Is FE 7's story really that bad?

[UNLEASH IT]

The worst thing about FE7's story for me was when Brammimond revived Ninian before the final chapter.  To add insult to injury, Eliwood and co. would've most likely died if it wasn't for that asspull since Ninian immediately killed 2 of the 3 dragons that Nergal summoned while severely weakening the third.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Zephiel is an order of magnitude more interesting than Hardin, and that goes a long way to making Binding Blade not bottom-tier for story in the series. For all that I'll agree it doesn't have much else. World-building is kinda okay?

I don't see the problem with Sacred Stones' story at all, it always felt to me like the most complete game of the GBA games narratively, mostly owing to the Eirika/Ephraim/Lyon emotional core of the game being solid.

FE7's story problems mostly stem from the Black Fang being a terrible and unbelievable antagonist force, Nergal somehow being even worse on both fronts, and the playable of the cast not really being anything special. I have a somewhat higher view of the supporting cast than Thane does (I think Matthew is solidly done for instance) but he doesn't make up for how Ninian is a walking plot device or the fact that the main lords are rather dull and two of them don't have much stake in the story (people bring up Lyn all the time for this, but Hector's not really much better). I think the political intrigue of the game had promise (Ephidel/Darin, Bern) but once it's a thousand-man band of assassins, zombies, and an evil-for-the-sake-of-it sorcerer, the game feels hollow.

My problems with Sacred Stones' story stem from the sheer amount of stupidity (Lyon's willing to screw around with an artifact that houses the soul of the greatest enemy of humanity, which is stupid enough... But for Eirika to see nothing wrong with this??? Really??? Then you have the fact that Eirika spends part of the game wondering why would Grado suddenly attack Renais... which it's revealed she should've known rather late in the game [as a result, her not knowing either comes off as a huge contrivance or makes her look like a complete idiot, which I think she is, albeit for other reasons, but the fact remains that this reflects poorly on her and the story]. As for Ephraim, he's not nearly as bad off as either of the other two, but he still has his issues; I find it hard to agree with this emotional core being "solid" when 2/3 of said core are idiots, one of whom is also a half-assed attempt at a tragic villain). It doesn't help that I find it hard to care about most of the cast... That I might be able to let slide if the story was any good, but two of the three characters the story revolves around are morons, which ensures it isn't.

TLDR version: it being a result of stupidity of the highest order makes Sacred Stones' plot a joke.

As for FE6, a more interesting villain alone isn't enough to make up for its story being a copypasta.

[ping]

I don't mean to attack or offend anyone, but it's kind of funny how like half of the answers to a thread about the quality of FE7's story are basically "Let me tell you how bad these unrelated FE games are". FE_fandom.txt (or any_fandom.txt, really), I suppose.

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

As for Karel, he's the Sword Demon, it's supposed to be radical contrast with his saintly old FE6 self.

I usually dislike overly edgy characters, but this is why I really appreciate Karel as a whole. I find seeing Karel both as the "demon" in FE7 and the "saint" in FE6 fascinating, since he shows some awareness of his broken mind in FE7 (for example when he refuses to train Guy because he would "have to" fight and kill him if Guy becomes any stronger, in his A support with Lucius, or in the support chain with Karla), as well as clear discomfort if his support partners praise him or ask him about the "way of the sword" in FE6. It makes him a lot more interesting to me than the other "edgy" characters in the series, like Raven, Rutger, Volke, or Nabarl himself.

1 hour ago, UNLEASH IT said:

The worst thing about FE7's story for me was when Brammimond revived Ninian before the final chapter.  To add insult to injury, Eliwood and co. would've most likely died if it wasn't for that asspull since Ninian immediately killed 2 of the 3 dragons that Nergal summoned while severely weakening the third.

This and the fact that the fire dragons are only presented as mindless monsters on a rampage bothers me about the ending of FE7. They're concious beings, but the only thing we get in that direction is one line of Ninian expressing regret (“That’s enough. I’m sorry… This is not your fault… …I’m sorry.”). It really feels like a missed opportunity, especially since one of the recurring themes in FE7 is the hope that the peaceful coexistence in Arcadia is a sign that there does not have to be war between dragons and humans should the former return to Elibe at some point.

[Thane]

Speaking of the ending, wasn't Nergal low on quintessence when he opened the portal? Also, I don't believe he had either Nils or Ninian in captivity at that point, right? Wasn't that the only thing holding him back, or was I missing something? 

While Nergal and the Black Fang's incompetence are bigger turn-offs, I found the whole quintessence thing to be such a bizarre concept. Nergal gets invisible, unquantifiable energy that allows him to do whatever the plot requires him to do from killing people off screen. Not only is it the most boring modus operandi ever, it's also impossible to gauge what kind of threat he is - and not in a good way - because all we have to go on are his own comments about how much juice he's got left.

[Armagon]

4 hours ago, UNLEASH IT said:

The worst thing about FE7's story for me was when Brammimond revived Ninian before the final chapter.  To add insult to injury, Eliwood and co. would've most likely died if it wasn't for that asspull since Ninian immediately killed 2 of the 3 dragons that Nergal summoned while severely weakening the third.

Yeah, the Ninian ressurection part was dumb. Resurrection has happened before with Celica and Lewyn, but the difference there is that Valentia (and by extension, Archanea) and Jugdral have established that resurrection magic exists, with the revival springs in Valentia, Aum Staff in Archanea, and Valkyrie Staff in Jugdral.

 

35 minutes ago, Thane said:

Speaking of the ending, wasn't Nergal low on quintessence when he opened the portal? Also, I don't believe he had either Nils or Ninian in captivity at that point, right? Wasn't that the only thing holding him back, or was I missing something?

Nergal opened the portal because the plot demanded it. I don't remember the exact details but all i know is that he shouldn't have been able to open the portal.

1 hour ago, Thane said:

I found the whole quintessence thing to be such a bizarre concept. Nergal gets invisible, unquantifiable energy that allows him to do whatever the plot requires him to do from killing people off screen. Not only is it the most boring modus operandi ever, it's also impossible to gauge what kind of threat he is - and not in a good way - because all we have to go on are his own comments about how much juice he's got left.

Regarding quintessence, it's something that was first mentioned in FE4. It's basically used as an explanation as to why the Valkyrie Staff (and i suppose by extension, Archanea's Aum Staff and Valentia's revival springs) could revive people. Specifically, it can only revive people who have enough quintessence, which seems to diminish over time......i think. Claud was interrupted when he was explaining how it works so we'll never fully know but the idea of a person's quintessence diminishing over time after their death makes the most sense. I suppose that explanation could also be used to explain Ninian's revival. 

 

Now, regarding Nergal, yeah, quintessence is dumb. Nergal himself as a character is fine, and as a villain, he certainly fits that role. However, because of quintessence, he suffers from shounen anime villain syndrome, where the plot can't decide just how powerful he is. Sometimes, he's so strong that he could easily wipe out the protagonists, INCLUDING Athos. Other times, he can be wounded by Elbert severely enough to cause him to go into hiding. Elbert used a regualr old knife btw.

 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Regarding the topic, i don't believe i've answered yet, but i think the story is fine. It has some issues, like Nergal's power levels and Ninian ex machina, but the story for the most part is fine. I like the more personal story, something which really hasn't been done in the series. The only other story in the series that had a more personal approach was Thracia 776.

I like the characters of FE7 more than the story itself though. To me, the characters of a story are more important than the story itself, which is why FE7 is on my Top 5 FE games list.

[bethany81707]

15 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Yeah, the Ninian ressurection part was dumb. Resurrection has happened before with Celica and Lewyn, but the difference there is that Valentia (and by extension, Archanea) and Jugdral have established that resurrection magic exists, with the revival springs in Valentia, Aum Staff in Archanea, and Valkyrie Staff in Jugdral.

 

Celica, I'll give you. But I don't think Lewyn was the same kind of resurrection magic... I'd describe it more as Holsety wearing him like a suit.

[Tenzen12]

2 hours ago, Thane said:

Speaking of the ending, wasn't Nergal low on quintessence when he opened the portal? Also, I don't believe he had either Nils or Ninian in captivity at that point, right? Wasn't that the only thing holding him back, or was I missing something? 

While Nergal and the Black Fang's incompetence are bigger turn-offs, I found the whole quintessence thing to be such a bizarre concept. Nergal gets invisible, unquantifiable energy that allows him to do whatever the plot requires him to do from killing people off screen. Not only is it the most boring modus operandi ever, it's also impossible to gauge what kind of threat he is - and not in a good way - because all we have to go on are his own comments about how much juice he's got left.

He didn't need neither Nils nor Ninian open gate. He need them control summoned dragons. As he was about to die he just decided go out with bang and not care about consequences. 

[Thane]

2 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

He didn't need neither Nils nor Ninian open gate. He need them control summoned dragons. As he was about to die he just decided go out with bang and not care about consequences. 

I see.

But what about the low quintessence? Also, then why did Ursula leave in chapter 7x to take care of other business when they were heading right towards her? Ow, my head...

[Tenzen12]

Would say more  quintessence, simply means more dragons, (more then three at least) getting through. But don't quote me on that. 

[Harvey]

50 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Yeah, the Ninian ressurection part was dumb. Resurrection has happened before with Celica and Lewyn, but the difference there is that Valentia (and by extension, Archanea) and Jugdral have established that resurrection magic exists, with the revival springs in Valentia, Aum Staff in Archanea, and Valkyrie Staff in Jugdral.

 

Uh...no. Celica didn't really do much of impact at the end. Only reason that she's relevant is because she's Alm's lover that's it. So by your logic, her ressurection is also kinda dumb. Its just the same thing for Ninian as well. Not bashing at SoV's plot here but her role in the plot is somewhat of a pain to deal with imo.

And gameplay wise, since Eliwood supports Ninian, how can they make it that all of a sudden, she gets killed and nothing between them happens? If she didn't have any supports, then I can agree but the thing is, she has them and even though its so little, the conversations are there.

Jugdral makes the most sense since Lewyn is more or less a "Reborn"  of himself thus not remembering much of his past.

 

 

[ping]

Huh?

58 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Yeah, the Ninian ressurection part was dumb. Resurrection has happened before with Celica and Lewyn, but the difference there is that Valentia (and by extension, Archanea) and Jugdral have established that resurrection magic exists, with the revival springs in Valentia, Aum Staff in Archanea, and Valkyrie Staff in Jugdral.

Armagon was criticizing that resurrection magic hasn't even been mentioned at any point prior to Bramimond and Ninian's Deus Ex Machina moment, which isn't true for Akaneia/Valentia and Jugdral.

[Armagon]

8 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Uh...no. Celica didn't really do much of impact at the end. Only reason that she's relevant is because she's Alm's lover that's it. So by your logic, her ressurection is also kinda dumb. Its just the same thing for Ninian as well. Not bashing at SoV's plot here but her role in the plot is somewhat of a pain to deal with imo.

I'm not talking about Celica's role in the plot. I'm talking about whether or not her resurrection makes sense. In Celica's case, it does, as resurrection magic is an established thing in that world. In Ninian's case, it doesn't, because it came out of nowhere.

9 minutes ago, Harvey said:

And gameplay wise, since Eliwood supports Ninian, how can they make it that all of a sudden, she gets killed and nothing between them happens? If she didn't have any supports, then I can agree but the thing is, she has them and even though its so little, the conversations are there.

Having Supports does not save you from dying. Look at Fates. Kaze has Supports but if his plot death happens in Birthright (which can be avoided), then he dies and that's it. Azura has Supports but she dies at the end of Birthright and Conquest. Then there's perma-death.

Honestly, if Ninian had stayed dead, it would've added more of an emotional impact. Not everything deserves a happy ending. I love Eliwood x Ninian but there's no denying that Ninian's resurrection was dumb and there would've been a bigger emotional impact if she had stayed dead.

[Tenzen12]

29 minutes ago, ping said:

Huh?

Armagon was criticizing that resurrection magic hasn't even been mentioned at any point prior to Bramimond and Ninian's Deus Ex Machina moment, which isn't true for Akaneia/Valentia and Jugdral.

Well, you could argue, Nergal was using quintessence to "resuscitate"  people for quite while. It should be same principle. 

I don't like that part myself, but it's not like it came completely from left field. 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Tenzen12

[Etrurian emperor]

20 hours ago, Anacybele said:

. PoR (and RD to a bit of a lesser extent) is pretty much the only game in the series that deals with a bunch of real world issues here. Like I said, racism, slavery, some oppression of the lower class by the upper classes, bad/corrupt government officials

Actually Elibe delves into those subjects too. All those things listed are the defining features of the kingdom of Etruria. Its government is filled with corrupt officials and they enslave the citizens of the western island to work them to death in the mines.

There's racism too. The nomads of Sacea are discriminated against. Its not that big a plot point since its a minor nation but it exist. 

You could argue Tellius deals with class oppression by just demonizing the noble class and by having Ike repeatedly condem them long after he meets a sizable amount of benevolent nobles. 

[Tenzen12]

Benignon is basically copy paste of Ertruria (which probably isn't first of it's kind either), with similiar issues across the board. Pretty much anything FE9-10 did, was done before at some point. One can argure they are doing best job, but I doubt there will ever be consensus that would aknowledge it.

[Etrurian emperor]

Since the topic has drifted to Sacred stones for a little bit I'll just chime in on that.

I think the story is okay but its really brought down by a lack of worldbuilding and scope. Its countries aren't developed at all. What do we know about Renais apart from that its the standard good guy nation? What's there to tell Renais apart from Frelia, that other nation that's manly there as the good guy nation. Rausten is a theocracy....and what else? Jehena might be a bit of a cross between Silesia and Illia but that's kinda it.

And Grado feels quite small for a conquering empire since its get knocked out of the running quite earlier by Ephraim. Its also not really implied where Ephraim even gets the soldiers to do that. Ike gets loaned soldiers from Begnion and joins up with Gallia and the Crimean resistance, Roy has Etruria and Lycia while Eliwood neither fights nor possesses a proper army. Where does Ephraim pull his troops from? Just Frellia which already invades Carcino in Eirika's route? It sounds small but I think it just makes Grado come off as wimps.

The demon king and his monsters also feel kinda generic and so I can't feel any weight behind anything he does. Lyon's nice though. Like Nergal he's a more personal villain but he's set apart by being a more dramatic former friend sort of villain rather then the hostility of Nergal. He also lacks Nergal's often criticized habbit of talking to the heroes and not doing much against them. The Grado generals are also a varied and colorful bunch.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Etrurian emperor

[ping]

47 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Well, you could argue, Nergal was using quintessence to "resuscitate"  people for quite while. It should be same principle. 

I don't like that part myself, but it's not like it came completely from left field. 

The way I understand it, morphs are explicitly not human. Nergal did not -resurrect- anyone before the final chapter, but chose to give the morphs "the abilities and appearances of the people whose essences [he] used to craft them" (this is one of Nergal's lines) in order to mess with Eliwood.

There is, however, some talk about the matter in Renault and Canas's A support - basically, Renault used to help Nergal in his research hoping that he could bring back a friend who was killed in battle. Their support also touches the question whether or not morphs have souls, leaning towards "yes". And Sophia (pride, disgust, fear), Limstella (regret), and Kishuna (sadness) do show emotions one way or another. So I suppose if you know all the little details of the game, the scene really doesn't come out of thin air, although the possibility of resurrection is really only mentioned in a rather obscure support chain - not the greatest place to hide such a crucial plot point, I'd say.

And, although this hasn't been part of the argument - resurrections obviously cheapen any kind of death scene. But I'll let Dragon Ball Abridged explain that point. ;)

[Acacia Sgt]

25 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

And Grado feels quite small for a conquering empire since its get knocked out of the running quite earlier by Ephraim. Its also not really implied where Ephraim even gets the soldiers to do that. Ike gets loaned soldiers from Begnion and joins up with Gallia and the Crimean resistance, Roy has Etruria and Lycia while Eliwood neither fights nor possesses a proper army. Where does Ephraim pull his troops from? Just Frellia which already invades Carcino in Eirika's route? It sounds small but I think it just makes Grado come off as wimps.

To be fair, it was stated Freila and Grado were fighting while Eirika was searching for Ephraim. Afterwards it's stated Freila won (in the sense they repelled a Grado invasion into Freila), so the forces of both countries had already taken a hit before Ephraim's route began. There's also the fact that Grado didn't had all its soldiers in the Freilan frontline. It had split them off, with a few going to help the Carcino rebels, and to invade Jehanna. Not to mention, the occupation forces at Renais. So the way I see it, after the initial Freila-Grado battle, Grado simply stretched itself thin. Hence its not so tardy downfall. Then again, the remmant forces do seem to last quite a bit afterwards.

And actually, Freila does not invade Carcino.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Etrurian emperor]

4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

To be fair, it was stated Freila and Grado were fighting while Eirika was searching for Ephraim. Afterwards it's stated Freila won (in the sense they repelled a Grado invasion into Freila), so the forces of both countries had already taken a hit before Ephraim's route began. There's also the fact that Grado didn't had all its soldiers in the Freilan frontline. It had split them off, with a few going to help the Carcino rebels, and to invade Jehanna. Not to mention, the occupation forces at Renais. So the way I see it, after the initial Freila-Grado battle, Grado simply stretched itself thin. Hence its not so tardy downfall. Then again, the remmant forces do seem to last quite a bit afterwards.

And actually, Freila does not invade Carcino.

Stretching to thin sounds fair enough. But I definitely recall a Pegasus rider telling Innes just that and that they are driving Pablo's troops away wherever they find them.

[Acacia Sgt]

11 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Stretching to thin sounds fair enough. But I definitely recall a Pegasus rider telling Innes just that and that they are driving Pablo's troops away wherever they find them.

Oh, I might have forgotten that. Either way, compared to the force invading Grado, it's not bound to be that big. Considering they'd also have the support of the non-rebelling forces of Carcino.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Stretching to thin sounds fair enough. But I definitely recall a Pegasus rider telling Innes just that and that they are driving Pablo's troops away wherever they find them.

It helps to remember who was behind the Frelia invasion. Lyon. Why? To smash the Sacred Stone of Frelia so the Demon King can be more easily resurrected. Once that was done, there was no longer a need to worry about what Frelia does, since Grado has already had its stone smashed, and Caellach and Riev were working gradually in far away Rausten and Jehanna, which Frelia couldn't reach. The only thing that Frelia could have done which it didn't do was restore order in Renais, since they needed to keep it under Orson's misrule until the Twins were caught and the SS there smashed.

I'll agree SS needed more world building, and we don't even get the names of 3 of the 5 legendary heroes.

 

7 hours ago, Thane said:

Speaking of the ending, wasn't Nergal low on quintessence when he opened the portal? Also, I don't believe he had either Nils or Ninian in captivity at that point, right? Wasn't that the only thing holding him back, or was I missing something?

I found these line in Hector C31:

Spoiler

Nergal:
“The dragon girl… Ninian’s essence. Beautiful… Absolutely beautiful…… With this, I will be able to call dragons whenever I please.” [Question- why didn't he just kill the siblings if all he needed to open the gate was their essence/dragonstone?]

Limstella:
“Shall we begin the process right away?”

Nergal:
“No, I lost some quintessence from the injuries I took from Athos [and yet he laughed them off when he got Forblazed]. To summon the numbers I need, I must have more essence. One must be fully prepared when dealing with dragons. If they wrested free from my control and killed me, all would be for naught.”

Limstella:
“I fear to report… that the quintessence from the Black Fang has all been used. Where shall the next harvest come from?”

Nergal:
“Heh heh heh… All the materials we need are heading this way even now.”

4 hours ago, Thane said:

Also, then why did Ursula leave in chapter 7x to take care of other business when they were heading right towards her? Ow, my head...

Here:

Spoiler

Beyard:
“We’ve word that the entire group is headed this way, with the brats in tow.”

???:
“They’re coming here? Why would they do that?”

Beyard:
“They may well be after this ring… It’s a rare piece. We take it from the girl. It was a stroke of luck that we did, especially if it brings them to us no.. I’ll grab the whole lot of ’em with this to bait the trap.”

???:
“I see… Very well, I’ll give you another chance. I’ve business elsewhere, but I shall return once it’s finished [what business could be more important than securing the kids?]. You have until sunrise tomorrow. Do you understand?”

Beyard:
“Yes.”

???:
“If you do not have the children when I return… my hand will deal you the fang’s punishment. Remember that. Bear it closely in your mind.”

 

And for the Ninian resurrection, here are the few lines on it:

Spoiler

Athos:
“Bramimond!”

Bramimond:
“……Preparations…took time… …OK. I require everyone’s strength. Gather here the legendary power!”

Eliwood:
“Ah!! This light…”

Hector:
“Uwaa! What… What is it!?”

Lyn:
“Look! There…!”

(Ninian is revived!)

Bramimond:
“Bring her back… Let the dragon girl’s soul be restored.”

I think it can be justified insofar the powers of true mastery over Darkness in the GBA era are mysterious and beyond complete understanding.

Eliwood:
“Mm… I wonder what convinced him (Bramimond) to release the seals.”

Athos:
“Interesting that… I believe it was darkness. A completely impenetrable darkness, the nature of which is beyond the comprehension of normal men.

[Thane]

1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Spoiler

 

Nergal:
“The dragon girl… Ninian’s essence. Beautiful… Absolutely beautiful…… With this, I will be able to call dragons whenever I please.” [Question- why didn't he just kill the siblings if all he needed to open the gate was their essence/dragonstone?]

Limstella:
“Shall we begin the process right away?”

Nergal:
“No, I lost some quintessence from the injuries I took from Athos [and yet he laughed them off when he got Forblazed]. To summon the numbers I need, I must have more essence. One must be fully prepared when dealing with dragons. If they wrested free from my control and killed me, all would be for naught.”

Limstella:
“I fear to report… that the quintessence from the Black Fang has all been used. Where shall the next harvest come from?”

Nergal:
“Heh heh heh… All the materials we need are heading this way even now.”

 

 

So in other words, Nergal had no plan, was weakened from an injury he laughed off and took even though he could've killed the party if he wanted to as explicitly stated by Athos?

What?

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

???:
“I see… Very well, I’ll give you another chance. I’ve business elsewhere, but I shall return once it’s finished [what business could be more important than securing the kids?]. You have until sunrise tomorrow. Do you understand?”

So Ursula goes against the Black Fang's supposed creed, gives the random mook a second chance and she goes on another mission that essentially can't be more important than the one literally walking towards her? 

[Chconroy]

1 hour ago, Thane said:

So in other words, Nergal had no plan, was weakened from an injury he laughed off and took even though he could've killed the party if he wanted to as explicitly stated by Athos?

I always took that as Nergal bluffing against Athos. It's not like you want your enemies (especially the one who stopped you about 500 years ago) to know that they are capable of wounding you. Seeing as Athos had Forblaze, Eliwood had Durandal, and Hector had Armads (at least in Hector's tale), there were plenty of weapons that were capable of inflicting harm.

[Thane]

3 minutes ago, Chconroy said:

I always took that as Nergal bluffing against Athos. It's not like you want your enemies (especially the one who stopped you about 500 years ago) to know that they are capable of wounding you. Seeing as Athos had Forblaze, Eliwood had Durandal, and Hector had Armads (at least in Hector's tale), there were plenty of weapons that were capable of inflicting harm.

Yet Athos is the one who explicitly states Nergal could've killed them if he wanted to.

[BrightBow]

To draw upon the relevant quote:

Lyn: “If Lord Athos hadn’t erected a barrier when he did… We would have lost both you and Nils……”

Athos: “If he’d truly wished to kill you, even my power could not have saved you.”
 

And when Athos attacked Nergal on their next encounter, he just shrugs it off effortlessly. They even scripted that fight so that Athos would deal far less damage then he should according to the displayed numbers, which further bolsters his claim that even legendary weapons can't really harm him.

Edited September 29, 2017 by BrightBow