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Valmese Soldier

There should be a new class that uses firearms

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1 hour ago, Hylian Air Force said:

How is Camilla "family friendly"? What about her describing the fate of Scarlet in Conquest? Fire Emblem is inherently about war, and only the GBA games got anything lower than E10+, and even though Echoes was a lot more family friendly than Fates, Sonya was a thing, and it was also implied that the bandit leader wanted to rape Silque. I doubt the ESRB would take it to M for guns. CERO and PEGI might, but not the ESRB.

Camilla and Sonya's designs are much more family friendly than firearms: a kid under 8-9 years of age will look at them and most likely not notice anything "weird" or "arousing" or something else about them (at least that's how it was for me and my friends); past that age they might find it a bit "uncomfortable" but... I mean, I'm not strictly talking about ratings because I admit I know nothing about them, I'm saying that realistically portrayed firearms would make much more of a negative impact on a child than scantily clad ladies or cannons. If 8/9-years old me was to see Camilla in a videogame he wouldn't give a damn, but if he was to see realistically portrayed firearms he would probably get scared and lay down the game. I'm using that age threshold because in my experience past 9-years old is when kids start seeing guns as the coolest s**t ever. I can't remember what Camilla says regarding Scarlet, but I'm saying is that while a kid is likely to not even pick up the implications/fanservice behind Camilla/Sonya/Silque dialogue, they WILL find guns and other firearms quite disturbing. But it's just my two cents.

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27 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

a kid is likely to not even pick up the implications/fanservice behind Camilla/Sonya/Silque dialogue, they WILL find guns and other firearms quite disturbing. But it's just my two cents.

I mean, I think we are talking about different types of kids here... I remember playing FE8 as a kid, and I was pretty creeped out by Valter's comments about Eirika, and Gheb's comments about Tana (I still didn't notice any fanservice as a kid, so you are definitely right about that... then again, there was much less sexual fanservice in the GBA games). On the other hand, I wouldn't think twice about shooting people in my other games... maybe we just had very different childhoods. But I have to agree with what has been said, guns wouldn't be considered kid friendly to Nintendo. Of course, that is based upon Nintendo's current actions. They could add guns and set a new precedent.

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17 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

I don't know anything about Metroid, but cannons in Pokemon (and Zelda too I guess) aren't really realistic or portrayed as the terrifying stuff that they were in real life, which would probably be the case with FE; I doubt they're pointed at people in those games as well. Also, (realistic) firearms like musket or rifles or whatever are very different from cannons in that they're much more closely linked to contemporary war and forms of violence; last but not least, cannons are IMHO more "cartoonish", somehow "less rough": they can be used to shoot at walls or ships, they are not necessarily aimed at humans.

While I agree that firearms are a different tone than the cartoonish canons of Zelda or Pokemon, it's not as serious as you make it out to be. I'll bring up Final Fantasy Tactics Advance as a game with a gunner class, and it's extremely kid friendly in tone.

11 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

If 8/9-years old me was to see Camilla in a videogame he wouldn't give a damn, but if he was to see realistically portrayed firearms he would probably get scared and lay down the game.

In the Tellius games alone, a woman nearly gets hanged on screen, a character is impaled on a sword and a sinister figure describes in detail how he would torture and murder two children. This isn't actually a kids game.

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No, I really don't think their should be a firearm class and if they do bring one in it is going to take some getting used to for me. First they'd have to balance it really well, and although some people here have come up with some good ideas, there is no guaranteeing that IS will actually do any of those things. They could mess it up the first time, and then re-balance it in a later game like pair up. The thing about firearms though is that they always feel like a that line that once crossed you can never turn back from. I don't understand why the majority of people are so eager to have them in the game either. Can they work? Yeah, but can someone explain why FE needs them? I really am curious why everybody wants them so much.

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I've never been a big fan of guns in this series. Granted, I do play Heroes, but that's okay because you never seen the main character. That much.

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1 hour ago, YingofDarkness said:

I really am curious why everybody wants them so much

I wouldn't ask for them as a permanent element of the series, just like I wouldn't expect or want Laguz to be in every game. Nothing wrong with a little variety, no?

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2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I wouldn't ask for them as a permanent element of the series, just like I wouldn't expect or want Laguz to be in every game. Nothing wrong with a little variety, no?

Not true. Some would say that the variety added to Awakening and Fates doesn't add to the game, and more often detracts.

At some point you become Disgaea, and that game is a total mess as far as game play goes. And they don't do much to change it each iteration. There's simply way too much going on with Disgaea to make a well balanced, engaging strategy game. 

Edited by Slumber

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21 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Not true. Some would say that the variety added to Awakening and Fates doesn't add to the game, and more often detracts.

At some point you become Disgaea, and that game is a total mess as far as game play goes. And they don't do much to change it each iteration. There's simply way too much going on with Disgaea to make a well balanced, engaging strategy game. 

You're taking my original point "Maybe it would be a fun addition. It's not like all future games have to feature guns", and turning it into "Any kind of variety is good. Just keep adding more crazy shit to Fire Emblem!" And I don't know why.

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27 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

You're taking my original point "Maybe it would be a fun addition. It's not like all future games have to feature guns", and turning it into "Any kind of variety is good. Just keep adding more crazy shit to Fire Emblem!" And I don't know why.

No, I took your point of

2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Nothing wrong with a little variety, no?

and made the point of

51 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Not true. Some would say that the variety added to Awakening and Fates doesn't add to the game, and more often detracts.

I did take it a bit further and implied it was a slippery slope, but that was more so I could bring in an example.

Fire Emblem doesn't lack variety as is. Pretty much each generation of FE games is vastly different from the last, and it manages to do this without drastically changing the core of the games. Adding fire arms, I believe would drastically change the core of the game it was in. And not in a way like Laguz. We've had units LIKE Laguz since the very first FE game(With Bantu, Tiki, etc). Laguz weren't a massive stretch.

Also, messing with the core weapon triangle as it has been since FE4 usually doesn't work out too well, magic aside. The first time we got a "new" weapon class was in FE9/10 with knives, and they failed to feel substantial. Fates took it a step further and made it feel too substantial, with Hidden Weapons effectively being knives. As good as Fates' gameplay is, making a whole other weapon triangle with bows, magic and hidden weapons, really just felt clunky to me and didn't help the game at all, once again just hurting the core of the gameplay instead.

Adding firearms would come out of nowhere AND likely mess with the weapon triangle.

Edited by Slumber

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48 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Fire Emblem doesn't lack variety as is. Pretty much each generation of FE games is vastly different from the last, and it manages to do this without drastically changing the core of the games. Adding fire arms, I believe would drastically change the core of the game it was in. And not in a way like Laguz. We've had units LIKE Laguz since the very first FE game(With Bantu, Tiki, etc). Laguz weren't a massive stretch

This is just silly. You say that we already filled our variety quota and we mustn't try anything "too different". Laguz have a distinct transformation mechanic and some could argue that non-dragon shapeshifters are very un-Fire Emblem. Cat girls in Fire Emblem? Get that weaboo shit out of here! /s

48 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Adding firearms would come out of nowhere AND likely mess with the weapon triangle.

Everything "comes out of nowhere" until it's made.

If you want a story reason, it's a traditional FE setting but technology is advancing it only took 10,000 years of feudalism to figure out and some societies are trying out new things to get ahead.

Your paranoia about the weapon triangle being messed up is unfounded. Maybe it would be flawed, or maybe it would be amazing. You'd just have to wait and see.

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1 hour ago, Slumber said:

As good as Fates' gameplay is, making a whole other weapon triangle with bows, magic and hidden weapons, really just felt clunky to me and didn't help the game at all, once again just hurting the core of the gameplay instead.

I think you're sort of intentionally misinterpreting NekoKnight's post, but this response is nothing but your own personal opinion. Too many cooks spoil the broth, sure, but I found hidden weapons to be neatly incorporated in Fates barring some balancing issues, which is not a new problem in the series.

If I were to make a choice between adding guns to the series in a way that fits nicely with the narrative or another blue-haired lord getting a legendary sword to defeat this week's evil dragon/god and their cult underlings, I'd choose the former in a heartbeat.

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4 minutes ago, Thane said:

I think you're sort of intentionally misinterpreting NekoKnight's post, but this response is nothing but your own personal opinion. Too many cooks spoil the broth, sure, but I found hidden weapons to be neatly incorporated in Fates barring some balancing issues, which is not a new problem in the series.

If I were to make a choice between adding guns to the series in a way that fits nicely with the narrative or another blue-haired lord getting a legendary sword to defeat this week's evil dragon/god and their cult underlings, I'd choose the former in a heartbeat.

Now you're doing the same thing you said I was doing. I made it pretty clear that my feelings on Hidden Weapons were MY opinions, and now you're basically concocting an argument of "There should be guns" and "The games should be the exact same".

I don't want blue haired noble lords anymore either.

I just think that of all things, adding more weapons isn't what the series needs for variety or to stay fresh. Especially not guns.

Edited by Slumber

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Just now, Slumber said:

Now you're doing the same thing you said I was doing. I made it pretty clear that my feelings on Hidden Weapons were MY opinions, and now you're basically concocting the argument to "There should be guns" and "The games should be the exact same".

I don't want blue haired noble lords anymore either.

I just think that of all things, adding more weapons isn't what the series needs for variety or to stay fresh. Especially not guns.

Hey, there is a FE4 hack that has pink hair Sigurd as your lord, and gun as a weapon type.

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2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Now you're doing the same thing you said I was doing. I made it pretty clear that my feelings on Hidden Weapons were MY opinions, and now you're basically concocting an argument of "There should be guns" and "The games should be the exact same".

Could've fooled me. 

The interesting thing about firearms is that you can move on to tell stories that are far more different than the ones we've had so far, which is sorely needed. The idea that the new is pushing away the old, technological differences between kingdoms which lead to the rise and fall of empires...I think the narrative could benefit from a curveball like this. Now, it's entirely possible to write about these things without guns, but it needs to have a tangible presence in the gameplay as well.

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16 minutes ago, Thane said:

If I were to make a choice between adding guns to the series in a way that fits nicely with the narrative or another blue-haired lord getting a legendary sword to defeat this week's evil dragon/god and their cult underlings, I'd choose the former in a heartbeat.

But I like blue-haired lords with legendary swords defeating evil dragons/evil gods/evil dragon gods more than I like adding guns to the series:(

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7 minutes ago, Thane said:

Could've fooled me.

 

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

Fates took it a step further and made it feel too substantial, with Hidden Weapons effectively being knives. As good as Fates' gameplay is, making a whole other weapon triangle with bows, magic and hidden weapons, really just felt clunky to me and didn't help the game at all, once again just hurting the core of the gameplay instead.

I don't know what more you want.

Do I need to say "In my opinion" after every sentence and pause within a sentence?

7 minutes ago, Thane said:

The interesting thing about firearms is that you can move on to tell stories that are far more different than the ones we've had so far, which is sorely needed. The idea that the new is pushing away the old, technological differences between kingdoms which lead to the rise and fall of empires...I think the narrative could benefit from a curveball like this. Now, it's entirely possible to write about these things without guns, but it needs to have a tangible presence in the gameplay as well.

This is a franchise with magic. You could easily do the same story with things that are already in the franchise, only substitute out "Technologically advanced kingdom" with "Magically adept kingdom". Nearly all major threats already are mages, it wouldn't be a huge jump to just have a kingdom of powerful mages.

You could argue that it'd make the gameplay to repetitive, having to fight nothing but mages, but the same problem occurs with the idea of a technologically advanced kingdom. You'd constantly be fighting guys with guns instead, unless you have VASTLY different unit types for the enemies, which is something I don't think I would enjoy very much. In my opinion. Me. I wouldn't like it very much.

Edited by Slumber

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2 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

But I like blue-haired lords with legendary swords defeating evil dragons/evil gods/evil dragon gods more than I like adding guns to the series:(

Then I'm afraid we can't be friends.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are so, so much left to explore in the medieval Fire Emblem setting; the problem is that I feel that is rarely done, and the stories and themes are often very simple. I don't want a grimdark Fire Emblem, but I feel like some heavier, more personal themes and stories would benefit the series greatly.

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1 minute ago, Thane said:

Don't get me wrong, I think there are so, so much left to explore in the medieval Fire Emblem setting; the problem is that I feel that is rarely done, and the stories and themes are often very simple. I don't want a grimdark Fire Emblem, but I feel like some heavier, more personal themes and stories would benefit the series greatly.

Doesn’t really necessitate guns. If the writes can’t write the story well without guns, addition of guns wouldn’t magically improve anything.

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1 minute ago, Vaximillian said:

Doesn’t really necessitate guns. If the writes can’t write the story well without guns, addition of guns wouldn’t magically improve anything.

Oh I know, I'm merely discussing possibilities here. Who knows, we might end up with another Shadow the Hedgehog. Technological advances would make for an interesting twist, however, and a different approach that could help form a more cohesive narrative.

Edited by Thane

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Just now, Thane said:

Oh I know, I'm merely discussing possibilities here. Who knows, we might end up with another Shadow the Hedgehog.

I’m not knowledged about the Sonic-verse; edgy for the sake of edgy? Grimdark for the sake of grimdark?

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Just now, Vaximillian said:

I’m not knowledged about the Sonic-verse; edgy for the sake of edgy? Grimdark for the sake of grimdark?

Neither am I. I just know it's a mutated hedgehog that can believe it's a robot, drives around on a motorcycle even though it can run faster and shoots with a lot of oversized guns as heavy metal plays.

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2 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

I’m not knowledged about the Sonic-verse; edgy for the sake of edgy? Grimdark for the sake of grimdark?

Both. Shadow rode around on a motorcycle and killed people with guns, and the game had a kind of karma system that dictated the plot. It was really dumb(Sadly not much dumber than typical Sonic stuff of the time).

Edited by Slumber

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21 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

CERO and PEGI might, but not the ESRB.

European here.

It'd likely get 16 at most, especially if it doesn't go for blood (which is not likely anyway). The only titles rated 18 on PEGI's website (might not be an exhaustive list) are one of the RE titles, the Snake Eater remake and the Attack on Titan game. I doubt FE would go in a direction that require it to be rated similarly.

As for if it should, I know I'd be alright with their addition. I think it's more the issue of how they're introduced and if they can fit the setting.

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On 9/21/2017 at 9:39 PM, Hylian Air Force said:

I think if they were added, they would have to be to armor what arrows are to fliers. Guns were THE great equalizer in warfare. Also, any class that uses firearms would have to have terrible skill, as marksmanship with old guns like how I see them is poor as well as a crapshoot.

I like that a lot, actually. A ranged weapon that works on armor would add a bit more strategy and consideration. Longbows and/or war bows could also fill that niche if what I've heard about then is correct.

Now that there's three ranged weapons, maybe we could also have a ranged triangle between bows, guns and magic. Something like bows -> magic -> guns -> bows

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