons, get hurt by falcons and can inherit bresths, bird are fliers with two range movement,  access to buffs and weaknesses to bows. Beast laguz would be standard  infantry with own version of buff. 

Well already have everything  necessary for implementing laguz units. 

The one thing we don't have are the weapons for the birds and beast laguz. They'd need to create Claw, Fang, Beak and Talon weapons.

[Ice Dragon]

As for some actual critique of the opening post. Because there's a lot to say.

 

5 hours ago, Yexin said:

weak to fire magic, etc.

Makes more sense to just give them colors, as discussed above. That's kind of the point of colors.

 

5 hours ago, Yexin said:

RES: 10

The lowest possible 5-star level 40 neutral stat is 13, which comes from a base stat of 3 and a growth rate of 25%.

 

5 hours ago, Yexin said:

Raw Rating: 145

Melee cavalry is in the 153-155 range. Melee infantry is in the 156-158 range.

 

5 hours ago, Yexin said:

Special Skill: Rend (5 turns cooldown, raises ATK by 100% during combat, enemy is paralyzed after combat, only inheritable by cat laguz)

Draconic Aura is a 3-cooldown skill that adds +30% Atk. Dragon Fang is a 4-cooldown skill that adds +50% Atk. A 5-cooldown skill that adds +100% Atk and paralyzes the opponent is absurdly broken.

Actually, paralysis as a status effect is broken to begin with when you're only allowed to field 4 units at a time.

 

5 hours ago, Yexin said:

Raw Rating: 150

Melee flying is in the 156-158 range.

 

5 hours ago, Yexin said:

Weapon: Great Beak, mt: 14, range: 1, Effect: if unit initiates combat, atk/spd/def/res+6; can counterattack ranged attacks (counterattack counts as green magical damage)

This is a weapon with FIVE fully leveled skills (Death Blow 3, Darting Blow 3, Armored Blow 3, Warding Blow 3, Distant Counter) and the same base Atk as a Slaying or cavalry-effective weapon.

Legendary weapons have a maximum of either one second-tier skill or one single-tier skill plus effective damage. CYL weapons have two fully leveled skills.

 

5 hours ago, Yexin said:

Special Skill: Tear (3 turns cooldown, raises ATK by 50% during combat, inflicts spd-5 to the enemy after combat, like seal spd, inheritable only by hawk and raven laguz)

Draconic Aura is a 3-cooldown skill that adds +30% Atk. A 3-cooldown skills that adds +50% Atk and inflicts Seal Spd 2 is also broken.

 

5 hours ago, Yexin said:

Raw Rating: 147

Ranged flying dancer is in the 139-141 range.

 

5 hours ago, Yexin said:

Weapon: Dirge of Ruin, mt: 14, range 2 (magical attack), Effect: if unit initiates combat, atk/spd/def/res+6, deals 6 more damage to the enemy after combat

This is a legendary weapon with FOUR fully leveled skills (Death Blow 3, Darting Blow 3, Armored Blow 3, Warding Blow 3) and one partially leveled skill (Poison Strike 1.7).

[Othin]

Dragon laguz should just be grouped with the Manakete. No need for anything different there. Just give them breaths of any color and let them share breaths with the other dragons.

Beast and bird laguz would need their own weapon type. It'd be boring to make them all colorless, and any way of dividing them up between the colors based on forms would end up unbalanced, so they should just be distributed arbitrarily among the colors like the dragons. Just make red strike, blue strike, and green strike classifications, with weapons being inheritable across the colors like breaths, but with the beast weapons being infantry-locked and the bird weapons being flier-locked so units can't get the wrong one. The new types of shifters from the 3DS games should work the same as beast laguz, since they're just another type of beast shifter.

(I guess if you really wanted, you could assign cat/tiger/lion laguz to one color, hawk/raven laguz to another, and give the third color to wolf laguz and the 3DS ahifters, but that seems strange and unnecessarily limiting.)

Herons are weird since they're not supposed to attack, which means the only way for them to get Exp/SP is healing assists. So I'd say give them their song as their "weapon", which would allow them to get healing assists like staff users, and make it so their "weapon" skill just adds a dance effect to their assist as well. So they can heal and dance simultaneously, but not fight.

Xane can do whatever. He's a whole different issue, since the rest only need set in-battle transformations like Manakete, and I don't really have any thoughts on him beyond that.